Psionics, as written by Dreamscarred Press, are a limited 9-level Spell Point System. You rest, refresh your pool, and then manifest your powers until you run out of points for the day, just like a wizard running out of spells.
Since my Multi-Class idea has been soundly hammered into redundancy by Elghinn Lightbringer and his fantastic multi-class archetype thread I'm now taking stock of what else the community is interested in.
One of the things I'm hearing bandied about is the interest in a COMPLETELY alternate form of Psionics, such as perhaps a spell-like ability style of advancement focusing on the styles of Psionic Mastery. Limitless use powers with limited boosting during the day that would create a new hybrid-class perhaps?
What I want from you is what you would like to see in this kind of system. What kind of abilities are psionically iconic for you? How versatile does the system need to be? Does it need more than a single class, or is the sorcerer/witch/cleric/oracle bloodline/domain/mystery/revelation model enough to satisfy? Should psionics be broken into disciplines? Should it lay alongside as another form of purely mental magic, or should it be completely separate? Should it be a Vudran-style mental mystic to parallel the monk, or a wild-talent-like sorcerous eruption in any culture at any time?
No criticisms here. Throw your ideas against the wall and we'll see what sticks.
Crown, Third Eye, Heart, Center, Sacral, Root? Elaborate!
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i had to bite my tongue, not a fan. but to be fair i will contribute as much constructive thoughts as i can.
A unique way of using the powers, i like, however they need to fall under an existing group, like spells, or spell like abilities.
Otherwise you do the massive task of reverse engineering things to work with it, otherwise the immune to psiconics becomes new monsters new classes.
so if you worked it in with points or whatever, but still called them spells, then i would be more or less okay with them.
Basically a limited selection of spells, tailored for a psionic list, then you get x amount of abilities, that draw from a pool of powers.
maybe even a template rather then a class. then add archtypes.
A unique way of using the powers, i like, however they need to fall under an existing group, like spells, or spell like abilities.
so if you worked it in with points or whatever, but still called them spells, then i would be more or less okay with them.
Thanks for your input! Good to hear. So more like the Warlock with his Invocations, right.
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hmm not sure of the warlock? point me in the right direction.
I was thinking you could split into two groups.
class and natural.
Some could have one or two one off abilities.
then you could actually have a class.
break them into a simlar school type idea, but something like damage spells, mutation spells, movement etc.
But treat them possible like spell like abilities, however to use them you must spend points from a pool, like ki, or grit.
just make their reistance liek those of divine or spell caster, then you no longer have problems.
In fact you could either do them like a traditional wizard, or sorc class, or you could make them like the Ki or grit features, just add a ton of them. as you go up levels you add new psi powers.
that way its not a masive list of powers/spells, that are either stolen from exisiting classes, have to be checked for fairness, etc...
this way you can build a cool group of powers. have them broken into types.
combat, movement, control etc...you pick a block, add feats to have more then one bloc. as you go up levels draw new powers, have a bigger psi power pool to draw from.
Please dear God! Do not turn Psionics into some bizare version of a warlock (the only 3.5 class that monks pointed and laughed at!)
In my opinion, 3.5 psionics, and later Dreamscarred, got it right, sure some of the powers did seem broken at times (but less so than the wizard I would say) but tracking spell points is far easier than tracking which spells you've cast or spell/level/day.
You do realize that whatever system you cobble up on these forums, Paizo can't use?
How so? If you read the waiver when you signed up, you come across this clause. They have the right to reproduce the material on these posts in any format.
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First i give up legal rights to any crap i might spew, really they can have it. I love paizo, and if they somehow, in a drunken stuper, stupor? (hmm spelling) think that some crap i might actually say is worth s+~& then they can have it. they have saved my favorite game, my hobby and probably my sanity.
In addition you dont need to be negative, i hate psionics, but i am trying to contribute here, why do you need to rain on their parade? really? is it something that makes you smile, and think hey i pissed on a bunch of guys chewing the fat.
yay for me. you suck. you suck hard, and you are the kind of person that ruins games for everyone else. you suck, maybe a table top game is more up your alley.
begining of the post No criticisms. try to respect other peoples contributions, at least they are trying something and not trolling for attention.
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I'd like to see a simple feats/skill psion system like the Star Wars D20 set up.
It was simple and intuitive, imho.
I love DSP's psionics, and use it in my games.
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As it was suggested earlier, the 3.5 Warlock might be a good precedent to look at for modeling things. I would also suggest looking at the DragonFire Adept in the 3.5 Dragon magic book. This is an example of a variation of the Warlock theme, where the invocations, instead of being infernally inspired, are draconically inspired and the main class ability, the eldritch blast, which is replaced with a breath weapon which scales with levels.
Perhaps taking the psionic disciplines, and seeing which powers might make good “invocations” and then thinking of a good Dicipline defining power, which can scale.
Possible example- A telepath…..he has invocations that are well “telepathic in nature”
Such as Esp “ reading surface thoughts” and mind scanning “ reading memory” and “mind linking” for group comunicatoin, and of course invocatiosn that aree like the charm to dominate powers. Also a set of invocations, that relies on drawing out peoples fears…….and some invocations that are illusionary powers, where the telepath, is fooling other peoples perceptions into seeing illusions.
Perhaps the Eldrich blast, could be something like, the telepath is making people believe they have been damaged, and it could scale, lpeople could believe they have been burned, swarmed by rats (fears), there are lots of possibilities.
Perhaps the Telekenetic, could have all sorts of well “telekinetic” invocations. Flight invocations, levitation, controlling bodies, huring objcects, Perhaps some invisibility, Perhaps some energy invocations. Etc.
Perhaps his eldritch blast could be a scaling blast of telekinetic force.
Perhaps a Psychmetablist could have his invocation deal with increasing ability points, healing, shape shifiting, getting bestial claws to attack,
Maby his eldritch blast could be poison or acid he breaths, or projects out in some manner.
I hope this helps.
Dreamscarred Press.
The re-worked the Expanded Psionic handbook from 3.5 and updated it for pathfinder.
www.dreamscarredpress.com
I have all these sources and have played most of them. Keep the suggestions coming. I have limitless inspiration, but I need boundaries to create something. What do YOU want out of the system. Obviously I can't do all of it, some of these ideas being mutually exclusive, but I can cherry-pick the best of it.
So far we've heard:
*Skill/Feat Based Psionics (eg D20 Star Wars)
*Unlimited Use Spell-like Abilities (Warlock/Witch Invocation/Hex)
*Ki/Grit Powers with an extremely expanded pool
"Psionic Flavors" include:
*Telekinetic Blasting
*Telepathic Mind Control
*Telekinetic Manipulation
*(Psychometabolism as a Discipline?)
