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In no particular order:
Feats:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot (archers need to hit, and all-too-often are firing into melee)
Deadly Aim
Rapid Shot
Manyshot
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization (if you qualify)
Point-Blank Master (if you can qualify, let's you focus on one weapon)
Snap Shot (AoOs with a bow? Score!)
Improved Snap Shot (AoOs without being next to the target)
Improved Critical
Clustered Shots
Hammer the Gap
Arrows:
Normal Arrows
Blunt Arrows
Cold Iron Arrows
Silvered Arrows
Adamantine Arrows (blanched is a possibility)
Weapon Blanch (Ghost Salt) (only way to get full damage with a ranged weapon on incorporeal undead)
Weapon enhancements:
Seeking (removes miss chances, if you hit the right square)
Holy/Anarchic/Axiomatic/etc.
Magical Items:
Efficient Quiver(s)
Belt of Incredible Dexterity
Bracers of Archery (Greater is the target)
Manual of Quickness of Action (Dex bonus)
Ring of Invisibility
Consumables:
Oil of Bless Weapon
Oil of Daylight
Oil of Flame Arrow
Oil of Magic Weapon
Potion of Cat's Grace
Potion of Darkvision
Potion of Haste
Classes:
Ranger (favored enemy)
Fighter (more feats, access to additional feats)
Paladin (smite is ugly)
Monk (Zen Archer, IUS)
Spells:
Gravity Bow
See Invisibility (or anything similar)
Daylight
Don't forget other Dex-based attacks, like Alchemist's Fire (swarms) & Tanglefoot Bags (sometimes it seems nastier if the target saves)
Hope this helps
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In all honesty, Archer's that are built for destruction(which isn't that hard) are table breakers. I know this because I have a level 11 fighter which is just wrong. On and average round of combat I do around 60 to 80 points of damage and can bypas most DR aside from adamantine. I do not know if the ultimate combat is sanction, but the snapshot feats are just horrible game breakers, the idea of threatening with a bow is just silly. Very soon you may not see many melee fighters and instead mostly dedicated archers.
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In all honesty, Archer's that are built for destruction(which isn't that hard) are table breakers. I know this because I have a level 11 fighter which is just wrong. On and average round of combat I do around 60 to 80 points of damage and can bypas most DR aside from adamantine. I do not know if the ultimate combat is sanction, but the snapshot feats are just horrible game breakers, the idea of threatening with a bow is just silly. Very soon you may not see many melee fighters and instead mostly dedicated archers.
Great, all we need is another Karl out there to break a combat in less than a round. Somehow the creatures now always end up with 1hp left after your full attack. Weird how that happens. :)
A well built archer already does too much damage. To do it, they often don't have to move, so they don't lose damage by charging / closing the distance. Given how many scenarios now make it harder to close the gap, it's a big deal.
In addition, most GMs don't even enforce the basic rules of ranged combat (or bother checking for feats people sometimes don't have). So yeah.
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A well built archer already does too much damage. To do it, they often don't have to move, so they don't lose damage by charging / closing the distance. Given how many scenarios now make it harder to close the gap, it's a big deal.
In addition, most GMs don't even enforce the basic rules of ranged combat (or bother checking for feats people sometimes don't have). So yeah.
Hmmm. As a GM, I check on the feats, and enforce the various penalties. As a player, whose primary character is an archer, I take the feats, and keep track of the penalties very closely.
As a GM, I also try to keep an eye on any PC who is being oddball in some way or other, whether it is how the Paladin's Detect Evil works, or a Magus' spell strike.
And, IMO, an archer, even with the feats and equipment I listed, is no where near the damage output that a dedicated meleeist can do.
I think an Archer Fighter could do nearly as much damage, but bring a whole crap load of tactical versatility that your 2handed Fighter can't.
Using your same build guidelines, you could deal around 20.5 damage per hit with a progression of around +27/+27/+27/+22/+17.
damage: 1d8 + 16 (4enh + 2feat + 2 training + 2str + 6deadlyaim)
Assuming the same target of AC 27, that comes out to averaging 6 hits per round (assuming Manyshot). Crits are rare with bows, so that's around 123 damage per round.
(Let me know if my averaging and assumed hits is off, but I think it's good - I'm not usually a numbers-cruncher.)
Now, take into account that this guy can do this damage at 125ft without penalty (and he has the feats to shoot into melee without penalty) this is just ridiculous.
Now, also consider the Archer Fighter's Trick shot ability:
- At 3rd level, an archer can choose one of the following combat maneuvers or actions: disarm, feint, or sunder. He can perform this action with a bow against any target within 30 feet, with a –4 penalty to his CMB. Every four levels beyond 3rd, he may choose an additional trick shot to learn. These maneuvers use up arrows as normal.
