Firearms - Now 100% More Broken!

[Tobias]

leo1925 wrote:

Where is the build of the archer that overdark is using?

Is it in some previous page? if so can someone point it to me inm order to see it? the numbers overdark presented for the archer seem a little low to me.
thank you.

Ask and ye shall receive.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/paizo/firearmsNow100MoreBroken&page=5#225

[leo1925]

Tobias wrote:

leo1925 wrote:

Where is the build of the archer that overdark is using?

Is it in some previous page? if so can someone point it to me inm order to see it? the numbers overdark presented for the archer seem a little low to me.
thank you.

Ask and ye shall receive.

link

Linkified.

What method for stats was it used?
And i have some serious concerns about how he spent his money.

Now i am going to run the DPR numbers myself.

[Shadow_of_death]

You know an alchemist who takes extra bombs as his feat every level would be able to throw enough bombs to last all day even with his 4-6 per round (he can even supplement a few with alchemists fire if he likes ) and he will still out do the gunslinger in damage, utility, and overall cost of adventuring (bombs are free! And alchemists fire is less exspensive then bullets because you need less per day) Sure it would be boring to play with extra bombs being your only feat, but unlike the gunslinger who is just as boring because of his forced feat selection in order to even get full attacks the alchemist still has extracts and discoveries.

So why are the gunslingers full attacks all of a sudden so broken? You know the crafting DC on bombs? Zero, the cost? Nothing!

[Maxximilius]

leo1925 wrote:

What method for stats was it used?
And i have some serious concerns about how he spent his money.

Now i am going to run the DPR numbers myself.

Don't forget to include Gloves of dueling in the archer's build. :)

And pray your gods that you don't make a grammatical mistake while posting, especially if you are writing on a smartphone, in a foreign language - it has been said through ages that this is a terrible, terrible thing to do for your credibility on this oblivion of darkness !

[AvalonXQ]

wraithstrike wrote:

The current one works if the misfire is only on a 1.

Not really.

The interesting thing about the misfire is that, if I'm understanding it correctly, it eliminates all additional attacks in the same round.

It may be a little more complicated than that, but assume for a moment that that's how we're going to calculate it -- your misfire simply eliminates any additional attacks you would get this round. If this is a poor simplification, let me know.

Then all we need to do is add another term to the equation:

[(1-m)^(n-1)] * [h(d+s)+ft(cd+cb+r)]

m = Chance of misfire, expressed as a percentage. Usually .05 or .1.
n = Which attack this is this round. 1 if this is the first attack, 2 for the second, etc.

[Maxximilius]

AvalonXQ wrote:

Suggestions

It's an interesting take on the problem, but isn't the whole "misfire stops the attack" restricted to weapons with only one barrel and no way to quick draw another gun/reload/clear the barrel ?

I don't have the book available right now so I can't check by myself.

Also, don't forget that misfiring, in all cases, significatively lowers following DPR by adding -2 penalty to attack, damage... and the fact you now have a 20x2 weapon with a minimum 20% risk of exploding at each attack made.
Including this with a precise formula would probably be way much harder, especially because it's importance depends on the "misfire" event probability that already isn't implemented but has an heavy impact on average DPR just from the critical range and damage penalty alone.

[Tobias]

Misfiring doesn't stop you from getting any further attacks, though you'd probably be smart to stop until you have a chance to clear the broken condition.

You can even reload a firearm that just misfired, even if it only has one barrel. It's the increased misfire chance that becomes the problem, and it's clearing it which takes up more time.

[A Man In Black]

Matt Stich wrote:

Has anybody been able to make a DPR formula that includes misfire chance? I'd expect a math wiz like AMiB or whoever else in the DPR olympics could make one.

Yes. Assuming you stop shooting when you misfire (and you really should), for (n+1) attacks executed in series...