Just to be clear... -I LIKE DREAMSCARRED PRESS TOO!-. As far as 3rd party stuff is concerned, I think there's no one better. I have a subscription to their advanced psionics stuff, and own the PDF of their basic system. But I hear people asking for something else, and I want to know just how may of them are out there, and what else they might want. This all spun off a request for a non-vancian style that wasn't just the standing spellcasting system reflavored.
I would really like to see something more like 2nd Ed psionics without the brokeness.
3.0/3.5/PF psionics has always felt too much like wizards with another name. Hell, you could make a psionic bloodline for sorcerers, and you would get are very similar character to a Psion.
-I would love to see a return of attack/defense modes.
-I would love to see powers come in chains that are similar to feat chain in functionality
-Wild Talents
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again i think if you create a whole new power system there is the problem of reengineering everythign else, monsters, pcs, etc...
i think having a gunslinger styled pscionic class is much more palatable, rather then wiping everything out and building a whole new system in.
but this also means will there be unique creatures? can anyone have psi? like can a fighter have a 1% chance of being psi? then is it a class, or is it a template like vampire?
that is another opition, psi as a template.
+1 to skill based (IE Star Wars d20). Though, I think there should be a separate skill point pool for them, because splitting your skill points up for force skills seemed kinda harsh. (Unfortunately, I have never actually played a SWd20 game. D: )
If there was a way to do spells that way, too, that'd be really cool, but I don't ever see it happening.
again i think if you create a whole new power system there is the problem of reengineering everythign else, monsters, pcs, etc...
i think having a gunslinger styled pscionic class is much more palatable, rather then wiping everything out and building a whole new system in.
I can handle it. I wouldn't change the way things work, I'd just put new MAD options into it.
Want to play a:
*Telepath? High Int.
*Metacreative? High Cha.
*Biokinetic? High Con.
*Egoist? High Str.
*Clairsentient? High Wis.
*Psychoportive? High Dex.
Want to use a power you're not specced for? Okay, but it has lower Save DC/Effectiveness than the other powers do... Stay within your chosen Disciplines if you want the real benefits.
Attack/Defense modes were specific telepathic combat options for getting into an opponents brain in order to be able to exploit their weaknesses. If it wasn't such a *tacked on* system, it would have been fantastic, but as it stood it was a whole new unique combat style that everyone else was unprepared for.
Id Insinuation > Ego Fortress > Mind Thrust > Psychic Blank > Ego Whip > Unfocus > Thought Crush
Or something like that... I could easily do something like that with opposed attribute/saving throws, or bonuses to the attribute check based on the highest level spell prepared (sorry Fighters...)... but it once again feels a bit tacked on. I'll see more about what people have to say before making a decision. The Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock issue of Attack/Defense Modes may be a topic for a separate thread.
+1 to skill based (IE Star Wars d20). Though, I think there should be a separate skill point pool for them, because splitting your skill points up for force skills seemed kinda harsh. (Unfortunately, I have never actually played a SWd20 game. D: )
If there was a way to do spells that way, too, that'd be really cool, but I don't ever see it happening.
That's also not a bad idea. Having a few new statistics based on your Disciplines:
Control benefits Telepathy and Egoism.
Power benefits Egoism and Metacreativity.
Clarity benefits Telepathy and Clairsentience.
Sense benefits Clairsentience and Psychoportation.
Alter benefits Metacreativity and Biokinetics.
Focus benefits Psychoportation and Biokinetics.
Start off with your Wis mod (minimum 1) in points, and treat them like a seperate skill list.
"I want to port over onto that ledge." Make a Focus roll and result/5 is your squares traveled.
"I want to teleport away." Make a Sense roll, the result is your distance in miles. You take those miles in damage, with a focus roll reducing the damage taken.
D20 StarWars cost you your hitpoints to use, yes? But Saga Edition didn't?
I could easily come up with 2-3 uses for each of the skills (which can be used trained only, and only trained with the feat/s required to get them), and then a host of 10-15 powers that use one or both of those skills. It would be no more complex than creating a few dozen new spells or feats, and they could easily be supported with additional traits and effects available only to Psychics that others couldn't ever access without multiclassing.
It bears considering.
+1 to skill based (IE Star Wars d20). Though, I think there should be a separate skill point pool for them, because splitting your skill points up for force skills seemed kinda harsh. (Unfortunately, I have never actually played a SWd20 game. D: )
If there was a way to do spells that way, too, that'd be really cool, but I don't ever see it happening.
That's also not a bad idea. Having a few new statistics based on your Disciplines:
Control benefits Telepathy and Egoism.
Power benefits Egoism and Metacreativity.
Clarity benefits Telepathy and Clairsentience.
Sense benefits Clairsentience and Psychoportation.
Alter benefits Metacreativity and Biokinetics.
Focus benefits Psychoportation and Biokinetics.Start off with your Wis mod (minimum 1) in points, and treat them like a seperate skill list.
"I want to port over onto that ledge." Make a Focus roll and result/5 is your squares traveled.
"I want to teleport away." Make a Sense roll, the result is your distance in miles. You take those miles in damage, with a focus roll reducing the damage taken.
D20 StarWars cost you your hitpoints to use, yes? But Saga Edition didn't?
I could easily come up with 2-3 uses for each of the skills (which can be used trained only, and only trained with the feat/s required to get them), and then a host of 10-15 powers that use one or both of those skills. It would be no more complex than creating a few dozen new spells or feats, and they could easily be supported with additional traits and effects available only to Psychics that others couldn't ever access without multiclassing.
It bears considering.
I think you could have an arcane pool-like thing or ki points but use them to buy power skills.
Crown, Third Eye, Heart, Center, Sacral, Root? Elaborate!
The chakra you are missing is throat. And I think that could be an interesting class feature if you are building a class that is focused on the disciplined monk style psion. Each chakra "opens" at a certain level, grants a bonus to the character. In fact, that could even work as a psionic prestige class for those with a ki pool (monks and ninjas). Seven levels, with each one expanding the ki pool, allowing new abilities, etc.
However, if you want a new straight up base class, I'm thinking the warlock idea is the way to go. Everything is in terms of spell-like and supernatural abilities. They focus on telekinesis, telepathy, clairvoyance. If you can somehow combine this with the ki pool idea, you have got a class that links up with monk and ninja and then the above prestige class can still work.
