I actually have developed this idea somewhat, only the world is well into the recovery phase already. There are still areas that are experiencing problems of different magnitudes, and full casters are still comparatively rare, and mostly focused on fixing the remaining instabilities, but magic as a whole, at least at low levels, is common enough that the party really wouldn't be noticably impacted until they reached level 5 or seriously impacted until level 10. This way, magic still has a certain mystique about it, but the core assumptions about its accessibility aren't challenged until the party has more means of dealing with those challenges, and aside from a few relatively minor aspects, the challenges to the core assumptions can be mostly ignored if the party really truly does not want to deal with them.
I would play. I would trust the DM to trickle magic in when mundane stuff started getting boring.
Can you imagine how awesome a regular old sword would be if it glowed every time you pulled it out of its scabbard... in a campaign like this I mean.
Question: What happened to bonded mounts, animal companions, familiars, and eidolons when this world-wide AM field hit?
The land where rogues rule with an iron fist.
I would play. I would trust the DM to trickle magic in when mundane stuff started getting boring.
Can you imagine how awesome a regular old sword would be if it glowed every time you pulled it out of its scabbard... in a campaign like this I mean.
I would much rather play an adventure path like "Rise of the Techlords" (RotRL transplanted from Varisia to Numeria) with no magic whatsoever.
If well done, it would be an interesting variant.
Pathfinder isn't made for this IMO. I'd rather play Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (2nd edition) for this, as it has a truckload of non-magic classes and fights are brutal. The game is pretty much low-fantasy, so it's more adapted for this kind of setting.
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Just use d20 Modern (Past/Future/Apocalypse/etc.) rules. ESPECIALLY the rules for Treat Injury/Heal. It would make for a gritty, perilous campaign.
There are a lot of fun classes that don't use magic: Barbarian, Cavalier, Fighter, Rogue, and many that use a minimum of magic or magic that could be re-skinned as something else: Alchemist, Bard, Monk, Ranger, maybe Paladin.Allow access to the d20 Modern classes, and you can have some great combos of PCs for the party, particularly the Mental Stat classes (Smart Hero, Dedicated Hero, Charismatic Hero).
I think it would be neat to begin the PCs as d20 Modern classes (Strong, Fast, Tough, Smart, Dedicated, and Charismatic Heroes), and have the regular Pathfinder classes be 20 level advanced classes.
EDIT:
Fun non-magic roles include archer, tank, combat maneuver specialists (Combat Expertise AND Power Attack based ones), damage dealer, skill monkey, knowledge monkey, scout, reach-weapon-battle-field-controller,
party face, splash weapon grenadier, etc. etc.--with lots of fun overlap!!!!
Funny you should mention the d20 modern idea. I am currently working on a Dark Sun campaign (going for a Thundarr the Barbarian feel) using d20 modern basic classes as a starting point.
I figured instead of trying to make Pathfinder into low-magic, just use d20 modern the system that's already designed that way.
I would play or run a no-magic (or low-magic) fantasy game but I can't really see it working very well with D&D/Pathfinder rules because magic is so integral to the system. I'd probably use GURPS, which even has a ready-made low-magic campaign setting (Banestorm, though I can't say I like the setting very much).
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I would play in game like that. I wouldn't want every game to be like that but if done right no magic games can be fun. Played on in 2E, wasn't no magic but extremely low magic. I had a ranger, no spells at 9th level that only had +1 non magical sword and handful of magic +1 arrows. Got the sword when I was 3rd level and used it all the way up. It was a fun game that we ran for a little over a year.
My gaming group is entering the second phase of our homebrew campaign, a setting in which after a cataclysmic battle brought on by an attempted freeing of Rovagug, magic has been lost in the world.
Essentially, there are no spells, older wizards are only just now figuring out how to cast Cantrips, there are no magical items, item creation, or creatures, and even (Su) and (Sp) abilities do not currently work until they are somehow mysteriously unlocked.
I am not trying to bash the concept, I am just wondering what the consensus would be among other PF players as far as interest in this type of game.
(NOTE: I am not the GM for this...)
If your players know from the outset that there will be no magic, that is one thing. But you seem to be saying that this is a Shadowdale move, meaning that people made casters who suddenly find at level 5 that they are useless. Pulling the rug out would not be fun if you started with a caster.
I probably would play in a campaign like that. We have a DM in our group who likes non-standard startups. In the first campaign I played with said GM, we were only allowed to play characters that were human or could pass as human. All his plot hooks revolved around advancing his own story (although he did allow a fair amount of side antics and innovation on our part). The up side was I usually wanted to find out what happened next in the story.
Our current GM puts heavy restrictions on casters (arcane and divine). I would prefer a game where this was not the case, but he has put up with enough of my shenanigans in the campaigns I DM for. We all tend to go along with the group.
