Seriously guys, Liliths got a point about charisma having a big effect on Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Bluffing. Arguing with that is only as valid as arguing that Acrobatics isn't affected by Dexterity.
What the problem I'm seeing here is the belief that pacts and bonds can't last without Diplomacy, Intimidation, and Bluffing. If you must lie, invoke fear, and bribe to keep a relationship going, it's probably already going sour. Influencing people to do things for you is not the same thing as them actually believing and maintaining trust in you.
When I say strong relationship, I mean in a stable relationship where, even if problems arise, the relationship can still be maintained. That's formed by honesty and experience, not by manipulation. Only the foolish (those lacking wisdom and the ability to sense motives) would follow someone who is manipulating them so.
What is more likely of a very charismatic person? a) having many short relationships or b) having few but long lasting relationships
Now which is more likely of a witch?
Mechanically speaking, what first level character has the ability to manipulate an outsider with their words anyway? Clearly, the outsider has other reasons that don't involve the witch constantly manipulating it to be her conduit.
Seriously, couples don't need to be charismatic to remain faithful, and being charismatic doesn't help them be faithful. Sure, being charismatic may help start a relationship, but it doesn't insure one being faithful and maintaining the relationship. Of the player races, the one with the most charisma (Gnome) is not the one most likely to maintain a pact, while the one with the least charisma (Dwarf) is.
tl,dr: Charisma affects Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Bluff; Charisma and those skills don't dictate a strong relationship/bond/pact
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Pact making is influenced by both Int and Cha, and even Wis.
Careful, that level of nuance may cause this thread to implode.
I've got a contract that says otherwise.
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shifting social skills to Int (example: the Witch),Can you explain how the Witch shifts social skills to Intelligence?My issue with the witch is that the witch gains her powers by being a consort to an extraplanar entity of some sort (her patron).
What's a consort? A companion, associate, or partner.
A Witch is a character who develops a strong social connection to a powerful extraplanar being and, in returrn, is empowered by that being. The stronger a social connection the Witch has with that being, the more that being empowers the witch.
So, central to the witch is her ability to cultivate a strong social relationship with that being.
Now, which attribute measures a character's ability to develop strong social relationships? In the case of the witch, it's intelligence.
I'm sorry, but from where did you get the word 'consort'? All the description says is that the Witch has made a pact with an otherworldy power. It doesn't say anything about how this pact was made, who approached who, or why the pact was made. It doesn't even say that the witch is aware of her patron. You implying that all witches have a social connection with their benefactor is absurd.
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The amount of Charisma required to enact a contract, pact, enter negotiations, take Diplomacy skill ranks, etc. is 1 point. At this level, the holder of this 1 point of Charisma is self-aware, but that's it.
Are there any PCs, NPCs, or monsters capable of taking class levels without at least CHA 1? If not, then the assertion that Charisma is necessary to become a witch is true, but also moot, since a being without Charisma can't become a fighter or anything else, either. Thus, if CHA 1 is required to take any class levels, then the statement that Charisma is required to become a witch carries no impact and is meaningless.
From the d20pfsrd:
"Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance. It is the most important ability for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to channel energy. For undead creatures, Charisma is a measure of their unnatural “lifeforce.” Every creature has a Charisma score. A character with a Charisma score of 0 is not able to exert himself in any way and is unconscious."
From this statement, we can see that a CHA 0 character can initiate no actions. If no actions can be initiated, then a theoretical character (who must not be a creature) with a permanent CHA 0 or CHA - can make no decision to take a class or a skill. Therefore, a minimum CHA of 1 is necessary to take any class, witch included. Therefore, the statement that Charisma is required to become a witch is moot and of no importance.
That's logic.
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If charisma is what is truly needed to have a contract then several people at my job should be fired for lack of it (employment is a contract). However, they seem to know what they are doing, and as a result keep their jobs even though nobody likes dealing with them.They've convinced people that they know what they are doing - which is not the same thing as knowing what they are doing.
I can't tell what point you're arguing any longer.
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The amount of Charisma required to enact a contract, pact, enter negotiations, take Diplomacy skill ranks, etc. is 1 point. At this level, the holder of this 1 point of Charisma is self-aware, but that's it.
What you need for a contract is two willing parties. Or one willing party and another who can't afford to say no. There doesn't have to be a shred of diplomacy or charisma between the two of them.
Otherwise, prove me wrong by pointing to the text where it says that 1 pt of diplomacy is needed to make or enter a contract.
Both my and your statements are correct. I'm not saying you need Diplomacy 1 to enter a contract, but Charisma 1. A character with Charisma 0 is neither willing nor capable of saying yes, no, or having a concept of "afford."
So, no, you don't need Diplomacy skill to enter a contract; just enough presence of mind to be either willing, or unable to afford to say no. That's represented by Charisma 1.
