I'm joining a new Pathfinder group pretty soon and I still need to figure out what I want to play. The GM told us not to bother with rolling for ability scores or a point-buy system. He just gave us 81 point to distribute however we like (each score between 8-18, before racial mods). This results in some pretty high scores, of course. So I figured I'd play something that requires high scores.
The other 3 party member are basically physical damage dealers of various kinds, so I thought about playing a caster. I always wanted to play a MT so I tried to come up with a decent build. Here's what I've got so far:
Elf (mostly for the +2 caster level against SR)
Cleric 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/Wiz 4
Ability scores at level 1
STR 9
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 20 (all increases go here)
WIS 18
CHA 8
Arcane Bond: Ring
The character is basically a Wizard with a bit of cleric. I definitely want to play him as a primary caster (not that you have much choice with an MT anyway).
And ... well, that's pretty much all I've come up with so far. I don't really know how to build the character, which arcane school or domains to pick, which feats, and so on.
I thought about going with Transmuter so I can use the school bonus to increase STR to 10. Might allow me to use a bow every now and than (mostly on low levels).
For Domains, most of them don't seem to do much with only 3 cleric level. I guess I can't go wrong with Travel and Liberation, but maybe someone can point me to other domains that work well with an MT.
As for feats, I'm still trying to figure out whether Arcane Armor Training and Mastery are worth getting. With Mastery, I could still cast without failure in Mithral Breastplate + Mithral Heavy Shield, which would definitely increase my survivability. But the caster level 7 requirement means, I won't get Mastery before level 11. And before that, I'm limited to a mithral chain shirt (plus mithral buckler/light shield, but those don't have ASP anyway).
Even as Elf I'll probably need Spell Penetration, maybe even the Greater one to compensate for the lack of caster levels. Beyond that, I'm clueless what to take (Besides Improved Initiative which is a staple on all my characters).
So yeah, any advise would be welcome. But note that we play Core Rules ONLY. I hope I can convince the GM to allow at least a few APG spells and/or feats, but these things should be considered off limits for now.
Conjuration is a good school for you as a mage to specialize in. My suggestion is to get Augment summon as soon as you can and to focus on battlefield control.
Well, Conjuration has probably the best spell list overall, that's true. But with only 7 Levels of Wizard, I'll never get Dimensional steps, which leaves me with Summoner's Charm - which will only be like +3 rounds for most of my character's career - and Acid Dart, which is a total waste of a class ability. I will use Conjuration spells, but I don't think Specializing in the school will do me any good.
That's why I consider Transmutation. A free +1 Enhancement Bonus to a a single ability score is not much, but still better.Note that clerical divinations rock the house, so you can pretty safely make divination an opposition school. Your other opposition school might be necromancy, since you can cover a lot of that from the clerical end also.
Yeah, I thought about dropping Divination and will probably do so. As for my second opposed school, I'll go with either Necromancy or Enchantment. Not entirely sure which one.
There's a trait---magical knack I think it is, that you can use to put your mage casting level back up towards par.
Well, as I said, we are playing Core only, so no traits for me. I'll see if I can convince my GM to allow the Additional Traits feat so I can get Magical Knack.
Here's the thing about the arcane armor training---you're going to have a lot of uses for your swift actions as a MT. Whipping out a lesser metamagic rod of quicken to drop a low level buff (e.g., haste)as you cast something else and move out of harm's way is going to be a mainstay of your contribution to your party.
Well, that can still be done. I'm just limited to Divine Spells for one round whenever I want to cast a quickend spell. But you are probably right. Mage Armor + Magic Vestment on my robe and my buckler should provide a decent AC for pretty much a whole day. And I definitely have enough spell slots to spenda few on defensive spells like mirror image.
Without any plans to use armor, I can also drop my strength to 8 in favor of my dexterity. I think I'll raise it to 15, using the transmuter bonus to even it out. Another +1 Initiative, Reflex and attack with my crossbow doesn't seem too bad.
Best advice I can give you: make very, very sure that this is a very casual game. The mystic theurge, for most of the game, is essentially a couple of low-level caster henchmen for the rest of the group, rather than an equal partner. When the party is 5th level and you COULD be throwing awesome battlefield control spells like stinking cloud if you'd just stuck with one class, instead you're a wizard 3/cleric 2 or something, and are still having a hard time with web. In other words, you don't pull your weight as a caster, in a hard-line, death-is-lurking-around-the-corner game, and you force your teammates to spend most of their time babysitting you. In a very deadly campaign like Age of Worms, they will resent you for it.
On the other hand, in a very casual, nothing-too-deadly game, your breadth of spells makes you an exceptionally fun and entertaining character.
Well the campaign takes place in Golarion but is entirely homebrew. The rest of the party are pretty powerful characters.
