|
What would be the best for a sundering specialist? The two-handed fighter archtype looks pretty good. There is also the Breaker barbarian archtype plus the rage powers that allow bypass of hardness(only once per rage though). Got an adventure coming up for a level 14 character and I am trying to think of a build.
hmm...
Two hand fighter/barbarian + power attack + magical adamantine lucern hammer = pissed off party when they find their loot in tiny pieces.
What would be the best for a sundering specialist? The two-handed fighter archtype looks pretty good. There is also the Breaker barbarian archtype plus the rage powers that allow bypass of hardness(only once per rage though). Got an adventure coming up for a level 14 character and I am trying to think of a build.
Actually I wouldn't worry too much about Archetypes personally. Just a vanilla two handed fighter will do well at the job. I would recommend the Improved Sunder and Greater Sunder feats. Then you will want an adamantine weapon with as many plusses as you can afford (have to make sure your weapon has as many or more plusses than the opposition so you can sunder it). The Lucerne Hammer does look good if you want to sunder armor. Also throw in gloves of dueling of course, as that will help as well.
Then you will want an adamantine weapon with as many plusses as you can afford (have to make sure your weapon has as many or more plusses than the opposition so you can sunder it).
I do not believe that in Pathfinder you need to have a weapon with a higher or equal bonus in order to sunder the item. Instead each bonus gives the item more DR and HP, so it takes more to sunder them. The result is that you still want to be able to do as much damage as possible, but perhaps a bonus 1d6 to dmg would outweigh a +1 for a sundering focused weapon. (Adamantine will get you through most all the DR and then lost of damage to chop her in half).
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Half-orc barbarian, follower of Rovagug (with the Sacred Smasher trait). Take the Gatecrasher alternate racial trait and the Smash feat. Wield a Maul of the Titans. Take the Destroyers Blessing feat to regain rage rounds and heal yourself when you sunder things.
I do not believe that in Pathfinder you need to have a weapon with a higher or equal bonus in order to sunder the item. Instead each bonus gives the item more DR and HP, so it takes more to sunder them. The result is that you still want to be able to do as much damage as possible, but perhaps a bonus 1d6 to dmg would outweigh a +1 for a sundering focused weapon. (Adamantine will get you through most all the DR and then lost of damage to chop her in half).
From PRD
"Damaging Magic Weapons: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon struck."
Same is true for the Hardness and Hp
"Magic Armor, Shields, and Weapons: Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to the hardness of armor, a weapon, or a shield, and +10 to the item's hit points."
Also Adamantine ignores hardness less than 20
'Adamantine: Mined from rocks that fell from the heavens, this ultrahard metal adds to the quality of a weapon or suit of armor. Weapons fashioned from adamantine have a natural ability to bypass hardness when sundering weapons or attacking objects, ignoring hardness less than 20"
Also note that a barbarian with a +1 furious weapon can sunder a +3 item while only paying for a +2 weapon. Bonus note: your the only class with a +2 weapon that bypasses DR silver/cold iron.
Gloves of dueling provide a bonus against Sunder, not for performing a Sunder CMB.
Gloves of dueling also improves a fighter's weapon training by +2, like a free weapon specialization and greater focus in one item.
Go Barbarian for the Sunder enchantment rage power. It let's you temp cutoff Wpn enchants without wrecking your loot.
Gloves of dueling also improves a fighter's weapon training by +2, like a free weapon specialization and greater focus in one item.Gloves of dueling provide a bonus against Sunder, not for performing a Sunder CMB.
Which means the Gloves of Duelling do add a bonus to Sunder CMB checks, as per the PRD :
Weapon Training ........ A fighter also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with weapons from this group.
Well...since this has been necroed....tisk tisk..I will use the opportunity to add in another peice of info as to why barbarian is the way to go for a sunder specialist. Barbarians have the rage power Smasher which lets them ignore all hardness. So while an adamantine weapon may be great it will not ignore the hardness of other adamantine objects, smasher however ignores it. Take that adamantine full plate fighter.
....Necro thread...lovely... Anyway, on top of what lab rat stated, my DM loves throwing weird, and new customized materials, weapons, magic items, at us. Part of this are objects that have hardness's even into the 40's. Adamantine is only 20, but the smasher rage power will allow me to cut through my DM's diamond encrusted adamantine walls, or armor like butter with a light saber. Lol.
Barbarians also get access to probably the most broken, in a good way, ability or function there is, if you can get a way to replenish your rage rounds... Spell sunder. Depending on build it can destroy a construct, remove harmful effects from allies, dispel black tentacles, and so on. I get a chance now and then to use it, but when I do, my party loves me for it. It saves the casters from having to use a dispel, or for our party to having to deal with the spell at the time. I just rage, spell sunder it, beat its CMD by 10 and poof...it's gone. Combo this with the few ways a barbarian can get rage rounds back, and its practically a dispelling, suppression machine, for free. Spells take up slots, which aren't unlimited. The sunder rage combos are.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Monk.