(1+m+m^2 ... +m^n)(h(d+s)+ft(cd+cb+r))

m = (1- % chance to misfire)
h = The lower of m or chance to hit expressed as a percentage

And the standard variables:

d = Normal damage. This is any damage that happens any time you hit.
s = Damage which isn't multiplied on a crit. S stands for sneak attack, but this includes elemental/alignment properties on weapons, manyshot damage, and so on.
t = Chance to roll a threat. This is the threat range of your weapon or your chance to hit, whichever is lower.
f = This is your chance to confirm a threat. Most of the time, this is equal to h. If you have Critical focus, it's (h+.2) or .95, whichever is higher. If you auto-confirm crits, as with a level 20 fighter or Bless Weapon, this is 1.
c = This is the number of bonus multiples you get from a crit. A 2x crit weapon is 1, a 3x crit weapon is 2, etc.
b = This is elemental burst damage, such as from fiery burst weapons and thundering. Such enhancements self-multiply based on your crit multiplier; if they don't, then they're added to r and not b.
r = This is fixed bonus damage dealt on a crit. No such abilities exist in PF core, to my knowledge.

Be aware, this formula does not accurately account for simultaneously firing both barrels of a double-barreled firearm.

Maxximilius wrote:

AvalonXQ wrote:

Suggestions

It's an interesting take on the problem, but isn't the whole "misfire stops the attack" restricted to weapons with only one barrel and no way to quick draw another gun/reload/clear the barrel ?

Guns do not misfire on a per-barrel basis. If a dual pistol or pepperbox misfires, shots from all barrels suffer the usual misfire penalties and risk to explode the weapon.

As for stopping when you misfire, I can do the math if you continue shooting, but it's going to involve two formulas: one for your average damage, and one for your chance to blow up your gun.

[leo1925]

Maxximilius wrote:

leo1925 wrote:

What method for stats was it used?
And i have some serious concerns about how he spent his money.

Now i am going to run the DPR numbers myself.

Don't forget to include Gloves of dueling in the archer's build. :)

And pray your gods that you don't make a grammatical mistake while posting, especially if you are writing on a smartphone, in a foreign language - it has been said through ages that this is a terrible, terrible thing to do for your credibility on this oblivion of darkness !

Why do include since they aren't there, that's only one of the reasons i said that i disagree with how the money were spent.

Anyway here are my numbers with the archer build in the link i was given above.

Full attack sequence:
(using both rapishot and deadly aim and of course manyshot, i am not using point blank shot because the archer usually stays away)
+2 Composite Longbow (Str +3) +16(double damage)/+16/+11; 1d8+13 (average 17.5); 19-20/x3

CR 10 Average AC 23 (T 10)
Archer DPR - 51.1

CR 11 Average AC 25 (T 11)
Archer DPR - 43.05

CR 12 Average AC 26 (T 8)
Archer DPR - 39.025

So i am not sure what method overdark used (i used the method given in the DPR olympics thread) but his numbers for the archer are higher than normal.
Can someone who knows the gunslinger class use the build overdark provided and check his numbers?

Of course as i said the money of the archer aren't spent wisely.

[HappyDaze]

I'm staying out of the arguments on damage, touch attacks, and other issues, but there is one point raised that I have to comment on.

I do feel that the Gunsmithing feat as it is written is a poor addition to the game. I feel that all of the tasks it involves can and should be covered with Craft (alchemy) and Craft (weapons). Change the Gunsmithing feat so that it reduces time and material expenditures when using those Craft skills to make ammunition and firearms, but the feat should not take the place of the Craft skills themselves.

[A Man In Black]

HappyDaze wrote:

I do feel that the Gunsmithing feat as it is written is a poor addition to the game. I feel that all of the tasks it involves can and should be covered with Craft (alchemy) and Craft (weapons).

And those skills would cover them, I imagine, if the craft skills weren't so badly designed as to be completely nonfunctional.

[Guy Humual]

HappyDaze wrote:

I'm staying out of the arguments on damage, touch attacks, and other issues, but there is one point raised that I have to comment on.

I do feel that the Gunsmithing feat as it is written is a poor addition to the game. I feel that all of the tasks it involves can and should be covered with Craft (alchemy) and Craft (weapons). Change the Gunsmithing feat so that it reduces time and material expenditures when using those Craft skills to make ammunition and firearms, but the feat should not take the place of the Craft skills themselves.

The only problem with that is that the gunslinger needs those skills to function. So either you build them into the class (like wild empathy) or you include them with some other method like a feat (which is what they've done). Personally I think the extreme cost of building weapons and especially ammo is way out there so I see I don't see crafting firearms and ammo as becoming a problem.

[leo1925]

A Man In Black wrote:

HappyDaze wrote:

I do feel that the Gunsmithing feat as it is written is a poor addition to the game. I feel that all of the tasks it involves can and should be covered with Craft (alchemy) and Craft (weapons).

