|
Hello, first time requesting advice on these boards.
I'm playing in a Kingmaker campaign shortly, and am considering a Half-Orc, using the "Toothy" alternate racial trait to get the bite attack. He will be a Ranger, taking the Aspect of the Beast feat as his first combat style feat, getting the two claw attacks.
Here are his stats I am considering. 20 point buy.
S 18
D 14
Co 14
I 11
W 13
Ch 7
I am thinking of taking Keen Scent at first level, Aspect of the Beast at 2nd, and after that? Improvet Nat Attack? Weapon Focus? Power Attack? Rending Claws?
The character concept is of a feral, savage man who has spent his whole life in the wilderness. Only recently he has come in conflict with a community in Southern Brevoy, which was the home of one of the other PCs. As a way to bring him into the campaign, this PC has managed somehow to gain the Half-Orc's trust, and is bringing him along into the Stolen Lands to help establish a new community. My character will be quiet, wild, unaccustomed to civilized behavior. He fights with tooth and claw (when he gets them), but also has an axe for backup. He wears hide armor and generally primitive gear, except for some trinkets he's picked up. As a character, how he develops will depend on the other characters. Can they teach him? Civilize him? Socialize him?
My requests for advice are:
1. Is the Natural Weapon style as terrible mechanically as I think it is? Note that this will not necessarily stop me from playing him. :)
2. When he gets all his attacks, will they all be, by virtue of them all being primary natural attacks, at full base attack bonus and strength bonus? For example, at level 2 when he gets his claws, will his attack routine on a full attack be: 2 Claws +6 (1d4+4) and 1 Bite +6 (1d4+4)?
3. What feats will help this?
L1 Keen Scent
L2 Aspect of the Beast (claws)
L3 Power Attack/Rending Claws/Improved Natural Attack (claws)/Ironhide?
4. What sort of Archetype might help this? I have considered both the Shapeshifter and Infiltrator archetypes. Mainly for Natural Armor bonuses. Is Favored Terrain just too good to give up (especially in Kingmaker)?
4a. When using adaptations in the Infiltrator archetype, can one use multiple ones at once? Or can one only activate them one at a time? If it is the latter, do multiple Natural Armor adaptations stack?
5. What favored enemies to choose?
6. Do natural armor bonuses stack? Taking Ironhide, for example, for +1 Natural Armor, and then taking an Adaptation from the Infiltrator for +2, does my natural armor bonus become +3 or +2?
Any advice is welcome. More if I think of any.
|
Well since I am currently playing pretty much this exact build let me answer a few questions for you.
1. Is the Natural Weapon style as terrible mechanically as I think it is? Note that this will not necessarily stop me from playing him. :)
Actually the natural weapon mechanic is FAR, FAR superior to the iterative attack. your 3rd attack around is just as likely to hit as your first so you don't need to stack as much +hit as other melee classes.
2. When he gets all his attacks, will they all be, by virtue of them all being primary natural attacks, at full base attack bonus and strength bonus? For example, at level 2 when he gets his claws, will his attack routine on a full attack be: 2 Claws +6 (1d4+4) and 1 Bite +6 (1d4+4)?
That is exactly how this works.
3. What feats will help this?
Take power Attack first, biggest bang and works with all your attack options, grab eldritch claws as soon as you can and make sure you have Improved Unarmed Strike by 9th level. Other than that it depends on your goals for the character.
I devoted my character to picking up the intimidation feats so every round my opponents are Shaken and Feared whenever I attack them and I get multiple AoO's per round.Another option is to pick up the archery feats so you can be a nasty switch-hitter but it's up to your character goal.
4a. When using adaptations in the Infiltrator archetype, can one use multiple ones at once? Or can one only activate them one at a time? If it is the latter, do multiple Natural Armor adaptations stack?
Skip it, favored terrain is too good to give up.
5. What favored enemies to choose?
Ask your DM about this specific AP.
However You rarely go wrong with these choices in this order:1). Human
2). Undead
3). Evil Outsiders
4). Constructs
6. Do natural armor bonuses stack? Taking Ironhide, for example, for +1 Natural Armor, and then taking an Adaptation from the Infiltrator for +2, does my natural armor bonus become +3 or +2?
Natural Armor bonuses do not stack with each other but they do stack with all other armor bonuses.
Personal recommendation, skip all the archetypes for Ranger, they are usually pretty underwhelming and cost you some of the best features the class offers.
Holy hell, a half-orc natural weapons ranger would be awesome.
Yes. All of your natural attacks are at your full BAB. You add your full strength to damage, too.
I highly recommend Aspect of the Beast for the claws, and Rending Claws as soon as you're able to get them. Scent is awesome as well, but it will really depend on how well you use it and your DM. If you have Ultimate Combat, there's a ranger variant that gets rage. Not sure what it gives up, but it would be an awesome addition to your suite.
