Quriosity questions:
1) Are advanced firearms available for purchasing in PFS?
2) What happens to the no crafting feats rule of PFS and the gunsmith (for crafting alchemical cartridge)?1) No because Paizo knows exactly how broken their advanced firearms are.
2) What happens to it? You can't craft in PFS. How does that relate to anything.
That was to answer the 'its all optional' claim that someone made.
They aren't.
Go read the first campiagn guide, Golarion has guns and Gunslingers. There is no question about it. The first guide didn't include one word about GM permission (because those guns weren't unbalanced).They used to have freely available revolvers and rifles, but for some reason those all went away when the new book came out.
And I don't want to hear about your world/game in the core conceit of the world of Golarion guns exist they have existed and they will continue to exist.
If you don't want 'em in your world/game then fine. I'm not talking about your world/game, because I don't play in it.
I'm talking about the rules as they sit and the world of Golarion.
And as a Gamemaster you have the choice to allow or disallow or even adjust the rules to fit your game instead of whining about a non issue. Just my opinion, rather than continue to beat a dead horse just add the needed house rules to "your game".
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A gunsmith can craft one pistol every day. Thats 313 pistols in one year from one gunsmith (hey we'll be nice and let that guy have one day off per week right?).
If we can trust wikipedia about this, in medieval times, one simple wooden bow needed between 5 to 15 hours to be crafted - 5 for a master, 15 for a beginner. A longbow needed between 10 to 20 hours... for a beginner. Skilled english bowmen probably did it in as much time than a simple bow.
In Pathfinder, crafting a bow needs 1 week of work for a master crafter.So the punny level 1 guy crafting 356 guns (remember : weapons sucking hard for anyone who hasn't a shitload of class abilities/deeds/feats) per year with a feat - where does he find all that gold, btw ? -, when any beginner could theorically do almost the same with just some ranks and tools ?... Yeah, not impressed.
I don't say that there shouldn't be any crafting check for firearms, but crafting rules are stupid and broken enough so that anything like this is welcomed for a class that turns around using fragile weapons...
Reaper Miniatures
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huh. That crafting thing is interesting. I would think that a professional bowyer, even at level one, could craft more than 13 bows a year, and yet the tables suggest differently.
The real question I have is why is it alchemist attacks versus touch ac aren't broken yet gunslingers are? is it because gunslinger is a full bab class and alch ins't? Just trying to grasp.
huh. That crafting thing is interesting. I would think that a professional bowyer, even at level one, could craft more than 13 bows a year, and yet the tables suggest differently.
The real question I have is why is it alchemist attacks versus touch ac aren't broken yet gunslingers are? is it because gunslinger is a full bab class and alch ins't? Just trying to grasp.
The alchemist has a much higher nova potential, as well. Rapid shot+twf+bombs=dead enemies=probably out of bombs quickly.
A gunsmith can craft one pistol every day. Thats 313 pistols in one year from one gunsmith (hey we'll be nice and let that guy have one day off per week right?).If we can trust wikipedia about this, in medieval times, one simple wooden bow needed between 5 to 15 hours to be crafted - 5 for a master, 15 for a beginner. A longbow needed between 10 to 20 hours... for a beginner. Skilled english bowmen probably did it in as much time than a simple bow.
In Pathfinder, crafting a bow needs 1 week of work for a master crafter.So the punny level 1 guy crafting 356 guns (remember : weapons sucking hard for anyone who hasn't a s&#*load of class abilities/deeds/feats) per year with a feat - where does he find all that gold, btw ? -, when any beginner could theorically do almost the same with just some ranks and tools ?... Yeah, not impressed.
I don't say that there shouldn't be any crafting check for firearms, but crafting rules are stupid and broken enough so that anything like this is welcomed for a class that turns around using fragile weapons...
My response as a GM to the player at level 1 crafting 300+ guns a year is... no if you want to sell guns use craft fire arms. I rule gunsmithing is that is for your use only. I house rule it pure and simple.
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The alchemist has a much higher nova potential, as well. Rapid shot+twf+bombs=dead enemies=probably out of bombs quickly.huh. That crafting thing is interesting. I would think that a professional bowyer, even at level one, could craft more than 13 bows a year, and yet the tables suggest differently.
The real question I have is why is it alchemist attacks versus touch ac aren't broken yet gunslingers are? is it because gunslinger is a full bab class and alch ins't? Just trying to grasp.
As far as I know, you can only throw 1 bomb per round. Since crafting and throwing the bomb is a standard action.
Now having said that, there are probably some feats out there that let you full attack with bombs, but the standard alchemist gets 1 bomb per round. Period.
The gunslinger gets (or can get) full attacks with guns.
The alchemist has a much higher nova potential, as well. Rapid shot+twf+bombs=dead enemies=probably out of bombs quickly.huh. That crafting thing is interesting. I would think that a professional bowyer, even at level one, could craft more than 13 bows a year, and yet the tables suggest differently.
The real question I have is why is it alchemist attacks versus touch ac aren't broken yet gunslingers are? is it because gunslinger is a full bab class and alch ins't? Just trying to grasp.