And those skills would cover them, I imagine, if the craft skills weren't so badly designed as to be completely nonfunctional.

That.

[overdark]

A Man In Black wrote:

HappyDaze wrote:

I do feel that the Gunsmithing feat as it is written is a poor addition to the game. I feel that all of the tasks it involves can and should be covered with Craft (alchemy) and Craft (weapons).

And those skills would cover them, I imagine, if the craft skills weren't so badly designed as to be completely nonfunctional.

How exactly are craft skills nonfunctional. You make a check multiply your check by the target DC, compare that to the price of the item in SP and if that isn't equal to the price then you move on to the next week and make another check.

They're pretty straightforward and totally functional.

They do cover firearms (as someone pointed out earlier, see page 101 in UC), just not if you take Gunsmithing to bypass all those checks.

[A Man In Black]

overdark wrote:

How exactly are craft skills nonfunctional. You make a check multiply your check by the target DC, compare that to the price of the item in SP and if that isn't equal to the price then you move on to the next week and make another check.

Because anything with a high price takes ages, but you can make infinite clubs in a day. The rules don't make any sense any which way.

[overdark]

A Man In Black wrote:

overdark wrote:

How exactly are craft skills nonfunctional. You make a check multiply your check by the target DC, compare that to the price of the item in SP and if that isn't equal to the price then you move on to the next week and make another check.

Because anything with a high price takes ages, but you can make infinite clubs in a day. The rules don't make any sense any which way.

What has a high price tag? Besides guns.

[HappyDaze]

Guy Humual wrote:

HappyDaze wrote:

I'm staying out of the arguments on damage, touch attacks, and other issues, but there is one point raised that I have to comment on.

I do feel that the Gunsmithing feat as it is written is a poor addition to the game. I feel that all of the tasks it involves can and should be covered with Craft (alchemy) and Craft (weapons). Change the Gunsmithing feat so that it reduces time and material expenditures when using those Craft skills to make ammunition and firearms, but the feat should not take the place of the Craft skills themselves.

The only problem with that is that the gunslinger needs those skills to function. So either you build them into the class (like wild empathy) or you include them with some other method like a feat (which is what they've done). Personally I think the extreme cost of building weapons and especially ammo is way out there so I see I don't see crafting firearms and ammo as becoming a problem.

The Wizard needs Spellcraft to function. Many believe that the Monk needs Acrobatics to function. The Ranger needs Survival to function. The Rogue needs many skills to function. Having a class require a skill means that they should take the skill, not that a work-around solution should be hacked into the rules.

[HappyDaze]

overdark wrote:

A Man In Black wrote:

overdark wrote:

How exactly are craft skills nonfunctional. You make a check multiply your check by the target DC, compare that to the price of the item in SP and if that isn't equal to the price then you move on to the next week and make another check.

Because anything with a high price takes ages, but you can make infinite clubs in a day. The rules don't make any sense any which way.

What has a high price tag? Besides guns.

Structures and vehicles along with certain alchemical items (like high-end poisons).

[HappyDaze]

A Man In Black wrote:

overdark wrote:

How exactly are craft skills nonfunctional. You make a check multiply your check by the target DC, compare that to the price of the item in SP and if that isn't equal to the price then you move on to the next week and make another check.

Because anything with a high price takes ages, but you can make infinite clubs in a day. The rules don't make any sense any which way.

They make perfect sense in a rules balance manner. Greater expense = greater time. That's an easy bit to grasp and is consistent. Does it model reality? No, but much of Pathfinder does not.

[overdark]

HappyDaze wrote:

overdark wrote:

A Man In Black wrote:

overdark wrote:

How exactly are craft skills nonfunctional. You make a check multiply your check by the target DC, compare that to the price of the item in SP and if that isn't equal to the price then you move on to the next week and make another check.

Because anything with a high price takes ages, but you can make infinite clubs in a day. The rules don't make any sense any which way.

What has a high price tag? Besides guns.

Structures and vehicles along with certain alchemical items (like high-end poisons).

So it takes a long time to build a house, yeah yer right that rule is totally nonfunctional.

[A Man In Black]

overdark wrote:

What has a high price tag? Besides guns.

Poisons, heavy armor, anything made from mithril or adamantine. I remember the brokenness of the crafting rules being a big deal during the APG playtest, since poisonmaking and alchemy were originally supposed to be a big deal for the alchemist.