Natural Armor bonuses won't stack, you'll take the higher of the two. Ironhide sounds awesome until you learn that. Favored enemies you should talk to your DM about.
I'm sure that someone else will be along to give you some more (or better) ideas for this.
Take Power Attack first, biggest bang and works with all your attack options, grab eldritch claws as soon as you can and make sure you have Improved Unarmed Strike by 9th level.
Improved Unarmed Strike won't help this build, unless there's some awesome feat that needs it as a prerequisite. Natural weapons are not unarmed attacks, they're weapons, of the natural variety. Improved Natural Attack will only increase the damage of one natural weapon, so I'd probably go with claws, since you'll have two of them.
I forgot about Eldritch Claws. I'd personally go for Rending Claws first, and immediately go for Eldritch Claws next.
|
|
Mathwei:
Why Improved Unarmed Strike? To add kicks to the attacks?
Pretty much, plus it significantly reduces the cost of enchanting your attacks.
A Natural Weapon Ranger will definately be using an Amulet of Natural fists (it's the only item in the game that affects his natural attacks) and gets Multi-attack at 10th level.
Natural Attacks and Unarmed Strikes all benefit from that Amulet so you want to maximize the number of attacks you get that use those.
an 11th level Ranger with toothy, Aspect Claws, and IUS and a simple AoMF (fiery) gets just from BAB alone
6 attacks (+9 claw/+9 Claw/+9 Bite/+11 kick/+6 Kick/+1 Elbow) for dice +1D6 fire.
All before adding in strength, favored enemy or buffs.
Once you pick up Ultimate Combat you can take Feral Combat Style (Boar) and can add an additional 2D6 Bleed damage on top of it.
Also NEVER EVER take rending claws or Improved natural attack. Both are traps and are a complete waste of a feat.
6 attacks (+9 claw/+9 Claw/+9 Bite/+11 kick/+6 Kick/+1 Elbow) for dice +1D6 fire.
...what...?
XD Riiiight. I don't know any DMs that would allow that, no matter how much rules lawyering you pulled. Just because you take IUS, you don't instantly get to make 3 extra attacks because you've got body parts.
By that logic, you could claw/claw/bite/headbutt/elbow/elbow/kick/kick as a full round.
EDIT: And I fail to see how Rending Claws is a trap, because no other feat gives you an extra d6 of damage for doing damage already. If you expect even ONE of your natural claw attacks to hit regularly, you can reasonably assume the second one will as well because they are at the same BAB. Hardly what I'd call a trap.
6 attacks (+9 claw/+9 Claw/+9 Bite/+11 kick/+6 Kick/+1 Elbow) for dice +1D6 fire....what...?
XD Riiiight. I don't know any DMs that would allow that, no matter how much rules lawyering you pulled. Just because you take IUS, you don't instantly get to make 3 extra attacks because you've got body parts.
By that logic, you could claw/claw/bite/headbutt/elbow/elbow/kick/kick as a full round.
I would allow that. That is simply using unarmed strike as weapon. So with unarmed strike you get iterative attacks 11/6/1... you can call them what you want. Using weapon makes your natural attacks secondary, so they get all -5 and Str halved to the damage. Multiattack makes the penalty only -2 for the attacks. So the result is +9/+9/+9/+11/+6/+1. However the Str bonus to the damage for the natural attacks is halved (and thus power attack gives only +1 damage per +1 to hit traded).
I would allow that. That is simply using unarmed strike as weapon. So with unarmed strike you get iterative attacks 11/6/1... you can call them what you want. Using weapon makes your natural attacks secondary, so they get all -5 and Str halved to the damage. Multiattack makes the penalty only -2 for the attacks. So the result is +9/+9/+9/+11/+6/+1. However the Str bonus to the damage for the natural attacks is halved (and thus power attack gives only +1 damage per +1 to hit traded).6 attacks (+9 claw/+9 Claw/+9 Bite/+11 kick/+6 Kick/+1 Elbow) for dice +1D6 fire....what...?
XD Riiiight. I don't know any DMs that would allow that, no matter how much rules lawyering you pulled. Just because you take IUS, you don't instantly get to make 3 extra attacks because you've got body parts.
By that logic, you could claw/claw/bite/headbutt/elbow/elbow/kick/kick as a full round.
Why not take TWF then and make an extra off-hand attack? This reeks of cheese to me.
