I'm not going to get into the fantasy world economics, but I still stand by the idea that since the game had a system for crafting all other nonmagical gear, guns and ammo should use the same system.
Adjusting prices would be a good start. 1 gp for 10 bullets and 2 gp for 10 shots of gunpowder might make using the crafting rules easier.
The only way to bring prices down in an emergent gun setting is to proliferate them. So guns prices are necessarily high. The fact that the craft rules rely on prices for crafting is a simple abstraction that works against the gunslinger in this case. So they get their own rules, which are used by PCs and are written as such that they don't pofit from the high market price of rare guns.
Makes perfect sense to me. Thanks to the speed of crafting these items, it works perfectly for an adventurer. Which is who these rules are written for.
I'm not going to get into the fantasy world economics, but I still stand by the idea that since the game had a system for crafting all other nonmagical gear, guns and ammo should use the same system.
Adjusting prices would be a good start. 1 gp for 10 bullets and 2 gp for 10 shots of gunpowder might make using the crafting rules easier.
The only way to bring prices down in an emergent gun setting is to proliferate them. So guns prices are necessarily high. The fact that the craft rules rely on prices for crafting is a simple abstraction that works against the gunslinger in this case. So they get their own rules, which are used by PCs and are written as such that they don't pofit from the high market price of rare guns.
Makes perfect sense to me. Thanks to the speed of crafting these items, it works perfectly for an adventurer. Which is who these rules are written for.
Thank you!!!!!!
Where would that 1st level gunslinger get the money to craft stuff? You know treasure in D&D and Pathfinder is scaled right?
Whatever man, your right I guess it's all fair. Your right 1st level gunsmiths should be able to make guns with no checks. While magic item crafters are still required to make checks, regardless of their rate of success, they still have to make checks. If, and, but, yeah thats a compelling argument.Your right.
How about a gunsmith in the employ of Absalom, they've got plenty of money.
1st level gunsmiths can turn out a pistol per day. No checks.
1st level wizards cant make anything better than low-level wand, scrolls and potions. With checks.
Again you fail to realize that no GM is going to use Gunsmithing in that fashion you are making a NON point here. Unless you game with pure MUNCHKINS (which if that is the case you really should find a different game group.) this whole thing is a non point. It is not broken, if you have a problem then limit using Gunsmithing to make Ammo and Guns to Gunslinger's gear only and require Craft:Firearms for Pistols up for sale to the Public. Problem solved with little or no work to the actual rules. Why keep complaining about such a non issue that does not need to be changed.
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You can make more than one bullet per day. 1,000 gold worth of ammo, not sure of the exact ammount that comes out to but I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say more than one.And Craft Wand allows you to make 1000 gold worth of wands per day.
What's your point?
My casters can each make ~9,600 miniatures per day. Granted, that's not a bullet, but we could make bullets on the equipment we have here, if we had the materials (gunpowder, brass, etc.).
As far as the actual bullet part - the round lead shot, yes, we could easily make almost 10,000 per day, one person. Knowing the process, even without the centrifuge, one of our smiths with a tab mold (like most bullets are made in) could easily produce a few thousand.
you are at that point limited only by the number of mods on hand, and number of cavities per mold. a mold takes X time. It produces Y bullets. Assuming a 3 minute cool (yes, this is realistic. We actually run our figures on a 1 minute cool, but I'm being generous) one can run each mold 120 times a day, and most bullet molds do 6 or more, but even one caster with a 6 bullet mold and 8 hours to work could make 960 in an day.
That is, in fact, realistic.
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you are at that point limited only by the number of mods on hand, and number of cavities per mold. a mold takes X time. It produces Y bullets. Assuming a 3 minute cool (yes, this is realistic. We actually run our figures on a 1 minute cool, but I'm being generous) one can run each mold 120 times a day, and most bullet molds do 6 or more, but even one caster with a 6 bullet mold and 8 hours to work could make 960 in an day.
I want to add that with 3 molds, you can cycle the 3 molds in 1 minute increments: minute 1, pour and tap mold one. minute two, pour and tap mold two, minute 3, pour and tap mold 3. minute four, release mold one, reset, pour and tap. this will add only a few seconds to the process, and one minute per mold is STILL a generous number, given that we cycle a new mold every 45 seconds, and that includes release and reset of each mold.