HappyDaze wrote:

They make perfect sense in a rules balance manner. Greater expense = greater time.

Sure, that makes sense. But making a set of mithril full plate, for example, would take a level 20 character with Skill Focus, masterwork tools and 18 int a full 77 weeks. Greater expense = outrageously impractical amounts of time.

It has been previously discussed.

Without Gunsmithing working the way it does, spellcasters with Fabricate would be the only practical gunsmiths.

[overdark]

A Man In Black wrote:

But making a set of mithril full plate, for example, would take a level 20 character with Skill Focus, masterwork tools and 18 int a full 77 weeks. Greater expense = outrageously impractical amounts of time

Is that even with taking the +10 to the DC to make it faster?

[Guy Humual]

HappyDaze wrote:

The Wizard needs Spellcraft to function. Many believe that the Monk needs Acrobatics to function. The Ranger needs Survival to function. The Rogue needs many skills to function. Having a class require a skill means that they should take the skill, not that a work-around solution should be hacked into the rules.

The monk is an interesting suggestion as in many ways the monk and gunslinger are the same, both require good Dex and Wis, both get 4 skill points, and both "need" acrobatics . . . but the monk doesn't have any weapons to maintain. As to the others, they generally end up with more skill points then they need.

A gunslinger requiring to make a craft check to make ammo would likely need to be about level 5 before they could reasonably craft ammo (assuming a DC 20) which means they're paying 11gp per shot before that without the feat.

[A Man In Black]

overdark wrote:

Is that even with taking the +10 to the DC to make it faster?

Yes.

[Guy Humual]

lets say you wanted to make a pet rock (by gluing on googly eyes onto it), the DC would be non existent and it would take you no time at all, but if you wanted to make a pet rock out of the hope diamond it would take weeks and weeks to complete the crafting. One assumes that it's very slow drying glue. ;)

[overdark]

Guy Humual wrote:

lets say you wanted to make a pet rock (by gluing on googly eyes onto it), the DC would be non existent and it would take you no time at all, but if you wanted to make a pet rock out of the hope diamond it would take weeks and weeks to complete the crafting. One assumes that it's very slow drying glue. ;)

Yeah cause thats the logical assumption.

[A Man In Black]

overdark wrote:

Yeah cause thats the logical assumption.

Gold coins take longer to cast than copper coins, if you'd like a less outrageous example.

[HappyDaze]

A Man In Black wrote:

Without Gunsmithing working the way it does, spellcasters with Fabricate would be the only practical gunsmiths.

You obviously failed to pay attention to what I said. I want the Gunsmithing feat to reduce the time it takes to craft ammunition and firearms much as there is a feat that does this for alchemy, but I still want the Craft (alchemy) and Craft (firearms) skills to be the basis for crafting these items.

[A Man In Black]

HappyDaze wrote:

You obviously failed to pay attention to what I said. I want the Gunsmithing feat to reduce the time it takes to craft ammunition and firearms much as there is a feat that does this for alchemy, but I still want the Craft (alchemy) and Craft (firearms) skills to be the basis for crafting these items.

Then they can't make their weapons or ammo in a practical amount of time at level 1, making them pretty much unplayable. Plus, it doesn't make the crafting rules less of a paperwork clusterf~$&.

[overdark]

A Man In Black wrote:

overdark wrote:

Yeah cause thats the logical assumption.

Gold coins take longer to cast than copper coins, if you'd like a less outrageous example.

Again, yeah that the logical assumption. Do you really think a $1 bill costs more to make than a $20 bill. Your just being deliberatly obtuse.

[HappyDaze]

Guy Humual wrote:

A gunslinger requiring to make a craft check to make ammo would likely need to be about level 5 before they could reasonably craft ammo (assuming a DC 20) which means they're paying 11gp per shot before that without the feat.

You're ignoring that the Gunsmithing feat can be rewritten. Having it provide a +1 competence bonus per level on Craft (alchemy) checks to make ammunition and Craft (weapons) checks to make firearms would be a big help while being similar to (but more specialized than) the benefit the Alchemist gets with his namesake Craft (alchemy) skill. If you're feeling generous, also allow Gunsmithing to halve the base time for making ammunition and firearms. This solves the issues while still using the Craft rules. It also makes crafting ammunition and firearms cheaper (one third cost rather than half cost) since it uses the crafting rules.