- an archer (don't know which class exaclty, I think fighter)
- a barbarian
- an assassin. A custom class, basicaly a rogue with all kinds of powerful abilities added like a fighter's weapon training and the assassin's death attack - among other things. Completely overpowered, if you ask me but oh well, the GM allowed it so I'll have to deal with it somehow.
So yeah, I totally expect the campaign to become quite challenging, combat-wise. I've considered a bunch of other classes but I'm not sure about any of them, either. So far I thought about:
- a pure wizard. Always powerful, but with the "just put 81 points in your ability scores" rule, playing a non-MAD character seems like a total waste. I'm also playing a wizard in another group, so I want to avoid it.
- Eldritch Knight.
- Pure cleric, battle/support hybrid, can easily have good wisdom and good strength.
- Bard, melee/buffer hybrid
- Druid, Melee/caster hybrid, using wildshape for combat while still having very good wisdom for spell DCs.
With these 4 characters, I fear that I'll be reduced to healbot/buffer sooner or later because I can't keep up with the damage output of the other party members.
If the APG was available, I could go for Inquisitor or Witch or something. But with the Core only restiction, it's surprisingly hard to get something I'd like to play that'll also not feel invalid.
Well, if anyone has suggestions, I'd be glad to hear them.
I'm joining a new Pathfinder group pretty soon and I still need to figure out what I want to play. The GM told us not to bother with rolling for ability scores or a point-buy system. He just gave us 81 point to distribute however we like (each score between 8-18, before racial mods). This results in some pretty high scores, of course. So I figured I'd play something that requires high scores.
The other 3 party member are basically physical damage dealers of various kinds, so I thought about playing a caster. I always wanted to play a MT so I tried to come up with a decent build. Here's what I've got so far:
Elf (mostly for the +2 caster level against SR)
Cleric 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/Wiz 4Ability scores at level 1
STR 9
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 20 (all increases go here)
WIS 18
CHA 8Arcane Bond: Ring
The character is basically a Wizard with a bit of cleric. I definitely want to play him as a primary caster (not that you have much choice with an MT anyway).
And ... well, that's pretty much all I've come up with so far. I don't really know how to build the character, which arcane school or domains to pick, which feats, and so on.I thought about going with Transmuter so I can use the school bonus to increase STR to 10. Might allow me to use a bow every now and than (mostly on low levels).
For Domains, most of them don't seem to do much with only 3 cleric level. I guess I can't go wrong with Travel and Liberation, but maybe someone can point me to other domains that work well with an MT.As for feats, I'm still trying to figure out whether Arcane Armor Training and Mastery are worth getting. With Mastery, I could still cast without failure in Mithral Breastplate + Mithral Heavy Shield, which would definitely increase my survivability. But the caster level 7 requirement means, I won't get Mastery before level 11. And before that, I'm limited to a mithral chain shirt (plus mithral buckler/light shield, but those don't have ASP anyway).
Even as Elf I'll probably need Spell Penetration, maybe even the...
I do not quite understand: Do you really mean 81 point-buy as in ordinarily 15 point-buy? In that case your ability scores should be much higher. Also I am not quite sure: Do you start at level 1 or 20, i.e. is that a theoretical class combination or the one with which you would like to start? And how much money will you have?
I do not quite understand: Do you really mean 81 point-buy as in ordinarily 15 point-buy? In that case your ability scores should be much higher. Also I am not quite sure: Do you start at level 1 or 20, i.e. is that a theoretical class combination or the one with which you would like to start? And how much money will you have?
No, i's not a point-buy. I simply got 81 points to spread among my abilities as I see fit. I.e. if I decide my character should have at least 10 in each score, my point pool would be reduced to 21. Raising one score to 18, while leaving all other at 10 would cost me 8 additional points, leaving 13 more to spend.
Short version: No point buy, raise stats however you want (8-18 for each stat before racial mods), the total of all your ability scors can't exeed 81.
Based on how exactly you spread the points, the results roughly equals what would be a 35 to 45 point buy in the standard Pathfinder rules.
Ah, I think I got your 81 points now: Each ability score costs corresponding points :-)
If you go for mystic theurge, I would advise against a low charisma score. It determines your channel energy ability, opposed charisma checks and several feats are based on it. Are you deadset on elf and wizard? Because you could go for a cleric/sorcerer combination. You could focus on 2 ability scores (wis and cha) and use the spontaneous conversion aspect of the combined spells feature of the MT.
So I would build one this way:
Race: human
Classes: Cleric 3/Sorcerer 4/Mystic Theurge 10/Sorcerer 3
Abilities (81 points distribution) at level 1:
Str 10
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 18
Cha 18 + 2 racial = 20 (all further points go into that)
Sorcerer bloodline: Aberrant
Cleric domains: luck, travel
In general, you should go for feats that benefit both your classes. Metamagic feats, item creation feats and the like are your friends.