The numbers for 3 molds increase potential output of one craftsman to 2,880 bullets. No craftsman worth his salt possesses only one mold of the one thing he relies on for his living. Imagine a cooper having only rig to make barrels. He'd be out of business the day it broke.
Again, this also assumes the bullet only - the cartridge is another thing entirely, but under RAW, crafting the cartridge IS another thing entirely.
The other thing to concern oneself with is caliber - a .55 caliber bullet - 55mm in diameter (roughly) yields only 28 to a pound. It would take 38.28 pounds of lead. That's not cheap. The larger the bullet, say for a musket, the more lead you'd need. Be sure to buy 40 pounds of lead per day...
I cleaned up some posts. Is it that hard to be nice to one another?
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As far as the gunslinger and the time it takes him to make a gun:
However, you'd be correct in saying that this doesn't show that the current solution is a good one. I would even agree that it isn't. I mean come on, one feat and you're pumping out a pistol every single day? One a week would be acceptable. One a day is a little ridiculous.
Is the Gun made by the Gunslinger by use of this feat AND with NO RANKS in craft gunsmithing automatically Battered/Broken as the gun he begins play with is? Because if it is, I find it pretty realistic that with just a FEAT and no SKILLS, somebody could make Really Crappy Guns(TM) that break if you use them, at a rate of 1 per day. So you spent 500gp on materials to make a pistol that, because it is battered, is worth 4d10.
People with ranks in craft gunsmithing (as per pg 101, as discussed on page 1 of this thread) make guns that aren't battered/broken. They also must follow normal item creation rules, and their guns aren't battered/broken.
Of course, if the gun made by the feat isn't the Battered version, one a day seems excessive, yes. This is a big "IF" that probably needs to be addressed.
Further - the gunsmithing feat has this to say :If you are a gunslinger, this feat grants the following additional benefit. You can use this feat to repair and restore your initial, battered weapon. It costs 300 gp and 1 day of work to upgrade it to a masterwork firearm of its type.
Does this mean that the battered gun, for the simple cost of 300gp is now no longer battered? Or simply that you have a masterwork battered pistol? Still, it is a 800gp investment for a pistol you can sell for 1,000gp. Every other crafting check in the game has a higher rate of monetary return than that....
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Is the Gun made by the Gunslinger by use of this feat AND with NO RANKS in craft gunsmithing automatically Battered/Broken as the gun he begins play with is?No, it's just an ordinary gun.
Does this mean that the battered gun, for the simple cost of 300gp is now no longer battered? Or simply that you have a masterwork battered pistol? Still, it is a 800gp investment for a pistol you can sell for 1,000gp. Every other crafting check in the game has a higher rate of monetary return than that....You now have a perfectly ordinary masterwork firearm, after doing that.
Thank You.
I do have to admit that I might be tempted to rule in my home games that guns made by those with the feat and no skill check were battered, and that those made with craft ranks and a skill check were not, but that does seem to fly in the face of RAW. I might also rule that the 300gp +1day activity can either fix the broken or upgrade to MW, but not both. But again, that's houserules.
Is there a way to repair the battered firearm apart from making it MW as above without ranks in craft:firearms?
Is there a way to repair the battered firearm apart from making it MW as above without ranks in craft:firearms?
Unfortunately, no. It only works on their battered gun so they can only ever do it once.
However, I would point this out.
First of all, the core rules assume that PCs sell items at half their base cost.
Gunsmithing allows you to make a weapon at half base cost. Which means the gunslinger can make a 1000gp pistol for 500gp.
The gunslinger goes to sell his pistol, which he made for 500gp and gets 500gp. He has no profit, no loss, and needs to make himself a new gun. The end result is he loses time.
A masterwork pistol is worth 1300gp. A character can spend 300gp to turn his battered weapon masterwork (and can only do this once). If he sells the pistol, he gets 1/2 of 1300gp, for a total of 650gp. HOWEVER, he is also without a gun now so he'll need to spend 650gp to make another masterwork pistol or spend 500gp in order to make a normal pistol.
If he makes a MW Pistol, he has no loss and no profit, and has wasted about three days. If he makes a regular pistol, he has no profit, used up two days and has lost 150gp from the 300 he spent to make his battered pistol masterwork.