[HappyDaze]

A Man In Black wrote:

HappyDaze wrote:

You obviously failed to pay attention to what I said. I want the Gunsmithing feat to reduce the time it takes to craft ammunition and firearms much as there is a feat that does this for alchemy, but I still want the Craft (alchemy) and Craft (firearms) skills to be the basis for crafting these items.

Then they can't make their weapons or ammo in a practical amount of time at level 1, making them pretty much unplayable. Plus, it doesn't make the crafting rules less of a paperwork clusterf~%+.

A fighter at level 1 can't necessarily make his weapon (composite longbow) and ammo (arrows) in a short time either.

[Guy Humual]

overdark wrote:

Again, yeah that the logical assumption. Do you really think a $1 bill costs more to make than a $20 bill. Your just being deliberatly obtuse.

The point is items are valued at a certain level not only because of the complexity but also their rarity and the material that goes into them. The crafting rules simply assumes that the GP value of an item is based on it's complexity and thus more expensive items take longer to craft.

[Talonhawke]

HappyDaze wrote:

A Man In Black wrote:

Without Gunsmithing working the way it does, spellcasters with Fabricate would be the only practical gunsmiths.

You obviously failed to pay attention to what I said. I want the Gunsmithing feat to reduce the time it takes to craft ammunition and firearms much as there is a feat that does this for alchemy, but I still want the Craft (alchemy) and Craft (firearms) skills to be the basis for crafting these items.

The real question would be DC's then lets look at dc 15 for bullets and dc 20 black powder. so with a feat like Master Alchemist assuming it could be taken before 5th level or given free puts the gunslinger at needing both it and skill focus to be able to even take ten.

So both bullet and gold are sold singulary but our feat lets you make your int worth of powder a week just like poison. So to even make more than one shot a week i have to have a boosted Int which makes gives me another stat that needs a raise so with the given dc's and taking ten i can make about my int worth of powder a week and one bullet.

Yeah not fixing the problem.

[overdark]

A Man In Black wrote:

Plus, it doesn't make the crafting rules less of a paperwork clusterf#+&.

Really, its not that difficult. Make a check, do some multiplication, make a comparison, repeat if needed.

Your right thats pretty tough.

[HappyDaze]

Talonhawke wrote:

HappyDaze wrote:

A Man In Black wrote:

Without Gunsmithing working the way it does, spellcasters with Fabricate would be the only practical gunsmiths.

You obviously failed to pay attention to what I said. I want the Gunsmithing feat to reduce the time it takes to craft ammunition and firearms much as there is a feat that does this for alchemy, but I still want the Craft (alchemy) and Craft (firearms) skills to be the basis for crafting these items.

The real question would be DC's then lets look at dc 15 for bullets and dc 20 black powder. so with a feat like Master Alchemist assuming it could be taken before 5th level or given free puts the gunslinger at needing both it and skill focus to be able to even take ten.

So both bullet and gold are sold singulary but our feat lets you make your int worth of powder a week just like poison. So to even make more than one shot a week i have to have a boosted Int which makes gives me another stat that needs a raise so with the given dc's and taking ten i can make about my int worth of powder a week and one bullet.

Yeah not fixing the problem.

See above for my initial and hasty rewrite of Gunsmithing. It's quite possible that it could be adjusted to allow a craft chekc per day (rather than per week) for ammunition.

I'd also note that bullets for early firearms are at best a DC 5 Craft (weapons) test. Using these rules, they should also be made in batches of 10 like any other form of ammunition.

[A Man In Black]

overdark wrote:

Again, yeah that the logical assumption. Do you really think a $1 bill costs more to make than a $20 bill. Your just being deliberatly obtuse.

But in 3e/PF's crafting rules, a $20 bill does take longer to make than a $1. That's one of its core problems.

HappyDaze wrote:

A fighter at level 1 can't necessarily make his weapon (composite longbow) and ammo (arrows) in a short time either.

But he can buy them. The core assumption is that you can get muscle-powered weapons (and crossbows) off the shelf, but that gunsmiths are rare.

overdark wrote:

Really, its not that difficult. Make a check, do some multiplication, make a comparison, repeat if needed.

Your right thats pretty tough.

It's not tough, merely time-consuming and annoying repeated arithmetic.

