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Can someone with the Snap Shot line of feats from UC make as many AoOs as they can (say from Combat Reflexes)?
The real question here is whether can you use free actions after you've used up your "turn". Once it goes to the next person in the initiative order, can you still draw arrows from a quiver?
If you can, then you can make as many AoOs as combat reflexes allows.
If not, you can make only one AoO with Snap Shot in a given round.
Please FAQ this, as the PRD is unclear.
Relevant quotes from the PRD:
When the rules refer to a “full round”, they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
Immediate Action: An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn.
Note that Immediate Action lists that you can do it out of your turn. Free action does not. Drawing an arrow is a free action.
Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.
Perhaps when you've used up all your normal actions (standard, move, and swift), you are treated as doing the "Not an Action" action, as weird as that sounds. This would mean you could do free actions.
Speaking mentions that you can do it out of turn.
My personal opinion is that you aren't just standing still when you've used up all your limited actions. Hence the first quote in the above post. You are still acting until it's your turn in the initiative order again, so it is logical that you can use as many free actions as you want, even when it is not your "turn". That is, even when someone else is actively describing what they are doing in their 6 seconds of fame.
Additionally, the feat Snap Shot has this text:
You can make attacks of opportunity with
that ranged weapon.
I feel that if it was intended to make only one AoO per round, they would've specifically mentioned that, rather than saying you can make AoOs with that ranged weapon.
I was kinda wondering about this myself
Might want to FAQ it, not favorite it? :)
From what I understand of free actions, they only happen during your turn. Purly by the RAW, and presuming Snap Shot works with any range weapon, your not getting multi-able range AoO unless your using a firearm, repeating crossbow or something else with a 'clip'.
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Related issues being that if Drawing an Arrow as Free Action isn`t allowed out-of-turn, is Drawing a bunch before the end of your turn, and holding them under your thumb allowed?
Zen Archer has an ability which MAY suggest making multiple Archery AoO`s, thought it may just indicate that COmbat Reflexes is allowing multiple AoO`s in general, i.e. you could take UAS AoO`s after your single nocked arrow AoO.
Free Actions out of turn also come up with Bestiary Abilities like Trip and Grab, which use Free Actions to take the free maneuver... i.e. apparently impeding use of those abilities as AoO`s. Rock Catching is ever crazier, since it inherently would almost always used off-turn (in reaction to another creature`s attack), and also uses a Free Action. The only scenario that would seem to let it function per RAW (with Free Actions not occuring off-turn), would be when an enemy Readies an Action to Throw Rocks and this triggers during the Rock Catcher`s turn... Pretty rare occurance, obviously.
It`s pretty clear that Free Actions shouldn`t GENERALLY work off-turn, since they include stuff like Dropping Prone.
It`s pretty clear that Free Actions shouldn`t GENERALLY work off-turn, since they include stuff like Dropping Prone.
Agree with all of the above assessments by Quandary and this in particular.
I haven't been keeping up with UC, so what is Snap Shot's wording? if I may ask.
I think Rock Catching, which I've never seen before now, is a pretty strong argument for the idea that Free Actions can be used "out of turn". Even dropping prone might be fine out of turn.
HOWEVER,
Deflect Arrows mentions this: "Attempting to deflect a ranged attack doesn't count as an action. " If Free Actions can be used out of turn, then this text is useless.
It`s pretty clear that Free Actions shouldn`t GENERALLY work off-turn, since they include stuff like Dropping Prone.Agree with all of the above assessments by Quandary and this in particular.
I haven't been keeping up with UC, so what is Snap Shot's wording? if I may ask.
generally not supposed to paste whole sections of text, but I feel it's important here:
While wielding a ranged weapon with which
you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5
feet of you. You can make attacks of opportunity with
that ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of
opportunity when making a ranged attack as an attack
of opportunity.
Improved Snap Shot increases the threatened range by 10.
Seeing as free actions can be taken with other actions, I'm thinking you can load your bow as part of the action to fire it (such as when making an attack of opportunity).
In other words, snap shot and zen archer works.
That's the easiest and most sensible interpretation.
Seeing as free actions can be taken with other actions, I'm thinking you can load your bow as part of the action to fire it (such as when making an attack of opportunity).
In other words, snap shot and zen archer works.
That's the easiest and most sensible interpretation.
...well that's certainly an elegant response. Hadn't thought about it.
And it sounds 100% correct.
Still leaves the overall question of Free Actions and out-of-turnness.