Limburger, even.
|
|
I would allow that. That is simply using unarmed strike as weapon. So with unarmed strike you get iterative attacks 11/6/1... you can call them what you want. Using weapon makes your natural attacks secondary, so they get all -5 and Str halved to the damage. Multiattack makes the penalty only -2 for the attacks. So the result is +9/+9/+9/+11/+6/+1. However the Str bonus to the damage for the natural attacks is halved (and thus power attack gives only +1 damage per +1 to hit traded).6 attacks (+9 claw/+9 Claw/+9 Bite/+11 kick/+6 Kick/+1 Elbow) for dice +1D6 fire....what...?
XD Riiiight. I don't know any DMs that would allow that, no matter how much rules lawyering you pulled. Just because you take IUS, you don't instantly get to make 3 extra attacks because you've got body parts.
By that logic, you could claw/claw/bite/headbutt/elbow/elbow/kick/kick as a full round.
Almost correct here, the STRENGTH bonus is halved but power attack has nothing to do with Strength so it's at full power.
edit: Boar strike is a bit expensive but the +2D6 bleed damge only requires IUS +weapon Focus +Boar style feat. IUS you're taking anyway because you need it to keep up after 11th level, the weapon focus is a feat Tax and the style itself gives the bleed damage. Also unlike the horrible rending claw this just requires 2 hits in a round so this will be triggered every round (6 attacks, if half hit you do the damage and it is doubled on a crit)
Expensive but worth it after 10th level.
EDIT: And I fail to see how Rending Claws is a trap, because no other feat gives you an extra d6 of damage for doing damage already. If you expect even ONE of your natural claw attacks to hit regularly, you can reasonably assume the second one will as well because they are at the same BAB. Hardly what I'd call a trap.
Rending Claws is a trap, it requires 2 consecutive CLAW hits and do damage to add an average 3.5 pts of damage that cannot crit and since it's considered precision damage doesn't affect anything immune to that.
|
|
I would allow that. That is simply using unarmed strike as weapon. So with unarmed strike you get iterative attacks 11/6/1... you can call them what you want. Using weapon makes your natural attacks secondary, so they get all -5 and Str halved to the damage. Multiattack makes the penalty only -2 for the attacks. So the result is +9/+9/+9/+11/+6/+1. However the Str bonus to the damage for the natural attacks is halved (and thus power attack gives only +1 damage per +1 to hit traded).6 attacks (+9 claw/+9 Claw/+9 Bite/+11 kick/+6 Kick/+1 Elbow) for dice +1D6 fire....what...?
XD Riiiight. I don't know any DMs that would allow that, no matter how much rules lawyering you pulled. Just because you take IUS, you don't instantly get to make 3 extra attacks because you've got body parts.
By that logic, you could claw/claw/bite/headbutt/elbow/elbow/kick/kick as a full round.
Why not take TWF then and make an extra off-hand attack? This reeks of cheese to me.
Limburger, even.
Someone obviously hasn't looked at what 11th level TWF builds can do. 6 attacks a round really isn't that much.
The core rules and the bestiary rules specifically call out exactly how these 2 attack types interact and by Raw and RAI this is how the devs want it to go.
Almost correct here, the STRENGTH bonus is halved but power attack has nothing to do with Strength so it's at full power.I would allow that. That is simply using unarmed strike as weapon. So with unarmed strike you get iterative attacks 11/6/1... you can call them what you want. Using weapon makes your natural attacks secondary, so they get all -5 and Str halved to the damage. Multiattack makes the penalty only -2 for the attacks. So the result is +9/+9/+9/+11/+6/+1. However the Str bonus to the damage for the natural attacks is halved (and thus power attack gives only +1 damage per +1 to hit traded).6 attacks (+9 claw/+9 Claw/+9 Bite/+11 kick/+6 Kick/+1 Elbow) for dice +1D6 fire....what...?
XD Riiiight. I don't know any DMs that would allow that, no matter how much rules lawyering you pulled. Just because you take IUS, you don't instantly get to make 3 extra attacks because you've got body parts.
By that logic, you could claw/claw/bite/headbutt/elbow/elbow/kick/kick as a full round.
Power attack does only 1 extra with secondary natural attacks:
Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
EDIT: And I fail to see how Rending Claws is a trap, because no other feat gives you an extra d6 of damage for doing damage already. If you expect even ONE of your natural claw attacks to hit regularly, you can reasonably assume the second one will as well because they are at the same BAB. Hardly what I'd call a trap.Rending Claws is a trap, it requires 2 consecutive CLAW hits and do damage to...
Yeah. I can read. Again: if you expect even one of your claws to hit, why would you think the second one wouldn't? And if precision damage is so bad in your eyes, you must think rogues are useless.