[overdark]

Guy Humual wrote:

overdark wrote:

Again, yeah that the logical assumption. Do you really think a $1 bill costs more to make than a $20 bill. Your just being deliberatly obtuse.

The point is items are valued at a certain level not only because of the complexity but also their rarity and the material that goes into them. The crafting rules simply assumes that the GP value of an item is based on it's complexity and thus more expensive items take longer to craft.

So gold coins aren't any more difficult to craft than copper coins and take the same ammount of time to craft, the resultant gold piece is just more valuable than a copper piece it doesn't necessarily have 1 gold worth of gold in it.

[Talonhawke]

Missed your version of the feat craft can be made by the day you would divde your roll by 7 so you could make black powder at a rate of a shot a day.

I figured my bullet dc based off of other ranged ammo with DC's 12 for arrows 15 for bolts. As for batches i agree i just went with RAW on how they are sold equalling how they are crafted.

Your still looking at only making one shot a day of powder which brings us to the problem which is not the feat as written but the craft rules as written. Under which we have almost an exponentail cost to time to make curve.

[Guy Humual]

HappyDaze wrote:

Guy Humual wrote:

A gunslinger requiring to make a craft check to make ammo would likely need to be about level 5 before they could reasonably craft ammo (assuming a DC 20) which means they're paying 11gp per shot before that without the feat.

You're ignoring that the Gunsmithing feat can be rewritten. Having it provide a +1 competence bonus per level on Craft (alchemy) checks to make ammunition and Craft (weapons) checks to make firearms would be a big help while being similar to (but more specialized than) the benefit the Alchemist gets with his namesake Craft (alchemy) skill. If you're feeling generous, also allow Gunsmithing to halve the base time for making ammunition and firearms. This solves the issues while still using the Craft rules. It also makes crafting ammunition and firearms cheaper (one third cost rather than half cost) since it uses the crafting rules.

The solution I'd prefer is to make bullets the same price as sling stones and black powder about a gp a shot. Then low level gunslingers aren't scrounging for ammo all the time. At the higher levels the cost of ammo becomes less of an issue and buying or crafting better guns becomes a higher priority.

Requiring skill checks to craft ammo is beyond ridiculous.

[overdark]

A Man In Black wrote:

It's not tough, merely time-consuming and annoying repeated arithmetic.

Yeah time consuming it took me like 20 minutes to make all the craft stuff I posted like 2 or 3 pages ago.

[overdark]

Talonhawke wrote:

Missed your version of the feat craft can be made by the day you would divde your roll by 7 so you could make black powder at a rate of a shot a day.

I figured my bullet dc based off of other ranged ammo with DC's 12 for arrows 15 for bolts. As for batches i agree i just went with RAW on how they are sold equalling how they are crafted.

Your still looking at only making one shot a day of powder which brings us to the problem which is not the feat as written but the craft rules as written. Under which we have almost an exponentail cost to time to make curve.

You can easily make a keg of powder per day.

[Talonhawke]

The main issue with crafting is the time limit both on making and how much can be made even if i beat the DC by 100 i can still only make one check a day so i can only make one of what ever i am making a day wether its one sword one spoon or 20 arrows.

[overdark]

Talonhawke wrote:

The main issue with crafting is the time limit both on making and how much can be made even if i beat the DC by 100 i can still only make one check a day so i can only make one of what ever i am making a day wether its one sword one spoon or 20 arrows.

Except Gunsmithing lets you make 1,000 gold worth of ammo per day.

Boy I wish people would read stuff first.

[Talonhawke]

overdark wrote:

Talonhawke wrote:

The main issue with crafting is the time limit both on making and how much can be made even if i beat the DC by 100 i can still only make one check a day so i can only make one of what ever i am making a day wether its one sword one spoon or 20 arrows.

Except Gunsmithing lets you make 1,000 gold worth of ammo per day.

Boy I wish people would read stuff first.

First off if you would read me and Happydays are talking about reaworking the feat to require skill checks and then have the feat make the crafting faster similar to the Master Alchemist feat.

Boy I wish people would read stuff first

[A Man In Black]

overdark wrote:

Except Gunsmithing lets you make 1,000 gold worth of ammo per day.

Boy I wish people would read stuff first.

And Craft Wand allows you to make 1000 gold worth of wands per day.

What's your point?

[Guy Humual]

overdark wrote:

Boy I wish people would read stuff first.

Is there any reason you're being rude?