In fact, you can make your control, power, clarity, etc., work as your schools of spell-like abilities. You cast things like teleport at a base caster level, and you can increase the caster level with ki points. Then damage spell-like abilities are directly increased by your ki pool, but you can always use a base-line power.
*EDIT: Semi-ninja'd by Kryzbyn. But hopefully my elaboration on those ideas can help.
D20 StarWars cost you your hitpoints to use, yes? But Saga Edition didn't?
I have the Revised Core Rulebook, but I can't say about the saga edition (as I understand it, that game is focused more on the minis). They use Vitality (calculated similarly to normal HP) and Wounds (your Con score). Force powers usually cost Vitality points, yes, but it's generally a small amount from what I can tell.
Myself I would like to see something feat based, similar to psychic powers from Cthulhu d20 (maybe with some sort of power points to replace eventual Wisdom and Sanity loss). I never liked 3.0/3.5 psionics as they bothered me as another variant of spells instead of psychic powers. I would loike them to be complete separate kinds of abilities.
Skill-based would be interesting but it would be terrible drain on skill points rendering psionics generally unskilled individuals.
Myself I would like to see something feat based, similar to psychic powers from Cthulhu d20 (maybe with some sort of power points to replace eventual Wisdom and Sanity loss). I never liked 3.0/3.5 psionics as they bothered me as another variant of spells instead of psychic powers. I would loike them to be complete separate kinds of abilities.
Skill-based would be interesting but it would be terrible drain on skill points rendering psionics generally unskilled individuals.
Not trying to goad you into an argument or anything, but that side-effect could be easily circumvented.
Just give more skill points per level a la Rogue, the Psion would not step on the Rogue's shoes because the Psion would need to spend her points in her psionic skills, only ever investing in some key skills like perception or some spare points for knowledge skills.
Other option mentioned previously would be to give them a special skill point progression, it sounds weird and daunting but it's basically give them the desired amount of skill points per level to use in normal skills available to any character, and then give them a desired amount of skill points only usable on this special psionic skills, as mentioned previously, this is akin to the Ki Pool or something similar, the difference here is that the Psionic Skills would be entirely new(not that hard to do) instead of enhancing regular skills.
For what is worth, I really liked Purplefixer's idea, but instead of a new subset of stats I would like the Psionic Skills to key of the regular stats, like what you had going with the "want to play a Telepath? high CHA, etc." idea earlier in the thread.
I would like to see something similar to the 2nd Edition Psionics. I made a thread tossing the idea out and it went dead in a hurry, and I didn't press the issue.
I've come up with a few ideas:
- I replaced the power score / natural 20 mechanics with something similar to overchannel with a backlash result.
- Sciences are the equivalent to 4th to 7th level spells that can be overchanneled to 8th or 9th level equivalent.
- Devotions are the equivalent to 0th to 3rd level spells that can be overchanneled to 4th or maybe 5th level equivalent.
- Psionic Powers would now have saving throws, as they should have had in 2nd Edition.
Problems so far:
- How to balance a powerful science at first level (such as Dimensional Door).
- The exact nature of the overchannel (or surge) / Back Lash. I want the extra effect to be Power Specific, but I think the backlash would be easier being Discipline Specific (going blind and deaf for Clairsentience, representing a pushing of the senses).
- Power point cost. Specifically, Initial Costs and Maintenance costs.
This is about as far as I gotten so far.
Other option mentioned previously would be to give them a special skill point progression, it sounds weird and daunting but it's basically give them the desired amount of skill points per level to use in normal skills available to any character, and then give them a desired amount of skill points only usable on this special psionic skills, as mentioned previously, this is akin to the Ki Pool or something similar, the difference here is that the Psionic Skills would be entirely new(not that hard to do) instead of enhancing regular skills.
And then, let them change it each day when they center their psionic focus/prepare spells?
"Today I need to be ready to blast stuff to bits with my mind! Better focus on my Power..."
I have the Revised Core Rulebook, but I can't say about the saga edition (as I understand it, that game is focused more on the minis). They use Vitality (calculated similarly to normal HP) and Wounds (your Con score). Force powers usually cost Vitality points, yes, but it's generally a small amount from what I can tell.
Saga was no more mini-focused than its previous d20 incarnation. Force powers in Saga were "per encounter" use. If you had "Force Slam" say, you could use it once during any given encounter, unless you'd taken it more than once (and so on). You acquired force powers by taking a feat which gave you Wisdom+1 force powers each time you took it. The effects of a force power were based on your skill roll, and there were various talents (as per d20 modern) that allowed you to recover force powers during an encounter, subject to limitations.
The vitality cost powers of the previous star wars d20 game were monsterously unpopular with all the groups I ever encountered. I'm sure there are people out there that loved it and all, but there are at least as many people who hated it, which makes it an iffy system to base something new on - especially since hit points, like vitality, are not in abundant supply for "caster" classes.
OK, thoughts thus far...
- if you plan to tie in a specific discipline into a particular Ability score, go over the psionics for 3.0 first. That is where it was originally done in the third edition format. While it had potential and I personally liked the concept a lot, the mechanics were probably lacking. Maybe you only gain a 1st level power from your discipline a number of times per day equal to your Ability modifier.
- the chakra points idea is something that intrigues me. While mostly fluff-related in relation to the present iteration of psionics, it does lead to interesting directions that could be a prestige class, or archtype, or even a new class altoghter. Tying it into the monk also is something that should be seriously considered. Their Ki points were something I always considered rather Psionic in nature ever since they first showed up during the PF playtest.
- your thoughts on adjusting where they center their psionic focus after a night of rest could be easily used, it just means setting up a system that you think would work. Like, each level gives you a 'rank' (like a skill system) to place into a discipline, or chakra point, or whatever, of your choice, and you rearrange your points however you want during meditating. Each point would be used to determine the damage, power level, save target. Maybe your corresponding Ability modifier could be how many times you can use that discipline during that day. However that leads to it's own problems. Could be fun to try though. Or possibly an Ability check to verify the success of the power, ala 2nd edition. This could have a side effect of getting rid of power points if done correctly.
- If you were to throw "vitality" into the mix, you should probably only do it when the player character fails, like through a successful saving throw causing mental backlash or some such. As Voodoomike said, tho, not recommended.
All I got right now...
Saga was no more mini-focused than its previous d20 incarnation.
I didn't really know that for sure. I thought I read it somewhere. Might have gotten it confused with something else, though.
The vitality cost powers of the previous star wars d20 game were monsterously unpopular with all the groups I ever encountered. I'm sure there are people out there that loved it and all, but there are at least as many people who hated it, which makes it an iffy system to base something new on - especially since hit points, like vitality, are not in abundant supply for "caster" classes.
