Lemmy, what output is that you are using for the stat blocks you post? I want to put up a build I have that I think is pretty much awesome. Thanks
It's BBCode, Bomanz.
You probably know that, but here it's anyway: Go to File -> Output Hero Statblock -> BBCode
It's damn useful.
Idk, access to improved evasion at 10th seems pretty cool, rangers don't get it til what 15th or 17th level? Ninja don't get it at all and can't disarm magical traps without draining party resources. I think Vanilla monks (no archetype) suck worse than Rogues, and the lower skill points and lack of SA with the bard swing my vote in favor of the Rogue over either of the above in most cases. Give the Rogue a break it's not that bad, and maybe people should consider not bagging on fighters either.
I think Vanilla monks (no archetype) suck worse than Rogues,
Again, Rogues don't suck--they're just obsolete. They are "good." But you can do the exact same thing with someone else better.
It's not like the choice between seeing Ang Lee's the Hulk or the Avengers. It's the choice between $20 and $25. $20 is good to have. $25 is better. For every Rogue, there is a better option. That is the problem.
Monks just actually suck. They are sort of obsoleted by Unarmed Fighters and Barbarians, but mostly, they're just weak.
OK, let's go back to my initial test point of rogue vs. ranger.
In this case we have dervish dancing builds, mostly trap oriented. The rogue is built to get as much sneak as possible (very sneaky and gangup). The Ranger is also designed to be a trap expert, and I also cheesed with a 20 dex at 1st (could have done that for the rogue, but then couldn't have gotten gangup). The rogue has 2 advanced talents because he did the racial class bonus of +1/6 rogue talent.
Rogue Dancing Fool
Test rogue
Human (Keleshite) Rogue (Scout) 11
N Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +9; Senses Perception +20
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Defense
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AC 28, touch 20, flat-footed 21 (+7 armor, +6 Dex, +1 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 80 (11d8+22)
Fort +8, Ref +17 (+3 bonus vs. traps), Will +9
Defensive Abilities rogue talents (fast stealth, finesse rogue, hide in plain sight [favored terrain [underground], improved evasion, trap spotter, weapon training), evasion, improved evasion, trap sense
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +3 Adamantine Scimitar +19/+14 (1d6+10/18-20/x2) and
Scimitar +16/+11 (1d6+7/18-20/x2)
Special Attacks scout's charge, skirmisher, sneak attack +6d6
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 24, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +8; CMB +8; CMD 28
Feats Combat Expertise +/-3, Dervish Dance, Dodge, Gang Up, Iron Will, Martial Weapon Proficiency (Scimitar), Skill Focus (Perception), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Appraise +16, Bluff +14, Climb +14, Diplomacy +14, Disable Device +28, Disguise +5, Escape Artist +21, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +16, Linguistics +6, Perception +20 (+25 to locate traps), Perform (dance) +5, Sleight of Hand +21, Stealth +26, Survival +0 (+2 to avoid becoming lost), Swim +14
Languages Aklo, Azlanti, Common, Kelish, Thassilonian
SQ trapfinding +5
Other Gear +3 Shadow Mithral Chain shirt, +3 Adamantine Scimitar, Scimitar, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of incredible dexterity +4, Boots of the cat, Cloak of resistance +3, Handy haversack (1 @ 162.4 lbs), Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ring of protection +2, Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), Thieves' tools, masterwork, 8120 GP
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Special Abilities
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Boots of the cat When falling, always land on feet and take the minimum damage.
Combat Expertise +/-3 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Stealth (Ex) You may move at full speed while using the Stealth skill without penalty.
Gang Up You are considered to be flanking your target if another ally is also adjacent to that target
Hide in Plain Sight (Favored Terrain [Underground]) (Ex) In your selected terrain, you can use Stealth to hide, even while being observed.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Scout's Charge (Ex) Charge attacks deal sneak attack damage as though foe is flat-footed.
Skirmisher (Ex) After move 10 ft, first attack deals sneak attack damage as though foe is flat-footed.
Sneak Attack +6d6 +6d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trap Spotter (Ex) Whenever you come within 10' of a trap, the GM secretly rolls for you to find it.
Trapfinding +5 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone. An ioun stone slotted in this manner grants you its normal benefits (as if it were orbiting your head), but frequently reveals entirely new powers due to the magic of the wayfinder itself (see Seeker of Secrets page 51).