I think the problems 'free action' is a bad term, like 'attack action', and is confusing. Basicly, what I am thinking is there is two different kind of 'free actions'. Ones that work with other actions (I.e. Trip quality) and ones that are independent actions (quick drawing, drawing ammo)'
Seeing as free actions can be taken with other actions, I'm thinking you can load your bow as part of the action to fire it (such as when making an attack of opportunity).
In other words, snap shot and zen archer works.
That's the easiest and most sensible interpretation.
Except that it doesn't seem quite right to me.
You are not taking an action when you get an AOO, but rather you are simply making an attack.
You could not elect to quickdraw another weapon during this attack, so technically you could not draw another arrow either.
That said, given the intent of the feat and alternate class ability, it seems a viable fix and addition to the feat and ability to allow them to do so.
But as it stands 'it does not work'.
-James
I believe that if making an AoO was not an action, the Not an Action action would've mentioned that, since it's far more prevalent than "nocking an arrow".
It seems most logical for attacks of opportunity to be attack actions.
I believe that if making an AoO was not an action, the Not an Action action would've mentioned that, since it's far more prevalent than "nocking an arrow".It seems most logical for attacks of opportunity to be attack actions.
But if Attack of opportunities are attack actions, can you Vital Strike them?
It would make every AoO build want Vital Strike if AoO are Attack actions.
I believe that if making an AoO was not an action, the Not an Action action would've mentioned that, since it's far more prevalent than "nocking an arrow".It seems most logical for attacks of opportunity to be attack actions.
But if Attack of opportunities are attack actions, can you Vital Strike them?
It would make every AoO build want Vital Strike if AoO are Attack actions.
Interpreting "attack actions" as actions that are attacks was my interpretation too before the developers gave us their "clarifications" and muddied up the matter. :/
Interpreting "attack actions" as actions that are attacks was my interpretation too before the developers gave us their "clarifications" and muddied up the matter. :/
I believe that if making an AoO was not an action, the Not an Action action would've mentioned that, since it's far more prevalent than "nocking an arrow".It seems most logical for attacks of opportunity to be attack actions.
But if Attack of opportunities are attack actions, can you Vital Strike them?
It would make every AoO build want Vital Strike if AoO are Attack actions.
where did they muddle it up? Maybe that will answer our question..
where did they muddle it up? Maybe that will answer our question..
According to ONE dev in an UNOFFICIAL forum post, an "attack action" is an attack that is also a standard action.
If it isn't a standard action, then it isn't an "attack action."
There is no definition for the "term" anywhere in the rules to justify such an interpretation. They point to the combat actions table in the combat chapter as justification for their interpretation. Tables don't define terms, however. If I followed similar interpretations for other entries on the table, the game would fall apart.
If they had written it themselves I might believe them, but since it was pulled over from v3.5 D&D where there wasn't such a ridiculous and confusing term, I think what they say in this regard is ridiculous garbage.
Rather than admit they made a mistake by creating a confusing and undefined new term, they cover it up with all sorts of errata/FAQ workarounds (rewording vital strike, changing spring attack to a full round action, etc.) while claiming it was their intent all along.
/rant
(Sorry. It's one of my pet peeves.)
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As much as I don't like this feat, I must point out that in order to get multiple AoO, you must have combat reflexes (or some equivalent class featue). If you have spent two or three feats on combat reflexes, snap shot and improved snap shot - I think it is reasonable to include the free action to nock a new arrow as part of the attack.
As much as I don't like this feat, I must point out that in order to get multiple AoO, you must have combat reflexes (or some equivalent class featue). If you have spent two or three feats on combat reflexes, snap shot and improved snap shot - I think it is reasonable to include the free action to nock a new arrow as part of the attack.
It's more like 9 feats if you are not a Zen archer.
9 feats then yes yes you can (I for some reason thought drawing was part of the bow attack). Though of course RAW has no answer.
Free actions, not-an-actions, and attacks-of-opportunity may all be considered different things with their own definitions of what they allow, and when.
Free actions occur on your turn, not-an-action events occur within other actions or events, and attacks-of-opportunity occur not on your turn subject to the AoO rules.
Are AoOs actions? I find it absurd to say they aren't. But if there is specifically something that says they aren't even Not an Action, then I will concede that you can't use a free action to draw and arrow. You can always use a free action as part of another action.
Free actions, not-an-actions, and attacks-of-opportunity may all be considered different things with their own definitions of what they allow, and when.