Sample progression:
1h extend spell
1 combat casting
3 silent spell
5 still spell
7 arcane strike
9 heighten spell
11 preferred spell (one of your cleric spells you would always like to be able to cast)
13 quicken spell
15 empower spell
...
Using the aberrant sorcerers ability to streatch your arms to deliver touch attacks can be very helpful, even if it's just for curing. The luck and travel domains' bonuses are already useful at low levels.
Besides that it's very simpel: Get bracers of armor to avoid having to wear armor and getting ASF. Stat boosters are your friends, as well as some cure light wounds wands. Rings of Wizardry will help you, as will pearls of power.
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Well, if you want to play a caster, but don't want to be stuck as a healbot/buffer, then you definitely don't want mystic theurge. Because that'll be most of what you end up doing since your spell damage won't be comparably good.
With your point system, you could probably get away with making a druid that has good stats for casting and melee combat. Paired with a good animal companion, you could do all the spellcasting stuff you felt like and still really rip it up in combat when you wanted to.
A combat-oriented cleric is still a very viable option. Instead of buffing the party, you buff yourself, take your mace, and go clubbin'. While still having the full power of your spell list behind you.
It sounds like you want to stay away from wizard, so I won't go into that. If you can stand the paladin code for your game, you can make a pretty impressive damage machine with those stats. However, you give up the opportunity of 9th level spells.
I do not quite understand: Do you really mean 81 point-buy as in ordinarily 15 point-buy? In that case your ability scores should be much higher. Also I am not quite sure: Do you start at level 1 or 20, i.e. is that a theoretical class combination or the one with which you would like to start? And how much money will you have?No, i's not a point-buy. I simply got 81 points to spread among my abilities as I see fit. I.e. if I decide my character should have at least 10 in each score, my point pool would be reduced to 21. Raising one score to 18, while leaving all other at 10 would cost me 8 additional points, leaving 13 more to spend.
Short version: No point buy, raise stats however you want (8-18 for each stat before racial mods), the total of all your ability scors can't exeed 81.
Based on how exactly you spread the points, the results roughly equals what would be a 35 to 45 point buy in the standard Pathfinder rules.
I took some time to post, didn't see your post reply before. But seems I got it right ;-) Still, your level and wealth remain unanswered...
Here is an alternative build suggestion which is more martially capable:
Race: elf
Classes: Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Wizard 4
Abilities (81 points distribution) at level 1:
Str 10
Dex 16 +2 racial = 18
Con 14 -2 racial = 12
Int 18 +2 racial = 20 (all further increases go here)
Wis 18
Cha 8
Wizard specialization school: none (universal wizard), bonded item: ring
Cleric domains: luck, travel
Arguments for domains as before. I would not specialize in a school, you lose to many options this way. I am playing a transmuter in another campaign btw, and I find that it is not worth it. Rather get pearls of power, that is IMO better in the long run than being penalized with opposition schools.
As for feats:
1 Defensive combat training
3 Combat casting
5 Point-blank shot
7 precise shot
9 Arcane strike
11 Weapon finesse
13 arcane blast
15 Spell penetration
17 Greater spell penetration
19 ... whatever you want...
Since you're an elf, you can use the bow. With a +5 bow, arcane strike and buffs you'll be quite good, at least on the first few attacks. You can cast true strike to hit for sure (quicken it once in a while!), use haste and other nice spells for the group and yourself. Scribe scrolls can be used for both your classes, so you're good there as well. Arcane blast allows you to hurt golems and other baddies with high SR. Weapon finesse means you can focus on dex to be even acceptable in melee. Spell penetration means your spells will overcome SR, one of the big problems at higher levels. The point-blank/precise shot feats will benefit your bow as well as your ranged touch attacks (e.g. from enervation, scorching ray etc.). Defensive combat training will help you resist grapples and the like, otherwise you will be easily caught.
Besides that, get yourself the typical equipment: Stat boosters (mental first, then physical), cloak of charisma, ring of wizardry (enchant your bonded item, remember you can add many enchantments, not just one -> rings of wizardry I & II & III & IV, featherfall, sustenance, ...), wands of cure light wounds (don't waste your spells being the healbot for your buddies), bracers of armor, ring of protection, amulet of natural armor... It's fairly straightforward.
Btw, I realized preferred spell in the previous example is from the APG, sorry about that :-/
Ah, I think I got your 81 points now: Each ability score costs corresponding points :-)
Yup :)
If you go for mystic theurge, I would advise against a low charisma score. It determines your channel energy ability, opposed charisma checks and several feats are based on it.
I don't think channeling is something I should focus on. My character will never have more than 2d6. Even many times per day, that won't do me much good.
As for opposed charisma checks: I'm not a big fan of enchantments and the school is my top pick as opposed school.I'm not quite sure which feats are charisma based...
