Since Rending Fury allows a creature to rend with half the attacks normally needed, would an eidolon with the rend evolution be able to rend as a standard action, dealing 2[W]+ 2.5 x STR Bonus?
Yes, since the eidolon's rend states "every time", has no limiting clause and trumps general rules with specific. Not only standard actions, they get to rend on every single claw attack during a full attack action and even every AoOs.
Since Rending Fury allows a creature to rend with half the attacks normally needed, would an eidolon with the rend evolution be able to rend as a standard action, dealing 2[W]+ 2.5 x STR Bonus?Yes, since the eidolon's rend states "every time", has no limiting clause and trumps general rules with specific. Not only standard actions, they get to rend on every single claw attack during a full attack action and even every AoOs.
I would really love this to be true...
But doesn't the feats description trump this?
"You deal rend damage if you hit with half the
normal natural attacks your rend requires. For example, a
troll that has this feat can rend when it hits with one claw
attack, while a girallon that has this feat must hit one target
with two claw attacks to rend. You can only make this rend
attack once per round."
"You deal rend damage if you hit with half the
normal natural attacks your rend requires. For example, a
troll that has this feat can rend when it hits with one claw
attack, while a girallon that has this feat must hit one target
with two claw attacks to rend. You can only make this rend
attack once per round."
Got a link for that?
Got a link for that?
"You deal rend damage if you hit with half the
normal natural attacks your rend requires. For example, a
troll that has this feat can rend when it hits with one claw
attack, while a girallon that has this feat must hit one target
with two claw attacks to rend. You can only make this rend
attack once per round."
No, since UC isn't up on d20pfsrd yet.
This was a direct copy and paste from my PDF copy of Ultimate Combat.
I took a look at Ultimate Combat. The way I read that is that you only get the discounted rend once per combat. So if you have 3 claws and hit with all 3 you get the discounted rend, and then the extra rend after the other two claws hit.
It is so unlikely that you will hit with all attacks that I don't see much trouble in allowing the extra rend.
But doesn't the feats description trump this?
"You deal rend damage if you hit with half the
normal natural attacks your rend requires. For example, a
troll that has this feat can rend when it hits with one claw
attack, while a girallon that has this feat must hit one target
with two claw attacks to rend. You can only make this rend
attack once per round."
No idea how I missed that last sentence, hah.
I took a look at Ultimate Combat. The way I read that is that you only get the discounted rend once per combat. So if you have 3 claws and hit with all 3 you get the discounted rend, and then the extra rend after the other two claws hit.
It is so unlikely that you will hit with all attacks that I don't see much trouble in allowing the extra rend.
Page 303 of the Bestiary list the details for the Rend special attack, as well as here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules #TOC-Rend-Ex-
Rend can only be used once per round period. I believe that last sentance in the description of Rending Fury is a reminder that, though it is easier, you still only get to Rend once per round, they aren't two seperate rend attacks. Rending Fury just makes it easier. So yes, if any creature that would normally need 2+ attack to hit takes rending fury, and single attack in a round can rend. Rend is not based on increment number of hits, but is a once per round ability that can be activated if you hit with X number attacks.
All I am saying is that the Eidolon goes against so many standards and rules that have been "Written down" that I tend to take things for face value.
For instance, the Eidolon is a summoned creature that does not benefit from augment summoning.
It is not stated whether the Eidolon levels as a player or as a summoned creature. Full hit die at each level, and rolling as levels progress vs, just take half all the time.
Most things in Pathfinder heal naturally over time, the Eidolon doesn't, technically the eidolon can't even heal ability damage until the Summoner hits level 4 to take Lesser Restoration Eidolon.
The rend ability of the Eidolon is written differently than the rend ability as stated in the bestiary, emphasizing no limit on the number of rends.
If the Eidolon gains multiple heads and bite attacks, can the trip attempt from the trip evolution only be applied once per round despite the evolution saying that you get a free trip attack with every successful bite attack?
Other two point evolutions apply to every attack, such as energy attacks, does this energy attack get counted in with the rend ability, since you are technically doing damage with a claw? What about the rake, is the energy attack damage applied there?
And the way render's fury reads, I would say that it only applies to the first rend, specifically because it says "This feat can only be used once per round." As the feat reduces the trigger number of claw attacks for a rend, it makes sense.
No idea how I missed that last sentence, hah.But doesn't the feats description trump this?
