Seeing how even someone from the staff probably sighed in relief while looking at the number of FAQ clicks (impression strongly due to this "little something" I had the chance to see sooner but disappeared), I'm 104% persuaded that even if this makes it into the FAQ, there will be a line visible only by highlighting it saying :
"Seriously dudes, we would politely inform you to just read the damn sentences and stop making us lose our time with this.
Love, Paizo.
P.S : No, seriously, stop.".
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Ok guys I will admit I am wrong an let it go. It honestly still reads that way to me.But the truth is if this many people are telling you that you are wrong, then well most likely you are indeed wrong :)
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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
*desperately attempts to revive TOZ*
Keep your guard up, it's some clever ploy by Seeker. I refuse to believe he could just drop the argument.
Roll Perception, ready attacks against comebacks. This ain't over yet.
Gorbacz wrote: *desperately attempts to revive TOZ*
Keep your guard up, it's some clever ploy by Seeker. I refuse to believe he could just drop the argument.
Roll Perception, ready attacks against comebacks. This ain't over yet.
Ready to SENSE MOTIVE!!
*sigh*
I apologize in advance for this post.
I trust we're all in agreement that the use of the word "can" in "A qinggong monk can select a ki power (see below) for which she qualifies in place of the following monk class abilities..." is problematic?
I've looked over the arguments and in my games, choosing to play a qinggong monk means immediately losing the 11 abilities, to be replaced with items from the list at the appropriate time.
In other words, I (sadly) agree with seeker's original argument. Yeah, I wish the qinggong worked differently and it was a true replacement for the Monk, but based on reading the actual rules, I can't agree that it is.
(And again, this is only for my campaign - were I to play in another DM's sandbox and they wanted to go with the majority on this, I'd have absolutely no objection)
Here's my reasoning:
I like to start at the basics and build to the end, thus let me set aside the wording of the qinggong for the moment and start with what it says about Alternate Class features.
(emphasis mine and formatting mine)
PRD wrote: 1. When a character selects a class, he must choose to use the standard class features found or those listed in one of the archetypes presented here.
2. Each alternate class feature replaces a specific class feature from its parent class.
3. For example, the elemental fist class feature of the monk of the four winds replaces the stunning fist class feature of the monk.
4. When an archetype includes multiple class features, a character must take all of them—often blocking the character from ever gaining certain familiar class features, but replacing them with equally powerful options.
5. All of the other class features found in the core class and not mentioned among the alternate class features remain unchanged and are acquired normally when the character reaches the appropriate level (unless noted otherwise).
6. A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites.
I broke down the sentences into numbers for easier reference.
1, 2, and 3 seems straightforward and simple enough. If you choose to take advantage of alternate class features (such as by choosing an archetype), then you swap out the specified class features. Likewise, 5&6 seem equally straightforward.
However, #4 seems to be the key to me. It says that if there are multiple class features, then all of the original class features are replaced with the new ones.
(And since I can't think of any published examples where there aren't multiple changes, essentially the second you choose an archetype/alt class, you immediately lose all the original class abilities, which are class features)
Now let's look at the troublesome part of the qinggong.
PRD wrote: A qinggong monk can select a ki power (see below) for which she qualifies in place of the following monk class abilities: slow fall (4th), high jump (5th), wholeness of body (7th), diamond body (11th), abundant step (12th), diamond soul (13th), quivering palm (15th), timeless body (17th), tongue of the sun and moon (17th), empty body (19th), and perfect self (20th). This replaces the monk class ability the qinggong monk gives up for this ki power. Even with the word "can", I don't see how any of that overrules or explicitely creates an exception to the rules regarding Alternate Class Features.
Why the use of the word "can", O Amazing Creskin?
I dunno, maybe the writer was being extremely polite that day. Maybe they wanted to cater to the players that like to nerf themselves, in which case they'd have the option of not taking any ki power, to the dismay of their comerades. Maybe it was bad writing. Maybe the class is meant to break the Alternate Class Features. The list of whys and wherefores are endless.
However, I'm not psychic and have never claimed to be.
My reading is that as soon as "qinggong" is chosen, then those 11 "standard" monk abilities are lost. However, they may be chosen later, if desired as per the alternate class feature.
Shisumo makes an excellent point regarding later text that includes the phrase, "Even if a monk selects a different ki power in place of a monk ability..." which I very much agree that one interpretation of it makes it seem that one has the option of swiping out a monk ability for a ki power, but it is not mandatory. The argument is then made that suggests that the Paizo writers would have to be some of the worst in the world to include that sentence without intending for the class feature to be optional.