As far as I know, you can only throw 1 bomb per round. Since crafting and throwing the bomb is a standard action.
Now having said that, there are probably some feats out there that let you full attack with bombs, but the standard alchemist gets 1 bomb per round. Period.
The gunslinger gets (or can get) full attacks with guns.
Take the Fast Bombs discovery to shore that weakness up. It's practically required for alchemists that focus on their bombs.
As far as I know, you can only throw 1 bomb per round. Since crafting and throwing the bomb is a standard action.Now having said that, there are probably some feats out there that let you full attack with bombs, but the standard alchemist gets 1 bomb per round. Period.
The gunslinger gets (or can get) full attacks with guns.
Eighth level class discovery -- fast bombs -- even lets you rapid shot and two weapon fight to throw them... a possibility of 8 bombs in a round to throw.
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Take the Fast Bombs discovery to shore that weakness up. It's practically required for alchemists that focus on their bombs.
See, like I said. Add another ability into the mix for full attacks.
8th level pre-req.Something else to balance it out, and the Alchemist doesn't get full BAB, so 3 attacks per round max. Yes I know you can get more attacks than that (haste, boots of speed, rapid shot, etc.) just going by the base number of attacks.
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Eighth level class discovery -- fast bombs -- even lets you rapid shot and two weapon fight to throw them... a possibility of 8 bombs in a round to throw.
As far as I know, you can only throw 1 bomb per round. Since crafting and throwing the bomb is a standard action.Now having said that, there are probably some feats out there that let you full attack with bombs, but the standard alchemist gets 1 bomb per round. Period.
The gunslinger gets (or can get) full attacks with guns.
Thats also going to be about all his bombs for the day, 8 + 5 (lets say) for his Int = 13 bombs per day.
So after two rounds of flinging his bombs like a madman (which would be kinda cool) he's outta bombs for the day.
Meanwhile the gunslinger keeps right on plugging away.
So yeah that one guy that gets hit with the bomb is gonna be hating life, but that splash damage is just terrible (and you get a save against the splash) and the bombs just get +1d6 on a critical since the extra damage from going up in level is 'bonus damage' and isn't multiplied on a crit. So the above 8th level alchemist does 4d6+5 (21) with his 13 bombs, or 5d6+10 (29) on a critical hit. Ok fine. When he's out of bombs, he's kinda done. Gunslinger keeps on going.
Take the Fast Bombs discovery to shore that weakness up. It's practically required for alchemists that focus on their bombs.See, like I said. Add another ability into the mix for full attacks.
8th level pre-req.Something else to balance it out, and the Alchemist doesn't get full BAB, so 3 attacks per round max. Yes I know you can get more attacks than that (haste, boots of speed, rapid shot, etc.) just going by the base number of attacks.
Well heck the gunslinger only gets 4 a round and does less damage per shot too.
10d6+Int bonus+point blank (+10 if half orc) -- Plus splash.
Compared to
1d8+Dex bonus+point blank+deadly aim
hardly worth comparing.
Take the Fast Bombs discovery to shore that weakness up. It's practically required for alchemists that focus on their bombs.See, like I said. Add another ability into the mix for full attacks.
8th level pre-req.Something else to balance it out, and the Alchemist doesn't get full BAB, so 3 attacks per round max. Yes I know you can get more attacks than that (haste, boots of speed, rapid shot, etc.) just going by the base number of attacks.
I'm confused. Gunslingers need to take certain feats, equipment, etc. to get extra attacks, and so does the alchemist.
Also, bombs do some pretty good damage when stacked up like this. Gunslinger damage may be better with enough attacks, but alchemists have a lot more tricks than gunslingers do. The fact that alchemists also have mutagens and a variety of discoveries, combined with extracts more than make up for this supposed weakness in outright damage output.
That's in fact the usual trade-off: lower BAB and HD for more features like spells and such. With some exception, of course, but the fact that the two base classes that are 3/4 BAB and don't have any spell-casting are considered the weakest classes in the game isn't an arbitrary decision made by the community.
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That's in fact the usual trade-off: lower BAB and HD for more features like spells and such. With some exception, of course, but the fact that the two base classes that are 3/4 BAB and don't have any spell-casting are considered the weakest classes in the game isn't an arbitrary decision made by the community.
Are we talking about the Rogue and the Monk here? Because saying that they are considered the weakest clsses in the game is an arbitrary decision made by the community.
Also one that I don't personally subcribe to. Having seen monks and rogues in action.
That's in fact the usual trade-off: lower BAB and HD for more features like spells and such. With some exception, of course, but the fact that the two base classes that are 3/4 BAB and don't have any spell-casting are considered the weakest classes in the game isn't an arbitrary decision made by the community.Are we talking about the Rogue and the Monk here? Because saying that they are considered the weakest clsses in the game is an arbitrary decision made by the community.
Also one that I don't personally subcribe to. Having seen monks and rogues in action.
I don't want to derail this thread, so I will try to stay more on-topic. Suffice it to say, this is something I also have experience with. The short of it is, weaker classes can still shine (as the monk I'm playing in a Savage Tide game has on occasion), and viable, fun characters are possible, even likely.