Note: This item costs only 250gp for members of the Pathfinder Society
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, light; Cost 250 gp
Ranger Dancing Fool
Test Ranger 2
Male Human (Taldan) Ranger (Guide, Trapper) 11
NG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +20
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Defense
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AC 29, touch 20, flat-footed 22 (+7 armor, +6 Dex, +2 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 92 (11d10+22)
Fort +12 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +18, Will +9
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +3 Adamantine Scimitar +20/+15/+10 (1d6+17/15-20/x2)
Special Attacks ranger's focus +6 (4/day), ranger's luck (1/day)
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 26, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +11; CMB +11 (+13 Sundering); CMD 31 (33 vs. Sunder)
Feats Cleave, Dervish Dance, Dodge, Endurance, Improved Critical (Scimitar), Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Power Attack -3/+6, Skill Focus (Perception), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
Traits Indomitable Faith
Skills Climb +14, Craft (traps) +12, Disable Device +25, Handle Animal +3, Heal +4, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (geography) +4 (+8 while in underground terrain, +6 while in urban terrain), Knowledge (nature) +14, Perception +20 (+25 to locate traps, +24 while in underground terrain, +22 while in urban terrain), Perform (dance) +1, Profession (trapper) +4, Ride +12, Stealth +22 (+26 while in underground terrain, +24 while in urban terrain), Survival +14 (+16 to avoid becoming lost, +18 while in underground terrain, +16 while in urban terrain, +19 to track), Swim +6 (+10 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion)
Languages Common
SQ burning trap (modification), combat styles (two-handed weapon), exploding trap (modification), favored terrains (underground +4, urban +2), fire trap, freezing trap, inspired moment (1/day), launch trap, snare trap, swift tracker, terrain bond, track, trap (5/day) (dc 15), trapfinding +5, wild empathy, woodland stride
Other Gear +3 Mithral Chain shirt, +3 Adamantine Scimitar, Amulet of natural armor +2, Belt of incredible dexterity +4, Cloak of resistance +3, Handy haversack (1 @ 47.7 lbs), Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ring of protection +2, Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), 2385 GP
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Special Abilities
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Burning Trap (modification) (Ex) (Su) Effect A ranger can only add this to a fire trap. The trap explodes in fire, filling all squares adjacent to the trap and dealing a number of points of fire damage equal to 1d6 + 1/2 the ranger's level (Reflex negates). If it is an extraordina
Cleave If you hit a foe, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus but take -2 AC.
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Exploding Trap (modification) (Ex) (Su) Effect A ranger can only add this to a fire trap. The trap explodes in fire, filling all squares adjacent to the trap and dealing a number of points of fire damage equal to 1d6 + 1/2 the ranger's level (Reflex negates). If it is an extraordina
Favored Terrain (Underground +4) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Underground).
Favored Terrain (Urban +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Urban).
Fire Trap (Ex) (Su) Effect The trap explodes in flames, dealing a number of points of fire damage equal to 1d6 + 1/2 the ranger's level to the triggering creature (Reflex negates). If it is an extraordinary trap, the ranger must use an explosive material such as
Freezing Trap (Su) Effect The trap creates a burst of ice that damages and encases the triggering creature. The creature takes 1d3 points of cold damage + 1/4 the ranger's level and is entangled and stuck to the ground, similar to the effect of a tanglefoot bag.
Improved Sunder You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when sundering.
Inspired Moment (1/day) (Ex) Gain bonuses to many things until your next turn.
Launch Trap At 10th level, a trapper can affix a magical ranger trap to an arrow, crossbow bolt, or thrown weapon, allowing her to set the trap remotely or use it as a direct attack. Attaching the trap to the projectile is part of the full-round action of creati
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Ranger's Focus +6 (4/day) (Ex) +6 to hit and damage focused target.
Ranger's Luck (1/day) (Ex) Reroll an attack roll or make an enemy who just hit you reroll an attack roll.
Snare Trap Effect The trap constricts around a limb or other part of the triggering creature's body (Reflex avoids). The creature cannot move from the location of the trap, unless the ranger included a "leash" when setting the trap, in which case the cre
Swift Tracker (Ex) Tracking penalties when moving at normal speed or faster are reduced.
Terrain Bond (Ex) Allies within LOS and hearing gain +2 Initiative, Perception, Stealth, Survival and don't leave tracks within your favored terrain.
Track +5 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Trap (5/day) (DC 15) At 5th level, a trapper learns how to create a snare trap and one other ranger trap of her choice. At 7th level and every two levels thereafter, she learns another trap. The trapper can use these traps a total number of times per day equal to 1/2 her
Trapfinding +5 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone. An ioun stone slotted in this manner grants you its normal benefits (as if it were orbiting your head), but frequently reveals entirely new powers due to the magic of the wayfinder itself (see Seeker of Secrets page 51).
Note: This item costs only 250gp for members of the Pathfinder Society
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, light; Cost 250 gp
Wild Empathy +10 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.
Ok, time to compare DPR.
Target AC is 29 (common AC at CR 13). Assume sneak attack is possible.
Full attack. Rogue gets sneak attack (gang up and big teams will make this pretty common)
DPR 40
Ranger full attack (power attacking)
DPR 34
Aha! The rogue is ahead by a bit. (around 20% better)
OK, the ranger uses ranger focus(he has four a day, so can always expect to use it on a big boss):
DPR 83
Hmm, well that more than doubles the rogue at his best.