Free actions occur on your turn, not-an-action events occur within other actions or events, and attacks-of-opportunity occur not on your turn subject to the AoO rules.
I like my interpretation better. Easier to follow, makes more sense, let's fun things work.
The last bit is how you KNOW the Paizo developers will step in and change it.
J/K. :P
Also wanted to point out that free actions don't always have to occur on your turn. Talking, for example, is a free action that can be done anytime, even when it isn't your turn.
Free actions can be also be done any time you do anything else. Says so right in the rules. If I'm firing my bow, I get to load it all at once.
Otherwise, none of the things that we KNOW WORK (such as zen archer or snap shot) simply DON'T WORK as written.
So you have your interpretation, which kills fun, makes game designers look like idiots, and leaves you with a bunch of mechanics that don't work as written. Alternatively, you have my interpretation which doesn't come with any of that baggage whatsoever. It just works, and is fun, like it was always meant to be.
I can't believe this is even being debated. It's like people want the Devs to step in and break things with more "clarifications."
Are AoOs actions? I find it absurd to say they aren't. But if there is specifically something that says they aren't even Not an Action, then I will concede that you can't use a free action to draw and arrow. You can always use a free action as part of another action.
Actually AoOs are neither Actions nor are they Not Actions. Let me explain.
Please refer to this link: Actions in Combat Table
As you can see AoOs are not listed as either Actions or Not Actions.
I agree with James' assertion that drawing ammunition would not be allowed outside of your turn, as you could not do other free actions (quickdraw, prone, drop an item, etc).
It seems it needs a more refined wording to be viable.
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I can't believe this is even being debated. It's like people want the Devs to step in and break things with more "clarifications."
This really cuts to the heart of the matter. A feat exists to allow for multiple attacks of opportunity in a round. Another feat enables one to make these attacks with a bow at 5ft, and yet another extends the range these attacks may be taken at.
Don't parse every paragraph on the various actions for your answer, step back, consider the whole instead of the individual parts, and let your guiding principle be the rules as intended.
It should be abundantly clear that the intended path was for an archer to be able to shoot arrows via their bow with their AoO's for targets in range. Drawing of arrows was very likely not considered as many simply assumed it would happen and didn't think to address it directly.
At worst, mark if for an FAQ and then roll with the above unless a contradictory FAQ answer is released.
If you can look at the above and then make an honest argument that the archer can't draw arrows for the AoO's when it isn't their turn, I'll give it thought but I'll be hard-pressed to not think there is some subversion at work.
I like my interpretation better. Easier to follow, makes more sense, let's fun things work.
The last bit is how you KNOW the Paizo developers will step in and change it.
J/K. :P
Also wanted to point out that free actions don't always have to occur on your turn. Talking, for example, is a free action that can be done anytime, even when it isn't your turn.
Free actions can be also be done any time you do anything else. Says so right in the rules. If I'm firing my bow, I get to load it all at once.
Sorry RD, I lost your original interpretation among some of the noise that followed. I was under the impression that nocking an arrow was listed as not-an-action, and so would allow ranged AoO's with the proper feats. (Haven't seen Snap Shot, so at a total loss here).
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Actually AoOs are neither Actions nor are they Not Actions. Let me explain.Please refer to this link: Actions in Combat Table
As you can see AoOs are not listed as either Actions or Not Actions.
I agree with James' assertion that drawing ammunition would not be allowed outside of your turn, as you could not do other free actions (quickdraw, prone, drop an item, etc).
It seems it needs a more refined wording to be viable.
Drawing ammunition doesn't appear to be the equivalent to the 'other free actions' that you listed because:
Not an Action
Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.
Drawing ammunition doesn't appear to be the equivalent to the 'other free actions' that you listed because:
Regardless your personal feelings of the scope/validity of the free action, drawing ammunition is still a "free action" and it is certainly not "not an action".
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Ok fine. To illustrate the current absurdity and craziness of the free action rule, here is a 100% RAW way to get all the AoOs you want up to your limit.
You simply say "Firing!". Now you have a free action that can undoubtedly be done. Since free actions can be a part of other actions, while you are saying that, you draw your arrow.
Bam. All you need to do is say something, maybe even grunt a lil', and you can draw your arrow.
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Regardless your personal feelings of the scope/validity of the free action, drawing ammunition is still a "free action" and it is certainly not "not an action".Drawing ammunition doesn't appear to be the equivalent to the 'other free actions' that you listed because:
The only problem with that is that it makes several feats completely useless, I would assume that if the feats are included in the system that they would be useable... I mean why would they release feats in a new book that were useless because of the base rules?