And I completely disagree that you can get all three of your natural attacks as secondary attacks after a full round of unarmed strikes. Your interpretation is far off base from my understanding of the interaction there.
|
|
Almost correct here, the STRENGTH bonus is halved but power attack has nothing to do with Strength so it's at full power.I would allow that. That is simply using unarmed strike as weapon. So with unarmed strike you get iterative attacks 11/6/1... you can call them what you want. Using weapon makes your natural attacks secondary, so they get all -5 and Str halved to the damage. Multiattack makes the penalty only -2 for the attacks. So the result is +9/+9/+9/+11/+6/+1. However the Str bonus to the damage for the natural attacks is halved (and thus power attack gives only +1 damage per +1 to hit traded).6 attacks (+9 claw/+9 Claw/+9 Bite/+11 kick/+6 Kick/+1 Elbow) for dice +1D6 fire....what...?
XD Riiiight. I don't know any DMs that would allow that, no matter how much rules lawyering you pulled. Just because you take IUS, you don't instantly get to make 3 extra attacks because you've got body parts.
By that logic, you could claw/claw/bite/headbutt/elbow/elbow/kick/kick as a full round.
Power attack does only 1 extra with secondary natural attacks:
** spoiler omitted **...
you are absolutely right, I always forget that part.
It's a hit on damage but the extra attacks per round from adding IUS should easily make up for the slight decrease in damage.
I think it is great at low levels but then gets worse as levels go on becuase of not getting more attacks. At level 2 it is great.
4a Skip it, favored terrain is too good to give up.
5. What favored enemies to choose?Ask your DM about this specific AP.
However You rarely go wrong with these choices in this order:
1). Human
2). Undead
3). Evil Outsiders
4). Constructs
I beg to differ. Not in general, but knowing the Kingmaker Campaign.
Quote 4: The Greenbelts landscape is very diverse, the Narlmarches are a big forest with lot of work to do for your Ranger, but there are also lots of plains, hills, mountains and most promenently: rivers and swamps, you´ll fight in caverns and ruins, what i´m getting at: it´s very situational. The Shapeshifter archetype would fit really nicely and always come handy. I could also recommend the Giant-Infiltrator, the AC-Bonus goes a long way*, but as it doesn´t stack and considering your set-up Ironhide is propably the best way to go.Quote5: Of course you can never go wrong with human, but for this setting i wouldn´t recommend any of the others, unless you have neither a Paladin** nor a Cleric. So far no construct seen to kill.
Not wanting to spoil anything further, i´d strongly recommend
Have fun, with this char in this campaign :D hard not to.
they kill and survive. Fight for the people!
GreenBloods Represent!;)
* 10min/lvl, nice if you don´t have a druid in your group (and you should, since he can shape wood, which is a spell that can be used for building)
**in your group? What is your group thus far? I´m tempted to recommend one, too. Likely to be a bit bored, but still...
To unleash, that is. Hard to train, though. Neigh impossible. Good party face, while crappy rulers, well difficult. Sorry, can´t wait to play again.
|
|
4a Skip it, favored terrain is too good to give up.
5. What favored enemies to choose?Ask your DM about this specific AP.
However You rarely go wrong with these choices in this order:
1). Human
2). Undead
3). Evil Outsiders
4). ConstructsI beg to differ. Not in general, but knowing the Kingmaker Campaign.
Quote 4: The Greenbelts landscape is very diverse, the Narlmarches are a big forest with lot of work to do for your Ranger, but there are also lots of plains, hills, mountains and most promenently: rivers and swamps, you´ll fight in caverns and ruins, what i´m getting at: it´s very situational. The Shapeshifter archetype would fit really nicely and always come handy. I could also recommend the Giant-Infiltrator, the AC-Bonus goes a long way*, but as it doesn´t stack and considering your set-up Ironhide is propably the best way to go.Quote5: Of course you can never go wrong with human, but for this setting i wouldn´t recommend any of the others, unless you have neither a Paladin** nor a Cleric. So far no construct seen to kill.
Not wanting to spoil anything further, i´d strongly recommend ** spoiler omitted **
Have fun, with this char in this campaign :D hard not to.
** spoiler omitted *** 10min/lvl, nice if you don´t have a druid in your group (and you should, since he can shape wood, which is a spell that can be used for building)
**in your group? What is your group thus far? I´m tempted to recommend one, too. ** spoiler omitted **
Yeah I'm guessing you haven't gotten very far in this AP.
I've done this AP already and if your GM doesn't change things much from the text as written (no GM I know wouldn't put their own spin on it) then you will meetTalk to your GM and if they say they are running it as written then take my advice.
As for Shapeshifter it costs you all your Favored Terrains, Your camouflage ability and your Master Hunter power for a slight bonus equal to a first level spell that can be used for less then 20 minutes a day. Skip it and buy a wand.
Yeah I'm guessing you haven't gotten very far in this AP.