So yeah, it isn't really all that worrying. Gunsmithing is useless to make money with by making guns. All it does is ensures that the gunsmith won't suddenly find himself unable to find a replacement if one explodes in a misfire.
Finally, to add a few more numbers:
It costs 300gp + Base Cost to make an item Masterwork.
Masterwork Longsword: 315gp
Masterwork Great Axe: 320gp
Masterwork Composite Long Bow: 400gp
Masterwork Heavy Crossbow: 350gp
Masterwork Pistol: 1300gp
Masterwork Musket: 1800gp
PCs can get their masterwork items anywhere for the right cost. A gunslinger can make a masterwork gun once for 300gp, after which he has to pay the half-price in materials, meaning he pays about double what a any other masterwork weapon would cost and has to spend at least two days doing nothing but crafting it while the other PCs can just go into a shop and get their item off the rack.
I wasn't commenting on the general system, just the fact that Gunsmithing bypasses all the previous checks and balances for crafting items.How about the fact that no other class in the game has to spend 11g at the least per shot if they just buy their ammo?
If we assume three first level ranged characters, Gunslinger Bow user, Crossbow user, lets say over one day and each takes 10 shots.
The gun user needs 110g to buy his ten shots at this level.
The bow user needs 5s to pay for his shots.
The crossbow user needs 1g to pay of his shots.
So the check and balance is that anyone else can just buy their weapon and ammo for a small amount and only need craft for complex or rare items.
Figured i would bump my own arguement since the Tro...I mean OP seems to want avoid answering a most logical thoughts.
Why would a gunslinger get less money for a gun than book price?
From the PFSRD
Selling TreasureIn general, a character can sell something for half its listed price, including weapons, armor, gear, and magic items. This also includes character-created items.
Trade goods are the exception to the half-price rule. A trade good, in this sense, is a valuable good that can be easily exchanged almost as if it were cash itself.
Sectioned Referenced. Also found on page 140 of the Core Rulebook.
This means that no one can use the Gunsmithing feat to make a profit. If players want to retire and become merchants so they can sell guns at full price, then more power to them. Firearms are rare items that can only be afforded by the rich and powerful. As such, they don't fly off the shelves and stick around a long time. The merchant ties up money in the item and won't make it back until it sells. That extra 50% is the profit that makes the time it takes to find the buyer worth not having the capital on hand for other transactions and opportunities.
This is what happens when you sell through middle men. You don't get the full value of the object because the person you sell it to intends to make a large profit selling it on, which they can't do if they give you anywhere near full value.
EDIT:
Also, look at it this way. If I walk into a shop to sell a sword and the merchant pays me the base price of the weapon, what happens when he goes to sell it? He'll only get the base price back, meaning he made no money and tied up capital in the sword in the meantime. He would have been better off not buying the sword.
However, if the same merchant pays half price, he doubles his money when he sells the sword at full price.
The unspoken logic is this. Craft skill users make things at a cost of one third of the base price. They sell it to the merchant for 1/2 the base price. The merchant sells it to the general populace for the base price. The merchant and the craftsman both make a profit. The craftsman could charge more when selling the item, but that means he is spending time selling when he could make more to sell and ensure an income. The merchant could pay more for the item, but it means that he won't make as much, which will cause his stock to stagnate as he can't afford newer items and also mean he has less money to expand and keep his business going.
Tobias, I think there is plenty of room for craftsmen to sell their own items. Most RPGs I've played that try to emulate some sort of reality have a lot of down time between adventures.
I see where you are coming from, but to me the rule about selling prices is just a nit picky game balance rule that doesn't have much of a place in emulation.
Oh, and I agree. But the point is that, default rules as written there is no way to make a cent with gunsmithing. It requires the GM to be exercising judgement, which also means that there is no way to exploit it any further than the GM will allow it. For example, they might have been able to make some money if the GM decides there is demand, but the moment they get abusive the demand dries up and the price fixes itself.
I also agree that craftsmen can try and sell for more, but there's such a thing as wearing too many hats. Merchants exist because its easier to have someone else looking for the final buyer than looking for him yourself.
PCs rarely have the time to act as a merchant and go find someone who will pay them full price for the item. Its time consuming and it can take months (if not years) to find someone who wants to buy the expensive items. Games that do that are far from common though, and there are other factors a GM can consider to keep players from setting up firearm sweatshops.