Honestly, I'd rather spend Vitality points to use the force than to arbitrarily say "Well, I can only force push this guy once, until we stop fighting and start again." And having to spend feats to do that sounds awful when the force is so expansive and the uses are many. Besides, what is force push but normal telekinesis used with blunt ferocity?
I like the force skills much better, all drawbacks considered.
the chakra points idea is something that intrigues me. While mostly fluff-related in relation to the present iteration of psionics, it does lead to interesting directions that could be a prestige class, or archtype, or even a new class altoghter. Tying it into the monk also is something that should be seriously considered. Their Ki points were something I always considered rather Psionic in nature ever since they first showed up during the PF playtest.
When I see people talk about chakra points it makes me think of the 3.5 incarnum magic system which was based around chakra binding. Certainly that's not what most people think of when they hear the term "psionics", though it certainly qualifies for the "I just want a totally different magic system" people, I suppose.
As with anything, if you stray too far from core you end up with the problem of retrofitting your campaign setting to deal with it.
Honestly, I'd rather spend Vitality points to use the force than to arbitrarily say "Well, I can only force push this guy once, until we stop fighting and start again." And having to spend feats to do that sounds awful when the force is so expansive and the uses are many. Besides, what is force push but normal telekinesis used with blunt ferocity?
That's a bit of a straw-man.. as I said, there exist talents that allow you to recover expended abilities during an encounter, and nothing prevents you from taking "Force Push" more than once so that you have it ready to use multiple times during a fight. Encounter-level abilities are hardly different than expended spells in the current system. If a wizard has only memorized fireball once that day, then he can only fireball once until he rests. Similarly, how often did you see Jedi "force pushing" over and over during any given battle? Typically they used it to deal with an oncoming group and then ran in to fight.
Burning hitpoints in order to be given a chance to roll a dice to maybe use a power.. it was a bad system and an unpopular one, which is why it didn't survive the system transition.
Now, I'm not saying that its an either/or scenario as far as psionics go. I am, in fact, one of the people who doesn't think there's a good reason to create an entirely new system for what has traditionally been nothing more than an alternative form of caster. If we want to do that then just write it as an alternative spellcasting system that can be used by ANY caster if the GM likes it, and then still declare psions to be a variant sorcerer, rather than requiring psions to use the alternate system to be little more than a variant sorcerer, but one that has to track spellpoints.
Other option mentioned previously would be to give them a special skill point progression, it sounds weird and daunting but it's basically give them the desired amount of skill points per level to use in normal skills available to any character, and then give them a desired amount of skill points only usable on this special psionic skills, as mentioned previously, this is akin to the Ki Pool or something similar, the difference here is that the Psionic Skills would be entirely new(not that hard to do) instead of enhancing regular skills.And then, let them change it each day when they center their psionic focus/prepare spells?
"Today I need to be ready to blast stuff to bits with my mind! Better focus on my Power..."
If you wish to give them some versatility and allow them to suit up to the occasion as they see fit.
Personally I was thinking more like Skills, meaning:
1.- A Psionic would gain proficiency with all Psionic Skills.
2.- A Psionic may invest in as many Psionic Skills as he/she sees fit.
3.- Psionic skills key off after ability scores, making the stat build of a Psionic more inclined to be better at some Psionic Skills than others.
I wouldn't think restrictions would be necessary, the finite number of Skill Points for Psionic Skills and the relevant ability scores would be enough to present a choice about being specialized or well-rounded.
This way we avoid having powers per day or anything similar, they can use their Psionic Skills as much as they want, but the Psionic Skills(much like regular skills) would have a finite number of specific ways to use the skill, so no Psionic can really do everything at the same capacity.
A Psionic that spreads her Psionic Skills and stats may be average at everything, but would not compare to a "pure" CHA based Telepath that invested only in the Psionic Skills relevant to CHA and the role he/she wants to play as a Psionic.
I don't know... I really like skills and skill checks and really like Psionics, and I hate the idea that you somehow are born with these awesome abilities but for some reason you can only use them an arbitrary number of times per day seems silly to me. I like the idea that a Telepath can Autohipnotize herself to not feel pain as her enemies torture her, but how much she can resist would really depend on her training on autohipnotizing herself away from pain(read:ranks in the skill)
IMHO anyways...
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Crown, Third Eye, Heart, Center, Sacral, Root? Elaborate!
A Chakra Based Psionic System
Lets call STR, INT, WIS, CHA, CON, DEX our Chakras and their value will be the limit of Points you can allocate against them when activating a power.
Specific TEEP abilities would require the expenditure of points against particular CHAKRAS. Say Project Image requires the expenditure of 10 charisma points - now if you have Charisma 16, then your Charisma chakra is muddied and unusable until you spend time meditating to cleanse your aura. This is important because until you do cleanse your aura you have 6 Charisma. That can be important if you were planning on leading your army into battle and commanding your generals.
The precise cost of cleansing your aura might mean days per point revitalized meditating or it might require something else. perhaps recovery of points per day equal to Psionicist level.
Now consider The difference between Sun-yi Charisma 13 and Dor the Tyrant Charisma 25:
Sun-yi creates a Lesser Projected Image which appears as a floating form local to the PC and warns them they must make for the temple of Thok to retrieve the Crown of Fresnip.
Dor the Tyrant on the other hand creates a Greater Projected Image where his giant Head is floating above the whole Kingdom and he declares to all that the Kingdom has fallen and those who still stand against him will perish.
It means that depending on which Ability stat is advanced in points over exp, the psionicist can focus on abilities associates with particular stats...
Legendary Kobolds came with an aura of Ill Luck, while Gobelin means invisible behind cloth. Both might be charisma based psionic abilities and considering the Gremlin is seen as the converging offspring of both these races - having an aura of ill luck and invisibility...he is even a more powerful psionic.
So idea threads within this meta-idea-thread...
*A skill based (or separate skill-like) system.
*An invocation-style unlimited use spell-like ability system.
*An 'attribute fueled' system from a limited pool.
*Utilize the 'ki pool'.
The only part about the attribute damage that I need to bring up is that game designers of wiser and greater talent than I have realized that rewriting monster stats over and over and over and over as the damage to ability scores mounts is a -pain in the tuchus-.
I might have a consistent pool of points based on the attribute, but I would only have them deal attribute damage during a backlash/overcharge/bodyfuel kind of situation.
It still goes on the table though, because we're not rejecting anything out of hand in this thread!