"You deal rend damage if you hit with half the
normal natural attacks your rend requires. For example, a
troll that has this feat can rend when it hits with one claw
attack, while a girallon that has this feat must hit one target
with two claw attacks to rend. You can only make this rend
attack once per round."
I would agree, if the bold text read:
You may only make a/one rend attack per round. But the use of the word "this", tells me that it is specific to the discounted rend.
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I took a look at Ultimate Combat. The way I read that is that you only get the discounted rend once per combat. So if you have 3 claws and hit with all 3 you get the discounted rend, and then the extra rend after the other two claws hit.
It is so unlikely that you will hit with all attacks that I don't see much trouble in allowing the extra rend.
Page 303 of the Bestiary list the details for the Rend special attack, as well as here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules #TOC-Rend-Ex-
Rend can only be used once per round period. I believe that last sentance in the description of Rending Fury is a reminder that, though it is easier, you still only get to Rend once per round, they aren't two seperate rend attacks. Rending Fury just makes it easier. So yes, if any creature that would normally need 2+ attack to hit takes rending fury, and single attack in a round can rend. Rend is not based on increment number of hits, but is a once per round ability that can be activated if you hit with X number attacks.
All I am saying is that the Eidolon goes against so many standards and rules that have been "Written down" that I tend to take things for face value.
For instance, the Eidolon is a summoned creature that does not benefit from augment summoning.
isnt it called, not summoned?
isnt it called, not summoned?
"Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score."
It is considered and treated as a summoned monster. Although most summoned monsters don't disappear when the summoner is dead or unconscious, the eidolon does. Most summoned creatures pop when they hit zero hp as well.
The rend ability of the Eidolon is written differently than the rend ability as stated in the bestiary, emphasizing no limit on the number of rends.
I totally disagree with this, and without this interpretation, there's no issue with Rending Fury.
An eidolon learns to rip and tear the flesh of those it attacks with its claws, gaining the rend ability. Whenever the eidolon makes two successful claw attacks against the same target in 1 round, its claws latch onto the flesh and deal extra damage. This damage is equal to the damage dealt by one claw attack plus 1-1/2 times the eidolon’s Strength modifier. The eidolon must possess the claws evolution to select this evolution. The summoner must be at least 6th level before selecting this evolution.
If it hits with two or more natural attacks in 1 round, a creature with the rend special attack can cause tremendous damage by latching onto the opponent’s body and tearing flesh. This attack deals an additional amount of damage, but no more than once per round. The type of attacks that must hit and the additional damage are included in the creature’s description. The additional damage is usually equal to the damage caused by one of the attacks plus 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus.
Nothing in the Eidolon's version of Rend specifies that it can be used more than once per round. There is no FAQ or Errata or (as far as I know) even a developer post to indicate that that was the intent. At best, you can claim that "whenever" can trigger multiple times (i.e. each time two successful claw attacks were made), but that has a number of issues, and it's just as valid to read it as referring to the whole turn (i.e. every time there were two successful claw attacks in the turn). With the multiple-trigger reading, there's nothing to say that the same claw can't count multiple times ("One claw hit. A second claw hit. I rend. A third claw hit - since three are more than two, that means two claws hit, so I rend. A fourth claw hit... likewise, I rend again"), but there's also nothing to say that only each pair of attacks counts. Furthermore, yet another perfectly valid reading is that "Whenever the eidolon makes two successful claw attacks" means "Only when the eidolon made two successful claw attacks." i.e. Not three, or five, or 20. You can choose to rend immediately after the second claw hits, and that's it - the third and all future claws don't get rend because you've no longer only hit twice.
So of three possible interpretations of "Whenever", two limit you to making a single rend per round as per the standard usage, and the third allows multiple rends, but is entirely unclear as to whether you get one rend for each hit beyond the first, or one rend for every other hit.
Given those choices, I think the only reasonable conclusion is that you can only rend once per round. There's certainly no evidence for "emphasizing" a lack of a limit.
I believe the feat grants one discounted rend per series of attacks and the rest are rewarded normally. The use of the word "this" in the feat description makes it clear they are refering to the discounted rend only.
I agree, except that there is no way to get more than one rend. If there were, and the feat was worded the same way, then that would clearly be the intent. However, since there's no way to get more than one rend without specifically having an ability which states you get one, in which case that specificity would probably override anything this feat would provide.