This is why I just don't see the speed at which gunsmiths can make firearms as very broken. It's extremely difficult to abuse, and is only as bad as the GM allows it to be.
Hmm... But now I'm thinking of setting up a gunslinger in a Kingmaker campaign who churns out guns to arm a few squads of the nation's army... That could be fun to play or run. ;)
Could always sell ammo for a profit. You can make 1000g of ammo a day at 10% cost so that means you sell it all for 5000g gold.
And then your GM smacks you with a book for even thinking it.
Could always sell ammo for a profit. You can make 1000g of ammo a day at 10% cost so that means you sell it all for 5000g gold.
And then your GM smacks you with a book for even thinking it.
Player: Why can't I do that? The book says that I can sell it for that amount!
GM: You expect them to buy hundreds of gp of bullets for guns they don't have, can't afford, and wouldn't know how to use if they did...
Sigh... I guess I'm lucky that I've never played with groups that feel the need to try and look for ways to abuse the rules.
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I cleaned up some posts. Is it that hard to be nice to one another?
I'm not the one that started with the name calling.
Calling someone a troll is still insulting, just because it may be accepted by a majority of people on this forum doesn't make it less isnulting.
If thats all you can contribute, just go away.
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REVISED
20th level human Expert
Basic NPC stats
Int 20 (base 13 + 2 human + 5 levels)
Craft (armor) +30 (20 ranks + 5 Int + 3 class skill + 2 masterwork tools + 6 skill focus)
Mithril Full Plate 10500 gp. DC 19 (well 29 really)
So taking 10 gets him a 46 check so thats 1,334 sp per week so that comes out to 78.71 (79) weeks.
Number of pistols crafted by 1st level gunsmith with no skill ranks and non-masterwork gunsmithing kit during the same time period, 553.
Your right thats fair. I don't know what I was thinking.
Value of armor at end of crafting. 10,500 gp.
Value of guns at end of crafting. 1,106,000 gp.
What other crafter gets to make 1,000 gp/day with no checks [auto checks ARE different because they are only automatic IF you have skills and/or feats].
Also you can't take 10 when crafting magic items.
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I don't remember who mentioned the Rival Guide NPC or for what reason.
Argentine Blades CR 13 [Average AC 20, T 13]
Dulci (Oracle 10) AC 23, T 15
Estella (Fighter 6/Duelist 4) AC 24, T 18
Exander (Wizard 10) AC 16, T 12
Tatius (Fighter 10) AC 20, T 10
Children of Steel CR 23 [Average AC 27, T 17]
Derrak (Fighter 20) AC 30, T 14
Echean (Wizard 20) AC 24, T 16
Inaris (Cleric 20) AC 28, T 14
Wotywina (Rogue 20) AC 29, T 24
Dust Coven CR 19 [Average AC 27, T 15]
Mizzinastre (Annis Hag Witch 15) AC 31, T 16
Vhalhisstre (Drider Cleric 8) AC 35, T 13
Xeyog (Ranger 16) AC 21, T 15
Zelfane (Rogue 6/Shadowdancer 10) AC 24, T 18
Hands of Slaughter CR 11 [Average AC 17, T 11]
Aliciette (Bard 7) AC 13, T 12
Azygos (Druid 8) AC 13, T 12
Isai (Socerer 9) AC 16, T 12
Yrure'tugala (Dire Ape Antipaladin 5) AC 27, T 11
Hellblood Corsairs CR 21 [Average AC 26, T 17]
Belia (Oracle 18) AC 30, T 18
Molatunde (Barbarian 5/Sorcerer 12) AC 20, T 10
Captain Ozrin (Fighter 18) AC 30, T 23
Shavran (Rogue 13/Red Mantis Assassin 5) AC 25, T 19
Kodar Kneecappers CR 7 [Average AC 15, T 11]
Marnay (Cleric 3) AC 19, T 11
Matrena (Ranger 2/Rogue 3) AC 18, T 13
Phethean (Wizard 4) AC 15, T 11
Thortona (Barbarian 1/Fighter 3/Ranger 1) AC 16, T 10
Marrow Reavers CR 12 [Average AC 20, T 13]
Azrikalis (Quasit Rogue 6) AC 22, T 17
Lamya (Ranger 8) AC 22, T 13
Najak (Gnoll Barbarian 8) AC 19, T 10
Narim (Sorcerer 8) AC 18, T 14
Night Harrows CR 17 [Average AC 24, T 15]
Adgrif (Rogue 6/Assassin 8) AC 21, T 16
Mierela (Sorcerer 7/Harrower 7) AC 20, T 14
Nuetetia (Aristocrat 3/Cleric 13) AC 28, T 15
Vesnic (Vampire Fighter 4/Ranger 9) AC 29, T 15
Poisoned Lodge CR 9 [Average AC 16, T 12]
Areen (Rogue 6) AC 18, T 13
Ish (Ranger 5) AC 19, T 14
Mattie (Cleric 7) AC 16, T 10
Sussessa (Sorcerer 6) AC 14, T 14
Queen's Hands CR 15 [Average AC 21, T 12]
Anya (Summoner 11) AC 18, T 12
Ogoshae (Eidolon) AC 23, T 13
Lerwynn (Bard 13) AC 19, T 12
Victus (Cleric 12) AC 23, T 12
Wil (Fighter 8/Hellknight 4) AC 25, T 13
So yeah thats an impressive roster of suck touch AC.
