Coup de Grace is a full-round action, so it would seem that, as long as everyone said in advance 'hey, let's all slit his throat/bash in his head', I don't see why not. Unless you're referring to the group each picking a separate individual in a camp, which would require a bit more coordination. Why gang up on a single individual with coup de grace, when the target has to make a save with a DC equal to the damage done just to survive?
Could multiple creatures time their attacks so they could all make a coup de grace on a sleeping foe?
Rules-as-written, no problem. Now as GM I might not allow eight characters to try and coup de grace a single foe simultaneous as there is only so much room and so many vital organs.
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Could multiple creatures time their attacks so they could all make a coup de grace on a sleeping foe?
Imagining a ring of attackers around a fallen foe, all stabbing, bashing, and stomping... It's not hard to visualize and certainly "doable" in my mind. Such an unfortunate foe would be extremely unlikely to survive the assault.
Just remember, it goes both ways. Hold Person and a ring of foes around the PC are the player's worst nightmare...
An argument against it depends on how the foe is helpless. If they're sleeped, for example, they're woken if attacked, so if they survive the first coup, they're awake and no longer helpless before the second lands. I don't play that way though, as it's counter common sense, for example, that the dark riders in Fellowship couldn't all bring their swords down on (what they thought was) a sleeping hobbit without the hobbit being able to take evasive action in the nanosecond between the stabs of rider #1 and rider #2.
If they got to get technical I'd do something like employ the ready action rule - not to do the whole coup (since you can't ready a full round action) - but rather to ready a "start a full round action" (core p186). Since that's a standard action and a coup is not a 'full attack, charge, run or withdraw' it would be readyable: Everyone *start* stabbing on the count of three. That way all coupers are in couping before the victim has a chance to wake up, and he'll be fully couped the following round.
1) Target must be helpless.
Given.
2) CdG is a full round action. It can be started in the surprise round, but then finishes the next round.
This can be gotten around by all the 'good' guys delaying until the first full round of combat while the victim snoozes.
3) Starting CdG might reasonably wake up target, rendering him no longer helpless.
Now, I'm starting to see the issue. First attack goes off and fails. Damaging a sleeping creature awakens it. Does it awaken before the second attacker can act. Hmmmm.
I might have to reverse myself and say that rules-as-written will cause this to fail because as soon as the victim is damaged he awakens. There are no specific rules for simultaneous actions.
However, there is a loophole that might save us. "A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy."
So, while he may not be sleeping any longer, I would still rule a coup de grace would be possible as the victim is helpless, because he is completely at the opponent's mercy.
Rules wise all the damage is tracked separately. Of course he still has to survive a few crits and massive fort saves so it may be a non-factor.
edit:If this is a sleeping opponent he will awake as soon as he is hit. I know in real life he may be disoriented, but the game does not account for that.
The delay action would seem to work for this.
Ninja death squad surprise round: each member delays until the lowest initiative count in the group. Each ninja uses the begin full round action partial action option (since they cant take the full round coup de grace)
Sleeping Beauty's turn passes
Ninja death squad members each use their standard action to complete the full round action and CDC sleeping beauty.
Rules wise, its silly, but...
From a HIGHLY literalistic rules technical standpoint that i DO not endorse, the problem might be argued that until sleeping beauty wakes up its still the surprise round, so you can't do a full round action in the surprise round, so you can't coup de grace someone until after the fight starts. (at which point they're no longer coup de gracable)
I feel dirty just for thinking that, but you don't want people using this to get a full round action as a surprise round.
The delay action would seem to work for this.
Ninja death squad surprise round: each member delays until the lowest initiative count in the group. Each ninja uses the begin full round action partial action option (since they cant take the full round coup de grace)
Sleeping Beauty's turn passes
Ninja death squad members each use their standard action to complete the full round action and CDC sleeping beauty.
Rules wise, its silly, but...
From a HIGHLY literalistic rules technical standpoint that i DO not endorse, the problem might be argued that until sleeping beauty wakes up its still the surprise round, so you can't do a full round action in the surprise round, so you can't coup de grace someone until after the fight starts. (at which point they're no longer coup de gracable)
I feel dirty just for thinking that, but you don't want people using this to get a full round action as a surprise round.
That is one of those cases where I ignore the rule because it works out to the same affect mechanically.
If I coup d grace someone I can start the action, and finish it with a move action. The person is sleep so even on round 1 they don't get to roll init because they are not aware of me. Even after they have been hit by me the other guys swords are also closing in from the surprise round, and they have not acted so they are still flat footed. I don't see them living long enough to roll anything. Even if they do they are prone and surrounded. It looks like a good time to surrender.
If I coup d grace someone I can start the action, and finish it with a move action.
It's a standard action to complete full-round action.
My players like to have one guy with the pick or scythe prepare to coup de gras, while the rest gather around and ready an action to attack if he survives.
Nothing has survived.
The Ninja Death Squad should take the Teamwork Feat -> Lookout
Your allies help you avoid being surprised.