How about the rogue without sneak attack?
DPR 18
How about each on a single attack (rogue gets sneak)
Rogue 25
Ranger 20 (or 33 if focus is up)
Comparing other factors, the ranger has better saves and more HP. AC is close to the same. Rogue has improved evasion and a sick reflex save, so that's a done deal. The ranger has as good a reflex save, but no evasion at all.
The rogue does have an advantage in trapfinding due to trap spotter. The ranger actually gets better bonuses in his favored terrains, which being underground and urban are where a lot of the traps will be.
But I'll be honest, I didn't optimize the ranger for damage. Dervish dance is not an optimal ranger path. Going a strength route would have been smarter and significantly upped the DPR. This was just a very direct comparison.
I did this comparison for one of my PFS characters and opted for the ranger.
Here is a Ranger made for dungeon crawling. He's pretty good at exploring dark places. And his wolf should actually help a lot, but if you think having a large creature will be too troublesome, get a Bear or Cheetah companion. (Oddly, enough, Bear companions are smaller than Wolf companions).
Again, this one uses 20pt-buy and standard WBL. There are probably better style and feat choices, but I like the ones I took.
Dr.Cave McDigger CR 9
Male Half-Orc Ranger 10
N Medium Humanoid (human, orc)
Init +3; Senses darkvision; Perception +18
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Defense
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AC 23, touch 14, flat-footed 20 (+8 armor, +3 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 89 (10d10+30)
Fort +14 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +14, Will +10
Defensive Abilities evasion
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +16/+11 (1d4+6/x2) and
. . +1 Earth breaker +17/+12 (2d6+10/x3) and
. . +1 Silversheen Bardiche +17/+12 (1d10+10/19-20/x2) and
. . +1 Silversheen Scimitar +17/+12 (1d6+7/18-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Composite longbow (Str +6) +15/+10 (1d8+7/19-20/x3)
Special Attacks favored enemies (aberrations +2, monstrous humanoids +2, undead +6)
Ranger Spells Prepared (CL 9):
2 (2/day) Barkskin, Protection from Energy
1 (3/day) Lead Blades, Longstrider, Gravity Bow
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Base Atk +10; CMB +16; CMD 30
Feats Boon Companion (Ranger), Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round), Craft Wondrous Item, Endurance, Improved Precise Shot, Lunge, Manyshot, Power Attack -3/+6, Rapid Shot
Traits Indomitable Faith, Magical Knack (Ranger)
Skills Acrobatics +3 (-1 jump), Bluff -1 (+1 vs. aberrations, +1 vs. monstrous humanoids, +5 vs. undead), Climb +10, Handle Animal +12, Intimidate +1, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +13 (+15 vs. aberrations, +15 vs. monstrous humanoids, +19 vs. undead), Knowledge (nature) +13 (+15 vs. aberrations, +15 vs. monstrous humanoids, +19 vs. undead), Linguistics +4, Perception +18 (+20 vs. aberrations, +20 vs. monstrous humanoids, +24 vs. undead, +22 while in underground terrain, +20 while in urban terrain), Sense Motive +2 (+4 vs. aberrations, +4 vs. monstrous humanoids, +8 vs. undead), Spellcraft +11, Stealth +16 (+20 while in underground terrain, +18 while in urban terrain), Survival +11 (+13 to avoid becoming lost, +13 vs. aberrations, +13 vs. monstrous humanoids, +17 vs. undead, +15 while in underground terrain, +13 while in urban terrain, +16 to track), Swim +10 (+14 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion)
Languages Aklo, Common, Dwarven, Orc, Sylvan, Undercommon
SQ animal companion link, combat styles (archery), favored terrains (underground +4, urban +2), hunter's bonds (rump, wolf), share spells with companion, swift tracker, track, wild empathy, woodland stride
Other Gear +2 Breastplate, +1 Heavy steel shield, +1 Composite longbow (Str +6), +1 Earth breaker, +1 Silversheen Bardiche, +1 Silversheen Scimitar, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of physical perfection +2, Bracers of falcon's aim, Cloak of resistance +3, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ioun stone (clear spindle), Ring of protection +1, Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), 3762 GP
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Special Abilities
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Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Boon Companion (Ranger) +4 levels to calc familiar/animal comp abilities (max of your HD).
Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Favored Enemy (Aberrations +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Aberrations).
Favored Enemy (Monstrous Humanoids +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Monstrous Humanoids).
Favored Enemy (Undead +6) (Ex) +6 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Undead).
Favored Terrain (Underground +4) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Underground).
Favored Terrain (Urban +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Urban).
Improved Precise Shot Ignore AC bonuses and miss chance from anything less than total cover/concealment.
Ioun stone (clear spindle) Sustains bearer without food or water.
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Magical Knack (Ranger) +2 CL for a specific class, to a max of your HD.
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Share Spells with Companion (Ex) Can cast spells with a target of "you" on animal companion, as touch spells.