I bow to your superior knowledge. Oh, My...
|
|
Yeah, it's the duration of the Shapeshifter abilities that put me off. I don't care so much about losing the Ranger capstone as the campaign doesn't go that high. The infiltrator ones at 10 min/level are much juicier. After reading that I can only use one at a time though, it lost some of its lustre. I am generally a fan of skill bonuses and favored terrain gives me a boatload, but I'm worried about my AC, which is why I was thinking about Natural Armor bonuses from Infiltrator or Ironhide (which seems like a pretty small benefit for spending a feat however).
Any other AC-boosting avenues I might be able pursue?
Also, thoughts on multi-classing? Druid? Barbarian? Alchemist?
I know there's Feral Mutagen, and there's Barbarian Rage Powers that grant natural attacks, as well as at least one Sorceror bloodline.
Then there's the Changeling race from the Carrion Crown adventure path. The stats aren't great for a Ranger of this type, but it gets claws to start, a natural armor bonus, and the Hulking Changeling trait seems to synergize well. I am not, however getting the bite too...
|
|
I like natural attacks a lot, so I totally approve. One thing you could look into, if you're willing to make a massive investment, is the Beast Totem Rage Powers for Barbarians. It would take 10(!) levels of Barbarian to complete it, but the end result would be two claw attacks (1d6 instead of 1d4 from Aspect of the Beast, and you could still take it to gain another 30ft of darkvision), extra natural armor, and POUNCE. Because you have toothy, you'd still be able to access Eldritch Claws.
This character also seems perfect for the True Primitive archetype from UC, trophy fetishes and all! They get a favored terrain (representing where they came from (negotiate with DM to make it close to/similar to Stolen Lands), and the trophy fetishes ability means you'll never have to worry about your saving throws. I'm not really sure, but maybe you could attach some to yourself as ghoulish rings/piercings to get benefits for your natural attacks?
|
|
Something that is unclear to me - I am reading the Lesser Fiend Totem Rage Power, which grants a Gore attack at 1d8 as a primary Natural Attack, but it says it becomes secondary if I attack with weapons... do they mean manufactured weapons? Or are they including other Natural Weapons with it?
Changeling Barbarian with Lesser Fiend Totem? Get three Natural Attacks. True Primitive looks fun too.
|
|
Something that is unclear to me - I am reading the Lesser Fiend Totem Rage Power, which grants a Gore attack at 1d8 as a primary Natural Attack, but it says it becomes secondary if I attack with weapons... do they mean manufactured weapons? Or are they including other Natural Weapons with it?
Changeling Barbarian with Lesser Fiend Totem? Get three Natural Attacks. True Primitive looks fun too.
It becomes secondary if you use a manufactured weapon. That one is good too, but be careful about advancing it too far, lest you start debuffing your allies.
|
|
I'm not too concerned about fewer rage rounds early on. If I do think it's an issue, there's the Extra Rage feat I can take at first level. The buffing issue is a very important one, however. Depending on the rest of the party, that plus the animal companion will probably be the deciding factors in favour of the Ranger over the Barbarian. I was getting rather enamored of the Barbarian fluff-wise though. I've been doing some comparisons over the first three levels of damage output, and while the Barbarian edges out the Ranger somewhat, the Ranger will hit slightly more often. I think as levels increase, the Ranger will do better with buffs. I have not yet hammered down a level-by-level build for either. Rage power and feat choices are still up in the air.
As for other considerations, has anyone looked at the Rending Fury feats from Ultimate Combat? Rend with one claw, +1d6 damage on a rend, and 1d6 bleed on a rend. Each for a feat at 6, 9 and 12. Too bad you can only rend once a round.
Oh, and Boar Style is looking lots more interesting now that I've looked closer at it.
|
|
I'm not too concerned about fewer rage rounds early on. If I do think it's an issue, there's the Extra Rage feat I can take at first level. The buffing issue is a very important one, however. Depending on the rest of the party, that plus the animal companion will probably be the deciding factors in favour of the Ranger over the Barbarian. I was getting rather enamored of the Barbarian fluff-wise though. I've been doing some comparisons over the first three levels of damage output, and while the Barbarian edges out the Ranger somewhat, the Ranger will hit slightly more often. I think as levels increase, the Ranger will do better with buffs. I have not yet hammered down a level-by-level build for either. Rage power and feat choices are still up in the air.
As for other considerations, has anyone looked at the Rending Fury feats from Ultimate Combat? Rend with one claw, +1d6 damage on a rend, and 1d6 bleed on a rend. Each for a feat at 6, 9 and 12. Too bad you can only rend once a round.
Oh, and Boar Style is looking lots more interesting now that I've looked closer at it.
Boar Style is excellent but understand this, it WILL be nerfed very soon. Probably within the month so hold off on taking it until you see what the nerf is going to be. (I expect at a minimum the 2D6 bleed damage will be removed).