What I'm concerned with in a thread like this is: do the numbers add up? Are there any clear gaps that need closing? Any loopholes exploitable? Clarifications needed? etc. and so on.
With the gunslinger, as printed, I don't find much worth worrying over. Even the craft rules. As JJ pointed out, if your character was meant to be a merchant, he wouldn't be an adventurer.
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I don't want to derail this thread, so I will try to stay more on-topic. Suffice it to say, this is something I also have experience with. The short of it is, weaker classes can still shine (as the monk I'm playing in a Savage Tide game has on occasion), and viable, fun characters are possible, even likely.
What I'm concerned with in a thread like this is: do the numbers add up? Are there any clear gaps that need closing? Any loopholes exploitable? Clarifications needed? etc. and so on.
With the gunslinger, as printed, I don't find much worth worrying over. Even the craft rules. As JJ pointed out, if your character was meant to be a merchant, he wouldn't be an adventurer.
The craft rules are just the latest bit of shit associated with the new firearm rules that Paizo instituted.
Guns are 'rare and wondrous'. Wrong. Something that a first level commoner can crank out with one feat and no ranks in any craft skill whatsoever, aren't 'rare and wondrous'.
As to the inane question of 'where does he get the money?'. Absalom would be willing to pour gold into this hole all day long to get cannons and firearms, or he just sells guns to finance making more guns. This isn't the point. The point was the basic mechanic that bypasses all skill chacks and doesn't require skill ranks (not even 1, except for alchemical cartiges) is deeply flawed in a world sense.
Are your players gonna just sit around and craft stuff? No.
But in the grand scheme of the world, more people would make guns because they are so simple to make, its like they assemble themselves.
But I'm supposed to believe they are 'rare and wondrous' huh?
I don't want to derail this thread, so I will try to stay more on-topic. Suffice it to say, this is something I also have experience with. The short of it is, weaker classes can still shine (as the monk I'm playing in a Savage Tide game has on occasion), and viable, fun characters are possible, even likely.
What I'm concerned with in a thread like this is: do the numbers add up? Are there any clear gaps that need closing? Any loopholes exploitable? Clarifications needed? etc. and so on.
With the gunslinger, as printed, I don't find much worth worrying over. Even the craft rules. As JJ pointed out, if your character was meant to be a merchant, he wouldn't be an adventurer.
The craft rules are just the latest bit of s%~# associated with the new firearm rules that Paizo instituted.
Guns are 'rare and wondrous'. Wrong. Something that a first level commoner can crank out with one feat and no ranks in any craft skill whatsoever, aren't 'rare and wondrous'.
As to the inane question of 'where does he get the money?'. Absalom would be willing to pour gold into this hole all day long to get cannons and firearms, or he just sells guns to finance making more guns. This isn't the point. The point was the basic mechanic that bypasses all skill chacks and doesn't require skill ranks (not even 1, except for alchemical cartiges) is deeply flawed in a world sense.
Are your players gonna just sit around and craft stuff? No.
But in the grand scheme of the world, more people would make guns because they are so simple to make, its like they assemble themselves.But I'm supposed to believe they are 'rare and wondrous' huh?
It's at this point you can make two conclusions that solve this problem of yours.
A) Decide that, for the world-at-large as far as Golarion goes, that there's some resource not taken into account in the game rules that limit the supply of guns in some way. If I've never seen a gun, I wouldn't even think of what a gun was, so its rarity perpetuates itself until knowledge of guns spreads.
or
B) Divorce game mechanics from the game world itself. The rules, after all are abstractions, and not made for simulation. Since the rules as presented are made for the heroes of the game, assume that the world works a little differently for those without this destiny. Heck, since there are NPC rules, we know this to be true. How far you take that is, of course, up to you.
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Guns are 'rare and wondrous'. Wrong. Something that a first level commoner can crank out with one feat and no ranks in any craft skill whatsoever, aren't 'rare and wondrous'.
Commoners don't get to 'just pick' their feats. A guy doesn't just say 'Ima take that craft feat as start churning out guns!'
In game, he's had a lot of training and time learning to be able to do all that. Not everyone can invest that time and energy into learning.
So things don't become commonplace because everyone can take the feats to make them. They become commonplace because DMs don't do world-building with their NPCs.
Also the big problem with all this isn't the gunslinger (although I have some issues with the class).
Its the new firearm rules themselves. The new rules weren't open for playtest.
What Paizo chooses to playtest (and not playtest, in this case), is entirely up to them.
Though I get the feeling that the rules wouldn't have changed much if at all even if they were open to play-testing. They decided that guns would be different, and they are. They needed guns to be risky, and they are. They accomplished what they set out to do with them.
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So I revised the Archer and gave him GWF (don't know why I didn't the first time to be honest.) So here...