Swift Tracker (Ex) Tracking penalties when moving at normal speed or faster are reduced.
Track +5 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone. An ioun stone slotted in this manner grants you its normal benefits (as if it were orbiting your head), but frequently reveals entirely new powers due to the magic of the wayfinder itself (see Seeker of Secrets page 51).
Wild Empathy +9 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.
Rump
Wolf
N Large Animal
Init +3; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +13
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Defense
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AC 26, touch 12, flat-footed 23 (+4 armor, +3 Dex, -1 size, +10 natural)
hp 85 (+45)
Fort +11, Ref +9, Will +6 (+4 morale bonus vs. Enchantment spells and effects)
Defensive Abilities evasion
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Offense
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Speed 50 ft.
Melee Bite (1 extra at -5) (Wolf) +13 (1 extra at -5) (1d8+10/x2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks trip
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Statistics
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Str 24, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +6; CMB +14; CMD 27 (31 vs. Trip)
Feats Armor Proficiency (Light), Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round), Iron Will, Power Attack -2/+4, Weapon Focus (Bite)
Skills Acrobatics +3 (+11 jump), Fly +1, Perception +13, Stealth -1 Modifiers +4 to survival when tracking by scent
Languages
SQ devotion +4, multiattack / extra attack
Other Gear Masterwork Chain shirt, You have no money!
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Special Abilities
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+4 to Survival when tracking by Scent +4 to Survival when tracking by Scent.
Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Devotion +4 (Ex) +4 Morale bonus on Will Saves vs. Enchantments.
Evasion (Ex) No damage on successful reflex save.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Multiattack / Extra Attack Multiattack or second attack with primary weapon at a -5 penalty.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.
Trip (Ex) You can make a trip attempt on a successful attack.
- Dr.Cave here has about the same AC as the rogues I built, but not only he invested less money and feats on that, but he carries a shield in case he needs better defense instead of offense.
- Notice that he has Cha 08; he could drop it to 7 to increase some other thing, but I just didn't botter.
- As with most of my characters, he carries a variety of different weapons for different situations. But from this point foward, he should focus on improving them. And maybe carry a few clubs and oils of shilelagh just in case.
- Personally I don't usually max out Survival, as it doesn't come into play very often, and the bonus to Trackin covers most of your needs, anyway, so I invested somewhat in Spellcraft instead.
- Now that I mention it, Dr.Cave here can craft his own wondrous items. That means he saves lots of money and can equip not only himself, but Rump as well. Also easily replaceable if someone else decides to get this feat.
- I chose to prepare a different spell for each spell slot just to remind people of some useful spell in the Ranger's repertoire. In time this will also include things like Instant Enemy, Terrain Bond and Freedom of Movement. So assuming Ranger spell are crap is a terrible mistake, my friends.
- BTW, Magical Knack increases Dr.Cave's caster level by two.
Sigh. After having examined many of the classes, AND your collective arguments, I think I'd rather have a Rogue along whilst dungeon crawling, or indeed just about anywhere in the typical 4 man team. Rangers really don't have the skills Rogues do, and thus aren't as adaptable. Plus, Rangers are straight out warrior types, and should be treated as such.
There's nothing making Rangers "straight out warrior types that should be treated as such",except the fact that if you don't, Rogues has no place.
I've done more damage with a dagger and a stupid Sleep spell, or lantern oil and a spark,
Every class can use a lantern oil and a spark. I don't know why you think only rogues can use his brain. A ranger can use his brain just as good, and he has full BAB, spells, better armor and weapon selection, and favored enemy. And he can use lantern oil and sparks just like the rogue does.
than the lot of you seem to think is possible. Really, do you Rogue haters ever stop and consider just how flexible and all around useful it is to simply be good at more skills than anyone else?
He is not better at more skills than anyone else. Bards are better skill monkeys, and several INT based characters are as well, just because they have INT as base ability and often they can afford to use his favored class as skill points instead of HP, as they don't have to melee with crappy armor.
Rogues can disable magical traps.
Other classes cannot.
That's the only reason to roll rogue, unless you want to do so for flavor.
[
well, lets see.
why the rogue have combat expertise? Improved initiative or +2 to the for t saves would be better.
It is a prerequisite for Gang Up which is why I am willing to assume the rogue sneak attacks much of the time. Without it, he's going to have a much harder time doing it.
obviously the rogue do not outdamage the ranger everytime as it should be. But when the rogue does better when he can sneak attack and teh ranger do not use his special trick.
So far Not that bad really.
Yes, if the rogue can sneak attack, he is slightly ahead.
The rogue also does better at social encounters the ranger do not have any option for that. The rogue also have a decent kwnoledge (dungeonering) useful to know if a creature cover by the skill have scent.
