Witch's Hex

[Jiggy]

Consider this hex from the witch:

"Evil Eye (Su): The witch can cause doubt to creep into the mind of a foe within 30 feet that she can see. The target takes a –2 penalty on one of the following (witch's choice): AC, ability checks, attack rolls, saving throws, or skill checks. This hex lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the witch's Intelligence modifier. A Will save reduces this to just 1 round. This is a mind-affecting effect. At 8th level the penalty increases to –4."

Suppose I use this on someone and they fail their save, granting them several rounds of this penalty. Next round, I use it again on the same creature. I see nothing in the description preventing me from targeting the same creature multiple times. Since as a general rule penalties stack with each other, I presume this means I could continually lower the target's AC or attack rolls or whatever until I started running out of duration? (This is assuming they keep failing their saves.) Alternatively, could I target them multiple times, applying a penalty to a different category each time, causing them to have a -2 to AC, attacks, AND saves all at once? I don't see anything that seems to prevent this, but I wanted to make sure.

Also, if I stack a couple of instances of Evil Eye on someone, does a Cackle ("A witch can cackle madly as a move action. Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex, or misfortune hex caused by the witch has the duration of that hex extended by 1 round.") increase the duration of each instance of Evil Eye on that creature? I would again assume so, but just want to be sure.

[LazarX]

Like bonuses, penalties of the same type do not stack, but overlap. The only effect your reapplication would have would be to reset the duration.

[thejeff]

I don't think that the same penalty applied multiple times stacks. Otherwise you could pull the same trick with something as common as Bane.

I do think the standard interpretation is that you can use it multiple times to apply the different penalties and extend all of them with Cackle.

[Jiggy]

LazarX wrote:

Like bonuses, penalties of the same type do not stack, but overlap. The only effect your reapplication would have would be to reset the duration.

Um...

PRD wrote:

Penalties are numerical values that are subtracted from a check or statistical score. Penalties do not have a type and most penalties stack with one another.

Or was there some other rule you were referencing?

thejeff wrote:

I don't think that the same penalty applied multiple times stacks. Otherwise you could pull the same trick with something as common as Bane.

Is it already established that you can't do that with Bane? If so, could you cite it for me?

[W E Ray]

Hmmm, I'd have to see the effect in my game, of course, but EVEN IF you could give a -2 to Attack, then a -2 to Saves, then a -2 to AC (attempt to at least cuz once they Save once the Evil Eye won't affect them again 'till tomorrow) that doesn't seem broken at all.

The Wizard with his Fireballs and the Fighter with his Great Cleave is better.

The Witch has to use 3 rounds, any of which could be lost if the creature makes its Save.

[Jiggy]

W E Ray wrote:

once they Save once the Evil Eye won't affect them again 'till tomorrow

According to what?

W E Ray wrote:

The Wizard with his Fireballs and the Fighter with his Great Cleave is better.

Though this is doable at first level, I agree, it wouldn't seem broken. You still need someone else to actually kill the guy; you're just making it easier.

Even so, I'm not trying to see whether or not this is balanced, I'm trying to discover whether or not there's a rule somewhere I'm not aware of that would make this illegal, as everything I've read so far says it's legal.

[W E Ray]

Ah, well I'm certainly not the guy to answer rules minutia questions. Most everyone else here is, though.

Regarding the "won't affect them 'till later" issue -- I was just assuming it's similar to the Slumber Hex which, once a Creature Saves against it the Hex can't be used on it again 'till the next day.

But it may not be the same with each Hex, I dunno.

[thejeff]

PFSRD wrote:

Stacking Effects

Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves.

Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths

In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the one with the highest strength applies.

Same Effect with Differing Results

The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

Technically applies only to spells, but you have no guidance if you don't apply the rules to hexes as well, unless there's a parallel section for hexes and/or other powers.

This does rule against being able to impose multiple effects with evil eye as well.

[Jiggy]

W E Ray wrote:

Regarding the "won't affect them 'till later" issue -- I was just assuming it's similar to the Slumber Hex which, once a Creature Saves against it the Hex can't be used on it again 'till the next day.

But it may not be the same with each Hex, I dunno.

Given that the description of hexes in general says no such thing, we're probably safe assuming that each hex does what it says it does and not random other things. ;)

Side note: the Slumber hex prevents re-targeting regardless of whether or not they make their save.

[Jiggy]

thejeff wrote:

PFSRD wrote:

Stacking Effects

Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves.

Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths

In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the one with the highest strength applies.

Same Effect with Differing Results

The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

Technically applies only to spells, but you have no guidance if you don't apply the rules to hexes as well, unless there's a parallel section for hexes and/or other powers.

This does rule against being able to impose multiple effects with evil eye as well.

This is more the type of thing I was wondering about. My next thought, then, is that the hexes are not spell-like abilities. Most are supernatural abilities, with a couple being extraordinary abilities. If they were spell-like, I think it would be easy to apply the above-cited rule to them. As (Su) abilities, though, that becomes more of a stretch. Any other thoughts on the issue?

[Mathwei ap Niall]

Jiggy wrote:

Consider this hex from the witch:

"Evil Eye (Su): The witch can cause doubt to creep into the mind of a foe within 30 feet that she can see. The target takes a –2 penalty on one of the following (witch's choice): AC, ability checks, attack rolls, saving throws, or skill checks. This hex lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the witch's Intelligence modifier. A Will save reduces this to just 1 round. This is a mind-affecting effect. At 8th level the penalty increases to –4."