Iron Golem (CR 13) AC 28 (touch 8, flat-footed 28) [-1 Dex, +20 natural, -1 size]
Revised Fighter
Regular: 21/16 (needs 7/12 to hit) 14 damage per hit
Rolls 5s: No attacks hit (total damage 0)
Rolls 10s: 1 attack hits (total damage 14)
Rolls 15s: 2 attacks hit (total damage 28)
Deadly Aim - 18/13 (needs 10/15 to hit) 20 damage per hit
Rolls 5s: No attacks hit (total damage 0)
Rolls 10s: 1 attack hits (total damage 20)
Rolls 15s: 2 attacks hits (total damage 40)
Rapid Shot Regular - 19/19/14 (needs 9/9/14 to hit) 14 damage per hit
Rolls 5s: No attacks hit (total damage 0)
Rolls 10s: 2 attacks hit (total damage 28)
Rolls 15s: 3 attacks hit (total damage 42)
Rapid Shot Deadly Aim - 16/16/11 (needs 12/12/17 to hit) 20 damage per hit
Rolls 5s: No attacks hit (total damage 0)
Rolls 10s: No attack hits (total damage 0)
Rolls 15s: 2 attacks hit (total damage 40)
With Manyshot the archer gets these attacks (didn't include this originally because the Gunslinger didn't have a direct comparison but I can see the error behind that)
Manyshot Rapid Shot Regular - 19/19/14 (needs 9/9/14 to hit) 14 damage per hit
Rolls 5s: No attacks hit (total damage 0)
Rolls 10s: 3 attacks hit (total damage 42) [this still doesn't beat the gunslingers best median attack routine]
Rolls 15s: 4 attacks hit (total damage 56) [wow two whole points of damage, good thing he's got that one extra feat for that]
Manyshot Rapid Shot Deadly Aim - 16/16/11 (needs 12/12/17 to hit) 20 damage per hit
Rolls 5s: No attacks hit (total damage 0)
Rolls 10s: No attack hits (total damage 0)
Rolls 15s: 3 attacks hit (total damage 60) [yeah your right the archer is way superior to a gunslinger, provided you can count on rolling good all night long.]
Revised Gunslinger
Pepperbox - 18/13 (needs to not roll 1s to hit) 12 damage per hit
Rolls 5s: All attacks hit (total damage 24)
Rolls 10s: All attacks hits (total damage 24)
Rolls 15s: All attacks hit (total damage 24)
Deadly Aim Pepperbox - 15/10 (needs to not roll 1s to hit) 18 damage per hit
Rolls 5s: All attacks hit (total damage 36)
Rolls 10s: All attacks hits (total damage 36)
Rolls 15s: All attacks hit (total damage 36)
Rapid Shot Pepperbox - 16/16/11 (needs to not roll 1s to hit) 12 damage per hit
Rolls 5s: All attacks hit (total damage 36)
Rolls 10s: All attacks hits (total damage 36)
Rolls 15s: All attacks hit (total damage 36)
Rapid Shot Deadly Aim Pepperbox - 13/13/8 (needs to not roll 1s to hit) 18 damage per hit [Gunslinger never really uses anything less than this]
Rolls 5s: All attacks hit (total damage 54)
Rolls 10s: All attacks hits (total damage 54)
Rolls 15s: All attacks hit (total damage 54)
Wow your right, that made a huge difference. Now the archer wins five times (all still requiring good rolls). Still didn't include Point blank shot bonuses for either since it doesn't affect the archers numbers, +1 to attack doesn't make any more of his attacks hit and the damage bonus is pretty much a wash since they both get it.
To get all of his attacks to hit the archer can't use Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim together and still needs to roll good. The Gunslinger on the other hand can go ahead and use all of his abilities and as long as he doesn't roll 1s and 2s he hits with all his attacks.
The point being the Archer needs to consider his targets AC, the Gunslinger doesn't.
Thats fair? Is that balanced?
Hell if he had Triple Deadly Aim (-9,+18) he could go ahead and use it and still hit with (almost) all his attacks
Triple Deadly Aim Pepperbox - 9/4 (needs 1/4) 30 damage per hit
Rolls 5s: All attacks hit (total damage 60)
Rolls 10s: All attacks hits (total damage 60)
Rolls 15s: All attacks hit (total damage 60)
Rapid Shot Triple Deadly Aim Pepperbox - 7/7/2 (needs 1/1/6) 30 damage per hit
Rolls 5s: 2 attacks hit (total damage 60) [oh look he finally missed once]
Rolls 10s: All attacks hits (total damage 90)
Rolls 15s: All attacks hit (total damage 90)
Thats fair? Is that balanced? Come on now.
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Longbow-Focused Fighter (No Archetype)
Human Fighter 10
Favored Class Bonus: +1 HP each level
Human Ability Bonus: +2 Dexterity
Strength 14/16 (+2/+3)
Dexterity 19/21 (+4/+5)
Constitution 13/15 (+1/+2)
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 12 (+1)
Charisma 8 (-1)
Base Attack Bonus +10/+5; Melee Attack Bonus +13/+8; Ranged Attack Bonus +15/+10
CMB +13; CMD 31 (25 FF)
Fort +11
Ref +10
Will +6
Initiative +5
Speed 30 feet (6 squares)
AC 27 (T 18, FF 21)
HP 94
Fighter Abilities
Weapon Training: Bows - +2 to attack, damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
Weapon Training: Heavy Blades - +1 to attack, damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Bravery +3
Armor Training 2
Bonus Feats: Deadly Aim (-3/+6), Imp. Critical (Longbow), Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
Skills (only those with ranks)
Intimidate +12, Ride +17, Survival +14
Feats
Clustered Shots, Dodge, Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow), Mobility, Weapon Focus (Longbow), Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
Weapons
+2 Composite Longbow (Str +3) +21/+16; 1d8+9; 19-20/x3, P, 110' range
+1 Greatsword +15/+10; 2d6+6; 19-20/x2, S
Armor
+2 Breastplate +8; Max Dex +5, Armor Check -1
Magic Items
Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Belt of Physical Perfection +2, Cloak of Resistance +2, Efficient Quiver, Ring of Protection +2
So what am I doing wrong, that you can do soooo much better here?
