Quite right. Crafting magic items is simple business. Roughly akin to dipping chips in tartare sauce. Yeah, not much precision required I suppose. Anyone and everyone can do it.
On magic items, and players wanting to craft something specific, or even find it, they should actually be making checks to see if their character knows of the item, and what its crafting involves/what it looks like and what are its properties, if you are going to purchase it.
Others have put it this way, say a fighter wants not a magic sword, but something really specific, something to give him a certain type of boost, and the player acts like that person knows the general name of it. How does the fighter know of this? How can they even begin to know of this if they don't have the related skills? Verisimilitude attack!
So I can't know what a Lightsaber is, because I'm not a Jedi Knight? Verisimilitude Fail. What kind of check would I make to be able to describe what a Lightsaber is. Do I have to put ranks into "Knowledge: Sci-Fi Movies" to be able to describe to someone (capable of making such an item) what it is I want? Following this line of thought, nothing new would ever be developed, because it never existed previously.
This can come up especially in low magic games. A month ago you were a slightly trained peasant, and now you want potions of haste, boots of speed, some type of cloak and a periapt of what? When did you hear about all these.
These things are heard of the same way we know what a crystal ball, or magic sword, or the One Ring... through tales and folklore. From Bard's stories and books.
In all fairness, PF is generally considered a bad idea if you're specifically looking for a "low magic" game. The game balance system assumes that characters have a certain amount of magic items (read: Wealth By Level") at any given point in their careers.
Exactly good man, it is a perception. Humanoids do not have all around vision, they do not see around them at all times or hear anything that breaks from concealment immediately. But you have to watch your back and be involved in the game. I remember in the old days "strokes beard" when you only got as much info, as you asked for, and you had to be quite active. None of this auto perception business. If players aren't saying they are paying attention, then their role-played character is not paying the height of attention either.
The Perception skill assumes that an adventurer is reasonably paranoid, and aware of their surroundings. In order to not bog down gameplay, facing and the related issues were simplified into a single skill - Perception. If humans were able to see all around them at all times, there would be no need for Perception to be the opposed roll for stealth. It just wouldn't work. Perception gives the stealth character a chance of actually working... because, as you said, you can't be looking in all directions at once.
What an excellent little set of items. I like the idea. Notice it didn't boost stats and helps the group and party communication. Five stars.
And yet, under your system, players would be discouraged from taking characters that can do this, and as such, your game loses out on the possibility of these cool little things.
Is crafting going to aid the characters in-game, or even in-combat? Sure. What's the point of taking it as a class ability (spending a feat) otherwise? But it's also going to do so much more.
I've seen crafting-type characters who, at higher level, go back and gift magical field-plows, or horseshoes of speed, or similar items, to "normal" characters who they forged friendships with at lower levels. Imagine the amount of goodwill a character could receive from something as simple as a +1 scythe for a wheat-farmer.
I understand your complaints with the concept of a crafting character, but I think you're "throwing the baby out with the bath-water" here. There's a lot of good that can come of these abilities, even beyond the obvious combat enhancements.
I haven't forced anyone into the expert class, but if someone spent more time trading, then fighting, and they said they were a swashbuckler, I would be a little incredulous. Same with crafting.
By that logic, every party member shld be forced to take levels in Ranger or HorizonWalker, because adventurers tend to travel more than they fight/castSpells/disableTraps.
So... IRL, every soldier (RL version of Fighter) isn't a soldier, because they don't spend a large enough portion of their time trying to shoot people? I think, IRL, that soldiers spend more time with friends & family, or shopping, than killing people.
I think the opinion you're conveying here is very over-reactive and unreasonable, mainly because you're forgetting alot of important information and blinding yourself to possibilities:
Think about Iron Man, or any other inventor-hero, and ask yourself if casting them in that light is sensible.
Also, ask yourself how arch-mages became arch-mages. Did they all go kill dragons? Or did some of them lock themselves up in their tower, mastering the powers and means to reshape the universe? Also, what about high priests?
I haven't forced anyone into the expert class, but if someone spent more time trading, then fighting, and they said they were a swashbuckler, I would be a little incredulous. Same with crafting.