Here me out...
Assuming you play that the Sunder combat maneuver is a standard action, the only class that can sunder multiple times in a full attack (FoB's) is Monk.
Martial Artist archetype can ignore an items hardness or DR for a full turn as a swift action.
Would this make the Monk better then a Barbarian or Fighter? I don't know, but it is a viable option to consider, especially if you play that sunder = standard action.
What archetypes stack with Martial Artist?
Almost none.
Underfoot Adept and Sensei (which loses it's ki pool)
The Stonelord Paladin is nice for sundering, too.
His version of smite evil ignores some hardness, I think class level.
And you can do it for class level rounds per day.
|
|
Brother of the Seal is nice too.
A Martial Artist/Breaker Barbarian going into Brother of the Seal is a strong option.Pick up an Adamantine Monk weapon to finish it up.
I think the Sai gives a +2 bonus to both Sunder & Disarm maneuvres. If I recall correctly the +2 to disarm is from the "disarm" special quality and the +2 to sunder is in the weapon description itself.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
|
Agree called shot is not in the raw; but I agree I would till allow called shots I would make the weapons out of better stuff. I love using the crafting system so that would work for me.
I would also ask if you don't use a called system and I sunder armor. Does that mean every piece of the full platemail armor is broken or just the chest piece. Our my fist so great I craked your boots with my single mighty blow? I think a cording to RAW that is how it would work but to each his own.
i played a half elf barbarian once with ipmroved sunder and a adamantine lucerne hammer was realy cool to bad we only came across one guy with metal armor
Human Barbarian with Spell Sunder/Superstion/Greater Beast Totem (with favored class bonus to superstition) with Improved Sunder and a Maul of the Titans. Everyone will cower in fear as your sunder their weapons, their armor, and even their buffs!
Oh and I should've mentioned Come and Get Me. They attack you with their weapon, you get an attack of oppurtunity that resolves before they hit. You use your attack of oppurtunity to sunder their weapon! Haha! Don't forget to take Strength Surge so you never ever fail a sunder check. You will also probably want to take a level of Oracle with the Lame curse and 1 level of Rage Prophet so you can Rage cycle before level 17. Levels 19 and 20 of barbarian don't provide anything too amazing, so you don't miss much. Being able to use all your once per rage powers every round it totally worth the loss.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hold off taking the one level in oracle or rage prophet for rage cycling. Your better off getting a cord of stubborn resolve, found in the Ultimate Equipment book, to rage cycle practically for free, and cheaper too.
Scarlet and Green Cabochan Ioun Stone, flawed 8,000 Gold for rage cycling. And if you don't like being sickened; take Internal Fortitude rage power.
oh yeah combat reflexes and come and get me are awsome ways of dealing with enemy's :-)
I would use the piston maul if I was in the mood for complete destruction of the items/objects I'd be attacking. The extra damage is good, but is not as important in use for giving the broken condition. If you want to get to the broken condition for an item, that's fine, but if you decide to destroy it, it will take powerful magic to bring it back. That's not including the magical abilities, if it had any. Also, if I destroy the item, and have greater sunder, then the extra damage will go to the enemy. Under that specific circumstance I'd use the piston maul. An extra +4 damage per attack is a nice boost. If I have that extra damage however and don't really need it, if I decide to just break the item and not destroy it, than its wasted use to just reach the broken condition.
Still, just a thunder stone to charge it, it's cheap, but over time adds up. Have a party member, or up yourself make the stone for 1/3 price.
It is a nice weapon, just not sure I'd use it every time.
so what is the feat progression you would use for the ultimate sundered?
For barbarians, since they are the best at it...
Imp sunder, greater sunder, str surge, spell sunder,
Not too many feats add to sunder, besides the actual sunder feats, of which there is the two. anything that can increase your attack roll, or CMB roll, will increase your sunder.
Will write more about it later.
For barbarians, since they are the best at it...
Imp sunder, greater sunder, str surge, spell sunder,Not too many feats add to sunder, besides the actual sunder feats, of which there is the two. anything that can increase your attack roll, or CMB roll, will increase your sunder.
Will write more about it later.
I just joined a campaign with such a character, a level 11 human barbarian, Spell Sunder, Improved Sunder, Strength Surge, etc. I haven't had a chance to sunder anything yet, but I'm looking forward to it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
For barbarians, since they are the best at it...For Two-Handed Fighters (since THEY are best at it). . .