I could have done the ranger differently and tried for social stuff, but as I see it, if you want that kind of skill monkey, build a bard. You will then compound lots of skills with a reason to have a high charisma. The knowledge skills are something of a wash really. Dungeoneering is also a ranger skill, so I could have pumped that instead of nature.
The skill of the rogue are also weird allocated.
i wouldl remove 2 points in swim, 4 in climb, 4 in perform (dance). and 3 in liguistic to take UMD. with a masterwork tool the rogue would have +16, enough to activate several wands, particulary cure light wounds.
Actually these are also comparable in the lacking magic regard since as a trapper ranger, this one gives up spells. Yes, most rogue builders seem to like UMD.
Honestly, I wasn't really concentrating on skills beyond the ability to find and deal with traps. The rest can be juggled as needed. The ranger could also likely be improved with a starting dex of 18 instead of 20, and then he could also have a 14 int, which is pretty handy.
Rogues can disable magical traps.
Other classes cannot.
That's the only reason to roll rogue, unless you want to do so for flavor.
Yes, in the core, that is correct. With archetypes, however, there are plenty of other options which get the trapfinding ability which allows disabling magical traps. Rangers, Bards, Oracles, and Alchemists can do the job with the right builds (perhaps more can, don't know all the options).
I have a Catfolk Ninja build that focus on using its claws, but I can't find it right now... -.-'
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The rogue is not underpowered, not by a long shot. I have found that the majority of people who think that fall into two categories: 1) players who don't really know how to build them effectively, and 2) players who are stuck with GMs who don't know how to build an adventure that suits the rogue. I will agree that Pathfinder and 3.0 have been pretty bad about nerfing the things rogues are supposed to be good at, but they've tweaked them in areas they were never meant to be good, such as front- line fighting (and before anyone protests that they're not good on the front line, see category 1 above).
Once again, the bolded part isn't proof of rogue being balanced. If I make a commoner farmer, my DM could build an adventure that suits perfectly my character, with lots of farm-related stuff. But that's not proof that commoner are balanced with fighters and wizards. Quite the opposite. Aquaman isn't on par with Superman, even if the DM puts a lot of underwater adventure to make him shine.
If I make a wheelchaired character, and the DM puts a special olympic game where only impaired people can play, I can win my gold medal too. It doesn't put me on par with the character who can jump, because I'm still unable to jump.
Rogues are underpowered. They need help. They can't do anything that other class can't do better.
Yes, in the core, that is correct. With archetypes, however, there are plenty of other options which get the trapfinding ability which allows disabling magical traps. Rangers, Bards, Oracles, and Alchemists can do the job with the right builds (perhaps more can, don't know all the options).Rogues can disable magical traps.
Other classes cannot.
That's the only reason to roll rogue, unless you want to do so for flavor.
Not only that, but any class with a single dip in Rogue, or any of those, can disable magical traps just fine.
A Figher 19 Trapper Ranger 1 can disable magical traps. Or a Paladin 19 Bard 1, etc.
Apart from Sneak Attack.
Rogues are underpowered. They need help. They can't do anything that other class can't do better.
Ninjas and Alchemist Vivisectionist put the final nail on that coffin.
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Apart from Sneak Attack.
Rogues are underpowered. They need help. They can't do anything that other class can't do better.
Actually, both Ninjas and Alchemists can do Sneak Attack better...
EDIT: Ninja'ed in a post about ninjas... Oh, the irony...
Dispel magic is the most widespread spell in the game. Most classes can dispel magic.Rogues can disable magical traps.
Other classes cannot.
That's the only reason to roll rogue, unless you want to do so for flavor.
Not to mention that more often than not, there are better ways to bypass the trap. You don't have to disarm each and every trap in your way, you just have to avoid triggering it while you're in the affected area.
Dispel magic is the most widespread spell in the game. Most classes can dispel magic.Rogues can disable magical traps.
Other classes cannot.
That's the only reason to roll rogue, unless you want to do so for flavor.
Oh I don't disagree. I am just saying. That's the one ability rogues have over others, and that rogue archetypes get rid of, which is kind-of hilarious.
Ninjas and Alchemist Vivisectionist put the final nail on that coffin.Apart from Sneak Attack.
Rogues are underpowered. They need help. They can't do anything that other class can't do better.Ninjas's a rogue variant, so it would have sneak attack.
Vivisectionists are undoubtably strong. And banned from PFS :-(
So there's one archetype of one class that gets their ability...
Sandman Bards get it, too, but much less.
Sneak Attack isn't a strong ability anyway. 3.5 precision damage every other level in exacting conditions is not that impressive or valuable.
Ninjas and Alchemist Vivisectionist put the final nail on that coffin.Apart from Sneak Attack.
Rogues are underpowered. They need help. They can't do anything that other class can't do better.Ninjas's a rogue variant, so it would have sneak attack.
Vivisectionists are undoubtably strong. And banned from PFS :-(
So there's one archetype of one class that gets their ability...