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So what am I doing wrong, that you can do soooo much better here?
Everything, but math is a great starting point -- especially statistics.
So what am I doing wrong, that you can do soooo much better here?
My first guess here is your methodology. If I take the time to really pore over your builds, I may not find much, but your methodology has some wide open holes that have been pointed out upthread.
EDIT: ninja'd by the Abraham. *bows*
Something else to balance it out, and the Alchemist doesn't get full BAB, so 3 attacks per round max. Yes I know you can get more attacks than that (haste, boots of speed, rapid shot, etc.) just going by the base number of attacks.
I think your problem is that you completely ignore the fact that a class can get more attacks than the base number in their BAB. Take the TWF feats and rapid shot and by 15th level, you can have 7 attacks (3 regular, 3 twf, 1 rapid shot), and even taking the -4 to all attacks, with the bonuses and the mutagen up, you're probably going to hit every bomb, like the gunslinger, and do so much more damage than him, it isn't even funny.
Also, your archer fighter is missing 6 feats. He only has the 5 from the leveling up, but not the human bonus nor the class bonus feats. You're missing PB shot, Precise shot, Many shot, Rapid shot, WS/GWS. Those feats turn the favor to the archer, especially for damage.
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Something else to balance it out, and the Alchemist doesn't get full BAB, so 3 attacks per round max. Yes I know you can get more attacks than that (haste, boots of speed, rapid shot, etc.) just going by the base number of attacks.I think your problem is that you completely ignore the fact that a class can get more attacks than the base number in their BAB. Take the TWF feats and rapid shot and by 15th level, you can have 7 attacks (3 regular, 3 twf, 1 rapid shot), and even taking the -4 to all attacks, with the bonuses and the mutagen up, you're probably going to hit every bomb, like the gunslinger, and do so much more damage than him, it isn't even funny.
Also, your archer fighter is missing 6 feats. He only has the 5 from the leveling up, but not the human bonus nor the class bonus feats. You're missing PB shot, Precise shot, Many shot, Rapid shot, WS/GWS. Those feats turn the favor to the archer, especially for damage.
Uhm, ok. So those feats are there, but I guess it was too confusing for you to notice them in the bonus feat section of his Fighter Abilities. And those feats are included in the encounter above as well.
[EDIT] Hero*Lab doesn't let you miss feats. So awesome.And I already agreed that the alchemist can get more than 3 attacks per round, I was mearly commenting on his BAB attacks. And sooooo much more damage than the gunslinger really? A 10th level alchemist does 5d6+5 per bomb (and only has 15 per day) so thats what 25 damage per bomb. Wow. Yeah thats so much more than the 10th level gunslinger, right up until he runs out of bombs.
Deadly Aim gets that up to 31 per bomb for 15 shots per day. Gunslinger just keeps on shooting. Bazinga!
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So what am I doing wrong, that you can do soooo much better here?
My first guess here is your methodology. If I take the time to really pore over your builds, I may not find much, but your methodology has some wide open holes that have been pointed out upthread.
EDIT: ninja'd by the Abraham. *bows*
If by methodology you mean my usage of 5s and 10s and 15s for a comparison between classes. Then I don't know what to say to you.
Just because I don't use your DPR rules, I'm somehow wrong?The DPR thread just uses averages to calculate DPR. I'm making a direct comparison between two characters.
I used a REAL encounter. Not just something I made up.
I used a range of possible attack rolls (that fall in the 80% range of all numbers rolled), poor rolls, median rolls, and good rolls. Real numbers (if you roll this, then this is the result). Not some randomly generated numbers.
I'm willing to be proven wrong. You just won't do it.
Make an archer thats better than my archer (since I can't build archers), put him in the encounter above with the Iron Golem, beat my gunslinger.
PLEASE. I want you to do this. Prove me wrong.
Just saying I'm wrong, isn't proving me wrong.
Heroic NPC stats (15,14,13,12,10,8), 10th level, 62,000 gold. Thats what I used. (which is right in line with DPR characters isn't it?)
Be reasonable about spending too, just because you can afford a +5 weapon and don't need to buy magic armor to participate in this exercise. We're operating on the honor system here.
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Strength 15/18 (+2/+4)
Dexterity 18/20 (+4/+5)
Constitution 12/14 (+1/+2)
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 12 (+1)
Charisma 9 (-1)
Base Attack Bonus +10/+5;
Melee Attack Bonus +13/+8;
Ranged Attack Bonus +15/+10
- Gloves of duelist included =>
Weapon Training: Bows - +2 to attack, damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
+2 from gloves.