You can get angry at me if you want Avalon, but this side of dnd isn't its best side. I've never seen a crafter (and I've had to see two of them in recent years) actually have fun with crafting. They do it, they are satisfied, satisfied being the perfect word, but this isn't fun, this is accounting and filling item slots. It's blandness means fun is still a long way off, this isn't having a great combat, pulling through a dungeon, saving a player or npc from doom, having a good laugh or making a great joke at the table, don't confuse stuff-crafting with fun. It isn't. It is the greedy scratching their needs.
2 players not being overjoyed makes it wrong? If they don't like it why didn't you find out why they did not like it, and try to change that part. Now that I think about it they since you claimed earlier they became power hungry they had to enjoy the power that came from it or they would not have continued along that path. Why not ask the players to come here so they can speak for themselves.
What you are saying is they wanted power, the crafting gave it to them. They noticed the power increase, got more powerful, but they don't enjoy it. People don't tend to continue to do things they don't like.
Actually Lathiira, there was a character who was making items for himself and two other players. You could say he was contributing to the party in a sense.....? The cavalier was not impressed while the three of them started discussing what items they wanted. It was an extremely not heroic scene.
It was very sad. It went on for something like an hour. DnD is about villains and heroes. The process of how the party eventually moves to being heroes or villains through their actions. If the hour was spent on killing evil, rescuing damsels in distress or good role-playing, it wouldn't have been a problem. The problem was, that it became Pathfinder: The accounting chronicles.
I can see where 3.5L is coming from and where he is pushing the game towards. Besides, it would be extremely weird to hear a tale being spun about a famous swordsman or knight who had to constantly upgrade his equipment with magic, therefore relying more on the arcane buffs than their actual mastery of swordsmanship.
I don't give players an hour of "shop" time. They get about 15 minutes, and they can also send emails between sessions. Anytime I am not gaming for an hour it becomes an issue. That has nothing to do with crafting, and more to do with unprepared players.
And everyone knows all about the magic items that would be best for them and compliment their skills.
"Guys, guys, stop coddling him. Just be straight. 3.5 Loyalist, you're a horrible GM. Objectively."
I'm horrible, assuming all creatures don't have all round vision.
I'm horrible, been dming for eight years, not sure what number of campaigns I am up to running. They've been so much great fun, and the fun times, I can still talk to my friends/players about them, when we aren't jumping into the latest one of course and rolling some dice. I'm horrible...
So.... the fighter with all his rigorous training, specially took time after training to enrol in knowledge: magic items night classes?
a dm should be taking games away from monotony, sometimes taking some things away from players if they waste others' time.... and apparently if they find a way to do it WITHOUT wasting others' time (crafting while adventuring), you should take it away from them ANYWAY because... why, exactly? Because you don't like players having fun the wrong way?
Once you've decided that crafting needs to be punished whether it takes time or not, you can no longer use time-wasting as your excuse.
Again, I work hard to make sure that my players can have fun exploring whichever aspects of the mechanics and setting of the game they choose, and we have fun. I'm sorry that your players don't have the same opportunities, because certain ways of playing or certain options "feel wrong" to the GM.
It seems the issue is that in "real life" time the players hold the game up, which is what 3.5L should have said in the beginning. Impose a time limit and move one. That way the crafters can craft, and no houserules are needed.
I haven't forced anyone into the expert class, but if someone spent more time trading, then fighting, and they said they were a swashbuckler, I would be a little incredulous. Same with crafting.
You can get angry at me if you want Avalon, but this side of dnd isn't its best side. I've never seen a crafter (and I've had to see two of them in recent years) actually have fun with crafting. They do it, they are satisfied, satisfied being the perfect word, but this isn't fun, this is accounting and filling item slots. It's blandness means fun is still a long way off, this isn't having a great combat, pulling through a dungeon, saving a player or npc from doom, having a good laugh or making a great joke at the table, don't confuse stuff-crafting with fun. It isn't. It is the greedy scratching their needs.