At 11th level, he may also choose from the following combat maneuvers: bull rush, grapple, trip. A target grappled by an arrow can break free by destroying the archer's arrow (hardness 5, hit points 1, break DC 13) or with an Escape Artist or CMB check (against the archer's CMD –4). This ability replaces armor training 1, 2, 3, and 4.
So fi you combine that with Snap Shot, Imp. Snap shot,and potentially Combat Patrol, this could get obscene because the guy can set up a killing field of about 25ft around him, using AoO's to shoo incoming targets - and able to trip/grapple them with those AoO's if need be - it just gets sick.
Not as much damage on average, but his versatility is ridiculous. (Again, let me know if I've misguessed on my numbers or feat set-up, but I believe it's solid.)
But yeah, Deadly Aim is nice. Point Blank Shot is nice. There are no real superb ways to increase the damage output.
I would probably put Manyshot in the "superb" category; you essentially get an extra attack with no penalty.
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I suspect Clustered Shots will move into the nearly essential group, since DR/- is an Archer's worse enemy, and this feat means you only have to deal with the DR once per combat sequence...
And Snap Shot, at even the basic level, means that the enemy spellcaster that you have based will get a nasty surprise, since he starts casting normally, since he shouldn't need to worry about getting hit with an AoO from an archer, "Ranged weapons don't threaten." Heh.
I am a sad panda, though, since it takes 3 feats to simulate what is a single feat for a more open 3.5 campaign, Iron Kingdom's Ranged Threat, I think is the source and name.
And Snap Shot, at even the basic level, means that the enemy spellcaster that you have based will get a nasty surprise, since he starts casting normally, since he shouldn't need to worry about getting hit with an AoO from an archer, "Ranged weapons don't threaten." Heh.
Count your feats, and see what's worth giving up here.
Even with a human fighter there are more feats than slots by 12th level.
A Zen Archer should have enough feats, although I don't know the prerequisites for the Ultimate Combat feats; I'm guessing the BAB requirement would be too high for a monk to take them all.
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Has anybody seen a good comparison (link??) of a fighter-based archer versus a Zen Archer? I would guess that (much like a melee fighter) the fighter version would lay down more smack in combat, but be very limited outside of combat, where the monk version would have more skills and more flexibility in combat.
James: just FYI, the numbers that were posted above show the THF getting +4/+4 form Weapon Training, where the archer is only showing +2/+2. The "extra" +2/+2 won't change the fact that the THF is the king of melee/ranged single-target damage, but it does help close the gap a bit.
I find Zen Archer is a great build. You get the better feats at lower levels. I'm running a multiclassed half-elf Zen Archer/Empyreal sorcerer right now.
1st : Monk - Point Blank Shot, IUS, Skill Focus (Perception), Flurry, Perfect Strike, Dodge
2nd : Sorcerer - 1d4 heal at range, Mage Armor, Eschew Materials
3rd : Monk - Weapon Focus, Mobility, Precise Shot
4th : Monk - Zen Archery (WIS with bows), Point Blank Master, Fast Movement
5th : Sorcerer - Combat Reflexes, Gravity Bow
Took a trait to give me +2 CL with sorcerer. It's a really decent build so far. Not maxed out for damage (Although I'm currently doing 2d8+2 with gravity bow pumped, and doing 2 attacks per round at a +9 to hit), but I have a 25 AC on demand (mage armor), can crank the gravity bow, can heal my good companions at 30 feet for 1d4 up to 8 times a day (which really helps for stablizing if needed). I can move 40 feet, I can threaten 5 feet, and I can run up into the middle of the melee, flank with the fighter (since I still threaten) and flurry a pair of arrows into someone's face without provoking. Shocked the fighter player when the monk flanked with him using a bow. He forgot I threatened with my body. :)
So, i have a couple questions.
Reflexive Shot (Ex)
At 9th level, a zen archer can make attacks of opportunity with arrows from his bow. The monk still threatens squares he could reach with unarmed strikes, and can still only make one attack of opportunity per round (unless he has Combat Reflexes).
This ability replaces improved evasion.
Is the above ability something that will be changed to snap shot?
Also, what armor class will both the monk and the fighter have at higher levels?
The armor thing can be important because the fighter will need a high dex for his feat progression, but will be limited to medium armors just to take advantage of his high dex.
Also please remember that the fighter can take advantage of gloves of the duelist that gives a bonus to resist disarm and sunder and also a +2 to his weapon training.
2nd level monk bonus- rapid shotWhy would you want rapid shot?
You can't use it with a flurry and your flurry is strictly better.