Attack with longbow : 10 + 5(Dex) + 2(WT) + 2(GloDuel) + 2(WF) + 2(Enh) = +25
Damage with longbow : 1d8 + 4(Str) + 2(WT) +2(GloDuel) + 2(WS) + 2(Enh) = 1d8+12
=> +2 Composite Longbow (Str +4) +25/+20; 1d8+12; 19-20/x3, P, 110' range
Rapidshot + Manyshot + Deadly Aim + PBS = +21/+21/+16; 1d8+19 19-20x3.
Against AC 28, average DPR per round using Tejon's calculator = 65,91 damage... but let's say an average of "50" damage because of DR applied once.
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Ok care to elaborate or just want to post cryptic one sentance posts.Everything, but math is a great starting point -- especially statistics.So what am I doing wrong, that you can do soooo much better here?
Sure -- you lack basic ability to use statistics in a way that's actually representative of what happens on 'average'.
There are plenty of threads where you have been given the formulas and yet you still refuse to use them. Your build was... uninspired, and the gunslinger isn't much better.
You grab a monster that is a statistical anomaly to over emphasis the point you want to make, and even then you do a rather poor job of it because you couldn't even do the math right.
You're only single claim to being near alright is the idea that you are using a 'real' encounter.
Which is a lie. Where are the other party members? What was actually rolled? How does one sample prove anything (here's a hint it doesn't).
I can provide a 'real encounter' where the gun jams on the first shot for the gunslinger, then the second shot, and the rest of them as well -- It doesn't actually prove anything other than a bad round for the gunslinger.
It's anecdotal at best and deceptive BS at worst.
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Strength 15/18 (+2/+4)
Dexterity 18/20 (+4/+5)
Constitution 12/14 (+1/+2)
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 12 (+1)
Charisma 9 (-1)
See thats where I stopped. Uhm...how exactly do you start with 15,14,13,12,10,8 and end with 15,18,12,10,12,9 (I'm assuming that the numbers after the slashes indicate magic enhnaced stats).
You get +2 for being human, +2 more for your levels. And I can't do math? Ok.
If by methodology you mean my usage of 5s and 10s and 15s for a comparison between classes. Then I don't know what to say to you.
Just because I don't use your DPR rules, I'm somehow wrong?
Yes.
The DPR thread just uses averages to calculate DPR. I'm making a direct comparison between two characters.
And not using DPR to do it. We use DPR because it's effective, modular, and generally scientific
I used a REAL encounter. Not just something I made up.
I used a range of possible attack rolls (that fall in the 80% range of all numbers rolled), poor rolls, median rolls, and good rolls. Real numbers (if you roll this, then this is the result). Not some randomly generated numbers.I'm willing to be proven wrong. You just won't do it.
It was pointed out to you that your method doesn't give accurate results. I was reiterating that, since you've refused to use the DPR method.
Make an archer thats better than my archer (since I can't build archers), put him in the encounter above with the Iron Golem, beat my gunslinger.PLEASE. I want you to do this. Prove me wrong.
Just saying I'm wrong, isn't proving me wrong.
The issues with your archer can be pointed out by better optimizers than me. All I said was the attack bonus is sub-par, which turned out to be true.
I said, in my first post, to please, please, play a gunslinger. And you didn't, and said that I was wrong. In this case we're both guilty, but the burden of proof is on you, since you have a claim to make in the first place.
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Sure -- you lack basic ability to use statistics in a way that's actually representative of what happens on 'average'.
There are plenty of threads where you have been given the formulas and yet you still refuse to use them.
Well allow me to retort.
Were not on those threads now are we?
Your build was... uninspired, and the gunslinger isn't much better.
You're right they are uninspired, they weren't made to be the 'OMG BEST CHARACTER EVER' they exist to make a comparison, so yeah I tried to keep them fairly similar to one another.
You grab a monster that is a statistical anomaly to over emphasis the point you want to make, and even then you do a rather poor job of it because you couldn't even do the math right.
Statistical anomoly huh?
CR 13 Bestiary MonstersAdult Blue Dragon (AC 28, touch 8) [difference 20]
Adult Bronze Dragon (AC 28, touch 8) [difference 20]
Froghemoth (AC 28, touch 9) [difference 19]
Ghaele (AC 27, touch 15) [difference 12]
Glabrezu (AC 28, touch 8) [difference 20]
Ice Devil (AC 32, touch 14) [difference 18]
Iron Golem (AC 28, touch 8) [difference 20]
Storm Giant (AC 28, touch 10) [difference 18]
Average AC 28, touch AC 10 [difference 18]
Yeah I guess your right, he seems to really stick out of that crowd.
I didn't pick that monster to over emphasize any thing, I picked it because I just fought the thing two weeks ago and I knew the encounter. It was also to illustrate the point (that no one has commented on) that encounters don't take place a 300+ feet. They take place on battlemat and dungeon tiles. Because this is a game, and like most games it has a board that you play on. Most encounters take place within 100 feet so that melee characters can get in there and do their thing. So like I said before if you cant get yer gunslinger in there to exploit the touch attack mechanic you just arent trying.