Not an Action
Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.
Just wanted to stress this point in the RAW. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR FINDING IT AND POINTING IT OUT. I knew it wasn't as insane as these people were making it out to be.
Ok fine. To illustrate the current absurdity and craziness of the free action rule, here is a 100% RAW way to get all the AoOs you want up to your limit.
You simply say "Firing!". Now you have a free action that can undoubtedly be done. Since free actions can be a part of other actions, while you are saying that, you draw your arrow.
Bam. All you need to do is say something, maybe even grunt a lil', and you can draw your arrow.
LOL! HAHAHAHA! That's AWESOME! I wish I had thought of that! Talking is a free action which can be done even if it isn't your turn. Talking is indisputably "an action." You can take any free action along with another action. Loading an arrow is (debatebly) a free action.
So, yes, your trick works by RAW.
Nocking an arrow just means setting it against a string, not drawing it. And the rules mention that drawing an arrow is a free action.
Although to be honest, I am not sure what other people are arguing.
Nocking an arrow just means setting it against a string, not drawing it. And the rules mention that drawing an arrow is a free action.
Although to be honest, I am not sure what other people are arguing.
In short, they are arguing that you cannot draw and knock an arrow when it isn't your turn, which totally invalidates the existence of Snap Shot and certain Zen Archer abilities (which is why I think it's a ridiculous interpretation).
Although to be honest, I am not sure what other people are arguing.In short, they are arguing that you cannot draw and knock an arrow when it isn't your turn, which totally invalidates the existence of Snap Shot and certain Zen Archer abilities (which is why I think it's a ridiculous interpretation).
This is correct. We are seeking clarification. The nocking of the arrow is not the problem, it is the drawing of the ammunition.
This implies you can utilize free actions outside of your turn (and not just immediate actions).
Why can you speak (which is a free action) when it is not your turn?
Speak
In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn. Speaking more than a few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.
Speaking is the exception, as noted in the rules.
If you CAN use free actions (such as drawing ammunition - which has no special clause to allow it) then you can do a number of things that are free actions outside your turn.
Archer taking aim at you? Prone as a free action.
Sorcerer casting Shocking Grasp on you (they get a +3 on the attack roll if you hold a metal weapon)? Drop it as a free action.
Someone moving through your threatened area? Draw a weapon as a free action (quick draw).
These things become possible without further clarfication text.
You do realize that attacking is an action so why can't i (during my action as stated for free actions) draw an arrow and fire.
Is there any reason at all why drawing an arrow needs to be a free action rather than a non-action?
Yes. Because you can use an arrow as an improvised weapon. Therefore, all archers will be able to make a melee AoO at all times.
You do realize that attacking is an action so why can't i (during my action as stated for free actions) draw an arrow and fire
Making an attack is a standard/full round action, thus you can:
Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), darts (for blowguns), or sling bullets (for slings and halfling sling staves). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action [which is fine, but you can't use free actions outside your turn without exceptions]; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading (as noted in their descriptions).
Making an AoO is unclassified. Thus you may not use a free action with an AoO since it is neither an "action" nor "not an action".
It's just a few words that Paizo has to address, but these make all the difference when implementing their rule sets.
IMO, this resulted because Paizo went forward with Ranged AoOs and the Core Rules were not built to encompass them (originally).
Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don’t have to make an attack of opportunity if you don’t want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you’ve already attacked in the round.An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked
in the midst of a character’s turn).
Standard Actions
Most of the common actions characters take, aside from movement, fall into the realm of standard actions.
Attack
Making an attack is a standard action.
Melee Attacks: With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.) Some melee weapons have reach, as indicated in their descriptions. With a typical reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can’t strike adjacent foes (those within 5 feet).
Seems to me a AoO is a Standard Action that by the rules is taken during someone elses turn.
Seems to me a AoO is a Standard Action that by the rules is taken during someone elses turn.
While an interesting interpretation, if you refer to the link I posted a few posts back (The Actions In Combat Table), you'll see that your theory is not supported in the rules. In the table it clearly lays out a description of the desired Action and what kind of "Action" it is in the Pathfinder rules.
Attack of Opportunity is not on this table - thus it is neither an "Action" nor "not an Action" per the rules.
Furthermore, it can't be Standard Action you take on someone else's turn, as you cannot use a Standard Action on someone else's turn... nor can you take more than one Standard Action in a turn (Combat Reflexes alone would cause quite a bit of rules-rewriting under your interpretation).
