Rogues and underpoweredness

[Bomanz]

Here is a rogue I built in about 5 minutes the other day. Lvl 10, 20 point buy, standard WBL. I just kind of threw in a few of the feats, but this should give you an idea.

Spoiler:

rogue test
Human (Taldan) Rogue (Scout, Swashbuckler) 10
CN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +13
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Defense
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AC 23, touch 14, flat-footed 19 (+6 armor, +3 Dex, +3 natural, +1 dodge)
hp 63 (10d8+10)
Fort +4, Ref +10, Will +3; +2 bonus vs. sleep, paralysis, and stunning, +3 morale bonus vs. fear
Resist daring +3
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 Greataxe +13/+8 (1d12+10+2d6 on charge/x3) and
. . Unarmed strike +12/+7 (1d3+6+2d6 on charge/x2)
Special Attacks scout's charge, skirmisher, sneak attack +5d6
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 9
Base Atk +7; CMB +13; CMD 27
Feats Combat Expertise +/-2, Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round), Dodge, Dragon Style, Gang Up, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Spring Attack, Wind Stance
Traits Reactionary, Veteran of Battle
Skills Acrobatics +23, Appraise +8, Bluff +7, Climb +13, Diplomacy +9, Disable Device +9, Escape Artist +15, Fly +2, Intimidate +9, Linguistics +9, Perception +13, Ride +2, Sense Motive +10, Sleight of Hand +15, Stealth +15, Swim +9, Use Magic Device +9
Languages Celestial, Common
SQ rogue talents (another day [1/day], bonus feat, combat trick, combat trick, fast getaway, offensive defense)
Other Gear Rhino hide, +1 Greataxe, Amulet of natural armor +3, Belt of giant strength +4, Boots of striding and springing, 15015 GP
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Special Abilities
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Another Day (1/day) (Ex) If attack reduces below 1 hp, move 5 ft. If out of reach take 0 dam, but staggered next rd.
Combat Expertise +/-2 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Daring +3 (Ex) +3 save vs. fear.
Dragon Style +2 vs sleep, paralysis, and stun, first unarmed strike in a rd deals 1.5x Str, and can ignore difficult terrain/allies when charging.
Fast Getaway (Ex) After a sneak attack or Sleight of hand check, can withdraw as a move action.
Gang Up You are considered to be flanking your target if another ally is also adjacent to that target
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Offensive Defense (Ex) Sneak attack grants a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each die rolled vs. that foe.
Rhino hide Extra 2d6 damaga on charge attack rolls.
Scout's Charge (Ex) Charge attacks deal sneak attack damage as though foe is flat-footed.
Skirmisher (Ex) After move 10 ft, first attack deals sneak attack damage as though foe is flat-footed.
Sneak Attack +5d6 +5d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Spring Attack You can move - attack - move when attacking with a melee weapon.
Veteran of Battle +1 Initiative, draw a weapon as a free action during the surprise round.
Wind Stance Move more than 5 ft this round to gain 20% concealment against ranged attacks.

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Commentary:

His main attack is at +13, +15 when charging, +17 if he charges into a flank.

He can charge through any terrain, he can charge though his party members.

He can hit either with an open hand or his weapon, I chose great axe.

After he hits with sneak attack damage, he can immediately make a free withdraw action.

During movements, if he can't acrobatics through someone's spot, his AC goes up by another +4.

I'm sure it can be tweaked quite a bit, but still...I rather like it.

Hit and run. Never stop moving. Be out of the way of the enemy when its their turn to hit. Sneak Attack damage on pretty much EVERY hit you do. Gang Up in case its time to just stand around and beat on something.

With SA at 5d6, and the Rhino Hide at additional +2d6, on successful hit he deals 1d12 + 7d6 +10. Not too shabby, imho.

[Atarlost]

Well, I'm not impressed by your optimization skill. That there's an 18 point build. You've got to have 17 base strength and 13 dex with your racial +2 in dex and one level up in dex and the other in strength.
str 17 13
dex 13 3
con 12 2
int 13 3
wis 10 0
cha 9 -1

Since humans have a floating +2 you could have
str 15 7
dex 15 7
con 12 2
int 13 3
wis 12 2
cha 9 -1
and have the the exact same level 1 stats except for 2 more wisdom. That's to say nothing of dumping charisma all the way and getting another +2 wisdom of constitution.

If your at least half human and your +2 is in something that is not at least tied for your highest stat after adding the +2 and you're doing point buy you've made a mistake.

That's apart from the mistake of using Rhino Hide armor on a rogue. Hide is a medium armor. It's costing you evasion. You're giving up an ability that would cost 25,000 on a ring for 2d6 conditional damage. That's in addition to the -1 to attack rolls and the 33% movement reduction.