To address Nos's concerns about rewriting the entire game, this would be no different than adding the Witch or Oracle to the game system. I am looking at a CLASS with unique class mechanics no different from the Gunslinger and Witch. The system has to nest neatly within the Pathfinder rules as presented, and any character who wants them could take 'manifester levels' or 'wild talent feats' to gain access to psychic powers. I think it is obvious that if you want to play a full class fighter, you should be able to do so, and still have SOME access to the powers of the psychic if you have a natural talent, and that the kind of access that entails is no different from any of the minor magic feats available to characters in any number of sourcebooks.
More people seem to be leaning toward skill-based system at the moment, and I am chomping at the bit to write something, but I'm going to let this thread marinate until next Saturday. So until then, now's your chance to be heard... No idea will be rejected, anything can be discussed, let's hear what YOU want from psychic powers.
So idea threads within this meta-idea-thread...
*A skill based (or separate skill-like) system.
*An invocation-style unlimited use spell-like ability system.
*An 'attribute fueled' system from a limited pool.
*Utilize the 'ki pool'.The only part about the attribute damage that I need to bring up is that game designers of wiser and greater talent than I have realized that rewriting monster stats over and over and over and over as the damage to ability scores mounts is a -pain in the tuchus-.
I might have a consistent pool of points based on the attribute, but I would only have them deal attribute damage during a backlash/overcharge/bodyfuel kind of situation.
It still goes on the table though, because we're not rejecting anything out of hand in this thread!
To address Nos's concerns about rewriting the entire game, this would be no different than adding the Witch or Oracle to the game system. I am looking at a CLASS with unique class mechanics no different from the Gunslinger and Witch. The system has to nest neatly within the Pathfinder rules as presented, and any character who wants them could take 'manifester levels' or 'wild talent feats' to gain access to psychic powers. I think it is obvious that if you want to play a full class fighter, you should be able to do so, and still have SOME access to the powers of the psychic if you have a natural talent, and that the kind of access that entails is no different from any of the minor magic feats available to characters in any number of sourcebooks.
More people seem to be leaning toward skill-based system at the moment, and I am chomping at the bit to write something, but I'm going to let this thread marinate until next Saturday. So until then, now's your chance to be heard... No idea will be rejected, anything can be discussed, let's hear what YOU want from psychic powers.
I support pretty much everything in this post, specially the parts about keeping the ability damage but only as a backlash, maybe dependent on how much you fail your check, thus keeping the novices from trying to fly too high or else crash and burn. It also helps avoiding the infinite uses but still let's the Psionic have a competence level she can achieve and clear idea of problems she can solve reliably.
Also, letting other classes dip in Psionic powers without being Psionic themselves or properly dipping into the psionic class(ses), being Wild Talent or Basic Training or something like that would be in order and even would turn out pretty cool. However, I think they should never be as competent using them as proper psionic class. Be it giving less points so it's more strict, rank cap, only certain skills, only certain uses, diminished results, whatever, it should never overshadow a true psionic in this only aspect.
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Actually I think all of what is being discussed thusfar is progressing toward Feat based Psionics.
Aura of ill Luck [Charisma 13+, Level 1+]: Forces any target within 10' to reroll any sucessful dice roll for a chance it was a failure.
Invisibility [Charisma 18+, Level 3+]: Invisible to those of less Charisma.
Glamour [Charisma 15+, Level 1+]: Can appear as anything other than the reality. Allows ugly faries who look like exoskeletal pirana with dragonfly wings to look like beautiful miniature humans with butterfly wings.
The Problem is how long/often can you repeatedly use a Feat?
Honestly, I'd rather spend Vitality points to use the force than to arbitrarily say "Well, I can only force push this guy once, until we stop fighting and start again." And having to spend feats to do that sounds awful when the force is so expansive and the uses are many. Besides, what is force push but normal telekinesis used with blunt ferocity?That's a bit of a straw-man.. as I said, there exist talents that allow you to recover expended abilities during an encounter, and nothing prevents you from taking "Force Push" more than once so that you have it ready to use multiple times during a fight. Encounter-level abilities are hardly different than expended spells in the current system. If a wizard has only memorized fireball once that day, then he can only fireball once until he rests. Similarly, how often did you see Jedi "force pushing" over and over during any given battle? Typically they used it to deal with an oncoming group and then ran in to fight.
Burning hitpoints in order to be given a chance to roll a dice to maybe use a power.. it was a...
Straw man? Hardly. It's a personal preference. I wasn't remotely trying to start a debate with you over which system is better, because I simply do not care. I equate what you described with 4th edition encounter powers (possibly with feats that allow multiple uses) which I abhor. If you think it's better, that's fine by me. I don't prefer that system, though.
The question I posited at the end of the quote there was rhetorical, I wasn't inviting debate. Again, if your opinion differs, I respect that.
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Well, apparently I somehow managed to distinguish myself in another recent psionics thread (typos and all!), so, here I go hoping not to make a fool of myself here!
Second: I talk way too much and, as has become my habit at another forum, I've taken to placing things in swap texts (spoiler tags, here) so that you can skip to the things you're interested in.
Third: If I pull out a specific quote, I'm not calling on that person personally, regardless of what I think of their arguments or points, but their post is the best and most concise way to structure my own comments on. I mean no disrespect to anyone, although my words often look cold to me on screen, I usually suggest reading them with a wry (not sarcastic or biting), warm voice - that's how they're intended anyway.
Fourth: if I argue against something, it's not with the purpose of arguing or calling someone else's (is this wrong? spell check doesn't like it) idea "bad" - it's for the purpose of generally reasoning together. I can also be wrong, so, you know, I'm aware of that!
Fifth: also, I'm typing this around a baby's schedule and a complete lack of sleep, so if I'm terribly out-of-fashion by the time this gets posted, seem distracted, or make bad points: oops. My bad!
So idea threads within this meta-idea-thread...
*A skill based (or separate skill-like) system.
*An invocation-style unlimited use spell-like ability system.
*An 'attribute fueled' system from a limited pool.
*Utilize the 'ki pool'.The only part about the attribute damage that I need to bring up is that game designers of wiser and greater talent than I have realized that rewriting monster stats over and over and over and over as the damage to ability scores mounts is a -pain in the tuchus-.
I might have a consistent pool of points based on the attribute, but I would only have them deal attribute damage during a backlash/overcharge/bodyfuel kind of situation.
It still goes on the table though, because we're not rejecting anything out of hand in this thread!
