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Hey everyone,
The wording for concentration checks says that "when you make a concentration check, you roll d20 and add your caster level and the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type." Does this count, per RAW, as an 'ability check' (and as such is able to be improved by, say, luckstones or pale green prism ioun stones)?
Thanks!
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Hey everyone,
The wording for concentration checks says that "when you make a concentration check, you roll d20 and add your caster level and the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type." Does this count, per RAW, as an 'ability check' (and as such is able to be improved by, say, luckstones or pale green prism ioun stones)?
Thanks!
My guess is no, as it inherently involves things other than the ability, and the specific ability used will vary by the caster. That strikes me as different.
However, I can't seem to find anything explicitly stating anything one way or the other.
EDIT: On the other hand, saying that Concentration checks are not ability checks would mean that they're unaffected by being shaken/frightened or other things that can affect your ability checks. And that would seem weird. So I don't know, sorry. :P
I would not consider it an ability check either. Ability checks in my mind are d20 + ability modifier. Concentration checks are d20 + caster level + ability modifier. The addition of the caster level to the roll makes it not an ability check in my mind (any more than a saving throw or attack roll would be, both of which grant bonuses for high ability scores). /salute!
As GM, I might be inclined to give it to them, but the rules-as-written, while not explicit, seem to say no.
I note in particular, the section on take 10 and take 20, clearly state that you can take 10 and take 20 for ability checks, you can't for concentration checks or caster level checks.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I note in particular, the section on take 10 and take 20, clearly state that you can take 10 and take 20 for ability checks, you can't for concentration checks or caster level checks.
But might that be due to the fact that concentration checks come up in the types of situations where you can't take 10 anyway, rather than because of an inherent difference between ability checks and concentration checks?
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Hey everyone,
The wording for concentration checks says that "when you make a concentration check, you roll d20 and add your caster level and the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type." Does this count, per RAW, as an 'ability check' (and as such is able to be improved by, say, luckstones or pale green prism ioun stones)?
Thanks!
A concentration check is not an ability check. Ability checks are very specific (and rarely used) instances when no specific skill, feat, or ability quite fits the bill. However, concentration *is* modified by the caster's key ability score, which means any magical enhancement to that score would be included in the check.
An ability check is exactly that, a d20 check utilizing one of your 6 abilities for a specific task. *Most* skill checks are elaborated upon via skills, so "simple ability checks" are quite uncommon. The only consistant exception is the Strength check to break bonds or smash down doors.
I note in particular, the section on take 10 and take 20, clearly state that you can take 10 and take 20 for ability checks, you can't for concentration checks or caster level checks.But might that be due to the fact that concentration checks come up in the types of situations where you can't take 10 anyway, rather than because of an inherent difference between ability checks and concentration checks?
True, but why mention that if that isn't a change from how take 10 and take 20 are normally handled. Also, if concentration and caster level checks were considered abilities checks why didn't they write it as "ability checks except concentration and caster level checks."
I'm not saying this is proof by any means only that this passage implies they were considered different.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I note in particular, the section on take 10 and take 20, clearly state that you can take 10 and take 20 for ability checks, you can't for concentration checks or caster level checks.But might that be due to the fact that concentration checks come up in the types of situations where you can't take 10 anyway, rather than because of an inherent difference between ability checks and concentration checks?True, but why mention that if that isn't a change from how take 10 and take 20 are normally handled. Also, if concentration and caster level checks were considered abilities checks why didn't they write it as "ability checks except concentration and caster level checks."
I'm not saying this is proof by any means only that this passage implies they were considered different.
Ah, upon closer examination I misunderstood part of your post. I see what you mean now - it does make it sound like they're separate from both skill checks and ability checks.
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Hey everyone,
The wording for concentration checks says that "when you make a concentration check, you roll d20 and add your caster level and the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type." Does this count, per RAW, as an 'ability check' (and as such is able to be improved by, say, luckstones or pale green prism ioun stones)?
Thanks!
I think that it would count as a skill check. Which both of those do add to. (At least in my opinion).
Definitely an ability check. Sure it's got some variant modifiers, but just because your GM gives you a variant modifier (say a circumstance bonus, for example) doesn't mean your ability check is no longer an ability check.
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Ability checks are very common used at least once per combat.
Initiative is an ability check.Untrained skill checks are ability checks as well.
From the wording of Circlet of Persuasion all Charisma Based Checks. I am beginnning to think that all ability based checks are ability checks.
I agree on Initiative. I also agree on untrained skill checks, but only because I had to dig out the old D&D PHB to verify this. Pathfinder Core Rulebook is mum on the topic...
In fact, the Core Rulebook only mentions "ability checks" a few times. Under the Take 10 and Take 20 rules, for example. Also, under the Sickened condition, it reads:
Sickened: The character takes a –2 penalty on all attack
rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks,
and ability checks.