Next.
Ok, so clearly there was an error, and an errata is needed to get a DC in there for crafting. I would say, because of the nature of the weapon, double the DC to craft a repeating crossbow should suffice. No need to over complicate the thing with arguments about how a level 1 expert could make millions on them when all an observant DM has to do is place a DC on it, problem solved.
*Twiddles thumbs* Still waiting.
I don't know. There isn't much to firearms once you know what you are doing. I read about a guy out in Russia that as a hobby builds AK-47s with ancient tools. For example, a barrel is just a pipe.
I don't think making them should be terribly difficult. Characters with ranks in a class skill to build them should be able to take 10 and get it done.
Adjust that DC based on the type of firearm. You want to make a simple one shot musket that could be one thing, you want to make a M-16 A2 three shot burst rifle, that is another.
I only allow the early era firearms in my campaign setting, and I have never had a character waist (I say waist, others say use) the skill points or feats on crafting skills. They are quite pleased in buying things in the local shops and I am quite pleased not stating out the gunsmith to make sure he can make the weapons.
I'm going to put out there, way after the fact, but it's still valid: guns replaced pretty much all other forms of combat. I don't see why they wouldn't here? Especially when repeaters are involved.
1. Actually having something bad happen on a one.
2. Without the Gunsmithing feat they are prohibitavly expensive.3. Early firearms have short range to be touch attacks keeping higher damage swords still in charge range.
4. Magic is still around.
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bunches of stuff we've already covered
Thanks for the effort, but it wasn't needed. We've already proven that the touch AC mechanic isn't broken, and that the crafting of guns using the rules provided make NO MONEY at all. This thread is over.
I hate to sound like I'm losing patience, but it needs to be put out there. Thanks for the discussion, but if there were any doubts, we all put our heads together and figured it all out.
The numbers add up, the rules all fit, there's no exploitation to be seen here. AKA not broken.
REVISED
20th level human Expert
Basic NPC stats
Int 20 (base 13 + 2 human + 5 levels)Craft (armor) +30 (20 ranks + 5 Int + 3 class skill + 2 masterwork tools + 6 skill focus)
Mithril Full Plate 10500 gp. DC 19 (well 29 really)
So taking 10 gets him a 46 check so thats 1,334 sp per week so that comes out to 78.71 (79) weeks.
Number of pistols crafted by 1st level gunsmith with no skill ranks and non-masterwork gunsmithing kit during the same time period, 553.
Your right thats fair. I don't know what I was thinking.
Value of armor at end of crafting. 10,500 gp.
Value of guns at end of crafting. 1,106,000 gp.
What other crafter gets to make 1,000 gp/day with no checks [auto checks ARE different because they are only automatic IF you have skills and/or feats].
Also you can't take 10 when crafting magic items.
Your math is wrong. Players sell for half price, not base price.
If I make something for half its worth, then sell it for half its worth, what is my profit?
Income from sale - Cost of material = Profit.