2 players not being overjoyed makes it wrong? If they don't like it why didn't you find out why they did not like it, and try to change that part. Now that I think about it they since you claimed earlier they became power hungry they had to enjoy the power that came from it or they would not have continued along that path. Why not ask the players to come here so they can speak for themselves.
What you are saying is they wanted power, the crafting gave it to them. They noticed the power increase, got more powerful, but they don't enjoy it. People don't tend to continue to do things they don't like.
I think 3.5L is making a self-fulfilling prophecy, regarding crafting-type characters having fun. All the changes required to play a crafter in 3.5L's game result in making it less feasible, and therefore less fun.
Well, it's hard to be anything more than "satisfied" when you're making the character miss out on questing with his/her comrades because they're using their class abilities.I haven't forced anyone into the expert class, but if someone spent more time trading, then fighting, and they said they were a swashbuckler, I would be a little incredulous. Same with crafting.
You can get angry at me if you want Avalon, but this side of dnd isn't its best side. I've never seen a crafter (and I've had to see two of them in recent years) actually have fun with crafting. They do it, they are satisfied, satisfied being the perfect word, but this isn't fun, this is accounting and filling item slots. It's blandness means fun is still a long way off, this isn't having a great combat, pulling through a dungeon, saving a player or npc from doom, having a good laugh or making a great joke at the table, don't confuse stuff-crafting with fun. It isn't. It is the greedy scratching their needs.
+1. The houserule is also an issue here, not crafting if taking up "real life" time is not the culprit. IF 3.5L used the real rules this might not be so much of an issue either.
So 3.5L was the issue "real life" time or your houserule that made them not adventure?
Malignor, the idea that soldiers spend more time shopping, than being a soldier, is an odd one.
So it's like their job right? They rock up for hours each day, might get the end of the week off when not in the field etc, and they have shopped longer, than time on their job?
Venetian militia, maybe...
Hmmm. somewhat true I suppose wraithstrike. The reason why it took so long however was because players were deciding which items too craft among a fair number of possibilities. Unprepared players? Perhaps. But yes, problem created by crafting. Lathiira has outlined a possible solution to this but it is a potential problem crafting creates.
What I meant by meta-gaming, is how do the character know what magic items they need? What to look for? That is a serious specialty in arcana to even know all of the specifics of magic items--all that a party could use and spend their loot on, how to make them.
"Perrin, a Blacksmith Apprentice, turned hero, turned General, forged himself a warhammer while spellcasters gathered around him, adding their magical powers to his work. The end result was the first new magical weapon forged since the Age of Legends."
Notice how this scene, described sparsely here, but with some meaning behind it, differs greatly to, I did it over a few days at the end of the day, as I was camping.
Or, I shut myself away, and because I had some money, now all my spells are harder to save against because of my new headband.
:(
Good suggestions on keeping the boring parts out of the game. But some people, the crafting characters, that can be most of what their vacuous character is, a spellcaster whom turns loot into items. That is what they do, that is what they are.
If you don't like them to know what items to make automatically then require a knowledge arcana check and writeup rules for it. Of course most casters will have it anyway, and make the check, but at least them making the check will add more realism from your PoV.
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I can speak from experience that at least half of my time as a soldier is spent preparing for my mission. The only reason I don't need to shop for my gear myself is I have a whole branch of the military dedicated to equipping me. It would be an entirely different experience if I had to find and purchase my own gear.
I've had a newish player instantly get the distinction between character knowledge and player knowledge. I was most impressed, but then again, he studies psychology.
Now we have all read the dmg, and magic item compendiums, and other sources that discuss these items. Our characters have not, and that is what equalizer is joking about.
By all means, characters should hit up spellcasters in towns to spend loot and buy magic items, but they shouldn't really know the ins and outs of magic items in their world, without a lot of knowledge in this area. To know a lot about a singular item type amongst hundreds of magic items in total, is a high check, not easily made. It's like research in a field, you need to have done the research to know what books are some of the best in the field. You do not know this in the beginning.
And everyone knows all about the magic items that would be best for them and compliment their skills.
In short, yes.
The Fighter is going to grow up listening to tales of King Arthur's Knights of the Round Table.The Barbarian is going to grow up listening to tales of Conan.