It specifically calls out "skill checks" and "ability checks" as two separate entities. As do the "Panicked," "Shaken," and "Frightened" conditions (as well as a number of spells and magic items).
In fact, nowhere is there a "rule" that defines "ability checks" and tells you how to make them. The book consistently implies that "ability checks" and "skill checks" are unique entities, but there's no "rule" about the former. The D&D PHB 3.5, however, does define Skill Checks and Ability Checks:
Skill Checks
To make a skill check, roll a d20 and add your character’s skill modifier. Compare the result to the Difficulty Class (DC) of the task at hand.An unopposed skill check’s success depends on your result compared to a DC set by the DM or the skill’s description (see Chapter 4).
An opposed skill check’s success depends on your result compared to the result of the character opposing your action. The opponent’s check might be made using the same skill or a different skill, as set forth in the skill’s description.
Ability Checks
Ability checks are used when a character doesn’t have any ranks in a skill and tries to use that skill untrained. (Some skills, however, can’t be used untrained.)Ability checks are also used to determine success when no skill applies.
To make an ability check, roll a d20 and add your character’s modifier for the appropriate ability.
However, I would still maintain that a "concentration check" is neither. It's just a "concentration check."
Definitely an ability check. Sure it's got some variant modifiers, but just because your GM gives you a variant modifier (say a circumstance bonus, for example) doesn't mean your ability check is no longer an ability check.
If you follow that to its logical conclusion, wouldn't any check modified by your ability score be an ability check? I should think that any check defined as something other than an ability check - such as an attack roll, a skill check, or a concentration check - must not be an ability check, even if it has some similarities to one.
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The problem with calling anything modified by an ability an 'ability check' is that suddenly attack rolls, damage rolls, etc. would fall under the same classification, barring specific exception (ie. 'a concentration check is an ability check'), which would make, say, a pale green ioun stone weird - granting a +1 bonus on attack rolls and ability checks would mean a +2 bonus on attack rolls if attack rolls were ability checks, which can't be intentional.
On the other hand, in 3.5 Concentration (as a skill) would be improved by a luckstone or similar implement - and it doesn't appear gamebreaking to designate a Concentration check as subject to the same things it did in 3.5.
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The problem with calling anything modified by an ability an 'ability check' is that suddenly attack rolls, damage rolls, etc. would fall under the same classification, barring specific exception (ie. 'a concentration check is an ability check'), which would make, say, a pale green ioun stone weird - granting a +1 bonus on attack rolls and ability checks would mean a +2 bonus on attack rolls if attack rolls were ability checks, which can't be intentional.
On the other hand, in 3.5 Concentration (as a skill) would be improved by a luckstone or similar implement - and it doesn't appear gamebreaking to designate a Concentration check as subject to the same things it did in 3.5.
No damage rolls won't because ability checks are d20 + ability mod + misc. Damage rolls don't use d20s ever.
Also the items that grant bonuses to ability checks, not that I checked all of them but the ones that I did check, do grant bonuses to attack rolls, saves, skills, and ability checks.
If someone can find an item that gives ability check bonuses without granting to the other checks point it out.
So logically it would seem all d20 + ability mod rolls are ability checks.
1) Oops! Don't know what I was thinking. D:
2) Well, if an attack roll is considered an 'ability check', then a luckstone and pale green prism ioun stone have the exact same effects - ie. the luckstone grants a +1 luck bonus to ability checks, and thus attack rolls too, while the ioun stone grants a +1 competence bonus to ability checks AND attack rolls (which don't stack since it's the same bonus type). The two items are 10,000gp apart, so evidently the attack bonus is worth some value - and thus not all d20+ability mod checks are 'ability checks'.
It seems to be more like a caster level check than an ability check.
It seems to be more like a caster level check than an ability check.
That'd be my take as well. I'd assume that an ability check is a d20 check against a raw ability. Like a strength check. Or a charisma check. A concentration check shouldn't be an ability check.
But who knows! :)
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It seems to be more like a caster level check than an ability check.That'd be my take as well. I'd assume that an ability check is a d20 check against a raw ability. Like a strength check. Or a charisma check. A concentration check shouldn't be an ability check.
But who knows! :)
It just feels somehow wrong to me that it doesn't get improved by luckstones and other such items. Keep on marking it as FAQ, guys! :3
It just feels somehow wrong to me that it doesn't get improved by luckstones and other such items. Keep on marking it as FAQ, guys! :3
It may have something to do with the fact that anything which improves caster level will improve concentration checks whereas in 3.5 that was not the case.
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It may have something to do with the fact that anything which improves caster level will improve concentration checks whereas in 3.5 that was not the case.
It just feels somehow wrong to me that it doesn't get improved by luckstones and other such items. Keep on marking it as FAQ, guys! :3
Yeah, but it's certainly a lot easier to improve a skill (Concentration in 3.5) than one's caster level! :P
why on earth was a 3.5 year necro required for your input, here?