Okay,I think Snap Shot broke more than loading your bow with an arrow as a free action.
The rules text quoted above says that you threaten with your bow. Does that mean that you can now also flank with a bow?
And I think it just broke the Gang Up feat. Again.
Not really. Flanking is specifically for melee attacks. Since you don't have any feats or abilities that state you can flank with ranged weapons, you can't.
Seems to me a AoO is a Standard Action that by the rules is taken during someone elses turn.While an interesting interpretation, if you refer to the link I posted a few posts back (The Actions In Combat Table), you'll see that your theory is not supported in the rules. In the table it clearly lays out a description of the desired Action and what kind of "Action" it is in the Pathfinder rules.
Attack of Opportunity is not on this table - thus it is neither an "Action" nor "not an Action"
It could be one or the other, or something else entirely.
It is undefined. That's why there is confusion.
It seems clear to me that you CANNOT draw ammo when it isn't your turn. Zen Archer and Snap Shot are exceptions to that rule.
If they aren't, then that's the only clarification needed.
That way, nobody can "break the game" (*laughs*) in the manner described a few posts above AND none of the intended combos get flushed down the toilet.
Seems to me a AoO is a Standard Action that by the rules is taken during someone elses turn.While an interesting interpretation, if you refer to the link I posted a few posts back (The Actions In Combat Table), you'll see that your theory is not supported in the rules. In the table it clearly lays out a description of the desired Action and what kind of "Action" it is in the Pathfinder rules.
Attack of Opportunity is not on this table - thus it is neither an "Action" nor "not an Action" per the rules.
Furthermore, it can't be Standard Action you take on someone else's turn, as you cannot use a Standard Action on someone else's turn... nor can you take more than one Standard Action in a turn (Combat Reflexes alone would cause quite a bit of rules-rewriting under your interpretation).
Feather fall is the only Immediate action in the game?
Quickened spells are the only swift actions?By your logic since no other action is listed is must be true.
However first thing i see listed under standard action is Attack Melee
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Not really. Flanking is specifically for melee attacks. Since you don't have any feats or abilities that state you can flank with ranged weapons, you can't.Okay,I think Snap Shot broke more than loading your bow with an arrow as a free action.
The rules text quoted above says that you threaten with your bow. Does that mean that you can now also flank with a bow?
And I think it just broke the Gang Up feat. Again.
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus
if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character
or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.
So, an archer can now provide flanking, even if not adjacent using the Improved Snap Shot feat, but not gain flanking themselves?
Bogus.
At this point, it should be errataed/updated to say:
When making an attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus
if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character
or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.
Much simpler, and more in keeping with abilities that let ranged weapons threaten.
It seems clear to me that you CANNOT draw ammo when it isn't your turn. Zen Archer and Snap Shot are exceptions to that rule.
If they aren't, then that's the only clarification needed.
Agreed.
Feather fall is the only Immediate action in the game?
Quickened spells are the only swift actions?
By your logic since no other action is listed is must be true.However first thing i see listed under standard action is Attack Melee
Actually, I don't think I said that... Seeing as how there is a giant secion (on the table itself) dealing with Attack of Opportunites, it would not seem unreasonable for the developers to place it in a category if they so desired. They did not.
In fact, you'll notice that the Attack Of Opportunity Section (which is covered in the combat rules by the way), is not even listed in the same Actions In Combat super heading. It is its own small subheading set off from the rest.
With all of the examples you list the other abilities will say what kind of action they use (Arcane Strike --> Swift Action, in the rules text, Arcane Armor Mastery ---> Swift Action, in the rules text).
Attack of Opportunity makes no such distinction. However, I can assure you that it would not be a Standard Action even if it did have the proper rules descriptions.
So, an archer can now provide flanking, even if not adjacent using the Improved Snap Shot feat, but not gain flanking themselves?
Bogus.
IMO, this is not bogus. It is a limitation of a Ranged Weapon. Ranged Weapons =/= melee weapons.
Nope i am stating that is listed as a melee attack which is a standard action not that it is a open standard action to do what you like with.
It seems clear to me that you CANNOT draw ammo when it isn't your turn. Zen Archer and Snap Shot are exceptions to that rule.
If they aren't, then that's the only clarification needed.
Agreed.
Just to be clear and avoid misunderstanding, I mean to say that the only clarification needed is that Zen Archer and Snap Shot are indeed exceptions to the general rule.