Yes, ninja's a rogue variant. But it' part of every "rogue's underpowered" thread because it's often mentioned that ninja>rogue.
It basically can do everything a rogue can do, plus vanish. I give rogues in my games ki points for free (I refluff them as "cunning points" and base them to intelligence for non-oriental flavor, that some players don't like). It makes a biiiiiiig change in the rogue playability. Still have issues, but poison-choking bombs and vanish help alot.
I remember playing an Orc Rogue with an 85 point build (oh yeah). A scout-rogue orc with a falchion with also a level dip in shadowdancer, so almost all my attacks were sneak attacks.
Still could not compete with a druid or even the Alchemist that was 3 levels lower.
Sandman Bards get it, too, but much less.
Sneak Attack isn't a strong ability anyway. 3.5 precision damage every other level in exacting conditions is not that impressive or valuable.
True. In the end, Sneak Attack is just a fancy name for "extra damage". Lots of classes have extra damage too (smite evil, favored enemy, weapon specialization, increased unarmed damage, whatever). And most classes outdamage rogues, even when the rogues are sneak-attacking.
I remember one time where we were in a highish level PFS dungeon with an obviously trapped puzzle door. Instead of trying to figure out the dumb puzzle or use disable devise with failure consequence we just had the oracle cast silence, and had the barbarian with an adamantine greatsword and the barbarian/alchemist smash the stone wall away.
In fact the above barbarian made good use of that sword on multiple occasions, many times to open doors where there were none (and doors are the most common places for traps). Who need to disable traps or open locks when you can just hulk smash with a silence spell up?
Bard can trivialize a lot of combat though. Swarm/Rain Of Frogs is pretty gnarly. Plus invisibility. Ultimate Magic really helped Bards out in terms of damage spells.
I remember one time where we were in a highish level PFS dungeon with an obviously trapped puzzle door. Instead of trying to figure out the dumb puzzle or use disable devise with failure consequence we just had the oracle cast silence, and had the barbarian with an adamantine greatsword and the barbarian/alchemist smash the stone wall away.
In fact the above barbarian made good use of that sword on multiple occasions, many times to open doors where there were none (and doors are the most common places for traps). Who need to disable traps or open locks when you can just hulk smash with a silence spell up?
Silence works on magical traps? How does that work?
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Yes, ninja's a rogue variant. But it' part of every "rogue's underpowered" thread because it's often mentioned that ninja>rogue.
It basically can do everything a rogue can do, plus vanish. I give rogues in my games ki points for free (I refluff them as "cunning points" and base them to intelligence for non-oriental flavor, that some players don't like). It makes a biiiiiiig change in the rogue playability. Still have issues, but poison-choking bombs and vanish help alot.
I'm GMing for a group that includes a Ninja right now. The player was told me he thought Ninjas were better but didn't like the oriental flavor. My answer to him was that the flavor of his character is what he makes of it.
Noone walks around with a neon sign on their forehead telling the world which class they belong too.Rogues, much like Fighters, probably don't even identify themselves as such. A Paladin knows he's a Paladin, but s Rogue probably just sees himself as a guy with a knack for underhanded tactics. And a fighter believes he's just a particullary skilled warrior.
Hell, you can play a Inquisitor as a Cleric. Or a LG Cleric as a Paladin. You can fluff your Wizard as a Witch and vice-versa. Paladins, Fighters, Cavaliers and even Rangers all make great knights.
What I mean is: Fluff is what you make of it. The official fluff is merely a nice suggestion. Don't restrict yourself to it.
Well, it is mentioned in this thread that other classes, including ranger, can do all the things a rogue can do plus they fight better.
This ranger fight better and have the same trapfinding but the rogue is better at skills.
Playing a bard is not a real answer, unless someone make a build that outdamage the rogue, is better at scouting and trapfinding/disarming, and equal or better at skills. (I am not saying it can non bet done, I just saying nobody have done it in this thread)
What is said, is everything a rogue can do, someone else will do better. So the rogue has no niche. Sure, not every class will beat rogues at everything. But he is beaten by someone else, all the time.
Is there a social encounter? Send the bard, the paladin, the sorcerer or the summoner. The rogue has social skills, but he's not the best. He's not even great, just acceptable.
Do you need to scout? Send the ranger, the druid, the ninja, the alchemist, the dex based magus, the inquisitor... Any of them can stealth just as well (some will require a trait, but whatever), and have lots of other stuff to back up (like invisibility, pass without trace, wild-shaping, etc.
Do you need some burst damage? Magus, Summoners, Barbarians, fighters, almost everyone can do that job better. Even some druid *pets* can do it better.
So yes, the rogue can sneak attack better than the bard, and talk better than (some) rogues. But in any given balanced party, the rogue has no niche. He can't do anything, that some other of his companions couldn't do better. He's a "apprentice of everything, master of anything" class.