The Wizard is going to grow up reading Harry Potter, or hearing tales of Merlin.
The Ranger will grow up listening to tales of Robin Hood, or "Bard the Bowman" from The Hobbit.
... and so on...
The early-growth interests of the children will (usually) determine what classes they end up being as adults. Wizards will want a wand like Harry, or a magic broom. Fighters will hear tales of magical armor and swords. Rangers will think of Bard's "Dragon-Slaying" arrows...
In short, they'll get the ideas for these items from the same places that the creators of the game did, from their imaginations, and from the stories of their youth.
A little hearsay and rumours is not enough, it is not a thorough knowledge. What do commoners, simple storytellers know of magic item properties and how to craft them, what they really look like?
On barbarians, this class has long had a suspicion of the arcane, a dislike of wizards and their creations. They are hardly going to be taught the intricacies of necklace enchantment (for a start) unless they really went into it somehow.
The young ranger to be, heard about some great bowman. How does he know about gloves of dex?
And everyone knows all about the magic items that would be best for them and compliment their skills.
"Guys, guys, stop coddling him. Just be straight. 3.5 Loyalist, you're a horrible GM. Objectively."
I'm horrible, assuming all creatures don't have all round vision.
I'm horrible, been dming for eight years, not sure what number of campaigns I am up to running. They've been so much great fun, and the fun times, I can still talk to my friends/players about them, when we aren't jumping into the latest one of course and rolling some dice. I'm horrible...
By all means, characters should hit up spellcasters in towns to spend loot and buy magic items, but they shouldn't really know the ins and outs of magic items in their world, without a lot of knowledge in this area. To know a lot about a singular item type amongst hundreds of magic items in total, is a high check, not easily made. It's like research in a field, you need to have done the research to know what books are some of the best in the field. You do not know this in the beginning.
No, and I wouldn't expect the Fighter to "Know" the exact Magic Item Listing names for each of the items that would be ideal... but there's absolutely no problem with him and the Wizard-Crafter sitting down, off camera (maybe over an ale), and discussing just how magic might be able to make him more effective.
Man, I really burned myself falling into that campfire. Despite the Cleric's healing, my skin's still a little tender.
Hmm... Fire resistance... might be useful, since we're Dragon Hunting... So you want to be resistant to fire... I know of a spell that can do that. What would be the right way to do this? Ring? Armor Enchantment? Sword? ... nah, it'd be silly to put Fire Resistance on a sword...
In character, these conversations are how magic items get developed. It doesn't have to be "On-Camera" for these things to happen.... there's lots of time sitting around campfires while a party is traveling.
Or another example. Say a monk who spent his entire life in a monastery, training and trying to attain that fusion of mind, body and soul. How does he know about gauntlets of ogre power and belts of giant strength? When he heard the occasional tale about such things, did the person recounting the tale say it was specifically a belt of giant strength +2 which goes for how much on the open market and what is required to make it?
Random stranger: "no I believe it was a +4".
Hmmm. somewhat true I suppose wraithstrike. The reason why it took so long however was because players were deciding which items too craft among a fair number of possibilities. Unprepared players? Perhaps. But yes, problem created by crafting. Lathiira has outlined a possible solution to this but it is a potential problem crafting creates.
This sound like the anti-summon GM's when they have players who summon monsters but don't have stats ready which takes up game time. At my table if you don't have the stats ready dont even think about summoning.
Neither crafting, shopping, or summoning is the issue. Unprepared players are. None of these things take a long time at my table anymore, so how is it still an issue with others?
A little hearsay and rumours is not enough, it is not a thorough knowledge. What do commoners, simple storytellers know of magic item properties and how to craft them, what they really look like?
We know that magic swords glow, courtesy of Sting. We know that they can be powerful holy relics, courtesy of Excalibur. Our world doesn't even have magic items in it, but those examples were easy to rattle off.
On barbarians, this class has long had a suspicion of the arcane, a dislike of wizards and their creations. They are hardly going to be taught the intricacies of necklace enchantment (for a start) unless they really went into it somehow.