As for the Rending feats you don't qualify for them, those are limited to creatures with a natural Rend ability and the rending claws feat doesn't cut it.
Finally barbarian is a good choice but not the best. The best pairing for damage is a level dip in Monk.
I know it sounds weird but it will give you the highest damage increase over all other classes and it stacks well with Ranger since both classes go after the same stats (Str->Dex->Con->Wis).
But there are three very simple reasons you want Monk over Barbarian.
1). Great Save progression (the +2 to all saves at lvl 1 is great)
2). You need the unarmed strikes to keep your damage up at high levels and monk gives it to you for free.
3). Finally, and most importantly, with monk you don't take the -5 penalty to hit or the half strength damage to your natural attacks when mixing iterative and natural attacks.
A monk's unarmed strikes are considered natural attacks so it doesn't kick on the penalties for mixing natural and iterative attacks. On top of that it does more damage with those other strikes, you get to add your wisdom bonus to your AC, gives you a free stunning fist feat.
If you take some of the new monk archetypes for 2-4 levels (max 4) your Ranger will be a Monster in and out of combat.
|
|
I can't believe I didn't think of this, but the Wild Stalker archetype from Ultimate Combat may be perfect. It's a Ranger/Barbarian mash-up that gets Rage, Ranger casting, and rage powers. The price is pretty heavy: you won't be able to take combat style feats, so no natural claws. You could still go for Beast totem, however, and with toothy, you'll still qualify for Eldritch Claws.
I would say that as far as qualifying for Barbarian rage powers, that your Barbarian level is equal to your Ranger level -3.
|
Hmm, we have a ranger/barbarian, of whose level distribution I'm not sure of, but he has at least two levels of barbarian to get fiendish totem going with his Aspect of the Beast claws and so far he has had only one sessions where rage rounds haven't been plentiful. Two levels of barbarian combined with the Extra Rage feat amounts(assuming a Con of 14) to 14 rounds of rage, which has so far been enough.
As to natural weapon style, I agree that it isn't that powerful past 11th level, when normal rangers have iteratives and haste comes into play often, but our Bekyar tiefling has been tearing everyone up. Some of the ridiculous oomph does come from the fact that Serpent's Skull has so many animals as foes. Dinosaurs, hippopotami, etc. I figure Kingmaker, having such a variety of environments(ours has been jungle after jungle, btw) would see rangers using the guide archetype more. Sure, out of the gate it's kind of weak, but it combines well with favorite terrain features and the focus gets so powerful eventually that GMs will start grimacing when their well-build combat monster gets under that thing.
Hmm, I'd suggest getting an amulet of mighty fists soon though. Ask your party members to craft one. Before getting there, a magical two-handed weapon would serve you well in case of incorporeals and other nasties. Our slaver wields a Lucerne hammer and many are the foes it's head has smashed after a brace.
|
|
I asked about the rending feat chain to see if it was deliberately excluding natural weapon rangers.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/utimateCombatRendingFuryFeatChain
The guy who wrote the feat said that he hadn't thought of this possibility, so the RAW exclusion wasn't deliberate. So it's been marked for the FAQ, and the development team will eventually give a final 'yeah or nay".
Your natural weapons become secondary attacks if you use unarmed strikes.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
That's the third paragraph on Natural Attacks on the Combat page:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html(Bolding added by me to help draw attention to the key parts.)
Eric
Your quote is incorrect, the errata for this has stated the entry from the core rulebook you are quoting has stated to use the natural attack rules from the bestiary and that they supercede the core rules on this purpose.
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.
Monks have special rules regarding their unarmed strikes that modifies it however.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Monks unarmed strikes are considered manufactured weapons and natural weapons only to beneficial effects. Unlike normal IUS users a monks unarmed strikes can be considered natural attacks so do not trigger the penalty for mixing weapons and natural attacks together.
|
|
A one level dip into Monk for Improved Unarmed Strike, a bonus feat, and +2 to all saves looks nice. Worth slowing my Ranger progression? Well, it helps me qualify for Boar Style, and if it turns out a Monk's Unarmed Strikes count as Natural Attacks, then yes... I think it is. By reading the core rulebook and bestiary, as Eric points out, it does not seem like it works that way. The wording is that it counts as Natural Attacks for the purpose of spells and such specifically, not for anything else. Can you point me to where it says otherwise? I don't see it in the Errata. 'Cause that sounds awesome if you're right.
The Lawful alignment requirement doesn't fit my character concept, but Ultimate Combat fixes that with the Martial Artist archetype, doesn't it? :D
In regards to Rending Fury, as a DM I think I will rule that it works with the Rending Claws feat in my games. I will, of course ask my DM for his ruling in his game if it comes to that.