To address Nos's concerns about rewriting the entire game, this would be no different than adding the Witch or Oracle to the game system. I am looking at a CLASS with unique class mechanics no different from the Gunslinger and Witch. The system has to nest neatly within the Pathfinder rules as presented, and any character who wants them could take 'manifester levels' or 'wild talent feats' to gain access to psychic powers. I think it is obvious that if you want to play a full class fighter, you should be able to do so, and still have SOME access to the powers of the psychic if you have a natural talent, and that the kind of access that entails is no different from any of the minor magic feats available to characters in any number of sourcebooks.
More people seem to be leaning toward skill-based system at the moment, and I am chomping at the bit to write something, but I'm going to let this thread marinate until next Saturday. So until then, now's your chance to be heard... No idea will be rejected, anything can be discussed, let's hear what YOU want from psychic powers.
First, some good concepts here over-all, however, I have several cautions to make.
Actually I think all of what is being discussed thusfar is progressing toward Feat based Psionics.
Aura of ill Luck [Charisma 13+, Level 1+]: Forces any target within 10' to reroll any sucessful dice roll for a chance it was a failure.
Invisibility [Charisma 18+, Level 3+]: Invisible to those of less Charisma.
Glamour [Charisma 15+, Level 1+]: Can appear as anything other than the reality. Allows ugly faries who look like exoskeletal pirana with dragonfly wings to look like beautiful miniature humans with butterfly wings.The Problem is how long/often can you repeatedly use a Feat?
You know i seem to remember Green Ronin put together something called the "Psychic", which was an alternate to the point based 3.5 psionics. I don't have the book, but i think i dimly remember it was 'skill'based, more closely to the 2nd edition psionics. That might be something worth looking up.
However it still has the caveat that Pathfinder doesn't really work that way, and if we're going to mesh this puppy with Pathfinder, we need to look at how Pathfinder handles things. Carefully look at the skill-feat-spell/power progression from 3.0 to Pathfinder. The game has distinctly been moving away from using skills-as-mystical powers, while broadening the ability of skills in general. Once you had the Scry skill that was necessary to use an entire sub-set of spells. Now you don't. Once you had Listen, Read Lips, Search, and Spot. Now you have Perception.
Magical energies still interact with skills - fabricate and craft for example - but they don't generally require skills or, if they do, you can do it without the magic, only more slowly. Further, except for special exceptions (such as Rogue Talents) feats or similar special abilities don't grant magical powers to those that don't already have them anymore - or if they do (again, such as Rogue Talents) they only grant them minor abilities with limited uses.
Building an entire class around that would be very difficult. Even with something like the rogue, who has tons of skills and lots of special abilities, it's not the rogue bonus talents from which they gain their greatest power: it's their 'everyrogue' abilities.
Now, again, I'm not saying that this won't work. In fact, now that Paizo has redone the rules of skills and feats, it could work quite well. What I am saying, however, is that it doesn't feel like the rest of Pathfinder the way the Oracle and Witch (to use previously mentioned classes) do.
Next, let's look at 3.0, MAD, and daily adjustments.
OK, thoughts thus far...
- if you plan to tie in a specific discipline into a particular Ability score, go over the psionics for 3.0 first. That is where it was originally done in the third edition format. While it had potential and I personally liked the concept a lot, the mechanics were probably lacking. Maybe you only gain a 1st level power from your discipline a number of times per day equal to your Ability modifier.
...
- your thoughts on adjusting where they center their psionic focus after a night of rest could be easily used, it just means setting up a system that you think would work. Like, each level gives you a 'rank' (like a skill system) to place into a discipline, or chakra point, or whatever, of your choice, and you rearrange your points however you want during meditating. Each point would be used to determine the damage, power level, save target. Maybe your corresponding Ability modifier could be how many times you can use that discipline during that day. However that leads to it's own problems. Could be fun to try though. Or possibly an Ability check to verify the success of the power, ala 2nd edition. This could have a side effect of getting rid of power points if done correctly.- If you were to throw "vitality" into the mix, you should probably only do it when the player character fails, like through a successful saving throw causing mental backlash or some such. As Voodoomike said, tho, not recommended.
First, on Combat Modes (or similar): 3.0 was broken. Badly. I've seen the various modes bandied about here, which honestly is a really neat concept, but unless you have an excellent way of bypassing the randomized "rock/paper/scissors-ABILITY DAMAGE-OR-STUN" aspect of said modes or anything similarly frustrating I'd strongly recommend against it.
Secondly, on MAD: Again, Multiple Attribute Dependency is something Paizo has strongly tried to move away from. Paladins now require Charisma instead of Wisdom for many of their abilities, and just to shut that avenue down further, they gain a good will save AND various mental immunities. MAD still exists, of course, but Paizo, and Pathfinder, have worked hard to reduce its presence in any sort of class-related set of special features. Thus, it comes as a strong recommendation that this be avoided for psionics too. If MAD is intentionally and heavily placed into any sort of a system, it will be rejected strongly by the community, many of whom already have problems with 'psionics' in the first place. Causing the six different disciplines to be tied to six different ability scores was very cool in a number of ways, but it's just not a good idea in the end.
Third, on daily adjustment: I don't have all the Pathfinder books, so I could be wrong, but it seems that it's come down very hard against the ability to adjust your selected set of daily abilities, UNLESS it's the Vancian fire-and-forget system for witches and wizards, which, obviously, is exactly what this thread is attempting to avoid. I seem to recall (although I could easily be wrong) some problems with classes like factotums, chameleons, and the like who could shift their class ability choices around.
That said, of the potentially problem-prone elements I've seen bandied about, this could - if handled very carefully - still work and (importantly!) still feel like Pathfinder. It's not a Vancian system, but it does have some similarities. The extreme difficulty would lie in balancing the nature of each day's choices so that a choice could still be valid on any given day, but would not be over-powered, and there would be reason to choose things other than the "I BLOW STUFF UP!" focus. Nonetheless, this could have promise. It would need to feel Vancian (and thus Pathfinder) without being Vancian (and thus not what we're looking for) and be balanced with Vancian (not too powerful, not too weak). Tall order, but doable.
Finally, let's look at the Seven Chakra, and the monk (and other classes as bases).
Crown, Third Eye, Heart, Center, Sacral, Root? Elaborate!
The chakra you are missing is throat. And I think that could be an interesting class feature if you are building a class that is focused on the disciplined monk style psion. Each chakra "opens" at a certain level, grants a bonus to the character. In fact, that could even work as a psionic prestige class for those with a ki pool (monks and ninjas). Seven levels, with each one expanding the ki pool, allowing new abilities, etc.
However, if you want a new straight up base class, I'm thinking the warlock idea is the way to go. Everything is in terms of spell-like and supernatural abilities. They focus on telekinesis, telepathy, clairvoyance. If you can somehow combine this with the ki pool idea, you have got a class that links up with monk and ninja and then the above prestige class can still work.