Wrong edition. Barbarians now, by default, have no issue with spellcasters.
The young ranger to be, heard about some great bowman. How does he know about gloves of dex?
It's not the Ranger's job to know that Gloves of Dexterity will aid him with his bow-work. It IS his job to know that Gloves will help protect him when he uses his bow.
It's the Wizard-Crafter's job, when presented with a question ("Is there anything your magic can do to make me a better shot?") to apply his vast intellect to solving his teammate's problem.
He's gotta wear gloves anyway, so he doesn't shred his forearms using his bow... why not enchant them to improve hand-eye coordination?
Anonymous child:"No sir, it was a +3.33 correct to two decimal places".
And everyone knows all about the magic items that would be best for them and compliment their skills.
In short, yes.
The Fighter is going to grow up listening to tales of King Arthur's Knights of the Round Table.
The Barbarian is going to grow up listening to tales of Conan.
The Wizard is going to grow up reading Harry Potter, or hearing tales of Merlin.
The Ranger will grow up listening to tales of Robin Hood, or "Bard the Bowman" from The Hobbit.
... and so on...The early-growth interests of the children will (usually) determine what classes they end up being as adults. Wizards will want a wand like Harry, or a magic broom. Fighters will hear tales of magical armor and swords. Rangers will think of Bard's "Dragon-Slaying" arrows...
In short, they'll get the ideas for these items from the same places that the creators of the game did, from their imaginations, and from the stories of their youth.
It is perfectly reasonable to say the fighter learned about these things in fighter school. If they help him to survive then why not. I learned soldering in the military, real life weapons, and the imaginary D&D items. Why can't the fantasy soldier do it?
"Do you guys know how to build a rifle?
Do you know that a rifle will let you kill things from a distance?
Why shouldn't a fighter know there are gauntlets that give him the strength of an ogre?"
The dnd world is not our world. It does not have the same sense of information overload or education. You ask about rifles, yeah the fighter knows about swords and weapons, but how does he know about magic items or even magic weapons? Will the level 1 have ever held the nearby Lord's magic weapons? Will he have seen the books and chatted to the Lord's scribe about all the Lord has locked away for war.
"Wrong edition. Barbarians now, by default, have no issue with spellcasters."
I don't buy all classes just get along. The wizard is quite the opposite to the barb, they stand for different things, come from different cultures, one is urbane, one is rural, one is hardy, one is scholarly. The wizard may know about the items in question, some of them, but the barb did not do years at the library (or he would be a scribe or a wizard). Different background, different set of knowledges.
Fighters, monks, rangers, barbarians, they do not have knowledge arcana even on their list of class skills. How would they know much about magic items again?
So in fighter school, there is a lesson where everyone is told to open to page 150 and they start going through magic weapons and armors. At the end of the lesson, the instructor tells them their years of training counts for nothing compared to a magical sword and armor. In structor pulls out +1 longsword and says:"this is your life."
I'm a DM, I've read the DMG. Has the fighter?
From mythology? I don't know very much about sacred, divine or whatever items from various cultures. I study sociology, history, not mythical weapons and armaments.
"Do you guys know how to build a rifle?
Do you know that a rifle will let you kill things from a distance?
Why shouldn't a fighter know there are gauntlets that give him the strength of an ogre?"
The dnd world is not our world. It does not have the same sense of information overload or education. You ask about rifles, yeah the fighter knows about swords and weapons, but how does he know about magic items or even magic weapons? Will the level 1 have ever held the nearby Lord's magic weapons? Will he have seen the books and chatted to the Lord's scribe about all the Lord has locked away for war.
"Wrong edition. Barbarians now, by default, have no issue with spellcasters."
I don't buy all classes just get along. The wizard is quite the opposite to the barb, they stand for different things, come from different cultures, one is urbane, one is rural, one is hardy, one is scholarly. The wizard may know about the items in question, some of them, but the barb did not do years at the library (or he would be a scribe or a wizard). Different background, different set of knowledges.
Fighters, monks, rangers, barbarians, they do not have knowledge arcana even on their list of class skills. How would they know much about magic items again?