Benefit: Whenever you are adjacent to an ally who also has this feat, you may act in the surprise round as long as your ally would normally be able to act in the surprise round. If you would normally be denied the ability to act in the surprise round, your initiative is equal to your initiative roll or the roll of your ally –1, whichever is lower. If both you and your ally would be able to act in the surprise round without the aid of this feat, you may take both a standard and a move action (or a full-round action) during the surprise round.
Given they are all able to act in the Surprise Round they all get full-round actions (Assuming their target fails its Perception roll vs their Stealth rolls)
Could multiple creatures time their attacks so they could all make a coup de grace on a sleeping foe?
During a combat - No.
CdG is a full round action, and thus does not qualify for the Ready an Action* Once the first CdG goes off, the victim is prone, probably flat footed, and bleeding from every orifice, but no longer helpless.
Out of combat, it could logically be done.
But really, there is no need.
"You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace."
As long as you are using a 3X crit weapon, and have a +2 damage bonus, you are looking at a DC 19 bare minimum. Most 1st level fighters with a two handed weapon could probably get an average DC of around 40 without even trying.
*SRD, "You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action."
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2) CdG is a full round action. It can be started in the surprise round, but then finishes the next round.This can be gotten around by all the 'good' guys delaying until the first full round of combat while the victim snoozes.
The surprise rules in PF are a bit on the light side, but I would tend to go with the idea that everyone delaying during the surprise round merely results in another surprise round.
The surprise rules in PF are a bit on the light side, but I would tend to go with the idea that everyone delaying during the surprise round merely results in another surprise round.
What if, instead of delaying, they just do nothing?
On the first real round they could delay to lowest init. Only difference is it gives the victim a chance to act. (Relevant if whatever is causing them to be helpless grants them a chance to break free)
"start a full round action" is a standard action, so can be readied. You finish the with another standard action on the following round. See core P186.
Start/Complete Full-Round Action
The “start full-round action” standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can't use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.
So, yea, you can do it in combat. It uses up two standard actions, and takes two rounds, but you can do it:
1) Each ninja uses a move action to get into position.
2) Each uses a standard action to ready a "start full round action" - the coup de gras - on a given signal.
3) Then 1,2,3 go. All the "starts" trigger, but the actions aren't completed until the following round, using another standard action.
The victim doesn't wake up because all of the coups are in progress before any damage gets delt that would wake him.
Makes intuative sense - effectivly you're using two standard actions to do what usually would normally cost the equivelent of a standard & a move (couping this way takes 2 standard actions over two rounds rather than one full round action in one), the extra lost time and action utility models the added effort of co-ordinating the attack.
If I coup d grace someone I can start the action, and finish it with a move action.It's a standard action to complete full-round action.
My players like to have one guy with the pick or scythe prepare to coup de gras, while the rest gather around and ready an action to attack if he survives.
Nothing has survived.
True, but the victim is still in the same situation. On the ground and barring very bad rolls, in a bad situation.
CdG is a full round action, and thus does not qualify for the Ready an Action[.]
Don't forget that you can ready "Start/Complete Full-Round Action" with the full-round action being "Coup de Grace."
My party did this to a sleeping dragon once. We rescued a bunch of it's slaves, surrounded it, and stabbed the crap out of it with a combined "group coup de grace."
The victim doesn't wake up because all of the coups are in progress before any damage gets delt that would wake him.
This leads me to the question when does the victim need to be helpless. At the start of the coup de grace, at all times during the coup de grace, when you finish the coup de grace.
This might not come up too regularly but if you have an invisible victim coup de grace takes two rounds normally.
Scenario 1: Sleeping victim, you start to coup de grace. Noise wakes victim. Can you finish on your next round?
Scenario 2: Sleeping victim, you start to coup de grace. Noise wakes victim. Ally knocks victim unconscious. Can you finish on your next round or do you have to start over?
Does the victim when awoken get to make an attack of opportunity because a coup de grace provokes?
Discuss.
My party did this to a sleeping dragon once. We rescued a bunch of it's slaves, surrounded it, and stabbed the crap out of it with a combined "group coup de grace."
Isn't that just a "group de grace." :-P
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The surprise rules in PF are a bit on the light side, but I would tend to go with the idea that everyone delaying during the surprise round merely results in another surprise round.What if, instead of delaying, they just do nothing?
On the first real round they could delay to lowest init. Only difference is it gives the victim a chance to act. (Relevant if whatever is causing them to be helpless grants them a chance to break free)
The OP posited a sleeping target. If he just remains sleeping, the first round that the attackers act, in such a manner that the target becomes aware, will be the surprise round.
If they want to wake up target, then all delay, that's fine. They've abandoned surprise. They have also removed the helpless condition.
Tim has talked about helpless including being at someone's mercy. I don't see that coming into effect as presented. The target must be helpless, not merely royally screwed. :)
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The situation was this; the party were in combat with a solo opponent and the Hexcrafter Magus used Slumber to knock her out, the party then took time to heal and surround the sleeping foe, then all coup de grace the target. First of all, was this legal, RAW? Second what would you other GMs have said anyways, and why?
Now, as it happened the first CDG would have been sufficient, but I could see times where with a foe that has a crazy high Fort might shrug off the CDG.