I asked about the rending feat chain to see if it was deliberately excluding natural weapon rangers.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/utimateCombatRendingFuryFeatChain
The guy who wrote the feat said that he hadn't thought of this possibility, so the RAW exclusion wasn't deliberate. So it's been marked for the FAQ, and the development team will eventually give a final 'yeah or nay".
Your natural weapons become secondary attacks if you use unarmed strikes.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
That's the third paragraph on Natural Attacks on the Combat page:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html(Bolding added by me to help draw attention to the key parts.)
Eric
Your quote is incorrect, the errata for this has stated the entry from the core rulebook you are quoting has stated to use the natural attack rules from the bestiary and that they supercede the core rules on this purpose.
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw,...
I am building a similar character so this is so I have it straight in my head, my ranger has 2 primary claws at lvl 9 both at full BAB, if i were to level up and take a level in martial artist monk (due to alignment) my attack line (- str bonus) would be
2 claws +9, Unarmed strike +9, Unarmed Strike +4
|
|
A one level dip into Monk for Improved Unarmed Strike, a bonus feat, and +2 to all saves looks nice. Worth slowing my Ranger progression? Well, it helps me qualify for Boar Style, and if it turns out a Monk's Unarmed Strikes count as Natural Attacks, then yes... I think it is. By reading the core rulebook and bestiary, as Eric points out, it does not seem like it works that way. The wording is that it counts as Natural Attacks for the purpose of spells and such specifically, not for anything else. Can you point me to where it says otherwise? I don't see it in the Errata. 'Cause that sounds awesome if you're right.
The Lawful alignment requirement doesn't fit my character concept, but Ultimate Combat fixes that with the Martial Artist archetype, doesn't it? :D
In regards to Rending Fury, as a DM I think I will rule that it works with the Rending Claws feat in my games. I will, of course ask my DM for his ruling in his game if it comes to that.
The reason I say this is based on the original line from the monk's version of improved unarmed strike (and ONLY the monk's version).
both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve
The highlighted portion is what I call attention to. The -5 penalty is obviously not a beneficial effect so it's not going to treat it as a manufactured weapon for this effect so the penalty shouldn't apply.
Now there is a LOT of confusion and arguments on this entry under the monk's abilities but as it's written now it should be a legal interpretation.
Plus if it isn't it this corner case may inspire the Devs to issue a clarification. Either way it's a benefit to us all.
And before anyone says anything yes you normally can't mix natural attacks into a flurry but this specific feat (feral Combat Training) does allow you to do that.
@brother ehhnnzioh, exactly right. It's a bit broken but technically legal.
Feral combat training let's monks use natural weapons in flurry, and also let's you use natural weapons when feats or abilities call for unarmed strikes.
|
|
I hadn't come across the Feral Combat Training Feat yet :)
So in order to fit natural weapons into a flurry, you need to take weapon focus for each one. In this case Weapon Focus (Claws), and Weapon Focus (Bite), and then Feral Combat Training (Claws), and Feral Combat Training (Bite).
Four feats, to be able to use them in a flurry at all.
As for them not becoming secondary attacks in the specific case of the monk, I think you are still reading with too much hope as you did in the Practiced Tactician feat removing the restriction that pre-level 17 the ability is limited to the bonus teamwork feats.
eric
Wow... you actually skipped over every point I made in that post and skipped the entire Idea of what we were going after. The idea was never to get the natural attacks to go off with the Flurry of blows, it's all about getting rid of the -5 penalty... anything else is just a perk.
Now, go back and read my post again and pay attention to what was written then make your argument.
We'll wait....
|
|
I think it's pretty clear that, while the rulebook states that a monk's unarmed attacks count as natural attacks for spells and beneficial effects, it is a stretch to consider not getting a -5 to hit a beneficial effect except to those who want to "have their cake and eat it too". I think the intention is for buffs to consider it a natural attack. You can only get iterative attacks with manufactured weapons, which a monk's unarmed strikes are treated as *EXCEPT for spells and "beneficial effects"*, and using them with natural attacks makes the natural attacks secondary.
However, as Eric points out, a Monk's unarmed strike can be used with natural attacks and can be treated as such, BUT they don't benefit from iterative attacks. So: with a level of monk, my Natural Attack style L2 Ranger/L1 Monk can get one extra attack alongside his bite and claws at full base attack bonus. At Level three, say, my attack routine will be 2 Claws +6, 1 Bite +6 and 1 Knee/kick/headbutt +6.
|
Apologies for being a numpty, but if you mix Unarmed strikes with a Natural weapon is it just -5 you get to the natural weapon attacks? With the talk of -5 plus penalties for TWF etc. would it be -5 plus all those penalties (so even with the feats you end up with -7 to attack?) or is the -5 superceding everything else and so it's just a flat penalty?