I disagree with the quality of writing that would be required to write such a sentence and not mean it to give the qinggong player a choice, although it is a poor sentence.
After all, if the intent was to convey that should a qinggong monk choose not to take a ki power that corresponded to the equivelant monk ability at the appropriate level, then they could still take that ki power later than a "standard" monk, it would be badly written. (and no, mine is certainly worse)
On the other hand, if it was pointing out the optional nature of ki power choice, as argued by most in this thread, then it should address #4 in the overall rules of Alternate Class Features. It should explictly state that it is an exception to the rules.
And y'know, if that were the case, I'd be thrilled. You have no idea how much.
But what was the author's intent? Short of an official clarification, I don't think any of us can intelligently say.
After all, I think I'm right based on the rules for Alternate Class Features, others disagree and cite the specific wording of the alternate class feature.
Short of that official clarification, this is basically Schrodinger's Monk. I for one wouldn't say those in opposition to my interpretation are wrong because I don't see it as clear-cut.
However, I'd love to be wrong.
Someone earlier pointed out the parentheses used in a table over on d20pfsrd denoted the optional nature of it, but this was rightly pointed out to be unofficial.
Short of Paizo making an official clarification (and I hope they do), I can point to an auxillary official source that treats the qinggong exactly as I interpret it - Herolab, which as I understand is the official Pathfinder character generator.
Of course, while I'd like to think that the Herolab folks had the same discussion and asked Paizo about it, short of any statement to the effect from either party, I'd give it the same weight as d20pfsrd - unofficial interpretation.
But hey, at least someone else thinks the interpretation to be plausible.
tl:dr - I see nothing to suggest that qinggong is meant to be exempt from the rules for Alternate Class Features.
@enrious
Although i understand what you are saying but instead of saying what others (and you) have alredy said about that specific sentence in the archetype i will simply say that:
The monk class needs this archetype to be working the way all of us think it works, yes i understand that this means that the qinggong monk becomes the default monk but you know what? i don't mind if it does, in fact i welcome such change because we all know that the core monk needs as much help as it can get. So i don't mind if the qinggong becomes monk 2.0, i hope they give this treatment to other classes who have this issue.
Believe me, leo, I don't disagree with you.
I just wish they'd make it clear if that's what they want to do. Or clear if that's not what they want to do and then people could use it as you suggest, with eyes open.
According to that interpretation, enrious, it would be impossible, literally impossible, for anyone to ever take the qinggong monk archetype.
Your pivotal line:
4. When an archetype includes multiple class features, a character must take all of them—often blocking the character from ever gaining certain familiar class features, but replacing them with equally powerful options.
Now, qinggong monk has far, far more abilities than anyone can take. Heck, there are 15 options for 4th level. If you don't take them all, then by definition you're not taking them all, which violates number 4. Or does it?
Let's look more closely. "When an archetype includes multiple class features"
Now, let's look at the qinggong monk. If you'll notice, it only has one class feature. That class feature is called Ki Power. The rest of the entry talks about how to use that class feature. But, again, there is only one, though it allows you to do many things.
Since there is only one, and you're taking it, there is no problem. Sure, it's a feature that changes almost every ability you have. But it is only one, and so doesn't qualify for line 4. And even if it did, all you have to do is to take Ki Power, not replace anything. It's the class feature itself that lists options, the options aren't all separate class features.
Montana77 wrote: KrispyXIV wrote: seekerofshadowlight wrote: Many archetypes and classes use the word "can" it does not mean you have an option. Perhaps you can cite where this is true so we can look at that for comparison? Did a search of my apg.pdf of the word "can", and while it appears ALOT, nowhere does it refer to a choice of taking an ability or not (Ranger combat styles and Rogue talents excluded).
Haven't searched UM or UC, but as far as I can see, the Qigong monk is unique.
As for the discussion:
The rules are clear about Archetypes but the qigong monk has two lines that clearly contradicts that rule:
"A qinggong monk can select a ki power (see below) for which she qualifies in place of the following monk class abilities"
And later:
"Even if a qinggong monk selects a different ki power in place of a standard monk ability, she can select that monk ability later as one of her ki powers."
The first sentence clearly indicates that you have a choice to switch abilities and the second sentence doesn't make any sense if you don't have the choice to not switch abilities, and it also states that you have a choice.