Rend (for Eidolons) wrote:
An eidolon learns to rip and tear the flesh of those it attacks with its claws, gaining the rend ability. Whenever the eidolon makes two successful claw attacks against the same target in 1 round, its claws latch onto the flesh and deal extra damage. This damage is equal to the damage dealt by one claw attack plus 1-1/2 times the eidolon’s Strength modifier. The eidolon must possess the claws evolution to select this evolution. The summoner must be at least 6th level before selecting this evolution.
Correct, the text says whenever the Eidolon makes 2 successful claw attacks against the same target in one round. Not 2 or more. This tells me that the counter resets as soon as the rend goes off. The fact that they describe what the rend does, within the ability is what tells me that it is different from a normal bestiary rend.
The eidolon doesn't follow any of the normal rules that most monsters abide by, why should it start now?
If I were to make a multi-headed hydra like eidolon, and give it trip, it would get a free trip attack with each of its bite attacks, not just the first. Why should rend be different?
Rend (for Eidolons) wrote:
An eidolon learns to rip and tear the flesh of those it attacks with its claws, gaining the rend ability. Whenever the eidolon makes two successful claw attacks against the same target in 1 round, its claws latch onto the flesh and deal extra damage. This damage is equal to the damage dealt by one claw attack plus 1-1/2 times the eidolon’s Strength modifier. The eidolon must possess the claws evolution to select this evolution. The summoner must be at least 6th level before selecting this evolution.
Correct, the text says whenever the Eidolon makes 2 successful claw attacks against the same target in one round. Not 2 or more. This tells me that the counter resets as soon as the rend goes off. The fact that they describe what the rend does, within the ability is what tells me that it is different from a normal bestiary rend.
The eidolon doesn't follow any of the normal rules that most monsters abide by, why should it start now?
If I were to make a multi-headed hydra like eidolon, and give it trip, it would get a free trip attack with each of its bite attacks, not just the first. Why should rend be different?
Based on the reading, i don't see it allowing extra rending myself. Just that the rend can trigger off a single hit. To deal it otherwise would be a silly power bump on damage that doesn't need to be there. It would be useful vs higher ac targets and when you have to move and can't full attack. Still useful.
Correct, the text says whenever the Eidolon makes 2 successful claw attacks against the same target in one round. Not 2 or more. This tells me that the counter resets as soon as the rend goes off. The fact that they describe what the rend does, within the ability is what tells me that it is different from a normal bestiary rend.
Show me any text that supports the bolded statement. Nothing says the counter would reset. As I said above, I interpret it to say that the second attack that hits does bonus rend damage. You can't hit four times, and apply the rend damage to the first attack, or the fourth. It has to be the second, or you lose it.
The eidolon doesn't follow any of the normal rules that most monsters abide by, why should it start now?
Every rule it breaks, it specifically calls out as being different. All the ways it doesn't behave like a summoned monster, for instance. In this case, it specifically says "gaining the rend ability," which means that it uses all the rules for rend unless specified otherwise. The reason they're spelled out here is because A) The rend ability itself does not say what you need to hit with to trigger a rend (each instance of it is different), and B) ease of reference, the same way it specifies what the trip ability does.
If I were to make a multi-headed hydra like eidolon, and give it trip, it would get a free trip attack with each of its bite attacks, not just the first. Why should rend be different?
The same reason it's different for every other creature: because the grab and trip special abilities are attached to a specific attack, and rend is an ability of the creature. If I miss with my grabbing attack, I don't grab. If I miss with my tripping attack, I don't trip. If I have five grabbing attacks, I have five chances to grab, but they don't depend on each other. Rend, on the other hand is an ability which says "Under these circumstances, I get bonus damage", the same way pounce and rake are both "under these circumstances, I get extra attacks". Also, if I successfully trip or grab a creature, I can't trip them again or grab them again. So those abilities become useless on subsequent attacks. Rend, if you allow it to repeat, just keeps stacking with itself, which makes it far more powerful.
I see that we differ on this opinion, and that neither of us will change each other's mind. But, now I am curious about another issue.
If you do manage to land a rend attack, do you get the elemental damage that you are supposed to get with all natural attacks assuming that you have taken energy attacks or will the rend be treated like a natural claw attack that isn't really a natural attack because it doesn't receive the elemental damage from energy attacks.
Just read another post where it was claimed that a rend attack was an attack in and of itself, that said does it count against the number of natural attacks that the eidolon receives?
I am guessing and hoping not, but I've been wrong before.
Just read another post where it was claimed that a rend attack was an attack in and of itself, that said does it count against the number of natural attacks that the eidolon receives?