Suppose I use this on someone and they fail their save, granting them several rounds of this penalty. Next round, I use it again on the same creature. I see nothing in the description preventing me from targeting the same creature multiple times. Since as a general rule penalties stack with each other, I presume this means I could continually lower the target's AC or attack rolls or whatever until I started running out of duration? (This is assuming they keep failing their saves.) Alternatively, could I target them multiple times, applying a penalty to a different category each time, causing them to have a -2 to AC, attacks, AND saves all at once? I don't see anything that seems to prevent this, but I wanted to make sure.

Also, if I stack a couple of instances of Evil Eye on someone, does a Cackle ("A witch can cackle madly as a move action. Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex, or misfortune hex caused by the witch has the duration of that hex extended by 1 round.") increase the duration of each instance of Evil Eye on that creature? I would again assume so, but just want to be sure.

Penalties do stack however they cannot be affected by the same source multiple times.

Meaning you can hit your target with Evil Eye multiple times but each use has to affect a different attribute (ie saves on the first application, then AC then Attack bonus, etc)

Cackle does refresh ALL hexes you have applied within thirty feet. So if you have 500 hexes going on and they are all in range of you then they all get refreshed for another round. That's why every witch you meet WILL have this hex, it's too god to skip.

[Jiggy]

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

Penalties do stack however they cannot be affected by the same source multiple times.

Meaning you can hit your target with Evil Eye multiple times but each use has to affect a different attribute (ie saves on the first application, then AC then Attack bonus, etc)

Can you cite this in the rules? Are you looking at the same rule that thejeff cited? If so, see my response to that. If you're going by something else, then please cite the rules text.

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

That's why every witch you meet WILL have this hex, it's too god to skip.

Well, unless said witch is focusing on hexes that Cackle doesn't affect, like Slumber, Flight, Cauldron, etc.

[thejeff]

Jiggy wrote:

This is more the type of thing I was wondering about. My next thought, then, is that the hexes are not spell-like abilities. Most are supernatural abilities, with a couple being extraordinary abilities. If they were spell-like, I think it would be easy to apply the above-cited rule to them. As (Su) abilities, though, that becomes more of a stretch. Any other thoughts on the issue?

In my first look, I missed the following from directly before the previous quote:

PFSRD wrote:

Combining Magic Effects

Spells or magical effects usually work as described, no matter how many other spells or magical effects happen to be operating in the same area or on the same recipient. Except in special cases, a spell does not affect the way another spell operates. Whenever a spell has a specific effect on other spells, the spell description explains that effect. Several other general rules apply when spells or magical effects operate in the same place:

I believe spells, supernatural abilities and spell-like abilities are all magical effects.

I remember a previous discussion about using the Evil Eye for different effects. I'll see if I can find that again.

And here's a LINK to a Developer claiming it should work

[Jiggy]

Ah. Guess that link settles it.

And I particularly enjoy the tone of it:
"Yes, if a witch wants to spend all her actions over several rounds adding evil eye penalties to the same target, she can do so."

Clearly, SKR does not find this to be an optimal use of actions. ;) Even so, nice to know it's legal, just in case I find myself naked and devoid of spell slots.

EDIT: What the...? I saw your link while I was typing a reply, then after I submitted it disappeared, then I come in to do this edit, and it's there again...

[beej67]

I don't see a link. I'd like to see one, because I do absolutely want to chain "-4 to save" a couple times before my baleful polymorph.

[Jiggy]

beej67 wrote:

I don't see a link. I'd like to see one, because I do absolutely want to chain "-4 to save" a couple times before my baleful polymorph.

Incidentally, the link is showing up for me now. Also, what I quoted in my post is exactly what the linked post says.

[Grick]

beej67 wrote:

I do absolutely want to chain "-4 to save" a couple times before my baleful polymorph.

What I took from the linked thread was:

A) You cannot cast Evil Eye 3 times to grant -6 penalty to saves
B) You can cast Evil Eye 3 times to grant a -2 penalty to saves, AC, and skill checks.

The OP (of the linked thread) was asking about multiple Evil Eyes to reduce AC. SKR said "Unless otherwise stated, an effect does not stack with itself." which I take as a no.

Later, someone asked if they could use multiple Evil Eyes to penalize a different stat each time, to which SKR said "Yes, if a witch wants to spend all her actions over several rounds adding evil eye penalties to the same target, she can do so."

[beej67]

Thanks Grick.

But yeah, I still can't see a link.

Creepy.

Apparently the board is plagued with ethereal filchers.

[Grick]

beej67 wrote:

But yeah, I still can't see a link.

The Link

unlinked, for copy-pasting:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/archives/witchHexStackingAndRange&page=1#4

Tinyurled:
http://tinyurl.com/3ulzs5g

[Yakman]

This was very helpful. My one witch cannot stack evil eye on saves multiple times on the same victim.

But can my 2 witches?

EDIT: NOPE. They cannot. Or at least only the higher penalty would apply.

[UD Sentient Squirrel Swarm]

"This thread shall be PURIFIED through the Perfection of Undeath, and shall rise once more," the Swarm of Undead Sentient Squirrels echoes in unison, "all shall fall before the Might of the Swarm!"