This.
This is one of the original concepts we were throwing around during Beta Search Xaaon's Monk in the archive.
leo1925 wrote: @enrious
Although i understand what you are saying but instead of saying what others (and you) have alredy said about that specific sentence in the archetype i will simply say that:
The monk class needs this archetype to be working the way all of us think it works, yes i understand that this means that the qinggong monk becomes the default monk but you know what? i don't mind if it does, in fact i welcome such change because we all know that the core monk needs as much help as it can get. So i don't mind if the qinggong becomes monk 2.0, i hope they give this treatment to other classes who have this issue.
Which effectively is PF Monk, the monk in the core rulebook remained as it was to maintain backwards compatibility. This is optional, so, it maintains forward momentum.
Magicdealer wrote: According to that interpretation, enrious, it would be impossible, literally impossible, for anyone to ever take the qinggong monk archetype.
Your pivotal line:
4. When an archetype includes multiple class features, a character must take all of them—often blocking the character from ever gaining certain familiar class features, but replacing them with equally powerful options.
Now, qinggong monk has far, far more abilities than anyone can take. Heck, there are 15 options for 4th level. If you don't take them all, then by definition you're not taking them all, which violates number 4. Or does it?
Let's look more closely. "When an archetype includes multiple class features"
Now, let's look at the qinggong monk. If you'll notice, it only has one class feature. That class feature is called Ki Power. The rest of the entry talks about how to use that class feature. But, again, there is only one, though it allows you to do many things.
Since there is only one, and you're taking it, there is no problem. Sure, it's a feature that changes almost every ability you have. But it is only one, and so doesn't qualify for line 4. And even if it did, all you have to do is to take Ki Power, not replace anything. It's the class feature itself that lists options, the options aren't all separate class features.
It's a fair point and something I'd thought when looking at it - is it replacing one feature or is it replacing multiple features?
Let me quote the first two paragraphs relating to the ki power:
PRD wrote: A qinggong monk can select a ki power (see below) for which she qualifies in place of the following monk class abilities: slow fall (4th), high jump (5th), wholeness of body (7th), diamond body (11th), abundant step (12th), diamond soul (13th), quivering palm (15th), timeless body (17th), tongue of the sun and moon (17th), empty body (19th), and perfect self (20th). This replaces the monk class ability the qinggong monk gives up for this ki power.
Ki powers are abilities that draw on the power of a monk’s ki. The standard monk has several abilities that count as ki powers, such as wholeness of body, abundant step, and empty body. A qinggong monk can learn additional ki powers, which often replaces a non-ki monk ability such as purity of body. Ki powers are divided into three categories: feats, monk abilities, and spells.
Note "This replaces the monk class ability the monk gives up for this ki power."
That seems to suggest the multiple nature of the ability, while being singular.
One could argue that even in line with the rules for Alternate Class Abilities, it's simply pointing out that a qinggong can't have both the ki power and monk ability - the player must choose one or the other. (As per 1,2,3)
In context, that does seem to suggest that the qinggong is able to choose at the appropriate level to swap, as desired.
The second paragraph continues this line of thought, pointing out that a qinggong can replace non-ki with ki.
It is a fairly convincing argument.
I still think there's room for ambiguity, but you make a good case. Again, I wish they'd make some sort of clarification - if this is meant to be a somewhat unique (as far as I know) archetype (basically turning a set class into an ala carte one), then I'd want to see the writer's intent.
I do find it interesting that we haven't heard anything from the powers that be yet.
Also forgot to mention, the layout and format of the qinggong monk entry further reinforces the single ability idea.
Magicdealer wrote: I do find it interesting that we haven't heard anything from the powers that be yet.
Also forgot to mention, the layout and format of the qinggong monk entry further reinforces the single ability idea.
They're kind of busy at GenCon..
Xaaon of Korvosa wrote: Magicdealer wrote: I do find it interesting that we haven't heard anything from the powers that be yet.
Also forgot to mention, the layout and format of the qinggong monk entry further reinforces the single ability idea.
They're kind of busy at GenCon.. The forums will play when the devs are away.
*cough*
Anyway, I've been thinking some more on this and I think I may be able to articulate where the disconnect is.
As I see it, it basically comes down to whether the standard monk abilities are dropped the second qinggong is chosen (to be later replaced by ki powers as desired) or that the qinggong retains all standard monk abilities until the option to individually replaced is made.