In fact, you can make your control, power, clarity, etc., work as your schools of spell-like abilities. You cast things like teleport at a base caster level, and you can increase the caster level with ki points. Then damage spell-like abilities are directly increased by your ki pool, but you can always use a base-line power.
*EDIT: Semi-ninja'd by Kryzbyn. But hopefully my elaboration on those ideas can help.
- the chakra points idea is something that intrigues me. While mostly fluff-related in relation to the present iteration of psionics, it does lead to interesting directions that could be a prestige class, or archtype, or even a new class altoghter. Tying it into the monk also is something that should be seriously considered. Their Ki points were something I always considered rather Psionic in nature ever since they first showed up during the PF playtest.
Using the seven Chakra is a fantastic base, however doing so would eliminate any ability to tie it to the six ability scores (unless we added the dreaded, horrible, terrible, awful SEVENTH ability score. Hint: don't.). Each chakra would have to be associated with a particular element of power the manifester could delve into. For example: the crown could be kinetic abilities, the third eye could be extra-sensory abilities, the throat might be telepathic abilities, and the heart, central, sacral, and root might each have their own (creative force, movement, and defenses come to mind). Please note, I have no idea if any of these even make sense with the Chakra - I don't know chakra that well, or what each represents. I'm just throwing this off the top of my head. Chakra could be part of the over-all progression (gain one, then another, then another, etc) or it could be a base from which progression springs (choose one: that is your discipline).
The monk, ninja (does this exist in Pathfinder), warlock/dragonfire adept (under a different name and with vastly refurbished rules, tied to a ki-pool and using it), and oracle (with their increasing unlocked mysteries) could all be examples to look at when designing. Tying it with existing classes and making it work similarly to those classes (even if it simultaneously "looks" or "feels" very different) is probably the best way to go. Utilizing a blend of the minor at-will with the ki-pool modification will in some way seem similar to power points, even while being different and will tie it into a more Vudra-esque "monk-like" ideal. The real trick will be balancing it with other magical characters.
I'm sorry I don't have more advice to give than that. These thoughts are written down mostly to just weigh in on what works better or not, based off of play experience. I'm fully aware, for example, that none here would call us to the 3.0 era again, but I caution while using that as an example because of some similar ideas.
I have been a fan of psionics since the 1e days (during which I really preferred the material presented in Dragon magazine than the core books), and I've done my best to make every incarnation work within the existing edition (and each edition brought its own challenges for this).
I've crafted my own systems for psionics in 1e, 2e, and 3.5e, and haven't had the time to do anything with 4e or Pathfinder.
In every case, I was after something. Sometimes it was elusive, sometimes it was clear, but it was always something. My influences varied from Star Wars, to the sorcerer from Eddings, from an over-indulgence in goofy ESP books as a kid, to classic pyromancer movie tropes.
So, my question for everyone here is: What are you after?
What are you trying to capture with a psionics system? Is there some unified something that you're after? Is there some broader spectrum of things that you'd like to bring together under one not-quite-magic umbrella?
I think that defining this could help in the ultimate realization of the goal (whether it's a feat system, a skill system, a hybrid of feats and skills, a point system or anything else).
Dave
If you go with a skill-based system, look at the Truenamer and the Truenamer optimization threads on the WotC forums for pit falls to avoid. While Pathfinder may not have some of th issues yet, we never know what they're going to put out.
I'd like to see a simple feats/skill psion system like the Star Wars D20 set up.
It was simple and intuitive, imho.I love DSP's psionics, and use it in my games.
The Star Wars Saga method of using Force Powers on a "Number of Times Per Encounter" basis would fly pretty well if we could make it dovetail into the rest of the PFRPG system. Unfortunately, Pathfinder still uses the Per-Diem-Powers sacred cow, which doesn't show any sign of dying soon (and still leads to the 2-hour adventuring day).
I'm going to need Psionics soon in my game world. I really should pick up DSP's book. :(
I'm getting the feeling that this thread is out-of-context and referring to an ongoing discussion I probably started ignoring at some point.
Purplefixer, am I understanding... you want/plan to write some RPG crunch of some meaningful and large scope, are thinking about reinterpreting psionics and asking for what style/directions people are interested in?
If not, ignore me. I don't get your thread and am not helpful.
If so, here's my input:
1} Don't. Psionics is and has been done. Do something else. By that I mean you can absolutely take inspiration from wherever you like, but my $.02 is that I'm not interested in psioncs done differently. I'm interested in different done differently.
2} What about something like Incarnum? I know a lot of people dislike that book for a lot of reasons, but those are specific reasons and the fundamental concept is still worth exploration. Most of the detractors didn't like the fluff ("what, you bind chunks of peoples' souls to you to make armor and stuff? Dumb and evil.") Then too there's the fact that the system was (deliberately) really low-power. The soulmelds possible were very passive, and that led to uselessness. I'd be interested in paying for a sourcebook that lets characters "form" their own magic items, if those items were flavorful and useful.
Anyway, there's my input. Don't waste time rehashing the psionics argument. You're already looking at a fractured market there.
Straw man? Hardly. It's a personal preference.
No, it was attacking a straw man with this line of argument:
Honestly, I'd rather spend Vitality points to use the force than to arbitrarily say "Well, I can only force push this guy once, until we stop fighting and start again."
When it had already been stated that methods existed for recovering the use of powers during an encounter, rather than simply waiting for a new fight.
If you think it's better, that's fine by me. I don't prefer that system, though.
When trying to get a major company to do something, it helps to examine not what one guy thinks is better, but what has proven more popular across playtesting with many, many people. While I'm sure your academic-style "I can imagine well enough so I don't need direct experience" approach works for you, when it comes to Star Wars d20 (which saga still was... it was still d20) people overwhelmingly preferred the saga style over the vitality/skill style.
Our personal opinions only matter in so much as they can be abstracted to the general gaming community. They don't write the books for either one of us, but rather for the community at large.
If you go with a skill-based system, look at the Truenamer and the Truenamer optimization threads on the WotC forums for pit falls to avoid. While Pathfinder may not have some of th issues yet, we never know what they're going to put out.
The skill system in general was never designed to put a limit on overall power - there are too many ways that your skill check can be improved. From things like ally assistance, to the ability to get up to a +10 competence bonus from magic items (for cheap!) to synergy bonuses. On top of that, there is nothing more disappointing than spending your round making an attempt that results in nothing, as would be the case with failed skillcasting attempts. Unlike combat characters which get multiple attempts as levels increase, casting is overwhelmingly a once-per round thing.