A class is just a bad of mechanics. I can call myself a "priest" as a bard(good for talking people into converting, and it can heal), or I can be cleric, or an oracle.
Having the barbarian rules mechanics does not mean you have to dislike the guy with the spellbook, and there is no reason to think otherwise. I don't even think that idea was supported in 3.5. I don't access to any 2nd edition material. Being from different areas does not mean much either. You can have a wizard who learned in a formal school, or a self taught wizard who lives out in the middle of nowhere. That does not mean they can't get along.
"Wrong edition. Barbarians now, by default, have no issue with spellcasters."
I don't buy all classes just get along. The wizard is quite the opposite to the barb, they stand for different things, come from different cultures, one is urbane, one is rural, one is hardy, one is scholarly. The wizard may know about the items in question, some of them, but the barb did not do years at the library (or he would be a scribe or a wizard). Different background, different set of knowledges.
Classes don't inherently get along or disagree with each other. Character's can. If your barbarian doesn't like my wizard, that's a character dispute.
To say that all Barbarians hate Wizards removes options from what characters can and can't exist in your game. Again, I like my players to have more options for what they can do, not less.
Fighters, monks, rangers, barbarians, they do not have knowledge arcana even on their list of class skills. How would they know much about magic items again?
They would know what they need to be able to do, to be better at their jobs. It's the Wizard's job to know how to turn this into a reality.
I can't tell you what a random computer chip does, but I can sure use a computer. Same basic concept.
I can't tell you what the do-hicky in the middle of a car's transmission is, but I can drive a car. Same basic concept.
Fighter doesn't have to know the technical name for Gauntlets of Ogre Power in order to know that magic gloves can make him a more effective fighter.
I'm a DM, I've read the DMG. Has the fighter?
I guess the same way I know how to use an M-60. I was taught about certain tools of the trade that help me to live longer would be how I would know about certain magic items.
Having the barbarian rules mechanics does not mean you have to dislike the guy with the spellbook, and there is no reason to think otherwise. I don't even think that idea was supported in 3.5. I don't access to any 2nd edition material.
Barbarian didn't exist in 2ed, other than as a Fighter "Kit". In order to get back to the Wizard-Hatin'-Barbarians, you have to go back to 1ed.
The fighter has not been taught about computer chips, computers, car transmissions. The fighter/barb/monk/ranger is not a magic item researcher (unless skills are put making them this way and qualifying them in this area). You are not your character, your character is not all that is you.
How would a fighter know more strength comes from a specific pair of gloves? He is used to pitting his strength against others, not relying on such things before encountering them in adventuring.
Barbarians were in second ed sir, there is a lot you are not aware of.
Wraith, the tools of your trade that you have been trained in the use of, are not the same as knowledge of all the possible items which could help you. What level 1 has magic items to use and familiarise themselves with?
Are you thoroughly researched in all manners of drugs and stimulants which could help you many different types of battles? Do you know the names, the dosage, what they look like typically, common chemicals within each?
If you can't answer this, then you are like a fighter which doesn't know much about potions.
"They would know what they need to be able to do, to be better at their jobs."
How would they know? Barbarians are told off the mighty greataxes (or in detail +something greataxes) capable of felling trees. I suppose the tribal shamans talked excessively about the specifics magic items over the feats of accomplishment by various members of the tribe.
Monks, sure they'd hear about it. Attaining mastery over the mind, body and soul is unreachable without magic items. The abbot talks excessively about having the hunger for magic items and the insight to pick them up. So thats more discussed than unarmed blocks and grapples during a monk's training?
Rangers, the frontiersmen. Defenders of the woodlands and rural communities. Their mentors teach them their skills with the bow and sword, how to trek etc. When they are skilled enough they can call upon nature to aid them using certain spells. But more importantly is the education on magic items. The types,which body slots they fill and their specific names. "Forget all the training and reverence of nature, without mystical equipment, you are at most mediocre" is the message.
As for fighters,"turn to page 150 and we shall review all the magic items. Tosay we are reviewing those of +2 enhancement bonuses. I expect you all to memorise and know the list" says the instructor before dismissing the class.
Quite right. This all is perfectly reasonable.