Sure -- you lack basic ability to use statistics in a way that's actually representative of what happens on 'average'.
But when I use average, I'm wrong because 'you can't assume average rolls because a d20 has a 5% to roll any number each time so you can't average that.'
Come on now you can't have it both ways.
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Strength 15/18 (+2/+4)
Dexterity 18/20 (+4/+5)
Constitution 12/14 (+1/+2)
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 12 (+1)
Charisma 9 (-1)See thats where I stopped. Uhm...how exactly do you start with 15,14,13,12,10,8 and end with 15,18,12,10,12,9 (I'm assuming that the numbers after the slashes indicate magic enhnaced stats).
You get +2 for being human, +2 more for your levels. And I can't do math? Ok.
Woops yeah ! My mistake. Add +1 to dex.
"What ?" you say ?
Yes, I used 20-point buy, pretty much like any other comparison build out there, and like much of PCs. The other half of PCs are made of generous dice rolls better than 20-point buy, and the occasional sadistic low-point build or random rolling. Just because you put a stupid rule of comparison while I was number mashing and not loading the page to see if you put another stupidity doesn't make me wrong.
But please continue to read a bit further even if it hurts, you'll find something interesting, like the fact an archer will on average deal 50 damage per round against the Golem, not your BS numbers.
Oh, and average touch AC from this CR is exactly 10.
Again you completely miss the point overdark -- and if you actually knew anything of statistics you would know how to incorporate both auto-misses and critical hits -- but you don't because you don't listen.
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And not using DPR to do it. We use DPR because it's effective, modular, and generally scientific
It was pointed out to you that your method doesn't give accurate results. I was reiterating that, since you've refused to use the DPR method.
Hmmm...ok so let me get this straight. Making a direct IF/THEN comparison is not scientific. IF they roll X THEN Y happens.
The issues with your archer can be pointed out by better optimizers than me. All I said was the attack bonus is sub-par, which turned out to be true.
It is? It was?
I said, in my first post, to please, please, play a gunslinger. And you didn't, and said that I was wrong. In this case we're both guilty, but the burden of proof is on you, since you have a claim to make in the first place.
I made my claim, Archer A versus Gunslinger B. Gunslinger B wins, except in a few cases when the Archer comes through with high rolls. If we just go with average (10.5) the Gunslinger wins hands down.
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Strength 15/18 (+2/+4)
Dexterity 18/20 (+4/+5)
Constitution 12/14 (+1/+2)
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 12 (+1)
Charisma 9 (-1)See thats where I stopped. Uhm...how exactly do you start with 15,14,13,12,10,8 and end with 15,18,12,10,12,9 (I'm assuming that the numbers after the slashes indicate magic enhnaced stats).
You get +2 for being human, +2 more for your levels. And I can't do math? Ok.
Woops yeah ! My mistake. Add +1 to dex.
"What ?" you say ?
Yes, I used 20-point buy, pretty much like any other comparison build out there, and like much of PCs. The other half of PCs are made of generous dice rolls better than 20-point buy, and the occasional sadistic low-point build or random rolling. Just because you put a stupid rule of comparison while I was number mashing and not loading the page to see if you put another stupidity doesn't make me wrong.
But please continue to read a bit further even if it hurts, you'll find something interesting, like the fact an archer will on average deal 50 damage per round against the Golem, not your BS numbers.
Oh, and average touch AC from this CR is exactly 10.
Oh no I actually read it, I was just being facetious. So you just went and made your own rules and expect me to take you serious. Ok. DPR thread doesn't use 20 point buys. It uses the 'Elite' array (Hero*Lab calls it the Heroic NPC set).
Ok so my rule is stupid. Well take your ball and go home then.
Going back to the original topic for this thread: Crafting
I agree with Realmwhisper (?).
The gunsmith feat allows the gunslinger to make "personal" weapons without a craft check. The class starts with a battered weapon, that is broken for anyone else. I would carry this over to any weapon the gunslinger makes himself is battered (unless made with normal craft (firearms) and the normal time taken with a craft check required).
Battered weapons only work for the gunslinger, they are broken for anyone else. If you make one and try to sell it, it sells for half price (which is what the material cost was to begin with). Heck, a gunslinger can even add masterwork to his battered weapon, but it is still battered!
I personally don't care about making the gunpowder/bullets without a craft check; I wouldn't make a ranger make a craft check to make arrows either, unless he wanted masterwork versions.
Comments?
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Wow, you seem to know a lot about DPR threads after all. I guess it means you already know about the Archer out-damaging the gunslinger then, no need to lose more time I guess. But well. ;)
Hey, let's build with Elite NPC array, same feats same build than before (hint + spoil = -1 Str so -1 Damage per arrow :(, but additional +1 to attack so higher DPR :) ) !
16 (14 +2 Belt)
20 (15 +2 Racial +2 Belt +1 Level)
14 (13 +1 Level)
10
12
8
62000
Gloves of duelist
47000
+2 Bow +3 Str
38400
+2 Dex/+2 Str Belt of Phys. Might + Bracers of archery
23400
+3 Breastplate
14150
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
12150
Cloak of Resistance +2
8150
Efficient Quiver
6350
Ring of Protection +1
4350
DPR = 66,79.