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My gaming group is entering the second phase of our homebrew campaign, a setting in which after a cataclysmic battle brought on by an attempted freeing of Rovagug, magic has been lost in the world.
Essentially, there are no spells, older wizards are only just now figuring out how to cast Cantrips, there are no magical items, item creation, or creatures, and even (Su) and (Sp) abilities do not currently work until they are somehow mysteriously unlocked.
I am not trying to bash the concept, I am just wondering what the consensus would be among other PF players as far as interest in this type of game.
(NOTE: I am not the GM for this...)
Absolutely and i love the concept. The problem is finding the other 2 people in the world who would enjoy the same kind of game.
I am also working on my homebrew setting that is low magic.The idea is just not that easily accepted by the average player who is used to high fantasy magic rich games.
My gaming group is entering the second phase of our homebrew campaign, a setting in which after a cataclysmic battle brought on by an attempted freeing of Rovagug, magic has been lost in the world.
Essentially, there are no spells, older wizards are only just now figuring out how to cast Cantrips, there are no magical items, item creation, or creatures, and even (Su) and (Sp) abilities do not currently work until they are somehow mysteriously unlocked.
I am not trying to bash the concept, I am just wondering what the consensus would be among other PF players as far as interest in this type of game.
(NOTE: I am not the GM for this...)
Absolutely and i love the concept. The problem is finding the other 2 people in the world who would enjoy the same kind of game.
I am also working on my homebrew setting that is low magic.The idea is just not that easily accepted by the average player who is used to high fantasy magic rich games.
My current homebrew is a Nordic/Inuit crossbreed with low magic (it's a 3.5/Pathfinder base), and I have six players in it currently. So it's not tough to find players who are willing to give it a go -- you need to let them know in advance, of course, and not just spring it on them in an oh-by-the-way fashion; but if you've got players interested in a change of pace, it works just fine.
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One bit of clarification, we are rolling new PCs for this phase and know going in that the world has been without magic for centuries, and it is only now sneaking back into the world. Wizards spend their lives studying ancient ruins, trying to find out if the old Bard's tales of magic are true, and if so, how can it be brought back. I intend to play an Alchemist, trying to prove that science is superior to magic and that people should stop searching for the past and look to the future. (Albeit my own magic "aura" gets used in my extracts etc.) Not sure how that is actually going to work seeing as how I get no abilities at first level..
Also, magical companions like familiars and eidolons are non existent, yet. I honestly do not know the mecahnics for how magic is supposed to come back. It is supposed to be a mystery to the players as well as the characters, it seems
So no Su or Sp abilities, no spells, no Outsiders, Magical Beasts, Dragons, or Abberations. I think that caps the game out at what? 13th level? I guess you can start giving humanoids and monstrous humanoids class levels.
I really wish some people would just play the system they want instead of trying to shoe-horn another system into a certain style of play.
Welcome to Barbarian World! Renewed Vigor is (Ex)! Flesh Wound is (Ex)! Guarded Life is (Ex)! Take the Endurance/Diehard/Fast Healer feat chain!
Before I even read the thread, I know that my answer will be no. Low magic? Yes. No magic? Just visit the renaissance faire.
Absolutely and i love the concept. The problem is finding the other 2 people in the world who would enjoy the same kind of game.I am also working on my homebrew setting that is low magic.The idea is just not that easily accepted by the average player who is used to high fantasy magic rich games.
I agree. It's hard to find people who want to play this way.
The non-magical classes are, for the most part, exceedingly dull. That's a weakness of Pathfinder.speak for yourself. I'm a huge fan of most all martial classes.
And I'm totally down for for a low/no-magic campaign. Darksun is one of my favorite settings ever, and very similar to what the OP described.
Ditto. Caster classes don't require much thought past character creation. You just sit back and cast. Martial classes need tactics.
I would totally play in this campaign. However, I would need to know it would be that way from the start. I have had the "God of magic dies, your toys stop working." plot twist thrown at me before. Not fun, especially if only one out of four PCs is a martial class. I do think PF can do zero magic well- the martial classes are well balanced against each other and magical healing during battle has never been effective anyway. In between battles you have time for nonmagical healing. You know, the kind with bandages and medicine.
I would probably give it a shot...
Honestly, this isnt' the FIRST setting to do this. Dragonlance went through a couple of times when there was little to no magic completley nerfing clerics and wizards...
I never played Dark Sun... but I heard that was VERY magic-unfriendly...
I DID play Ravenloft 1890's... where you never found a 3rd level spell...
So low-no magic doesn't scare me.. as long as the players KNOW that going in... If I planned a super cool mystic theurge and around level 9, I lose EVERYTHING that WAS my character... i'd be VERY upset.