Asside from theat confusion, I personally would agree that monk IUS with Natural weapon would allow you to get 4 attacks counting as Natural attacks, so no penalty, but at the same time no iterative attack. Meanwhile you could choose to use your unarmed strike as weapon attacks to get iterative attacks and then use the natural attacks as secondary.
Likel you would not bother with the iterative attacks until you get 3, because when you have two attacks it probabl is not worth one at full BAB, the second at -5 and then 3 natural attacks at -5 when you could just have for attacks at full BAB
--------
On a side note, if you really wanted extra AC, why would you not just go with the Dodge Feat as that has no stacking issues and no longer sucks like it did in DnD (where you had to specify an opponent for it to work)
Hmmm
If you want, you can also make a half orc (toothy) with 2 levels in Barbarian (Lesser Fiend Totem for a gore attack), 2 levels in ranger (Claws) and you could do the dip in monk and then keep going Ranger
By level 4, your Barbarian/Ranger combo has +4 Claw(d4)/+4 Claw(d4)/+4 Bite(d4)/+4 Gore(d6)
You COULD take improved natural attack (claw) but it IS a trap. The increase is only +1 damage on average (from d4 to d6. Big whoop) Most of your damage comes from str and Power Attack anyway.
That build gets 4 attacks at lv 4 and has full BAB. Should you ever choose a manufactured one handed weapon (Let's say you have a scimitar), you can take multiattack (which you meet the prereqs for, since you have 2 claws + 1 bite without having to rage) and by lv16 have
+16 Scimitar/+11 Scimitar/+6 Scimitar/+1 Scimitar/+14 Claw/+14 Claw/+14 Bite/+14 Gore
However, you only get to add half Str to your attacks. And if you have Power Attack, it looks more like this
+11 Scimitar/+6 Scimitar/+1 Scimitar/-4 Scimitar/+9 Claw/+9 Claw/+9 Bite/+9 Gore
So doesn't look that sexy now. Of course, bear in mind that you're also adding your Str (which is what, +4 or +5 by then naturally, plus Belt of Giant str, and then rage? so about +8?) and you have amulet of fists and maybe a wizard who can cast GMW on your weapon (i said scimitar cos of high crit range, you can use any one handed weapon though)
I'm gonna assume you don't want to dip in too many classes. So My final suggestion is ranger/barbarian for lesser fiend totem, and toothy orc racial trait
Yeah I'm guessing you haven't gotten very far in this AP.
I've done this AP already and if your GM doesn't change things much from the text as written (no GM I know wouldn't put their own spin on it) then you will meet ** spoiler omitted **
Talk to your GM and if they say they are running it as written then take my advice.As for Shapeshifter it costs you all your Favored...
Gaining Lunge as a bonus feat with a natural attacks build may be worth going Infiltrator and selecting dragon or giant as one favored enemy type as long as the rest are optimized.
Hmmm
If you want, you can also make a half orc (toothy) with 2 levels in Barbarian (Lesser Fiend Totem for a gore attack), 2 levels in ranger (Claws) and you could do the dip in monk and then keep going Ranger
By level 4, your Barbarian/Ranger combo has +4 Claw(d4)/+4 Claw(d4)/+4 Bite(d4)/+4 Gore(d6)
You COULD take improved natural attack (claw) but it IS a trap. The increase is only +1 damage on average (from d4 to d6. Big whoop) Most of your damage comes from str and Power Attack anyway.
That build gets 4 attacks at lv 4 and has full BAB. Should you ever choose a manufactured one handed weapon (Let's say you have a scimitar), you can take multiattack (which you meet the prereqs for, since you have 2 claws + 1 bite without having to rage) and by lv16 have
+16 Scimitar/+11 Scimitar/+6 Scimitar/+1 Scimitar/+14 Claw/+14 Claw/+14 Bite/+14 Gore
However, you only get to add half Str to your attacks. And if you have Power Attack, it looks more like this
+11 Scimitar/+6 Scimitar/+1 Scimitar/-4 Scimitar/+9 Claw/+9 Claw/+9 Bite/+9 Gore
So doesn't look that sexy now. Of course, bear in mind that you're also adding your Str (which is what, +4 or +5 by then naturally, plus Belt of Giant str, and then rage? so about +8?) and you have amulet of fists and maybe a wizard who can cast GMW on your weapon (i said scimitar cos of high crit range, you can use any one handed weapon though)
I'm gonna assume you don't want to dip in too many classes. So My final suggestion is ranger/barbarian for lesser fiend totem, and toothy orc racial trait
Actually he could only make one claw attack since the other hand would be holding the scimitar. But considering he's getting 4 attacks out of it I'd say it's worth it.