The wizard player recently read Treantmonk's guide and went from a decent contributor in the party to bending every encounter over a barrel, lol. It's a lot of fun.
That is much better to hear.
From the other side of the screen I got to say that blasting is sub-par. In a recent session 30d6 of Fireballs got dumped on the party (Necklace of Fireballs smashed)...
No one was really buffed...PCs had lost hits...they were 12lvl...
One PC crisped...
Three PCs stood smouldering...
One PC didn't even take a point of damage...
and I was worried about a TPK.
Either hes a fast learner/natural talent or your DM is doing it wrong? :)
*shrugs* Both perhaps. I'm the DM actually, been mostly using the 4 encounters a day, stock monster method to get them used to the game. The wizard was mostly using blasting and buffing up to this point but the guide got him thinking in a different direction and it has proven startlingly effective. Has worked well for party synergy too in that the wizard cripples the foes and the fighter and barb tear them apart.
*shrugs* Both perhaps. I'm the DM actually, been mostly using the 4 encounters a day, stock monster method to get them used to the game. The wizard was mostly using blasting and buffing up to this point but the guide got him thinking in a different direction and it has proven startlingly effective. Has worked well for party synergy too in that the wizard cripples the foes and the fighter and barb tear them apart.Either hes a fast learner/natural talent or your DM is doing it wrong? :)
I say natural talent 100% :)
I'm not really sure where I stand on the whole issue but I guess when I ask myself the following: If I'm going to cast a spell that has to deal with defenses like SR and saves do I want a spell that's successful effect is to do some damage or cripple the enemy? I will usually choose to cripple if for no other reason than a monster that is damaged but not dead hasn't lost any combat effectiveness at all and as a squishy wizard keeping the beasty away from me is more important then contributing to it's death. I dunno that might just be the paranoia talking.
I'm not really sure where I stand on the whole issue but I guess when I ask myself the following: If I'm going to cast a spell that has to deal with defenses like SR and saves do I want a spell that's successful effect is to do some damage or cripple the enemy? I will usually choose to cripple if for no other reason than a monster that is damaged but not dead hasn't lost any combat effectiveness at all and as a squishy wizard keeping the beasty away from me is more important then contributing to it's death. I dunno that might just be the paranoia talking.
On the contrary crippling does not kill.
HP Damage does.You can cripple all you want, if he has some backup (most of the time a cleric will do) he can remove most of the debuffs you have slapped on him in 1 standard action. Many of them even while healing the target.
On the contrary crippling does not kill.
HP Damage does.You can cripple all you want, if he has some backup (most of the time a cleric will do) he can remove most of the debuffs you have slapped on him in 1 standard action. Many of them even while healing the target.
Huh? When did I say crippling kills?
And yes a cleric can get rid of most conditions but he can also heal hp damage like you said...
That's not what I'm assuming, nor have I ever made that claim. I think that any one of Battlefield control, buffing and debuffing are tactically superior to blasting more often than not. They are better overall. That is not the same as better in every situation.I disagree that they are better overall. I can end encounters with blasting 70 to 80% of time without even using top end blasting. This is in actual level appropriate modules, not your theorycrafting.
Look over some modules or designed encounters. Look at 70 to 80% of them and come back to me again with how using one or two blasting spells versus a cadre of battlefield control, buffing, and debuffing spells is more effective.
He was not theorycrafting. Much of his wizard handbook came from an actual game. Which one works better is largely dependent on GM style, but blasting by the experience of the masses is inferior in most cases.
This can be true.
But in Pathfinder an optimal wizard isn't even necessary any longer unless the DM is really going out of his way to mess you up. There are so many different class combinations that have incredible utility and damage dealing capacity, it's really not fun to sit around and do battle field control, buffing, and debuffing while these other guys are smashing. I've cast a slow spell before only to watch my party butcher what we're fighting.
As I said in my post it depends on the party. I'm a much bigger fan of group party creation rather than single character creation. However, your comment about whether tipping the scale in your part's favor and watching them slaughter the enemy shows that we may have a different view on what is fun. I would find the above far more satisfying than blasting the baddies away myself, but maybe it's just me.
Have you seen what some of these melee classes can do now? Have you seen a optimized barbarian with 400 hit points and superstitious in action? Or an Inquisitor with Seize the Moment, Judgements, and fully spell buffed fighting next to a crit build fighter can do in battle? Or a two-hander fighter?
I have seen fighting classes that are great at what they do. With a note about the 400hp barbarian though, it has been a long time since I've played in a level 10 or higher group, so my arguments may or may not hold as much water at higher level play.
How much fun is it as a arcane caster to cast your piddly little battlefield control spell while the fighter pats you on the side with his gore covered hand and thanks you for doing nothing. "Nice spell, bud. Didn't really need it. Killed that thing in about 6 seconds. But glad you cared."It's not all that fun. That's why sometimes it's more fun to get a little of the damage glory for yourself. Melees just don't need the little snobbish "GOD" wizard as much any longer except to get them around when they want to buy something at a major city.