In the case of the 10,500gp armor:
Income from Sale (1/2 Worth - As per the Selling Treasure section of the PFSRD and Core Rulebook) - Cost of Materials (1/3 Worth - As per craft skill use)
5250gp - 3500gp = 1750gp Profit
In the case of the 1,106,000gp gun supply:
Income from Sale (1/2 Worth - As per the Selling Treasure section of the PFSRD and Core Rulebook) - Cost of Materials (1/2 Worth - As per Gunsmithing feat use.)
553,000gp - 553,000gp = 0gp Profit
In 79 weeks, the Gunslinger spent 316 times the amount the Expert did and made nothing. He has likely starved to death, as a 1st level character can't afford that kind of expense or he has extremely annoyed and violent investors with deep pockets after him!
Not that this facts are going to be acknowledged. After all, you completely ignored a discussion that pointed out that very flaw and did nothing to address the fact.
Please, overdark, it's clear that you haven't really read the rules and considered how they interact. You aren't considering drawbacks or even some of the basic rules of the system. Why not let this lie for a few months, re-read the rules with fresh eyes, try a gunslinger in play and see what you think then, because it doesn't seem you're actually listening to or even willing to consider any of the rules or drawbacks that the things you claim are broken have balanced or limited by.
As for me, I'm still not convinced that allowing the crafting of items (guns and ammunition) without the use of a Craft skill is appropriate. If the crafting skills need to be reworked as a whole, then let's see if we can get that done (as is currently happening with Stealth), but there is no reason that firearms and ammunition shouldn't follow the usual rules. The current writing of Gunsmithing is an ugly patch that should not be necessary.
How do you feel about the numbers i posted earlier as a viable reason.
bunches of stuff we've already coveredThanks for the effort, but it wasn't needed. We've already proven that the touch AC mechanic isn't broken, and that the crafting of guns using the rules provided make NO MONEY at all. This thread is over.
I hate to sound like I'm losing patience, but it needs to be put out there. Thanks for the discussion, but if there were any doubts, we all put our heads together and figured it all out.
The numbers add up, the rules all fit, there's no exploitation to be seen here. AKA not broken.
Declaring a thread is over when others are still interested is rude. if it's over for you, fine, but if that's the case just bow out.
As for me, I'm still not convinced that allowing the crafting of items (guns and ammunition) without the use of a Craft skill is appropriate. If the crafting skills need to be reworked as a whole, then let's see if we can get that done (as is currently happening with Stealth), but there is no reason that firearms and ammunition shouldn't follow the usual rules. The current writing of Gunsmithing is an ugly patch that should not be necessary.
The reason I declare so isn't because of a lack of interest. It's because there's no real controversy. The thread was about how the rules were broken, and abuse-able, and it turns out they're not.
If you want to discuss how the lack of a skill check is ugly, go ahead. There are actually a few reasons they don't follow the normal rules. They've been outlined upthread. The short of it is this: since there is no profit to be made, and gunslingers need guns and ammo to work, in a world where these things are scarce at best, let's just make sure they can have enough for themselves without needing too much downtime to bog down play.
If you think, that after all that, a check needs to be made, that's your prerogative.
How do you feel about the numbers i posted earlier as a viable reason.
As for me, I'm still not convinced that allowing the crafting of items (guns and ammunition) without the use of a Craft skill is appropriate. If the crafting skills need to be reworked as a whole, then let's see if we can get that done (as is currently happening with Stealth), but there is no reason that firearms and ammunition shouldn't follow the usual rules. The current writing of Gunsmithing is an ugly patch that should not be necessary.If you're the one that put numbers up saying that Craft makes things too slow and/or at too much cost, and thus Gunsmithing is necessary to make the Gunslinger viable, then you might have missed my point. I want a unified system for crafting. Currently, every non-magical item except firearms an ammo uses one system and then there's the "patch" of Gunsmithing...
Why not adjust the numbers for crafting to allow for reasonable creation of firearms and ammo with Craft. This would then trickle down and allow other characters to make items (weapons, ammo, etc.) in more reasonable periods of time.
What your asking for is something we will doubtfully see in PF 2.0 but until then the choices were clear for the Devs:
1. Guns use regualar rules. This makes the class unplayable since the time spent to make one days allocation of shots is months.2. Give gunslingers a Band-aid similar to Master Alchemist. This lead to craftless crafting but now i can make the ammo i need to be a gunslinger.