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Diplomacy is an untrained skill, which means it can be done without a skill point being invested. Your counter argument doesn't hold water.The amount of Charisma required to enact a contract, pact, enter negotiations, take Diplomacy skill ranks, etc. is 1 point. At this level, the holder of this 1 point of Charisma is self-aware, but that's it.
What you need for a contract is two willing parties. Or one willing party and another who can't afford to say no. There doesn't have to be a shred of diplomacy or charisma between the two of them.
Otherwise, prove me wrong by pointing to the text where it says that 1 pt of diplomacy is needed to make or enter a contract.
Don't worry, LT, we're all still on the same page. We all agree that to be able to enter a pact, all that is necessary is that we must either be a willing party, or recognize that we're over a barrel. Charisma 1 is what it takes. At Charisma 0, decisions are impossible. No Diplomacy skill ranks are necessary.
All three of us are in agreement. LazarX's counter argument does hold water, but it's not really a counter argument because it was against something I didn't say.
LT is still crazy. Charisma is not required to take ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, and INtimidate.You're still wrong. Something without charisma, cannot take Diplomacy, Bluff, or Intimidate. That's because Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate only modify the bonus set by charisma.
Nope, wrong again.
Something without charisma certainly could take the skills. Just because you don't have a stat doesn't mean you can't take the skill. It just means you aren't very good at it.
Even before PF, undead had concentration modifiers. Guess what? No Con at all, so no Con modifier. They actually had to insert the Con to Cha rule to make it apply, and then just dumped it entirely. It existed throughout all 3.5.
Find me ONE PLACE in the rules that says you can't take a skill if you don't have the stat based on the skill. It may be USELESS to you (incorps taking Climb), but there's NOTHING that says you can't take it. I think the only requirement to taking a skill is that you must have an Intelligence score of at least 1...and oozes and mindless undead might trump even that.
==Aelryinth
So all those undead with concentration scores in 3.5 don't have them? good to know when fighting a lich there.
Eesh.
==Aelryinth
Pact making is influenced by both Int and Cha, and even Wis.But it is simplified to Cha in the context of the Diplomacy skill and to another attribute in the context of the Witch class. This inconsistency has caused confusion as to what exactly charisma is - evidenced, in this thread, by such claims as people with high charisma are all jerks (though, I'm not sure if the poster who posted that is a troll or not).
Oh, he's not. It's just an truth in the rules that leads to a plausible conclusion that I find disturbing for people who claim that others only want to be around characters who have high charisma. By RAW, high charisma characters are simply much more likely to snub or unreasonably demand things from you than low-cha characters.
But of course, LT, your charisma is impeccably high. :D
Diplomacy (Cha)
You can use this skill to persuade others to agree with your arguments, to resolve differences, and to gather valuable information or rumors from people. This skill is also used to negotiate conflicts by using the proper etiquette and manners suitable to the problem.
Check
You can change the initial attitudes of nonplayer characters with a successful check. The DC of this check depends on the creature’s starting attitude toward you, adjusted by its Charisma modifier.
I won't insult your intelligence by copy-pasting the 'Make Request' portion, but when making a request through Diplomacy, it's very telling that a low charisma character is more intrinsically inclined to assist you than a high-charisma character.
In short, a low-cha character is more likely to help you when you need help but that help involves going out of the character's way.
Ergo, low-cha = 'nicer,' as a general rule. Inversely (And you know it's true because I used a three-syllable word like 'inversely') a high-cha character is less likely to go out of their way to assist a person asking them for help. As a result, they are generally less nice and ergo less friendly than low-cha characters.
In conclusion, sorcerers are freaking jerks.
Any creature with an ability score of '-' treats it as 10 for the purpose of determining the modifier.
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Any creature with an ability score of '-' treats it as 10 for the purpose of determining the modifier.
Where is that rule stated in RAW?
This is specifically stated as applying for Constructs, which have a CON score of "-", however it does not apply to Undead. [Bestiary p.307]
Undead creatures have a Con score of "-", and they use their Cha score to calculate hit points, Fortitude saves, or any special ability that normally relies on Con.
Oozes, Vermin, some Plants, and some Undead are mindless, and have an Int score of "-". They are immune to all mind-affecting effects (including charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms), and they gain no skill points or feats (although they may have a racial modifier to a skill).
Also, creatures with the Incorporeal subtype have a Str score of "-", and cannot physically affect the outside world (although some have abilities such as telekinesis).
I'm actually curious what happens when an incorporeal creature picks up and wields a weapon or armor with the Ghost Touch quality? How much damage do they do when they swing a Ghost Touch Longsword? How encumbering is a suit of Ghost Touch full plate to a ghost with no Str score?
Dang. I was certain that was a rule somewhere.
Incorporeal undead are treated as having str 10 for modifiers (such as with the ghost-touch weapons or for CMB/CMD) but apparently that's not stated anywhere.