Are you deadset on elf and wizard? Because you could go for a cleric/sorcerer combination. You could focus on 2 ability scores (wis and cha) and use the spontaneous conversion aspect of the combined spells feature of the MT.
I'm not DEADset, but pretty set on elf. But yes, I could get the free Spell Penetration from being huma, too. And that is the main selling point of the elf race for me (to at least slightly counter the lack of caster levels).
Wizard is quite a bit more appealing than Sorcerer. Wizard allows me to get into MT one level sooner, and I really prefer a high Int over Cha. Looking at the group, I think we won't have anyone with good int and knowledge skills if I go with sorcerer instead.Too bad there's no Sage bloodline in the core rules ^^
Race: human
Classes: Cleric 3/Sorcerer 4/Mystic Theurge 10/Sorcerer 3
Abilities (81 points distribution) at level 1:
Str 10
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 18
Cha 18 + 2 racial = 20 (all further points go into that)
That's 82 points ;)
Sorcerer bloodline: Aberrant
Cleric domains: luck, travel
Luck is a very good buff, but the range is a bit short, even with long limbs. I'd prefer to stay away from the front lines, though I could use it on the archer, I guess.
I'm sill a bit torn between Luck and Liberation. I like the Domain spells of Liberation better and the level 1 ability could really save me, even if it's only 3 rounds per day.7 arcane strike
No arcane strike for me. For a character that has los BAB, it's a waste.
11 preferred spell (one of your cleric spells you would always like to be able to cast)
Again: Core only :-/
Well, if you want to play a caster, but don't want to be stuck as a healbot/buffer, then you definitely don't want mystic theurge. Because that'll be most of what you end up doing since your spell damage won't be comparably good.
Oh, no. I don't mind buffing. I do however mind being stuck as buffer if I play a character who should also be good at something different (like a melee bard). As a MT, I'm totally fine with buffing and battlefield control.
With your point system, you could probably get away with making a druid that has good stats for casting and melee combat. Paired with a good animal companion, you could do all the spellcasting stuff you felt like and still really rip it up in combat when you wanted to.
A combat-oriented cleric is still a very viable option. Instead of buffing the party, you buff yourself, take your mace, and go clubbin'. While still having the full power of your spell list behind you.
Well, I considered both options. I'm not quite sure a druid is the right class for me. Somehow the thought of playing one doesn't feel right.
A Battle-Cleric is my second most likely choice at the moment. But I'm not too fond of a character who won't be good in melee unless he has like 4 buffs running at the same time, most of which have too short a duration to cast them before combat. Never played a cleric and I might just be totally missing the point of the battle cleric and the correct way to play one, though.If you can stand the paladin code for your game, you can make a pretty impressive damage machine with those stats.
Paladin actually doesn't sound too bad. But I don't like characters without magic. And by "magic" I mean at least 6 spell levels, like a bard.
Thanks to both of you for your sugegstion. I'll consider everything :)
Wow, already another post. Thank you! :)
Still, your level and wealth remain unanswered...
Yeah, sorry about that. We start at level 1, so starting wealth, I guess.
Abilities (81 points distribution) at level 1:
Str 10
Dex 16 +2 racial = 18
Con 14 -2 racial = 12
Int 18 +2 racial = 20 (all further increases go here)
Wis 18
Cha 8
That's 84 points... ;)
Wizard specialization school: none (universal wizard), bonded item: ring
Cleric domains: luck, travelArguments for domains as before. I would not specialize in a school, you lose to many options this way. I am playing a transmuter in another campaign btw, and I find that it is not worth it. Rather get pearls of power, that is IMO better in the long run than being penalized with opposition schools.
Well, the cleric levels cover the most important Divination Spells. And I don't plan to use many Enchantment or Necromancy spells. So giving them up doesn't seem too bad.
Also, as far as I understand the rules for Combined Spells, I should be able to cast the spells of my opposed school as cleric spell without spending 2 slots on them. The MT is pretty much the best character to specialize.[feats and archery stuff]
Between being a high level Wizard and a mid level cleric, I doubt that I'll have the time to use a bow or any other weapon very often. I'm fine with being a caster who hardly ever does something else (that's why I play a pure wizard in the other group). I'm just not sure how to REALLY make it work with an MT.
Scribe scrolls can be used for both your classes, so you're good there as well.
Oh, I totally plan to use that to my advantage :)
Arcane blast allows you to hurt golems and other baddies with high SR.
APG feat. :(
Weapon finesse means you can focus on dex to be even acceptable in melee.
I'll stay clear of any form of melee combat. It's not like I'll be able to do much even with weapon finess and arcane strike.
Spell penetration means your spells will overcome SR, one of the big problems at higher levels.
Yes, I thought about this as well. Makes playing an Elf even more likely, since the racial bonus stacks with the feats.