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or ask to switch out my character.
We're about to start a 2E Forgotten realms game heading into spell plague area...
we've been warned in advance...
should be AWESOME :)
I would be concerned about healing/damage... but I think it could still be a lot of fun :)
I'm going to sound a bit heretical here, but 4E D&D would work really well for something like that, where "magic" is just another power source; but for Pathfinder and 3E-like systems? Not really. I wouldn't do it, because you're playing with maybe a two-thirds of the game gone.
Sure, I'd play in it if it, otherwise, was a cool setting/campaign.
I would play in a low magic campaign, not one without magic, the reason I like low magic campaigns is because they make magic more special without. Not because I like to kill all things magical off, it is too big a part of the D&D/Pathfinder experience.
I would play in a low magic campaign, not one without magic, the reason I like low magic campaigns is because they make magic more special without.
I'd actually rather play a no-magic campaign than a low-magic campaign because "low-magic" is usually ill-defined. Can everyone in the party be a wizard? If so, how is that "low magic"? If not, how do you limit the PCs from playing magic classes without banning them outright?
Low or lower magic I could, zero magic I wouldn't, never.
I would play in a low magic campaign, not one without magic, the reason I like low magic campaigns is because they make magic more special without.I'd actually rather play a no-magic campaign than a low-magic campaign because "low-magic" is usually ill-defined. Can everyone in the party be a wizard? If so, how is that "low magic"? If not, how do you limit the PCs from playing magic classes without banning them outright?
That's why it's important to talk to the players before beginning a campaing, give them a list of house rules for this specific game and see if they all agree with it.
I'd certainly give it a go. I'm not a huge fan of magic anyhow, and this would shift some of the focus towards the martial classes. In normal magic games I almost always favor E6 anyhow, so that most of the more difficult spells are not an issue. As an alternate, I could see playing in a non-E6 game where the DM controls which spells are available -- so the difficult spells are never player-allowed. So the premise of a world where magic (and, conveniently, non-problematic magic) is discovered is very enticing.
I would, if I trusted the GM to adjust challenges accordingly, and made sure we weren't spending weeks and weeks just waiting to heal in game time between fights.
Alternate damage systems might be encouraged (or heavy use of nonlethal damage, as they encourage in d20 Modern).
Just use d20 Modern (Past/Future/Apocalypse/etc.) rules. ESPECIALLY the rules for Treat Injury/Heal. It would make for a gritty, perilous campaign.
There are a lot of fun classes that don't use magic: Barbarian, Cavalier, Fighter, Rogue, and many that use a minimum of magic or magic that could be re-skinned as something else: Alchemist, Bard, Monk, Ranger, maybe Paladin.Allow access to the d20 Modern classes, and you can have some great combos of PCs for the party, particularly the Mental Stat classes (Smart Hero, Dedicated Hero, Charismatic Hero).
I think it would be neat to begin the PCs as d20 Modern classes (Strong, Fast, Tough, Smart, Dedicated, and Charismatic Heroes), and have the regular Pathfinder classes be 20 level advanced classes.
EDIT:
Fun non-magic roles include archer, tank, combat maneuver specialists (Combat Expertise AND Power Attack based ones), damage dealer, skill monkey, knowledge monkey, scout, reach-weapon-battle-field-controller,
party face, splash weapon grenadier, etc. etc.--with lots of fun overlap!!!!
Funny you should mention the d20 modern idea. I am currently working on a Dark Sun campaign (going for a Thundarr the Barbarian feel) using d20 modern basic classes as a starting point.
I figured instead of trying to make Pathfinder into low-magic, just use d20 modern the system that's already designed that way.
Lords of Light!!! That sounds fun!!!
I pretend not to have magic everyday. it's not very much fun. I'd rather be throwing fireballs. ;-)
I'm going to sound a bit heretical here, but 4E D&D would work really well for something like that, where "magic" is just another power source; but for Pathfinder and 3E-like systems? Not really. I wouldn't do it, because you're playing with maybe a two-thirds of the game gone.
This is basically Dark Sun. Divine power sourced classes are banned. 4E is the only D&D system I can think of that can do no "magic" at all.
Adapt and overcome. The people playing wizards can find a way to make do. That's a part of RPing in my opinion.If your players know from the outset that there will be no magic, that is one thing. But you seem to be saying that this is a Shadowdale move, meaning that people made casters who suddenly find at level 5 that they are useless. Pulling the rug out would not be fun if you started with a caster.My gaming group is entering the second phase of our homebrew campaign, a setting in which after a cataclysmic battle brought on by an attempted freeing of Rovagug, magic has been lost in the world.