Regardless of how high your charisma is, the DC to get a hostile creature to do something dangerous to himself to aid you is 20 points higher than if the character is already indifferent to you. That's significant and not at all easily eliminated through high charisma.Diplomacy (Cha)
You can use this skill to persuade others to agree with your arguments, to resolve differences, and to gather valuable information or rumors from people. This skill is also used to negotiate conflicts by using the proper etiquette and manners suitable to the problem.
Check
You can change the initial attitudes of nonplayer characters with a successful check. The DC of this check depends on the creature’s starting attitude toward you, adjusted by its Charisma modifier.I won't insult your intelligence by copy-pasting the 'Make Request' portion, but when making a request through Diplomacy, it's very telling that a low charisma character is more intrinsically inclined to assist you than a high-charisma character.
In short, a low-cha character is more likely to help you when you need help but that help involves going out of the character's way.
Ergo, low-cha = 'nicer,' as a general rule. Inversely (And you know it's true because I used a three-syllable word like 'inversely') a high-cha character is less likely to go out of their way to assist a person asking them for help. As a result, they are generally less nice and ergo less friendly than low-cha characters.
In conclusion, sorcerers are freaking jerks.
You're right, but what does that have to do with anything?
If there are two indifferent characters, the one with low cha is more predisposed towards helping you. thus, high cha means less likely to pitch in to help others means less nice. A hostile low-cha versus a indifferent high-cha is going to be easy, but then you're testing a panda versus a tiger. You need to test two pandas. Or two tigers.
Why is the one with low cha more predisposed towards helping you? You just sort of assume, a priori, that that's the case as if the character with high cha isn't concerned about the 20 point difference I just mentioned. You presume that the high cha character has no intrest in gaining the most benefit from his high cha and just wants to do the least necessary to put him on the same level as the low cha character. And you give no justification for your presumption.You're right, but what does that have to do with anything?
If there are two indifferent characters, the one with low cha is more predisposed towards helping you. thus, high cha means less likely to pitch in to help others means less nice. A hostile low-cha versus a indifferent high-cha is going to be easy, but then you're testing a panda versus a tiger. You need to test two pandas. Or two tigers.
Did you really not read, or are you just having trouble understanding him? He's basically saying instead of comparing a hostile creature to an indifferent character, compare two hostile characters or two indifferent characters. Doing otherwise is a strawman fallacy. Diplomacy checks state that DC to use Diplomacy to influence a characters actions is a DC determined by their Charisma.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Point of fact: A high Cha character who is indifferent to you has a higher Diplomacy DC than a low Cha character who is indifferent to you. Thus, high Cha characters are less likely to aid others.
So, since the witch has to agree to sign the pact... doesn't that mean that LOW charisma makes more sense, the outside will find it easier to ger her to sign? ;-)
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One mistake I see here is that everyone is assuming that you're actually making a variable deal with this being. It seems to me that this is some being beyond your knowledge and you have no idea as to what it is. Perhaps, all witches get the same or similar amount of power and it is up to them to find how to put it to use. Intelligence then being for figuring out how to harness a relatively unlimited amount of power for your use.
He's talking about the high cha character being a jerk (thus, making characters hostile) and the low cha character not.
And now you're implying more things. Being a jerk does not make one hostile, or even unfriendly. Someone could like you and still be a jerk. Getting what you want out of a deal from a person with a high charisma is harder than from someone with a low charisma. Why? Well think about it, they have a high charisma, they're used to getting what they want and they are also imposing their own charisma against your diplomacy.
Being a jerk makes characters hostile towards the jerk. That's what I said.And now you're implying more things. Being a jerk does not make one hostile, or even unfriendly. Someone could like you and still be a jerk. Getting what you want out of a deal from a person with a high charisma is harder than from someone with a low charisma. Why? Well think about it, they have a high charisma, they're used to getting what they want and they are also imposing their own charisma against your diplomacy.
He's talking about the high cha character being a jerk (thus, making characters hostile) and the low cha character not.
Actually, what I was saying was that if the same guy is asking two indifferent npcs for help, 100% of the time the one with the lower charisma is more likely to help.
If this point does not ring 100% true at this point, I will have to get a friend to explain it to you. He am much more eloquent.
Care to pontificate, ambassador?
And yet, if both characters are indifferent, the character with the lower charisma is more likely to help. Do you dispute this fact?
Allow me to paint a scenario then, here.
Your car has a flat tire. Being an average joe with a +0 charisma, you ask fortune for help. Since they are indifferent, as you are just some guy on the street they met just now, the dc would have a base of 10 to get help. Not being under pressure, you take 10. A character with -2 or +0 cha, someone with a 7-11 cha, will go out of their way to help you change that tire.
A sorcerer with a +4 charisma will decline. If you've ever been in a car with a flat tire needing help and someone told you no, I think we can agree that you would not be thinking that person was anything short of a jerk.
This is, then, proof that high charisma makes you a jerk. If that if not a relevant proof of concept, then I submit to the court that your methods of judgment are faulty, and ready an action to rage.