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I'm going to put out there, way after the fact, but it's still valid: guns replaced pretty much all other forms of combat. I don't see why they wouldn't here? Especially when repeaters are involved.1. Actually having something bad happen on a one.
2. Without the Gunsmithing feat they are prohibitavly expensive.
3. Early firearms have short range to be touch attacks keeping higher damage swords still in charge range.
4. Magic is still around.
I'm just saying that they should be really powerful, also the pricetag that comes with each gun is because of having to transport such an item, unless you are in a major city near the manawastes, you have to transport them really far. Personally, I think guns should be 2-die affairs.
Reworking craft will take a lot more effort. Don't misundertand Craft needs to be reworked just don't see it a nearly as high a priority as a skill that is used by at least 1 person per group i would be willing to wager.
Calling someone a troll is still insulting, just because it may be accepted by a majority of people on this forum doesn't make it less insulting.
I wholeheartedly agree. It is no less an insult just because people seem to favor it.
Also you can't take 10 when crafting magic items.
Why not? I have seen you get enough things wrong in this thread that you may not be trusted without a rules quote.
IMO, most early firearms are considerably less complex than a repeating crossbow.
It was a randomly chosen DC, but the reason for that high of a DC is such. Gun control. A higher DC has the potential to regulate the number of guns that the players craft in the course of the campaign and limit the number in the world as well.
If you want the players to be able to crank out more guns in the course of a campaign then you could lower that DC to the equivalent to making a long or short sword.
Basically, setting the DC only requires a bit of fore thought and common sense from the DM. How many guns am I comfortable with in the world? How difficult do I want to make this to dissuade or promote the idea of crafting guns?
IMO, most early firearms are considerably less complex than a repeating crossbow.It was a randomly chosen DC, but the reason for that high of a DC is such. Gun control. A higher DC has the potential to regulate the number of guns that the players craft in the course of the campaign and limit the number in the world as well.
If you want the players to be able to crank out more guns in the course of a campaign then you could lower that DC to the equivalent to making a long or short sword.
Basically, setting the DC only requires a bit of fore thought and common sense from the DM. How many guns am I comfortable with in the world? How difficult do I want to make this to dissuade or promote the idea of crafting guns?
The cost involved already makes guns unbelievably rare, which is also why the base cost drops depending on how wide spread firearms become.
Gunsmithing isn't meant to represent creating a firearm from scratch. That's why the costs go up to 1/2 base cost. I find that the best way to represent it is as simple assembly of the firearm. There isn't really a need for a check since he takes the time to make sure the pieces are fitting and working properly, since it is assumed that it simply works.
Where is he getting the pieces for the guns? They're just available or he's picked them up along the way. Sure it's handwaving, but it's no different than 5gp giving spellcasters an infinite supply of every possible material component they will ever need when they buy their spell component pouch, or diamond dust being available at every street corner.
Yes, this is a work around for the normal craft rules, but it is necessary to make firearms viable while keeping with their rarity and expense. The fact that they explode from normal use sets them apart for everything else created by the Craft skill and makes them more like a cursed item created by a mage.
A mage can make a +1 sword in about the same time as a Gunsmith can make a basic musket. The mage needs to make a check to prevent the magic item from being cursed or destroyed (both of which he can avoid by working within his skill level). The gunsmith doesn't, but his work does not give the weapon enhancement bonuses AND it is automatically "cursed".
So while it doesn't follow the basic craft skill it does follow most of the ideas behind magic item creation. The only thing that is ignored is the check to see if something goes wrong because the item is always flawed.
I am in agreement that the Gunsmithing "patch" was made necessary by the fact that the general crafting rules don't scale properly as items get beyond the 100-gp range.
I, too, would rather see a reworking than just a patch.
Here's an odd suggestion: How do people feel about a log scale for crafting? Once you get to 100 gp, multiply each additional result by 10; once you get to 1000 gp, multiply each additional result by 1000; etc.
Under this rule, the masterwork mithril craftsman above does:
134.4 gp the first week (total 134.4 > 100, triggers x10)
1344 gp the second week (total 1478.4 > 1000, triggers x100)
13440 gp the third week (total > 10,500, finishes)
So that 20-level expert is going to make just about anything in a few weeks with the raw materials. Seems to work pretty well.
We could line it up with magic crafting by capping things at 1,000 gp a day (which this master will hit in the third week).