If anything, we can use the Truenamer as a cautionary tale.
The Star Wars Saga method of using Force Powers on a "Number of Times Per Encounter" basis would fly pretty well if we could make it dovetail into the rest of the PFRPG system. Unfortunately, Pathfinder still uses the Per-Diem-Powers sacred cow, which doesn't show any sign of dying soon (and still leads to the 2-hour adventuring day).
The saga system for force powers would make a better PF warlock style thing, complete with some methods for recovering the use of abilities. I'm not sure I really see it working well for psionics, though again, the way I see psionics fitting best into the existing PF framework is as a sorcerer "bloodline".
When it had already been stated that methods existed for recovering the use of powers during an encounter, rather than simply waiting for a new fight.
Saga was no more mini-focused than its previous d20 incarnation. Force powers in Saga were "per encounter" use. If you had "Force Slam" say, you could use it once during any given encounter, unless you'd taken it more than once (and so on). You acquired force powers by taking a feat which gave you Wisdom+1 force powers each time you took it. The effects of a force power were based on your skill roll, and there were various talents (as per d20 modern) that allowed you to recover force powers during an encounter, subject to limitations.
So you established that by taking a feat multiple times you could gain extra uses of a force power. I don't see how that makes the system better because you have to take a feat to get a force power. So you can force push 3 times per encounter, well you blew three feats to be able to do that.
I've already said that I don't have the book, so I suppose I can't really defend my standpoint without knowing exactly what you're talking about. All I know is what the RCR has in it.
When trying to get a major company to do something, it helps to examine not what one guy thinks is better, but what has proven more popular across playtesting with many, many people. While I'm sure your academic-style "I can imagine well enough so I don't need direct experience" approach works for you, when it comes to Star Wars d20 (which saga still was... it was still d20) people overwhelmingly preferred the saga style over the vitality/skill style.
Our personal opinions only matter in so much as they can be abstracted to the general gaming community. They don't write the books for either one of us, but rather for the community at large.
I wasn't aware that I was petitioning to a major company, either. And if the masses overwhelmingly preferred something over me, what do I care? If I like something that's written by a company, I'll use it, if not, I'll look for something else or make something up.
If I offended you with my opinion, I apologize. You seem quite... resolved is a nice word... in this matter, so whatever your beef is, I'm going to just say you win, because in the end it doesn't matter. "Better" is subjective (I never thought otherwise).
EDIT: Man, quotes in this post were all jacked up.
The Truenamer is more of a lessons learned. It doesn't prove that skill-based systems don't work, just that they don't work when done like the Truenamer.
I suppose we only have one data point as far as official D&D sources went. That said, being that there has only been one failure (and only one attempt) doesn't mean that there IS a satisfactory way to do it, either.
Ally assistance is a quick and easy way to simulate ritual magic. The cheap and easy access to skill boosters means that the DCs for different power levels can't be set linearly (I think squaring the power level, then dividing by two, then adding 10 should be sufficient - 9th level powers have a DC of 50, 1st level power have a DC of 10). The risk of doing nothing in a round encourages the character not to spam their most poweerful abilities in combat, but allows them to spam lower power abilities (which gets the party off the 15 minute work day).
It also means that if you can make the DC, you can cast it an unlimited number of times, unless you make the DCs increase progressively with each casting, in which case you have the Truenamer again.
By making it exponential to take into account all the ways you can increase your skill roll, you force such casters into implementing ALL of those methods. The caster needs those +10 skill items, which may or may not be available in a given campaign... he or she needs assistance which may or may not be available. If you don't compensate for those possibilities then in campaigns where such things are available the caster becomes quickly overpowered compared to their core compatriots, as their massive bonuses let them cast their highest level effects to their heart's content.
This IS what was wrong with the Truenamer - it was done the way you're suggesting (the DCs got incredibly high) and it didn't work for all the reasons mentioned.
Now, if you want to make the whole campaign setting's magic system work that way then that's fine... you can end up with something like True20's magic system. However, trying to balance it against the existing core mechanics... best of luck to you. I'll certainly be interested to see what you think up that ends up different than previous attempts while staying in line with existing casters.
So you established that by taking a feat multiple times you could gain extra uses of a force power. I don't see how that makes the system better because you have to take a feat to get a force power. So you can force push 3 times per encounter, well you blew three feats to be able to do that.
I refer you to the same paragraph you neglected to read the first time you thrashed that straw-man:
Saga was no more mini-focused than its previous d20 incarnation. Force powers in Saga were "per encounter" use. If you had "Force Slam" say, you could use it once during any given encounter, unless you'd taken it more than once (and so on). You acquired force powers by taking a feat which gave you Wisdom+1 force powers each time you took it. The effects of a force power were based on your skill roll, and there were various talents (as per d20 modern) that allowed you to recover force powers during an encounter, subject to limitations.
I suspect you might have a bit of a beef, too, if you were dragged into an extended Emily Litella skit.
Stuff.
I actually went out and tracked a copy of this Saga edition down and looked at the section on force powers. Your explanation was far from what I would call thorough, but I see where I missed your point. I don't think that the system actually sounds so bad now.
But you're probably the biggest jerk I've ever had the displeasure of disagreeing with on these forums. Just sayin'.
First: Fantastic post, Lion. Thank you for your input, you're very thorough and very helpful and not at all confrontational or critical, which is exactly what I asked for. Thank you. You give me a lot to think about here, and some very rational arguments.
First: I'm a huge fan of 3.5 psionics. Huge. I love the power point system to death. I have not seen Dreamscarred's stuff, but I've heard great things.
Second: Buy Dreamscarred's stuff. What they did was 3.5 Psionics FOR PATHFINDER. That is exactly what it is, barring a few flavor changes, and making the mechanics compatible. This is my personal opinion, but I did read the entire first book and most of the second... They're doing good work. If you want PP, go get their material. I have nothing but good things to say about them.
Finally: WHEN I do this, I hope I won't make any mistakes that will ruin things, but I will be proposing something as inventive and interesting as the Oracle, at least, with mechanics that rely on tested formula and not just theory. If I don't have a passel of gamers to read what I'm doing over my shoulder (as in the Multiclass thread) I sit down with paper and pencils and dice and roll out. There may even be some transforming involved.
I have seen things in this thread that I DO NOT WANT to do, but I am gathering other peoples opinions here, not my own. Your opinions are eloquently stated, and well thought out, and I look forward to judging you where you cannot see me. :D
Again, thanks. Good stuff here.