When it comes to sundering inanimate objects, there's a good argument for either Barbarians or Two-Handed Fighters being the best. The reason I think Barbarians are better is that Spell Sunder, especially when combined with Strength Surge, makes a Barbarian the best dispeller in the game.
My 11th level, 20 point-buy, barbarian uses the following math: 1d20+34 vs. 15+CL to suppress +10 to dispel.
For a caster level of 20, suppress the effect on a roll of 2
For a caster level of 11, dispel the effect on a roll of 2
That's . . . amazing! It's way better than casting Dispel Magic. With rage cycling, or simply when outside of combat so that I can take 18 seconds per spell, I can do this 27 times per day. As a bonus, when in magical darkness I get to say, "I'm attacking the darkness!"
For Two-Handed Fighters (since THEY are best at it): Power Attack (with additional class bonuses), Shattering Strike (class feature), Doubled Strength bonus (class feature), Improved Sunder and Greater Sunder. You could add Sundering Strike for more chances to sunder and if you are a Half-Orc (or Human with the Racial Heritage feat) there is also Smash which reduces Hardness by 5. You also could be using a big 2h weapon with Sunder bonuses like a Lucerne Hammer and if you want to cover ALL your bases you could take a few levels in Barbarian just to acquire some of their abilities, but the 2h Fighter is the way to go.For barbarians, since they are the best at it...
Imp sunder, greater sunder, str surge, spell sunder,Not too many feats add to sunder, besides the actual sunder feats, of which there is the two. anything that can increase your attack roll, or CMB roll, will increase your sunder.
Will write more about it later.
I totally disagree with fighters being better than barbarians. One single rage power, strength surge, puts anything the fighter could get as a boost, and puts it to shame. But let's see what the true highest numbers for both fighter and barbarian are, and you will see how the barbarian wins.
Let's compare shall we...
Level 20 for both
Fighter: BAB 20+ (18 base str + 2 racial bonus + 5 inherent book bonus + 5 level bump + 6 enhancement item= 36 (+13) + imp. Sunder 2+ grt. Sundr 2+ weapon training 5 + weapon focus/grtr weapon focus 2+ gloves of dueling 2+ bracers of skilled manuever 2 + ioun stone resonate ability in wayfinder 2+ shattering strike 5 + dueling weapon (with+5 enhancement) 15 + devastating blows trait 2= +67....this is including multiple items, including the +15 total CMB bonus from a dueling-fg weapon.
Barbarian: BAB 20 + str. Mod +13 (look to fighters str score to see how I got +13) + str surge 20+ IMp. Sunder 2. + grt. Sunder 2 + rage mod 4 + wayfinder ioun stone 2 + bracers of skilled manuever 2 + furious dueling weapon (+5 base weapon, furious increases enhancement to +7, dueling-fg doubles and adds enh. So 7x2=14+7= +21 weapon total) 21 added + devastating blows 2= +88!
Non raging barbarian: all the same as above, just no +4 rage, no str surge, and the weapon is +15 not +21 for overall CMB addition. So, +88- 4-20-6= +58.
Non rage barbarian = +58; fighter +67... The barbarian is only +9 less on his sunder, when not raging than the fighter is, at top form. That's ridiculous.
Now... The str score, BAB, imp/grt. Sunder, bracers, ioun stone, and trait are all identical... Without those...
Fighter : Wepon training with gloves +7 , + shattering strike +5, +15 dueling weapon=+27
Barbarian: str. Surge +20, + rage +4, dueling furious weapon +21= +45,
-difference between both weapons is only a +6 (dropping barbarian to a +39 diff, if lowered to match fighter. That is still a +12 difference in favor of the barbarian.
So as you can see, the barbarian clearly out sunders the fighter. Now, the fighter might be able to do some more damage due to double str. Or double power attack for more damage. But as for the to hit, barbarian wins hands down.
Lucerne hammer is only for armor or shields, not that great overall.
Barbarians gain spell sunder which is just way too amazing to list all the juicy details of its awesomeness. Also, witch hunter which can help with sunset attempts on spell caster like enemies. Also, smasher rage power, ignores all hardness. The fighter might be able to ignore 5, or even the wrecker oracle to ignore 10 or 15 hardness, but the barbarian ignores ALL hardness. That alone is better than all other sunder types. Not including spell sunder, or the +88 CMB to sunder, plus rage cycling to boot. Throw in the few feats that can allow you to get back rage rounds when you make a sunder attempt, and you never run out of rage.
Impact Weapon +2 enhancement, raises damage by one size category... so on a 2h sword, 3D6 instead of 2D6...
I wouldn't go Sunder though, Disarm. Keep the loot rather than smash it.
Lo' and behold, the thread which just will not die! It's either got a great Raise Dead caster around, or a bloody skeleton template applied!