Defensive combat training will help you resist grapples and the like, otherwise you will be easily caught.
I'll think about that!
Btw, I realized preferred spell in the previous example is from the APG, sorry about that :-/
Oh, I don't mind! Not at all! I'm kinda surprised and glad that someone even reads all that text I'm typing here ^^
So yeah, thanks again! :)
Ah, my brain seems to be hardwired to pbs and prone to be faulty - yeah, that was a bit too much in terms of points ;-)
I am starting to understand more clearly what you want. It's just very difficult to me to be limited to core. Though I only use Pathfinder Core material in our campaigns that always means APG, UM and probably UC as well. So this is an interesting exercise ;-)
OK, so you want to overcome spell resistence and do not mind to specialize. I understand the argument about using the cleric side to cast spells from those schools that you oppose, but honestly think it won't work as you believe. The spell lists of wizards and clerics are just too different for that, and the nice spells from those schools you would give up only rarely appear on the other list. But YMMV - my experience with the specialization has not been good so far. But in that case it would probably make sense to ban divination and necromancy. Enchantmentment I would not ban since hold monster and other spells easily end combats. Also if that homebrew game should take place in cities, it might be great to simply influence people and not just slaughter them ;-)
But as someone else mentioned, be sure that your fellow party members can pull you through the difficult times. You'll go through a tremendous valley of tears with a MT until you can pull your weight, and even then it is going to be hard since the CRB does not really have much nice stuff for you. At the very least I would try to push use magic device as much as possible, including getting skill focus for it. This way you can - as you level up - at least get wands that can help compensate for your weak in-between-state (e.g. wand of fireball or such). My other character went through that kind of drop, he will always be at least 1.5 spell levels behind others, and now at level 14 he starts being diverse and strong enough to compensate. It was quite frustrating I must say. So be sure you want to play a MT anyway and that you will be able to manage the situations ahead.
So is there anything else I can recommend...
Well, for feats you can look to stuff that benefits all your classes: combat casting, metamagic, skill stuff, item creation and the like. Be sure to check with your DM if there will be time to create items - if not, don't take any that you do not get for free.
Thinking about the classes, druid seems to be more and more appealing: You get more cool stuff in the first three levels that will help you (just don't take the animal companion, take the domain!), and you could get a spell focus (conjuration) and augment summoning - helps both your classes. So a druid 3/ wizard 3/ MT 10/ wizard 4 would be my first choice. Do not memorize cure spells, get a wand for them. Use your wizard class for problem solving, buffing and battlefield control, the druid as damage dealer. You could take heighten spell and greater spell focus (conjuration) to make sure those web spells keep your opponents entangled, regardless of SR. Spell penetration line adds onto your elven bonus, but then you should also take spell focus (evocation) IMO to make it worthwhile - no point in taking them when you pick spells that have no SR ;-)
In general, be very careful about how you progress and which feats you take. Even toughness might be worthwhile to make you live long enough (The -2 con for elves is a big disadvantage IMO, I rather take the human bonus feat and extra skill points. Even half-elf is better IMO)...
Alternatively you could always take bard, of course. To me it's kind of a natural MT... Did I mention I love playing bards? ;-P
Finally, a few wilder ideas:
- Druid 3, bard 2, dragon disciple 3, MT 10, druid 2: You get boosts, armor, a breath weapon, sorcerer abilities etc - and can still wear light armor like elven chain!
- Take a level of monk in between. Yes, it delays your already bad spellcasting, but it will greatly up your survivability, that WIS bonus to AC helps and stacks with bracers of armor. Since you'll have a divine caster, you'll push it up anyway, so picking up decent saves, unarmed strikes etc. might be worth a thought.
Good luck!
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Well, I'll talk about the cleric then :)
Clerics don't need four buffs running all at once to be able to lay some melee smackdown.
Let's see...
Str 18 18
Dex 10 (+2 racial) 12
Con 14 (-2 racial) 12
Int 8 (+2 racial) 10
Wis 18 18
Cha 13 13
Clerics get the fighters advantage of heavy armor, and the spellcasters advantage of 9th level spells.
At first level, you play mainly as a fighter. You can start combat off with a bless if desired, or a shield of faith if you want.
As you gain levels of cleric, you get better and better abilities to keep your combat skills on par with the fighter. Divine Favor scales with caster level.
Later, you get Magic vestment to boost your ac farther if you want it, or Divine power/righteous might to boost your attacks some more.
Of course, you always have bulls strength if you desire more damage.
The attractiveness of the cleric is that you can be the ac-focused fighter with a spell, or the two-handed fighter with another spell. And all the while, you maintain a powerful caster list which allows you many more abilities. It's a great class for adapting well to a variety of situations. You can be a buffer, and a dpser, and a tank, and a spellcaster all rolled into one.