-James
In theory, Rapid Shot + Manyshot could be better than Flurry (without Rapid Shot + Manyshot) in some circumstances, couldn't it? It's a bit of a stretch, I admit.
In theory, Rapid Shot + Manyshot could be better than Flurry (without Rapid Shot + Manyshot) in some circumstances, couldn't it? It's a bit of a stretch, I admit.
2nd level monk bonus- rapid shotWhy would you want rapid shot?
You can't use it with a flurry and your flurry is strictly better.
-James
Well, rapid shot gives you +1 attack at a -2 to all attacks that round and manyshot adds an extra arrow to your first attack.
Flurry and the rapid shot/manyshot combo is basically the same thing as flurry uses your monk level as BAB and adds extra attacks.
They look to be the same on a base level.
Just the fighter adds things like greater weapon spec and greater weapon focus as well as weapon training and duelist gloves.
So, the fighter does more consistant damage while the monk has other cool tricks and skills.
Flurry and the rapid shot/manyshot combo is basically the same thing as flurry uses your monk level as BAB and adds extra attacks.
They look to be the same on a base level.
Not even close (sorry). You're losing -2 to hit. But your monk uses his level as BAB on the flurry. Same number of attacks (usually, roughly), but a much better chance to hit on the flurry. You don't use the monk advanced BAB on the rapid/many attack. So an 8th level monk has +6 BAB for the Rapid/Many attack (+4 with penalties to start off). For a flurry he has +8 to start off. That's double the BAB (and a 20% greater chance to hit).
At 20th level, the numbers are bigger, +13 vs +20 to start.
Flurry and the rapid shot/manyshot combo is basically the same thing as flurry uses your monk level as BAB and adds extra attacks.
They look to be the same on a base level.
Not even close (sorry). You're losing -2 to hit. But your monk uses his level as BAB on the flurry. Same number of attacks (usually, roughly), but a much better chance to hit on the flurry. You don't use the monk advanced BAB on the rapid/many attack. So an 8th level monk has +6 BAB for the Rapid/Many attack (+4 with penalties to start off). For a flurry he has +8 to start off. That's double the BAB (and a 20% greater chance to hit).
At 20th level, the numbers are bigger, +13 vs +20 to start.
Maybe i misunderstood the question. i was thinking we were comparing a fighter with rapid/many to a monk with flurry, hence the same thing.
Maybe i misunderstood the question. i was thinking we were comparing a fighter with rapid/many to a monk with flurry, hence the same thing.
Ah, no, if I followed the thread correctly, it was why would a Monk take Rapid/Many, even if they are in his bonus feat list, since they aren't as good as Flurry. I guess I could have misread the thread.
You didn't misread mdt, there's a poster above who's taken rapid shot with his Zen Archer Monk and I was wondering why.-James
Ah, ok. Yeah, I can't honestly think of any reason to take it.
On a separate quandary...
Ki Arrows (Su): At 5th level, a zen archer may spend 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action to change the damage dice of arrows he shoots to that of his unarmed strikes. This lasts until the start of his next turn. For example, a Medium zen archer's short bow normally deals 1d6 damage; using this ability, his arrows deal 1d8 damage until the start of his next turn. This ability replaces purity of body.
Gravity bow significantly increases the weight and density of arrows or bolts fired from your bow or crossbow the instant before they strike their target and then return them to normal a few moments later. Any arrow fired from a bow or crossbow you are carrying when the spell is cast deals damage as if one size larger than it actually is. For instance, an arrow fired from a Medium longbow normally deals 1d8 points of damage, but it would instead deal 2d6 points of damage if fired from a gravity bow. Only you can benefit from this spell. If anyone else uses your bow to make an attack the arrows deal damage as normal for their size.
Wondering how the two interact. My gut instinct is that they don't Ki Arrows would override the gravity bow spell, since it's a supernatural ability that explicitly states what his arrows do for damage, thus override their base damage, whatever it might be.
Range is an archer's friend. Being in melee is not. A tripped archer is an archer that is provoking to fire one arrow. An archer with a sundered bow is one that's crying for mommy.
Sorry, just have to pipe in here...
The same could be said of any melee fighter.
They get tripped, and they are provoking to stand up and get that one attack.
They can also get their shiny new +3 Keen NoDachi sundered as well... and trust me, they would cry just as much.
You are right about range being an archer's friend though. But in this instance it's a huge advantage over the melee guy as melee range provides pretty much the same penalties to either one.
Heh, the only cheese archers are missing now is a feat that lets them add their dex to damage. :)
Range is an archer's friend. Being in melee is not. A tripped archer is an archer that is provoking to fire one arrow. An archer with a sundered bow is one that's crying for mommy.