And if you charge you can't spring attack. If you don't spring attack you end your turn next to an enemy. If you end your turn next to an enemy you eat a full attack to the face.

Having just 20' movement also hurts your ability to spring attack and leads to you winding up next to enemies and eating a full attack.

Fast Getaway is not compatible with charging. It lets you get away the next turn, but that's after you get full attacked.

And, of course, with a movement rate of 20' and no ranged capability you are hilariously vulnerable to archers with 30' movement. If you did have a ranged weapon it would be inaccurate because you have the wrong stats for it. Wind Stance is not enough to make up the difference.

[Supreme]

I have played something similar, only an orc with a falchion so I could get crits easier, but sadly that's hardly effective when compared to the tank n' spank fighter full attacking things.

[Jeff Wilder]

mplindustries wrote:

Fighter and Rogue should be combined. And this does not, in any way, prevent you from playing your "not as good at combat" skill guy, trust me.

This intrigued me, so I pulled up Word to see what a workable combined class would look like. I immediately got stuck, because ... what would you call the combined class?

Champion? Troubleshooter?

It needs to be somewhat generic in a way that "fighter" isn't because of the role implications, and "rogue" isn't because of the personality implications.

I can't think of anything good.

[mplindustries]

Jeff Wilder wrote:

mplindustries wrote:

Fighter and Rogue should be combined. And this does not, in any way, prevent you from playing your "not as good at combat" skill guy, trust me.

This intrigued me, so I pulled up Word to see what a workable combined class would look like. I immediately got stuck, because ... what would you call the combined class?

Champion? Troubleshooter?

It needs to be somewhat generic in a way that "fighter" isn't because of the role implications, and "rogue" isn't because of the personality implications.

I can't think of anything good.

Adventurer? Hero? Personally, I would call them a Warrior or Rogue, but you vetoed Rogue and Warrior is already a thing.

[Jeff Wilder]

Here's my quickly assembled, unplaytested, likely horribly broken attempt at a class that can handle fighter or rogue or anything in-between. Criticism welcome, as long as the sentence before this one is kept in mind.

Spoiler:

Role -- Generally some form of non-magical combat.
Alignment -- Any.
Hit Die -- d10.
Starting Wealth -- 5d6 x 10 gp. Plus an outfit of 10 gp or less.

Class Skills -- Any 12, plus Profession and Craft.

Skill Ranks -- 6 + Int modifier.

BAB -- Full.
Good Saves -- Fortitude and Reflex.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies -- Simple and martial weapons; all armor and shields.

1st - Bonus feat or sneak attack +1d6; trapfinding.
2nd - Talent; heightened saving throw.
3rd - Armor training +1 or sneak attack +1d6; trap sense +1
4th - Talent.
5th - Weapon training +1 or sneak attack +1d6.
6th - Talent; trap sense +2.
7th - Armor training +1 or sneak attack +1d6.
8th - Talent; heightened saving throw.
9th - Weapon training +1 or sneak attack +1d6; trap sense +3.
10th - Talent; advanced talents.
11th - Armor training +1 or sneak attack +1d6.
12th - Talent; trap sense +4.
13th - Weapon training +1 or sneak attack +1d6.
14th - Talent.
15th - Armor training +1 or sneak attack +1d6; trap sense +5.
16th - Talent.
17th - Weapon training +1 or sneak attack +1d6.
18th - Talent; trap sense +6.
19th - Armor training +1 or sneak attack +1d6.
20th - Talent; weapon training +1; master strike.

Talent -- Combat feat, Teamwork feat, Skill feat, rogue talent, +4 skill points; evasion (adv: improved evasion); mettle (adv: improved mettle); uncanny dodge (adv: improved uncanny dodge); adv: Improved Iron Will; adv: Improved Lightning Reflexes; adv: Improved Great Fortitude; adv: advanced rogue talents

Heightened Saving Throw -- Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, or Great Fortitude as a bonus feat.

Armor Training -- ACP is 1 less per +1 (max 4 bonus); max Dex is 1 higher per +1 (max 4 bonus). Normal speed in medium armor. At +2, normal move in heavy armor. At +4, DR 2/- when wearing armor or using shield. At +5, DR 5/- when wearing armor or using shield.

Weapon Training -- At +5, as weapon mastery instead of normal benefit.

Master Strike -- If sneak attack of +5d6 (or better).

[voska66]

The rogue and ninja suffer the same problems. The ninja just has some more mystical ninja talentst that are cool but still leave them weak.

The real problem with the rogue is in Pathfinder two things occured.