I am guessing and hoping not, but I've been wrong before.
On this one, i am going to say that no, it does not count against the total.
Just read another post where it was claimed that a rend attack was an attack in and of itself, that said does it count against the number of natural attacks that the eidolon receives?
I am guessing and hoping not, but I've been wrong before.
Rend is not an attack in and of itself. James Jacobs made that point here, although, as always his posts are not official unless they get incorporated into errata or the FAQ.. In addition, compare the Rend evolution to the Rake evolution. The latter specifically says it counts as an attack, and the former doesn't.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Okie dokie. Let's compare the rend attack to the rake attack.
Rake (Ex)
An eidolon grows dangerous claws on its feet, allowing it to make 2 rake attacks on foes it is grappling. These attacks are primary attacks. The eidolon receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target. These rake attacks deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). This evolution is only available to eidolons of the quadruped base form. This evolution counts as one natural attack toward the eidolon’s maximum. The summoner must be at least 4th level before selecting this evolution. Source: Advanced Player's Guide
Rake = 2 point evolution, pre-requisite limbs evolution. Total cost 2 for rake, 2 for limbs (legs). Damage 1d4 + str assuming medium creature. Counts as 1 natural attack, but you get 2 attacks if you do rake someone. So at level 4 you could pounce on someone and technically squeeze out 5 attacks. Because you may use your rake attacks as attacks during a pounce, and the two rake attacks apparently count as 1 natural attack. Under grapple conditions this attack is dependent upon being grappled. Energy attacks activate (if selected) on application of each rake attack. Selectable at level 4. Specifically tells the player 2 attacks.
Rend (Ex)
An eidolon learns to rip and tear the flesh of those it attacks with its claws, gaining the rend ability. Whenever the eidolon makes two successful claw attacks against the same target in 1 round, its claws latch onto the flesh and deal extra damage. This damage is equal to the damage dealt by one claw attack plus 1-1/2 times the eidolon’s Strength modifier. The eidolon must possess the claws evolution to select this evolution. The summoner must be at least 6th level before selecting this evolution. Source: Advanced Player's Guide
Rend = 2 point evolution, pre-requisite limbs evolution and claws evolution. Total cost 2 Limbs (arms/legs), 1 claws, 2 rend = 5 total. It doesn't appear to count as a natural attack or even as an attack at all. Selectable at level 6. This attack doesn't trigger unless you are successful with 2 attacks on the same target. Energy attacks do not activate on each rend attack because a rend attack is not considered to be an attack in and of itself. Tells the condition to get a rend is 2 attacks in one round, but doesn't specify a limit to the number of rends.
On the surface it seems like rake is far more useful, damage dealing, and cost efficient than Rend. The lack of a better wording on rend as opposed to rake tells me that errata is needed. Also the pounce ability says nothing about being able to use the rake attacks in the full attack pounce action, but the monster rules for pounce say that rakes are included in a pounce attack.
So if we read the Eidolon RAW, we see that rake has limits, but rend does not, and pouncing does not activate rake. If we read Monster manual RAW we see that pounce activates rake, and that rend has limits.
And one final question, if you take improved damage claws, and have a rake attack do your "Rake claws" do more damage or do they stay as written, because despite being claws they are special use rake claws and could be subject to different rules, especially given that they have included sizing within the rules for rake.
The whole Summoner class needs some serious errata, mainly because players don't usually deal with the circumstances that the summoner is based around.
Does an eidolon that can't heal HP naturally heal ability scores over time? Or are you just hosed until you can take lesser restoration Eidolon at 4th level?
My main purpose here is not so much to get off topic, but to ideally call some attention to the idea that a better wording is needed.
Many eidolon special abilities are worded differently than the original versions in the bestiary.
The current version of the eidolon rend ability allows multiple rends in the same round.
Whenever the eidolon makes two successful claw attacks against the same target in 1 round
1. The original limitation is not there. If the limit is not there, then there is no limitation.
2. The ability states whenever it makes two successful claw attacks.So you attack 4 times with claws and hit all 4 times. Then there are 2 instances of two successful claw attacks. This is a perfectly legitimate reading of the ability.
As has also been said, there are other differences between eidolon abilities and the originals. A pouncing eidolon doesn't get rake. So clearly it gets buffs and nerfs.
If the dev's wanted to keep things simple they should have just used the exact abilities from the bestiary. But they didn't.
YAY!!!!