The fighter has not been taught about computer chips, computers, car transmissions. The fighter/barb/monk/ranger is not a magic item researcher (unless skills are put making them this way and qualifying them in this area). You are not your character, your character is not all that is you.
How would a fighter know more strength comes from a specific pair of gloves? He is used to pitting his strength against others, not relying on such things before encountering them in adventuring.
Barbarians were in second ed sir, there is a lot you are not aware of.
I will try this again. We as soldiers are taught about certain tools of the trade. Why would it not happen in the game world?
The fighter has not been taught about computer chips, computers, car transmissions.
You'll notice in the previous post, "I" was the one referring to computer chips and car transmissions, to draw the parallel for the fighter.
You are not your character, your character is not all that is you.
I'd hope not, I'd be an incredibly boring character to play!
How would a fighter know more strength comes from a specific pair of gloves? He is used to pitting his strength against others, not relying on such things before encountering them in adventuring.
In short, a fighter could know about magic gloves, because in his world, magic gloves exist. He would know that magic swords, armor, gloves, pendants, boots, statues, ointments, potions, and all other kinds of wondrous items exist. He would also know the tale of Sir Rectumstomp, who, with the aid of his magical sword, shield, and gloves, held the Ghitchee Pass against the Goblin Hordes for two days of constant struggle, while his erstwhile squire used his Flying Carpet to speed to the garrison for assistance.
... or is he not allowed to know that Flying Carpets exist?
Barbarians were in second ed sir, there is a lot you are not aware of.
The only place in 2ed, that I'm aware of, that Barbarians could be found, was:
- in "The Complete Handbook", as a Fighter Kit (as I previously mentioned)
- The Skald Bard, a Kit from "The Complete Bard's Handbook".
I'll gladly admit to not knowing everything in the world... but if you can find me another place, in stock 2ed, where there was a barbarian, I'll be pleasantly surprised.
Supporting Source
Are the axes of the barbarian heroes discussed in clinical detail, or are the barbarian heroes and their abilities discussed far more?
Is a warrior going to ask around about Excalibur, try and buy it? Apart from excalibur, what other items do they know about? Without arcane knowledge, can they recall it accurately, have they actually been told the truth?
Wraith, the tools of your trade that you have been trained in the use of, are not the same as knowledge of all the possible items which could help you. What level 1 has magic items to use and familiarise themselves with?
Are you thoroughly researched in all manners of drugs and stimulants which could help you many different types of battles? Do you know the names, the dosage, what they look like typically, common chemicals within each?
If you can't answer this, then you are like a fighter which doesn't know much about potions.
Why wouldn't a Fighter know that magic potions exist, like pretty much anyone these days know that steriods exist?
He may not be able to identify potions, should he stumble across them... just like a modern soldier wouldn't know what a bottle of steroids would look like at a glance.
Both the Fighter and Soldier, upon finding the right person, could ask for something to make them stronger.
One gets steroids, one gets a potion of Bull's Strength. What's the issue?
Is a warrior going to ask around about Excalibur, try and buy it? Apart from excalibur, what other items do they know about? Without arcane knowledge, can they recall it accurately, have they actually been told the truth?
Does it matter if they've been told the truth? They've been told enough to get the idea of "Magic Sword" stuck in their head... and that's enough.
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Are the axes of the barbarian heroes discussed in clinical detail, or are the barbarian heroes and their abilities discussed far more?
Is a warrior going to ask around about Excalibur, try and buy it? Apart from excalibur, what other items do they know about? Without arcane knowledge, can they recall it accurately, have they actually been told the truth?
Who cares? He knows things are out there, and he can go find them.
And really, how many people can recite sports stars statistics by heart? You think aspiring warriors wouldn't obsess over legendary heroes the same way?
Are you thoroughly researched in all manners of drugs and stimulants which could help you many different types of battles? Do you know the names, the dosage, what they look like typically, common chemicals within each?If you can't answer this, then you are like a fighter who doesn't have the Brew Potion feat or the Spellcraft skill, and therefore has to buy potions ready-made.