1) AC increased. Take heavy armor as an example. But really it's that monsters in general have anywhere from 1 to 5 more AC over the 3.5 equivalent. Take the Marilith, AC 29 in 3.5 but AC 32 in PF. The Tarasque is AC 35 in 3.5 and AC 40 in PF. This differnce seem to go up as CR increases but there are some exceptions. So the rogue while they can sneak attack a lot more target are suffering basically up to -5 to hit due to the AC increase.

2) Class skills, in 3.5 class skills really meant something. Now they aren't much, just a +4. Not that I'm complaining, I prefer the skills this way but that did hurt the rogue. This would be such a bad thing except if it weren't for point 1. Used to be you felt that you weren't that good combat but you were the king of skills.

So in my games I house rule that at level 3,7,11,15,19 the rogue/ninja gets Sneak Attack Precision which is +1 to hit when the attack is a sneak attack and by level 19 they will have +5. This helps the rogue out greatly but doesn't give them an additional attack like Full Bab on sneak attacks would. With this the skills aren't a big deal any more.

Now what I've posted isn't to say the rogue is not playable, they are just it is more difficult at the higher levels.

[3.5 Loyalist]

Yeah, ridiculously high natural ac can shut down a rogue. Sometimes as a dm I find myself staring at the acs and going, really? There isn't another way to make these things hardy apart from ac and dr?

Great little idea on the sneak boost. Adapting to the very high numbers.

[mplindustries]

Jeff Wilder wrote:

Here's my quickly assembled, unplaytested, likely horribly broken attempt at a class that can handle fighter or rogue or anything in-between. Criticism welcome, as long as the sentence before this one is kept in mind.

If I were going to make a combined class, I'd do it this way:

Take the Rogue and Fighter class skills and combine them. 8+int class skills.

Simple/Martial weapon proficiency.

Choose 1: All Armor and Shields proficiency, or Light Armor only and Evasion/Uncanny Dodge progression like a Rogue.

All three good saves and Full BAB (so d10 HD).

Take the Fighter progression. Add the Rogue's Trapfinding and Trapsense. Change "Bonus Feats" to something like, "Mastery" and offer a choice of any Combat feat, Rogue Talent (or the Advanced Talents post 10th), or Sneak Attack +1d6.

I didn't put a lot of thought into it yet, but I'd probably just start with that and go from there. People are going to react badly to this, but the thing is, neither the Fighter nor the Rogue are great as is--the Fighter has a hard time contributing outside of combat and the Rogue has a hard time contributing anything in combat (and is obsoleted out of combat by Bards and several other classes), so combining them should not be a problem.

[3.5 Loyalist]

All good saves, and d10, and great bab, and 8 skills? lol

[rainzax]

3.5 Loyalist wrote:

All good saves, and d10, and great bab, and 8 skills? lol

...you know, trade one save and 2 skill points for 4-level spellcasting and what you have is a Ranger... just sayin'...

[proftobe]

rainzax wrote:

3.5 Loyalist wrote:

All good saves, and d10, and great bab, and 8 skills? lol

...you know, trade one save and 2 skill points for 4-level spellcasting and what you have is a Ranger... just sayin'...

Dont forget animal companion

[mplindustries]

3.5 Loyalist wrote:

All good saves, and d10, and great bab, and 8 skills? lol

I knew it would get this response, but I honestly don't see the problem, ultimately. Spells are still better. Rage + Rage Powers are pretty comparable. I guess it does leave Cavalier in the dust, but they weren't awesome to begin with.

The goal is basically that they are the height of "mundane," the best of the "normies."

[Atarlost]

ALL non-casters need two good saves and everyone that doesn't cast from int should have 4+int minimum. Possibly all non-casters should have 6+int.

I'm all for letting the rogue go the way of the weapon speed adjustment and the requirement that a druid beat up a higher level druid to reach name level or progress beyond it.

[Zenogu]

proftobe wrote:

rainzax wrote:

3.5 Loyalist wrote:

All good saves, and d10, and great bab, and 8 skills? lol

...you know, trade one save and 2 skill points for 4-level spellcasting and what you have is a Ranger... just sayin'...

Dont forget animal companion

I chuckled, as i was just reminded of the Lightning Warrior

http://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Lightning_Warrior

[gustavo iglesias]

Piccolo wrote:

Gimme a Rogue who thought to take Iron Will or Great Fortitude somewhere along the line when dealing with a GM that loves undead, one that adapts to whatever challenges are thrown in the way.

Why can't rangers, ninjas, alchemists or bards take Iron Will or Great fortitude?

Not to mention that they already have either higher will or higher fortitude than the rogue, even without the feat...

I find specially hilarious the fact that you think Ki points can be spent too quickly. Do you know what is a Ninja without ki points left? Bassically a rogue.