There's two niches where he can shine. Disarming magical traps, if nobody has an archetype that works at it (and the campaign is trap-heavy, which not all of them are), and reliable use of some skills, once you go beyond level 10 (thanks to Skill Mastery Talent)
Yes, ninja's a rogue variant. But it' part of every "rogue's underpowered" thread because it's often mentioned that ninja>rogue.
It basically can do everything a rogue can do, plus vanish. I give rogues in my games ki points for free (I refluff them as "cunning points" and base them to intelligence for non-oriental flavor, that some players don't like). It makes a biiiiiiig change in the rogue playability. Still have issues, but poison-choking bombs and vanish help alot.
I'm GMing for a group that includes a Ninja right now. The player was told me he thought Ninjas were better but didn't like the oriental flavor. My answer to him was that the flavor of his character is what he makes of it.
Noone walks around with a neon sign on their forehead telling the world which class they belong too.
Rogues, much like Fighters, probably don't even identify themselves as such. A Paladin knows he's a Paladin, but s Rogue probably just sees himself as a guy with a knack for underhanded tactics. And a fighter believes he's just a particullary skilled warrior.
Hell, you can play a Inquisitor as a Cleric. Or a LG Cleric as a Paladin. You can fluff your Wizard as a Witch and vice-versa. Paladins, Fighters, Cavaliers and even Rangers all make great knights.What I mean is: Fluff is what you make of it. The official fluff is merely a nice suggestion. Don't restrict yourself to it.
His problem is not Fluff, but that an entire class is borderline useless compared to any other class. Why would I roll a Paladin versus a Barbarian? Well Barbarians don't get spells and Smite Evil, and a free celestial mount. Why would I roll Rogue versus Ninja? Uhm, able to disable magical traps, I guess, unless I take an archetype? Ugh.
Bard can trivialize a lot of combat though. Swarm/Rain Of Frogs is pretty gnarly. Plus invisibility. Ultimate Magic really helped Bards out in terms of damage spells.
Silence works on magical traps? How does that work?I remember one time where we were in a highish level PFS dungeon with an obviously trapped puzzle door. Instead of trying to figure out the dumb puzzle or use disable devise with failure consequence we just had the oracle cast silence, and had the barbarian with an adamantine greatsword and the barbarian/alchemist smash the stone wall away.
In fact the above barbarian made good use of that sword on multiple occasions, many times to open doors where there were none (and doors are the most common places for traps). Who need to disable traps or open locks when you can just hulk smash with a silence spell up?
I guess it did not work on the magical trap. But made the barbarian silent while smashing the door. No noise, no alarm.
You could had used Passwall, or dimensional door, or dispel magic. The thing is, you can overcome a lot of traps, without needing to disable it
Idk, access to improved evasion at 10th seems pretty cool, rangers don't get it til what 15th or 17th level? Ninja don't get it at all and can't disarm magical traps without draining party resources. I think Vanilla monks (no archetype) suck worse than Rogues, and the lower skill points and lack of SA with the bard swing my vote in favor of the Rogue over either of the above in most cases. Give the Rogue a break it's not that bad, and maybe people should consider not bagging on fighters either.
Ninjas just grab the rogue one. Yeah, they can do that as it is a Advanced Talent after grabbing evasion.
So Ninja can if they wanted. You need to reread Ninja:
https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/alternate-classes/ninja
Bard can trivialize a lot of combat though. Swarm/Rain Of Frogs is pretty gnarly. Plus invisibility. Ultimate Magic really helped Bards out in terms of damage spells.
Silence works on magical traps? How does that work?I remember one time where we were in a highish level PFS dungeon with an obviously trapped puzzle door. Instead of trying to figure out the dumb puzzle or use disable devise with failure consequence we just had the oracle cast silence, and had the barbarian with an adamantine greatsword and the barbarian/alchemist smash the stone wall away.
In fact the above barbarian made good use of that sword on multiple occasions, many times to open doors where there were none (and doors are the most common places for traps). Who need to disable traps or open locks when you can just hulk smash with a silence spell up?
The idea is you can make the sound of a barbarian smashing a wall silent. Not because it actually disables a trap you are bypassing
His problem is not Fluff, but that an entire class is borderline useless compared to any other class. Why would I roll a Paladin versus a Barbarian? Well Barbarians don't get spells and Smite Evil, and a free celestial mount. Why would I roll Rogue versus Ninja? Uhm, able to disable magical traps, I guess, unless I take an archetype? Ugh.
I understood what you meant... I guess I was sidetracking. My answer mostly refered to the bolded part in the following post:
Yes, ninja's a rogue variant. But it' part of every "rogue's underpowered" thread because it's often mentioned that ninja>rogue.
It basically can do everything a rogue can do, plus vanish. I give rogues in my games ki points for free (I refluff them as "cunning points" and base them to intelligence for non-oriental flavor, that some players don't like). It makes a biiiiiiig change in the rogue playability. Still have issues, but poison-choking bombs and vanish help alot.