FTFY. ;-)
Wraith, the tools of your trade that you have been trained in the use of, are not the same as knowledge of all the possible items which could help you. What level 1 has magic items to use and familiarise themselves with?
Are you thoroughly researched in all manners of drugs and stimulants which could help you many different types of battles? Do you know the names, the dosage, what they look like typically, common chemicals within each?
If you can't answer this, then you are like a fighter which doesn't know much about potions.
So my 3 to 5 or higher level instructor has no experience with magic items, and/or is unwilling to pass the information down? Really? Most fighters are formally trained. I am sure all those weapons they know how to use are not just lying around. Being at a formal place of instruction they should at least be taught about the items even if they are not available. How much familiarization does it take to know how to put a glove or belt on? My 2 yr old nephew can do that.
I know the ones(chemicals) that I need access to since I would be expected to use them. Some things are left to the medics though. In D&D the items are not applied like real life drugs since you can't overdose on a headband of wisdom. Nice try though. If those headbands and such were as complicated to use as 2Pam chloride then you would have a point since the that one and the other chemicals are to be administered in a certain way, and in a certain order.
3.5 L, what happens in your games the first time your fighters run across magical items? Do they even know about the possibility of magical items? If not, how will they even recognize them? Or what they do? It would seem that the fighters will never end up with magical gear. They don't know about it, don't know to look for it, the wizards might not even think about the stuff. Seems strange your fighters could then survive to higher levels without that gear, so is it safe to assume your spellcasters explain this stuff to the fighter at some point?
What magic potions exactly? Wizards and witches brew potions, so he heard on a few occasions. What is then known in detail? Now how does the character, from these vague ideas, know what to look for in potions? How would he go about asking for clothing or amour of a specific type of enchantment?
"Both the Fighter and Soldier, upon finding the right person, could ask for something to make them stronger."
Indeed, they are quite reliant on others to inform them about about magic items and their properties.
"Both the Fighter and Soldier, upon finding the right person, could ask for something to make them stronger."
This isn't what is happening. Players act like their characters know details about magic items and actively seek them out, when a lack of knowledge means one doesn't know what to ask and seek. They could ask for help, but power gamers and compulsive slot fillers don't do this, they know, so their character knows.
On the barb, this is a funny situation. You said it wasn't in second ed, yet also said it is a fighter sub-set class. Well, you are wrong on one and right on the other. Yes they are in second ed, and are a fighter sub-set class. Different skills and requirements to the base, bit more of a raging skirmisher.
This isn't what is happening. Players act like their characters know details about magic items and actively seek them out, when a lack of knowledge means one doesn't know what to ask and seek.
I agree, although it strongly depends on setting. Items commonly found in a setting can be commonly known about, but if characters and magic items are exceptional, I would not expect anyone to know much without first-hand experience or a good Spellcraft check.
On the rod build above with 4 rods. Rods should be quite rare items, multiples held by one character should be almost impossible.
That may be so in your campaign world, and it certainly is in mine, but when discussing the RAW we must take into account how the game has been designed and it has been designed with magic marts and item creation in mind. That's why the WBL guidelines are what they are.
But even if we ignore the magic marts, we'll HAVE to include crafting as that's RAW and not really campaign-specific.
To craft, he'll have to have the item creation feat. That's okay. We'll also give him Skill Focus (Spellcraft), a must for any non-wizard item crafter. That's also okay, he's got plenty of feats to spend and few must-haves except for improved initiative (toughness or iron will is also nice depending on ability scores).
The DC to craft is 5 + 17 + 5 for not having the feat = 27.
A reasonable spellcraft modifier is 12 ranks + 3 class + 6 skill focus = +21. He can take 10 to craft the rods.
Crafting takes four weeks, less than a month, for all of them.
So, to repeat, in a game that's otherwise core it's ridiculously broken - but in a heavily houseruled game, it might not matter. Just like how giving +20 to all saving throws for rogues, and only rogues, might not be unbalancing - if it's accompanied by a +20 DC bonus on all spells when targeting rogues.
However, lack of magical equipment, if this is across the board and not only magey stuff, usually hurts warrior-types more than spellcasters.