And if you have time to stack up more than one spell, well, then you'll probably end up better off than all but the most min/maxed fighters :D Of course, you don't get the feats that a fighter does, but there has to be a tradeoff somewhere.
The druid makes a better dpser, but trades off on the buffs, and has an animal companion to track.
Well, I'll talk about the cleric then :)
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Sharing work is always a great thing to do ;-D
But a few quick notes about what you wrote: You seem to be thinking of the D&D 3.5 cleric and fighter. In pathfinder, a lot has changed. For example, clerics do not gain heavy armor proficiency. Many staple spells such as divine power have been greatly reduced in power, so the standard 3.5 D&D cleric power guides are mostly inaccurate now to say the least. And the fighter has been greatly powered up - I would much rather face a buffed cleric than a fighter in ranged or melee combat if I had to!
I would try to push use magic device as much as possible, including getting skill focus for it. This way you can - as you level up - at least get wands that can help compensate for your weak in-between-state (e.g. wand of fireball or such).You don't need UMD to use spell completion/activation items for spells on your list. Most spells he'd consider getting wands of are on either the wizard/sorceror or cleric list.
You're correct there :-) Still, it might be a worthwhile feat investment to do stuff others can't... But yeah, probably not necessary with the cleric/wizard spell lists :-)
Another quick note about clerics: The OP mentioned classes such as bard to also be OK. In my experience they are much better combat replacements now than clerics. There are basically 3 reasons for that:
1. They get the same buff spells the cleric does, and some more (greater invisibility etc.)
2. Arcane strike
3. Inspire courage (remember it's different from D&D 3.5!)
I have had a blast playing a bard from level 1 to 17 :-D
The druid makes a better dpser, but trades off on the buffs, and has an animal companion to track.
In the case of a MT I would advise to choose the domains instead of a companion - or am I mixing something up here and that's not a choice?
In the case of a MT I would advise to choose the domains instead of a companion - or am I mixing something up here and that's not a choice?
I think he was talking of going pure Druid instead of pure Cleric, not as an substitution for the MT.
I'm trying to come up with a somewhat final version of my MT right now, and I'd like to get your opinion on it, if you would be so kind. Just give my a few minutes to write everything down.
Edit:
Before I come to the Character, one more thing. You said
The spell lists of wizards and clerics are just too different for that, and the nice spells from those schools you would give up only rarely appear on the other list
However, I was not only talking about using the cleric spells instead of wizard spells. I was also talking about the Combined Spell ability of the MT, which allows me to cast spells I know with a different class. So if I give up Enchantment with my Wizard, I could still cast Charm Person as a 2nd level cleric spell without using 2 spell slots.
Not all spells will be worth the increased spell level (even though it even seems to increase the DC), but if I feel like I'm really going to need a spell, why not?Ok, here goes. All stats at level 20 WITHOUT equipment.
Elf Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Wizard 4
STR 8
DEX 16 (15 start, +1 at level 20)
CON 14
INT 24
WIS 18
CHA 8
Domains: Travel and either Luck or Liberation (Liberation is more likely)
Arcane School: Transmutation
Opposed School: Divination, Enchantment
Arcane Bond: Ring
I'll use the Transmutation Ability to increase Dex to 16 before I can put the point into it.
Feats:
1 Imporved Initiative
3 Toughness
4 Scribe Scrolls
5 Combat Casting (another feat I need becaus of my lacking caster level)
7 Spell Penetration
9 Greater Spell Penetration
11 Defensie Combat Training
13 Great Fortitude
15 Improved Great Fortitude
17 don't know. ... Shield Focus? ;D
19 see 17
The feats remain a problem. I'm not too fond of Meta Magic and would rather use Rods for it. I might get Extend or Quicken Spell, though, and maybe Silent Spell.
Spell Focus seems a bit silly for a character who wants to cast a great range of different spells and Augment Summoning might not be worth getting because I lack behind in spell levels, so my Summons will never be quite as good as they could be.
Well, any thought on that?
...
Before I come to the Character, one more thing. You said
The spell lists of wizards and clerics are just too different for that, and the nice spells from those schools you would give up only rarely appear on the other listHowever, I was not only talking about using the cleric spells instead of wizard spells. I was also talking about the Combined Spell ability of the MT, which allows me to cast spells I know with a different class. So if I give up Enchantment with my Wizard, I could still cast Charm Person as a 2nd level cleric spell without using 2 spell slots.
......
Still reading through your post, but I want to give you quick feedback on this: I am pretty sure this is not how it is supposed to work. I think the feature is meant to be interpreted that you can cast your wizard spells with cleric slots, but they would cost the same amount. So if you cast a 1st level wizard spell from one of your opposition schools, it would cost you 2 second level spell slots on the cleric list. Kind of suboptimal IMO :-/
In the case of a MT I would advise to choose the domains instead of a companion - or am I mixing something up here and that's not a choice?I think he was talking of going pure Druid instead of pure Cleric, not as an substitution for the MT.