BTW, in my game, I just fused Rogue and Ninja. The character gets the abilities of both classes. So that's Trapfinding & Evasion added to Ki Powers & Poison Use.
With Boon Companion, the Ranger's pet doesn't suck any more.
Yes, ninja's a rogue variant. But it' part of every "rogue's underpowered" thread because it's often mentioned that ninja>rogue.
It basically can do everything a rogue can do, plus vanish. I give rogues in my games ki points for free (I refluff them as "cunning points" and base them to intelligence for non-oriental flavor, that some players don't like). It makes a biiiiiiig change in the rogue playability. Still have issues, but poison-choking bombs and vanish help alot.
I'm GMing for a group that includes a Ninja right now. The player was told me he thought Ninjas were better but didn't like the oriental flavor. My answer to him was that the flavor of his character is what he makes of it.
Noone walks around with a neon sign on their forehead telling the world which class they belong too.
No, but if you are proficient with shurikens, kama and wakizashi, the oriental flavor is there. If use "ki" points, the flavor is stronger than if you use "cunning" points. If you use a wakizashi, the flavor is stronger than if you use a rapier. I have no problem with a player wanting to play a rapier wielding stylish rogue, and let him to use some token bean points (named ki, or otherwise) so he can get his job done.
Rogues need to vanish. Call it invisiblity, Vanish, Hide in plain sight, whatever. But without that, they are very limited, and worse than other "stealthy" classes. Most other stealthy classes can vanish in some way, or have powers that allow them to move into position easier.
Playing a bard is not a real answer, unless someone make a build that outdamage the rogue, is better at scouting and trapfinding/disarming, and equal or better at skills. (I am not saying it can non bet done, I just saying nobody have done it in this thread)
Archeleogist Bard can. Unlike Sneak attack, his Luck bonus will be multiplied on a crit, can be activaed a swift action, etc
Talents like trap spotter choosen helps traps.Unlike a Rogue he has ability to use all knowledge skills without a rank (Rogues can't, they have few knowledge skills); meaning he can know about all enemies's weaknesses.
Then he has spells: did you know spells can do things like invisibility, faster movement, haste (2nd level Allegro version too), etc.
Someone post a Rogue of a certain level and I'll do a Bard counter. Bard will win due to his ability to buff (Double the attacks from haste/allegro, beter defense like mirror image, cheaper magic items due to crafting meaning more WBL, etc).
That's basically what I do, Gustavo. The Ninja player itself is often referred as "rogue" by the other players. And "scoundrel" by their characters, heh...
His character never made any mention of "Ki". For him, it's just some magical talent. He learned to cast minor spells to be better at infiltration, kinda like the "Minor Magic" Rogue Talent. Vanishing Trick is just an Invisibility spell cast through his minor knowledge of magic.
Wakizashi? Well, use a dagger instead. Or just call the wakizashi a dagger. (Although it doesn't really matter because he uses a pair of cestus).
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That is not the best argument. Lets see what happens if we apply it to rangers.
Bards have more skill points, paladins have better saves, clerics cast way better, magus can scout better with invisibility, barbarian have more DPR, druids have a better pet.
Ergo rangers sucks.
Rangers have a lot of things that make them unique. They track very well, they have access to combat feats without paying the prerequisites (for example, a Shield&Sword ranger can take shield master at lvl 6. No other class can). They also have favored terrain, which allow them to roll higher DC than others while in their terrain. Both the Ranger and the Monk can have stealth, but the Ranger beats the monk while in his favored terrain.
Plus there are several spells that ranger have that are unique (like Lead Blades, Residual Tracking, Chamaleon Stride or Protective Spirit), some others that are very limited among other classes (like Call Animal, Aspect of Falcon, Charm Animal etc, which are only shared by druids)
While some classes can step on the toes of a ranger (like inquisitors or druids), they aren't near in the same position than rogues.
That's basically what I do, Gustavo. The Ninja player itself is often referred as "rogue" by the other players. And "scoundrel" by their characters, heh...
His character never made any mention of "Ki". For him, it's just some magical talent. He learned to cast minor spells to be better at infiltration, kinda like the "Minor Magic" Rogue Talent. Vanishing Trick is just an Invisibility spell cast through his minor knowledge of magic.
Wakizashi? Well, use a dagger instead. Or just call the wakizashi a dagger. (Although it doesn't really matter because he uses a pair of cestus).
We are doing bassically the same, yes. The only difference is I gave a name to the ki points.
@Nicos:
You know, I don't particullary like the idea of a Rogue with full BAB. It just doesn't fit the class for me.
That said, it'd be nice to have some way to buff their attack rolls. Maybe a Luck bonus that they can apply in different ways...
IIRC, Maste Arminas made a pretty good rogue homebrew a while ago, you should check it out. It's full of good ideas, and someone also posted some homebrew Rogue Talents that were very cool.