Essentially, there are no spells, older wizards are only just now figuring out how to cast Cantrips, there are no magical items, item creation, or creatures, and even (Su) and (Sp) abilities do not currently work until they are somehow mysteriously unlocked.
I am not trying to bash the concept, I am just wondering what the consensus would be among other PF players as far as interest in this type of game.
(NOTE: I am not the GM for this...)
I agree with you to a point, but I don't think,"Your class abilities are gone" generally makes for a fun game. People pick a class because they want a character that can do certain things. People put effort into constructing a character. A lot of people make a plan for a character. There are ways to make a challenging game without throwing all the toys out the window. And I think it would generate conflict and resentment. I can see how a lot of players would perceive it as a major GM d-ck move, whether or not it was intended that way.
I would play in one. Special material bonus' take care of alot of DR problems. Alchemist fire and acid take care of even more. The only problem would be healing injuries in or between battle. You could handle that by changing the cleric class into a "combat medic" class and let him use healing kits and a modified treat deadly wound via the heal skill. Make a class ability that the cleric gets so they can use it as a standard action and a number of times per day per person equal to wis mod or something. Maybe like ;
Level 1 - Field Surgeon - The treat deadly wounds option of the heal skill is a standard action and can be used a number of times per day equal to your Wisdom score. This class feature uses 2 charges of your healers kit.
Level 3 and every odd level after - Medic training - Increases the amount healed by treat deadly wounds by 1d8
Seems like it would work fine.
Edit - you could also give him other interesting buffs or status effects based on the healing skill. like ;
Level 5 - adrenaline shot - Target gain the Haste spell for a number of round equal to the medics level. This uses 1 charge of your healers kit.
I would play in one. Special material bonus' take care of alot of DR problems. Alchemist fire and acid take care of even more. The only problem would be healing injuries in or between battle. You could handle that by changing the cleric class into a "combat medic" class and let him use healing kits and a modified treat deadly wound via the heal skill. Make a class ability that the cleric gets so they can use it as a standard action and a number of times per day per person equal to wis mod or something. Maybe like ;
What exactly do you propose is going to take care of the inherent game balance assumption that players are using wealth by level to magically improve their attack, defenses, and damage? Getting rid of more than half the creatures in the book helps, but not entirely.
Yes. I don't play one-trick ponies that rely on magic. :)Not a Fighter player, then?
But whacking folks upside the head is a really good trick, TOZ!
I get you, and I agree that it can feel that way. Take this in the trust that you have a GM that ultimately plans to let the PC's take on appropriate challenges and to present them with chances to shine.
A wizard completed devoid of magic is a commoner. I dont care if you are god's gift to dming. A commoner is not going to shine around actual PC classes. There is a sliding scale here, and everyone will have their own limits, but in the context put down by the OP this is going to be beyond even the most reasonable point on that scale for magic focused characters. Even if the DM plans to have some future event or discovery let the wizard shine again, how much real world time will that be? Weeks months? How many hours of game time will the character just be tagging along for the ride? Even the most avid roleplayer wants his character to do SOMETHING, and a wizard without magic or supernatural abilities is literally nothing.
In that context, there is no limit to the level of player entitlement that they can feel. Why stop with class powers. Maybe they feel entitled to get their magic item wish list, to have their wealth by level, to be able to buy anything they want in town, to build any magic item they have gold for, to only fight 4-5 CR appropriate encounters, to always be allowed to win no matter how stupid they behave because they are the heroes... maybe they planned how they would beat the next boss fight.
Again there is a sliding scale. I have played in games where the players were heaped with treasure, and others where a Masterwork sword was a quest item at level 6. Any Gear or wealth is negotiable with extra work from the dm, but I do not think class abilities are. You are talking about apples and oranges.
Gear/wealth let you do things better or worse, the dm can account for lower dc's or lower to hits. Class abilities are your ability to do ANYTHING, without them you literally have no options of things to do. You can still cast a spell without magic rods or an item to boost your casting stat. A good dm can account for that with more appropriate monsters, or fewer combats, or conditions that make things more even, or what have you. But without the ability to cast the spell in the first place the dm cannot account for that. The player isn't doing anything at all.
As an example, could even the best dm find a place for a pure fighter if in the world it was impossible to do physical violence to anyone else(including non lethal violence)? It just doesnt work if you make a characters class abilities useless, or remove them outright. At that point, dont allow the class.
There is litterally no limit to what players can want if they are the kind of people to feel entitled to having the game run a certain way. To them, I hope they get a GM they get along with exactly or who is the kind of pushover they can respect.
I think any group is entitled to come to a consensus as a group on the kind of game they want to play. I think it is a diservice to call a player over entitled for wanting some input on the activity they will spend hours of their actual lives on. That is disrespectful of a good player's commitment to a game.