In the former case, then the wording on the qinggong is horribly murky, but it does seem to comply better with existing examples.
In the latter, then this is fully intended to be an exception to how those other examples work, but it isn't plainly said. This is a paradigm shift in how archetypes are viewed and potentially used (replace standard abilities with ala cart purchasing, while still retaining the ability to mostly mimic a standard). And again, cool but because of this, it needs to be explicitly stated.
I remember how underwhelmed I (and many others were) with the 3.0 ranger and how happy I was when AEG released the Mercenary Ranger class which provided a slight increase in power and ala cart purchasing. I feel the same way towards the monk - I'd love for the 2nd case to be true but hey, if they wanted it to be the 1st, so be it. I may end up house ruling it away.
However, I think they need to clarify it.
I don't participate in the PFS - is the qinggong legal for society play?
enrious wrote: Xaaon of Korvosa wrote: Magicdealer wrote: I do find it interesting that we haven't heard anything from the powers that be yet.
Also forgot to mention, the layout and format of the qinggong monk entry further reinforces the single ability idea.
They're kind of busy at GenCon.. The forums will play when the devs are away.
*cough*
Anyway, I've been thinking some more on this and I think I may be able to articulate where the disconnect is.
As I see it, it basically comes down to whether the standard monk abilities are dropped the second qinggong is chosen (to be later replaced by ki powers as desired) or that the qinggong retains all standard monk abilities until the option to individually replaced is made.
In the former case, then the wording on the qinggong is horribly murky, but it does seem to comply better with existing examples.
In the latter, then this is fully intended to be an exception to how those other examples work, but it isn't plainly said. This is a paradigm shift in how archetypes are viewed and potentially used (replace standard abilities with ala cart purchasing, while still retaining the ability to mostly mimic a standard). And again, cool but because of this, it needs to be explicitly stated.
I remember how underwhelmed I (and many others were) with the 3.0 ranger and how happy I was when AEG released the Mercenary Ranger class which provided a slight increase in power and ala cart purchasing. I feel the same way towards the monk - I'd love for the 2nd case to be true but hey, if they wanted it to be the 1st, so be it. I may end up house ruling it away.
However, I think they need to clarify it.
I don't participate in the PFS - is the qinggong legal for society play? Yes, they are legal for PFS. And I do believe it needs to be clarified; especially for PFS.
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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
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Xaaon of Korvosa wrote:
Yes, they are legal for PFS. And I do believe it needs to be clarified; especially for PFS.
Well, 25 of us have thus far marked it for FAQ, hopefully it will be.
Thread necromancy just to insult seeker? Bad form!
Solkanis wrote: A bunch of stuff Flagged for personal (and completely unnecessary) attack.
What is the purpose of practicing first grade thread necromancy to bump on someone that already changed his mind months ago ?
Is there a statue of limitations for flaming? We should probably get the word out... ;)
Necroing this thread to link to and quote the FAQ on this from 5/23/13. This thread is the third hit when googling "Qinggong monk", so I figure it needs the reference.
Monk: Can a qinggong monk take a second archetype if the character doesn't swap out abilities the second archetype requires?
Yes. However, the other archetype takes priority over the various abilities granted at each level, and the character can't delay taking an ability that the other archetype replaces—he must allow the second archetype to replace the standard ability at the standard class level.
For example, the monk of the healing hand archetype (APG) replaces
wholeness of body (7th level)
diamond body (11th level)
quivering palm (15th level)
perfect self (20th level).
A qinggong monk who also wants to take the monk of the healing hand archetype has to let the healing hand archetype replace all four of those abilities at those specific class levels. The qinggong monk is still free to replace any standard monk abilities at the other class levels listed in the qinggong monk archetype (slow fall at 4th, high jump at 5th, and so on), so long as selecting those abilities doesn't interfere with acquiring the healing hand abilities at the correct levels.
Note that if the second archetype replaces a standard monk ability, the character cannot select that replaced ability at a later monk level. For example, the qinggong/healing hand monk can never select wholeness of body, even at a level higher than 7th. In effect, the character has selected wholeness of body at 7th and immediately replaced it with a healing hand ability; as the qinggong archetype only lets you select an ability later if the character "selects a different ki power in place of a standard monk ability" (which didn't occur), that option is not available for the character.
It's worth noting that the "Does not need a response" on the FAQ tag at the beginning is now inaccurate - it should be "Has response in FAQ" or however it's phrased.
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