Sorry, just have to pipe in here...
The same could be said of any melee fighter.
They get tripped, and they are provoking to stand up and get that one attack.
They can also get their shiny new +3 Keen NoDachi sundered as well... and trust me, they would cry just as much.You are right about range being an archer's friend though. But in this instance it's a huge advantage over the melee guy as melee range provides pretty much the same penalties to either one.
Heh, the only cheese archers are missing now is a feat that lets them add their dex to damage. :)
This is a cheese they quite frankly dont need with Mighty Composite bows.
This is a cheese they quite frankly dont need with Mighty Composite bows.
Range is an archer's friend. Being in melee is not. A tripped archer is an archer that is provoking to fire one arrow. An archer with a sundered bow is one that's crying for mommy.
Sorry, just have to pipe in here...
The same could be said of any melee fighter.
They get tripped, and they are provoking to stand up and get that one attack.
They can also get their shiny new +3 Keen NoDachi sundered as well... and trust me, they would cry just as much.You are right about range being an archer's friend though. But in this instance it's a huge advantage over the melee guy as melee range provides pretty much the same penalties to either one.
Heh, the only cheese archers are missing now is a feat that lets them add their dex to damage. :)
Completely agreed!
Hehe ACTUALLY, there is this new feat in ultimate combat...
It looks like this:
Prone Shooter (Combat)
While prone, you use the ground to stabilize your aim
while using a crossbow or firearm.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (crossbow or firearm), base
attack bonus +1.
Benefit: If you have been prone since the end of your
last turn, you can ignore the penalty the prone condition
imposes on ranged attack rolls you make using a crossbow
or firearm with which you have Weapon Focus.
Special: If you have the Prone Slinger feat, Weapon Focus
(sling) satisfies this feat’s Weapon Focus prerequisite, and
you can apply this feat’s benefit to attack rolls you make
using a sling with which you have Weapon Focus.
So, a crossbow archer is starting to look a little better all the time.
Add some critical feats, some pepper and yeah, you get the point.
Just to throw a little fuel on the fire, I prefer Eldritch Knight archers over either Zen Archers OR straight up Fighter archers.
If we're talking 11th level, then we're talking +8 BAB and 5th level sorc/wizard spells. Adding Arcane Strike helps with damage, as does Greater Magic Weapon (since you can load your weapon with damage enhancers instead of enhancement bonus...in addition to being able to craft your own weapon). Spells like Flame Arrow and Heroism also help out and last a good long time.
Anyhow, one of the reasons maxed out archers tend to do extremely well is that they get their full attack almost all the time, and they also tend to have a pretty darn high initiative. I've seen it happen many times that the archer goes first, full attacks, does a boatload of damage, then the melee guys go, spend their moves to get into position (often getting AoO'd in the process), hit once for a pretty nice amount of damage, then the archers get another full attack...and the melee guys tend to have to move again to the next target at that point. Many combats I've seen, the melee guys only ever get to move/charge and attack once each round, especially with archers going before them in most rounds.
Just to throw a little fuel on the fire, I prefer Eldritch Knight archers over either Zen Archers OR straight up Fighter archers.
I've been seriously thinking about going Arcane Archer with my monk. I I've got it figured right, if I go all Monk from where I am, I'll have a +6 BAB at level 9. So level 10 start Arcane Archer. At level 11 I'd have a +7 BAB (+8 BAB with Flurry), a 3rd level sorcerer (caster level 5 due to trait). Not too shabby.
I've been seriously thinking about going Arcane Archer with my monk. I I've got it figured right, if I go all Monk from where I am, I'll have a +6 BAB at level 9. So level 10 start Arcane Archer. At level 11 I'd have a +7 BAB (+8 BAB with Flurry), a 3rd level sorcerer (caster level 5 due to trait). Not too shabby.Just to throw a little fuel on the fire, I prefer Eldritch Knight archers over either Zen Archers OR straight up Fighter archers.
That sounds like it would be really fun to play. I really think Eldritch Knight is better than Arcane Archer for caster archers, but if you're doing it for purely flavor reasons, more power to you. Either way, it should be a grand old time.
In theory, Rapid Shot + Manyshot could be better than Flurry (without Rapid Shot + Manyshot) in some circumstances, couldn't it? It's a bit of a stretch, I admit.Well, rapid shot gives you +1 attack at a -2 to all attacks that round and manyshot adds an extra arrow to your first attack.
Flurry and the rapid shot/manyshot combo is basically the same thing as flurry uses your monk level as BAB and adds extra attacks.
They look to be the same on a base level.
I did the math and there's basically no point where rapid shot + manyshot is better than flurry (although they're close at level 6 & 7). So I retract my previous remark. :-)