51,79 with DR counted once.
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Going back to the original topic for this thread: Crafting
I agree with Realmwhisper (?).
The gunsmith feat allows the gunslinger to make "personal" weapons without a craft check. The class starts with a battered weapon, that is broken for anyone else. I would carry this over to any weapon the gunslinger makes himself is battered (unless made with normal craft (firearms) and the normal time taken with a craft check required).
Battered weapons only work for the gunslinger, they are broken for anyone else. If you make one and try to sell it, it sells for half price (which is what the material cost was to begin with). Heck, a gunslinger can even add masterwork to his battered weapon, but it is still battered!
I personally don't care about making the gunpowder/bullets without a craft check; I wouldn't make a ranger make a craft check to make arrows either, unless he wanted masterwork versions.
Comments?
Gunsmithing
You know the secrets of repairing and restoring firearms.Benefit: If you have access to a gunsmith’s kit, you can create and restore firearms, craft bullets, and mix black powder for all types of firearms. You do not need to make a Craft check to create firearms and ammunition or to restore firearms.
Crafting Firearms: You can craft any early firearm for a cost in raw materials equal to half the price of the firearm.
At your GM’s discretion, you can craft advanced firearms for a cost in raw materials equal to half the price of the firearm. Crafting a firearm in this way takes 1 day of work for every 1,000 gp of the firearm’s price (minimum 1 day).
Crafting Ammunition: You can craft bullets, pellets, and black powder for a cost in raw materials equal to 10% of the price. If you have at least 1 rank in Craft (alchemy), you can craft alchemical cartridges for a cost in raw materials equal to half the price of the cartridge. At your GM’s discretion, you can craft metal cartridges for a cost in raw materials equal to half the cost of the cartridge. Crafting bullets, black powder, or cartridges takes 1 day of work for every 1,000 gp of ammunition (minimum 1 day).
Restoring a Broken Firearm: Each day, with an hour’s worth of work, you can use this feat to repair a single firearm with the broken condition. You can take time during a rest period to restore a broken firearm with this feat.
Special: If you are a gunslinger, this feat grants the following additional benefit. You can use this feat to repair and restore your initial, battered weapon. It costs 300 gp and 1 day of work to upgrade it to a masterwork firearm of its type.
The gunsmith feat allows the gunslinger to make "personal" weapons without a craft check.
Wrong.
I would carry this over to any weapon the gunslinger makes himself is battered (unless made with normal craft (firearms) and the normal time taken with a craft check required).
Except thats not how the feat works. This isn't the house rules forum.
I personally don't care about making the gunpowder/bullets without a craft check; I wouldn't make a ranger make a craft check to make arrows either, unless he wanted masterwork versions.
Yeah thats great, except Gunsmithing allows you to make masterwork guns without checks too.
I understand what your trying to say here, but the simple fact is that this feat is just poorly thought out. They made crafting guns more like crafting magic items than crafting weapons and armor.
Fine. But you still need to have skill ranks and make checks to make magic items, not firearms.
Lame.
Can I house rule this, sure. Will I? Probably. That wasn't the point I was trying to make, which was that this was just the latest revelation in Paizo's new flawed gun rules.
Wow, you seem to know a lot about DPR threads after all.Admittedly I don't know much about this 'calculator' but my Gunslinger is currently sitting at DPR average 77.55.
Even by your rules I still win. Since the last time I checked 77 was more than 69.
Where did you get the 77.55?
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Where did you get the 77.55?Wow, you seem to know a lot about DPR threads after all.Admittedly I don't know much about this 'calculator' but my Gunslinger is currently sitting at DPR average 77.55.
Even by your rules I still win. Since the last time I checked 77 was more than 69.
Ok wait it was adding STR as well. So how do you make it add DEX to damage. Still sitting at 62.70. Now if it would just add my DEX to damage.
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Gunslinger DPR 69.30 (still more than 66.79)
So even using your precious DPR calculator I win.
Full Attack: 69.30
Damage +1: 3.30
Extra Attack: 23.10
Single Attack: 23.10
Damage +1: 1.10
Whatever the hell all that means. I assume that will mean something to you DPR fanatics.
Again I've just started messin with this thing, but it seems fairly straight forward.
1 to turn on feats. Dice average. Enhancement Bonus. Etc, etc.
Gunslinger DPR 69.30 (still more than 66.79)
So even using your precious DPR calculator I win.
Full Attack: 69.30
Damage +1: 3.30
Extra Attack: 23.10Single Attack: 23.10
Damage +1: 1.10Whatever the hell all that means. I assume that will mean something to you DPR fanatics.
Again I've just started messin with this thing, but it seems fairly straight forward.
1 to turn on feats. Dice average. Enhancement Bonus. Etc, etc.
Just one question -- where's the build?
Because you know -- you never actually posted it.
I mean you've thrown a lot of numbers around -- and even threw out a fighter longbow build -- but I'm not seeing a gunslinger build.
Which is of course because you haven't posted it.
Can't we just ignore overdark? All he seems to ever do is complain and argue for arguments sake.