I'm trying to come up with a somewhat final version of my MT right now, and I'd like to get your opinion on it, if you would be so kind. Just give my a few minutes to write everything down.
Edit:
Before I come to the Character, one more thing. You said
The spell lists of wizards and clerics are just too different for that, and the nice spells from those schools you would give up only rarely appear on the other listHowever, I was not only talking about using the cleric spells instead of wizard spells. I was also talking about the Combined Spell ability of the MT, which allows me to cast spells I know with a different class. So if I give up Enchantment with my Wizard, I could still cast Charm Person as a 2nd level cleric spell without using 2 spell slots.
Not all spells will be worth the increased spell level (even though it even seems to increase the DC), but if I feel like I'm really going to need a spell, why not?Ok, here goes. All stats at level 20 WITHOUT equipment.
Elf Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Wizard 4
STR 8
DEX 16 (15 start, +1 at level 20)
CON 14
INT 24
WIS 18
CHA 8Domains: Travel and either Luck or Liberation (Liberation is more likely)
Arcane School: Transmutation
Opposed School: Divination, Enchantment
Arcane Bond: RingI'll use the Transmutation Ability to increase Dex to 16 before I can put the point into it.
Feats:
1 Imporved Initiative
3 Toughness
4 Scribe Scrolls
5 Combat Casting (another feat I need becaus of my lacking caster level)
7 Spell Penetration
9 Greater Spell Penetration
11 Defensie Combat Training
13 Great Fortitude
15 Improved Great Fortitude
17 don't know. ... Shield Focus? ;D
19 see 17The feats remain a problem. I'm not too fond of...
Your creation looks good :-) Some notes:
- Your transmutation bonus will be worthless at later levels since it overlaps with almost every spell and magic item. Just keep that in mind :-)
- It's good you shore up your fortitude save! You might want to consider to take the great fortitude feat earlier, e.g. at level 7.
- Eschew materials and combat expertise might be great feats for you, as well as dodge and mobility.
- Spell focus is great to prevent others from making their saves, And augment summoning should make your summons good enough and provide you with enough flexibility, e.g. if you don't have the right spells memorized, you can use your prepared summon spell to solve the task at hand.
- still spell might be a live saver. For silent spell situations you can get a rod and use it, but if you're grappled or bound or sth. you might really want to be able to cast that lifesaving spells without somatic components :-P Oh, and get at least one rod of silent spells!
You should do well enough with this one :-)
I think the feature is meant to be interpreted that you can cast your wizard spells with cleric slots, but they would cost the same amount. So if you cast a 1st level wizard spell from one of your opposition schools, it would cost you 2 second level spell slots on the cleric list. Kind of suboptimal IMO :-/
Well, the ability states that the spell uses the rules of the class that's used to cast it. And since Clerics don't have opposing schools... But anyway, not picking a school would reduce my number of spells which I would never do. No, not even on a MT. I'll just ask my GM how he wants to handle it. As I said already, giving up 2 school doesn't bother me too much.
Your transmutation bonus will be worthless at later levels since it overlaps with almost every spell and magic item. Just keep that in mind :-)
I know. That's why I want to use it on a secondary stat like Dex. I know Dex is great to have, but it will be a long time before I get a dex-raising item. Intelligence and Constitution are more important.
It's good you shore up your fortitude save! You might want to consider to take the great fortitude feat earlier, e.g. at level 7.
The order is not set in stone and I might switch around a few feats. Having a few cleric levels already increases my Fort save above a normal wizard. I'll see how that works out.
Eschew materials and combat expertise might be great feats for you, as well as dodge and mobility.
I'm not too concerned about material components. There are always spells that don't require them and half of my spells use a Divine Focus - which is not eschewed by the feat - anyway.
Combat Expertise only works when you make melee attacks and with low BAB progression, the bonus won't be all that impressive. Simply fighting devensively or taking a full-defense action if anything comes too close is probably better than wasting a feat.I might consider Dodge, but I don't think Mobility is useful. I will only provoke AoOs when I try to get away from an enemy and most of the time using the withdraw action or relying on already cast defensive spells like mirror image should do the trick.
Spell focus is great to prevent others from making their saves, And augment summoning should make your summons good enough and provide you with enough flexibility, e.g. if you don't have the right spells memorized, you can use your prepared summon spell to solve the task at hand.
I'm a MT. I don't think I'll have to worry about flexability :D
But yeah, summons ARE great, especially since I can cast SM I-VII from my cleric list since they don't require a save. I'd normally not go for Augment Summoning on a Cleric because the required SF (Conjuraion) is all but useless to a cleric. A Wizard on the other hand can make some good use of it. Hm... Another thing to consider.still spell might be a live saver. For silent spell situations you can get a rod and use it, but if you're grappled or bound or sth. you might really want to be able to cast that lifesaving spells without somatic components :-P Oh, and get at least one rod of silent spells!