The situation was this; the party were in combat with a solo opponent and the Hexcrafter Magus used Slumber to knock her out, the party then took time to heal and surround the sleeping foe, then all coup de grace the target. First of all, was this legal, RAW? Second what would you other GMs have said anyways, and why?
Now, as it happened the first CDG would have been sufficient, but I could see times where with a foe that has a crazy high Fort might shrug off the CDG.
By RAW the attack should have been resolved individually.
The first one hits. check for hp damage. If the creature is alive do the fort save. If the creature survives a fort save then it wakes up. It is prone so it has a -4 to AC, but it is not helpless. I would redo initiatives so that those surrounding her were going back to back. After everyone else got their full round worth of actions in then let her go at the bottom of that round, or the top of the next round.
The victim doesn't wake up because all of the coups are in progress before any damage gets delt that would wake him.
This leads me to the question when does the victim need to be helpless. At the start of the coup de grace, at all times during the coup de grace, when you finish the coup de grace.
This might not come up too regularly but if you have an invisible victim coup de grace takes two rounds normally.
Scenario 1: Sleeping victim, you start to coup de grace. Noise wakes victim. Can you finish on your next round?
Scenario 2: Sleeping victim, you start to coup de grace. Noise wakes victim. Ally knocks victim unconscious. Can you finish on your next round or do you have to start over?
Does the victim when awoken get to make an attack of opportunity because a coup de grace provokes?
Discuss.
This gets to the heart of why it probably isn't OK by RAW. The victim has to be helpless during the entirety of the coup de grace action. For comparison consider a spell like reduce person. If you want to reduce person the enemy fighter and debuff him, then he has to be within close range when you start and finish casting. Otherwise the spell doesn't happen.
You can START a coup de grace action with the enemy helpless, but if, during that action, somebody else wakes up the enemy, they are no longer helpless and so you cannot FINISH the coup de grace action. You can still use the standard you were going to use to finish the action to attack instead, but you can't all coup de grace.
You have 2 actions: Start coup de grace and Finish coup de grace. The victim must be helpless for both.
In Scenario 1, you lose the coup de grace.
In Scenario 2, you can finish it.
Coup de grace never provokes from its target because the target must be helpless. If they aren't helpless, you can't coup de grace, so you can't provoke. If someone else started threatening you between the first and second action, I'd say the second action provokes from them, though.
The situation was this; the party were in combat with a solo opponent and the Hexcrafter Magus used Slumber to knock her out, the party then took time to heal and surround the sleeping foe, then all coup de grace the target. First of all, was this legal, RAW? Second what would you other GMs have said anyways, and why?
First player to act performs a coup de gras. If the foe survives, he's awake, and no longer eligible for more coup de gras. Rest of party acts normally.
I would redo initiatives so that those surrounding her were going back to back. After everyone else got their full round worth of actions in then let her go at the bottom of that round, or the top of the next round.
Init should be rolled before the surprise round.
How I would rule the hypothetical sleeping surprise round example:
Party ambushes sleeping Orc:
1) Orc fails perception check to hear party.
2) Everyone rolls init. (Jeff 16, Bob 9, Orc 7, Mutt 2)
3) Surprise round: Party gets standard action.
4) In order of init, each party member Readies a "start full-round action" to coup de gras, triggered by Jeff whispering "Go!"
5) Jeff whispers "Go!" after all members have readied
6) Each members Readied action triggers, in order of init (all triggered from same event, so highest init goes first)
7) As each member's action triggers, their init changes (Orc 7, Jeff 1a, Bob 1b, Mutt 1c)
7) First regular round begins
8) Orc fails perception check to hear party (sound sleeper)
9) Jeff completes his action and performs coup de gras. Orc survives! Orc makes fort save! (Nat 20!) Orc is awake!
10) Every other party member acts normally, in order of init. They cannot complete the full round action because Orc is no longer helpless. They can use their actions to do whatever, perhaps attack the prone, bleeding, snoozy Orc.
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The situation was this; the party were in combat with a solo opponent and the Hexcrafter Magus used Slumber to knock her out, the party then took time to heal and surround the sleeping foe, then all coup de grace the target. First of all, was this legal, RAW? Second what would you other GMs have said anyways, and why?
Now, as it happened the first CDG would have been sufficient, but I could see times where with a foe that has a crazy high Fort might shrug off the CDG.
By RAW the attack should have been resolved individually.
The first one hits. check for hp damage. If the creature is alive do the fort save. If the creature survives a fort save then it wakes up. It is prone so it has a -4 to AC, but it is not helpless. I would redo initiatives so that those surrounding her were going back to back. After everyone else got their full round worth of actions in then let her go at the bottom of that round, or the top of the next round.
Also, barring uncanny dodge or the improved version, the target is also flat-footed as it has not acted in the round yet.
Personally, as DM fiat, I rule that an awakening character, monster, NPC, is Staggered the first round it awakens to get the cobwebs out. I have never seen anyone be instantaneously combat ready upon awakening, even with artillery and machine guns going off. There is always that momentary "WTF is happening" interlude.
Init should be rolled before the surprise round.
Another rule learned today. The witch may have escaped then if she could have won initiative.