Well, there are already spells without somatic components like Dimension Door (which I even get as domain spell). I'm not sure if I want to spend a feat and prepare a spell at +1 spell level all the time "just in case".
Thanks again for your input! :)
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As it was probably mentioned earlier, and I am sure Sangalor is giving you some excellent advice, as someone who often plays Mystic theurges, They excel in some areas and not others.
They excel at “buffing”. I have also found they can do a pretty good job at summoning “speed bumps”s as well. There are all sorts of nifty combos you can come up with.
Prayer, Slow, Haste, Bless, Curse, works great for shifting the odds to your parties favor.
I found my character stocking up on the utility spells other dedicated casters didn’t. spells like invisibility purges daylight etc.
The fun you can have with Spectral hand. You can channel cure spells with it.
Do not take conjuration and transmutation as your opposition schools if you specialize. I did and I regretted it.
Well I guess that is everything I can think of. Good luck
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The biggest hit to the old cleric builds was spell duration. Many of those always-up buffs can no longer be always up. But don't let that fool you into thinking that the cleric isn't still a valuable class.
Let's do some comparisons between a level 10 fighter and a level 10 cleric.
AC: The level 10 fighter will definitely have fullplate. Armor training increases the maximum dex bonus by two. His ac before magical enhancement will then be: 10+ (9 fullplate) + (possibly 3 dex) + (possibly 2 shield. This gives him an ac from 19 to 24 before magical items.
The cleric will probably be wearing a breastplate, giving him an ac of 10+ (6 breastplate) +(possibly 3 dex) + (possibly 2 shield)
This gives him an ac from 16 to 21 before magical items.
Now, with a single spell (shield of faith), the cleric can boost his ac to that of the fighters.
Shield of faith from a 10th level cleric grants +2 deflection bonus to ac with an additional +1 for every six levels you have with a max of +5. Total of +3 deflection to ac.
That puts the cleric's ac exactly equal to the fighters. And the cleric can add magic vestment to that if needed.
AB: The level 10 fighter will probably have an ab of 10 (level) + 2 (weapon training) +1 (weapon focus) +1 (greater weapon focus) +6 (strength modifier) for a total of +20 before magical bonuses
The cleric will only have an ab of 7 (level) +1 (possibly weapon focus) +3 (possibly strength modifier). This part is kind of iffy since there are many ways to build the cleric. So anywhere from +7 to +11 or more. That's a lot less than the fighter. But the cleric has options here too.
Divine favor (+3 luck to hit/damage) , Divine power (+3 luck to hit/damage, extra attack, 10 temp. hit points) , greater magic weapon (+2 enhancement), bulls strength (+2 hit), righteous might (+1 size to hit after strength bonus and size penalty, bunch to damage).
Stacking the stackable, you've got a potential cap of +19 to hit with an extra attack. Arguably, divine power does a good job of closing the gap by itself. An additional attack helps to put the cleric ahead attack-wise. Of course, there's also bless and bane for an effective additional +2 to hit, but that's two more spell castings and probably not worth it most of the time.
With careful domain selection, the cleric can get extra goodies as well.
With a rod of quicken, the cleric can become fighter-esque with a quickened spell, and then fire off a flame strike for 10d6 damage to all enemies in a 10 foot radius of the target point. Next round, he can fire off another quickened spell and move in to bash heads. Or he could have just taken quicken spell at this point, using his 5th level slots to cast quickened 1st level buffs.
Meanwhile, the cleric will be hunting for many of the same items that the fighter is equipping himself with, so magic items are kind of a push that way.
Is the cleric as powerful in comparison to the fighter as the old version? No. Too many spell duration hits.
But the cleric is easily able to stand in for the fighter, using a single spell to match the tankage of a tank, a spell or two to match the beatings of a dps'er, while retaining powerful cleric spells which greatly increase his ability to survive. It's nice being able to fire off cure spells on yourself, or to continue buffing yourself so that each round you fight you become more deadly.
Personally, I'd rather face a fighter than a cleric. I can guess the general tactics a fighter might use (arrows, or move in/melee or move in/grapple) and find a way to counter them. *wind wall, hold person, invisibility, traps, ect*
Versus a cleric, I might be facing summoned creatures at the same time, or a cleric with freedom of movement to prevent control effects, or stone shape, or any number of other abilities that I would have difficulty countering. Including true seeing, invisibility *with the right domain*, detect traps, and a billion more.
A fully buffed cleric can have a LOT of buffs on him, and most of his attack boosting buffs also boost damage, so flat out he could give the fighter a run for his money even without casting an offensive spell.