Believe it or not, I used to play strictly blast wizards in the past (Pre Pathfinder though). Were they fun? Sure. After reading TM's guide, I learned to give other spells a try, and personal, I'm never going back. Far far far more FUN to not blast.
How much fun is it as a arcane caster to cast your piddly little blast spell while the fighter pats you on the side with his gore covered hand and thanks you for doing nothing. "Nice spell, bud. monsters made their saves though. Killed that thing in about 6 seconds. But glad you cared."
The only time my party melees need the crowd control and the like is when we face off against another party using said crowd control. But I can't even put a major dragon in direct melee with them and expect that to be a challenge. They'll butcher it.
It sounds like whomever is running these encounters is not using the baddies to their full potential, but it's hard to say with what you've posted.
Just the other day the friggin lvl 3 Magus did a 50 point critical hit ending the encounter with the big bad NPC in one hit in our level appropriate module.
Yesterday, in my kingmaker game, the lvl 3 barbarian did a 50 point critical hit, dropping the big bad npc in once hit in a level appropriate encounter. Just prior, the wizard blinded said npc with glitter dust, preventing the barbarian from taking any damage. When the blasters in your group are killing all of the bad guys, what are your fighters doing? probably nothing. Now that might not actually be the case in your group, but if it is, there is nothing worse than doing nothing in a rpg. Much more fun to make winning an encounter a group effort, not a rush to kill the badguys before the others have a chance to even engage.
Why should melees have all the damage fun now? They aren't the little easily killed podunks they used to be. Their sick damage beasts now. I want to be a sick damage beast blaster wizard so I don't get to sit there being their errand boy.
Obviously your all about doing damage, which is fine. I just recommend tailoring the group at character creation with that in mind. If you have 2 damage dealers, and something else in the party, then I think it is a bit selfish to make another damage dealer. party balance is key. If your wizard is set up as the main party damage dealer, you have someone for mundane damage, and you have two other classes filling the role of magical support and damage control, then there is nothing wrong with playing a wizard like a fighter.
Barbs, magus, inquisitors, archers, monks, and physical damage dealers just don't need arcane casters like they used to. They have crazy abilities that allow them to deal with 80 or 90% of what they fight with fair ease on top of more hit points.
Depends on the module/encounter. I'm a bit skeptical about this statement, but if that is true, why even play a wizard in the first place? My goal is to protect my party, and to be the "Magic against magic" when I play a spell caster. I'd like to see what your healers are doing during the combat, how much damage the damage dealers have taken, and if players actually dropped in battle.
So screw that if I'm not going to compete for some of the damage glory on occasion. I'm tired of watching the Come and Get Me barbarian do 200 plus points of damage a round or the Two-hander fighter obliterate everything he hits in strike or two. Gods help the creature he crits.I'm getting some of that damage glory for myself. They don't need me to control the battlefield as much any longer. They don't even need my haste as much. I'd rather have a build that lets me as the arcane caster hammer.
To each his own. Obviously we have different views on what is fun.
Again I don't hate blasting, I just find it a much more useful secondary tool, then a primary tool.
It sounds like whomever is running these encounters is not using the baddies to their full potential, but it's hard to say with what you've posted.The only time my party melees need the crowd control and the like is when we face off against another party using said crowd control. But I can't even put a major dragon in direct melee with them and expect that to be a challenge. They'll butcher it.
I have to agree. My dragons never get manhandled. I have yet to have a dragon lose without GM fiat barring a lucky string of crits. That was just one of those days where the players kept critting.
It's not all that fun. That's why sometimes it's more fun to get a little of the damage glory for yourself. Melees just don't need the little snobbish "GOD" wizard as much any longerBelieve it or not, I used to play strictly blast wizards in the past (Pre Pathfinder though). Were they fun? Sure. After reading TM's guide, I learned to give other spells a try, and personal, I'm never going back. Far far far more FUN to not blast.
You made my day. My thanks!
I actually wish there was something like your guide built right into the game to at least give new players some idea of what is effective when and which options are more for narrative use. Even just short tags that didn't use up much wordspace would be nice.
Fireball: for use against hordes of lower level mooks.
Cloistered Cleric: to be played when you want to suck.
Pish posh! If you ain't blastin', you ain't castin'!
Pish posh! If you ain't blastin', you ain't castin'!
I suppose, in the end for blasting to really be worth it to me there should at least be a chance to drop your enemies in one round but in my personal experience the only time that happens is when you are fighting foes that aren't much of a threat anyway. Even lower level battlefield control and debuff spells though have basically completely ended CR equivalent battles in one round on a pretty regular basis in games I've played.
This can be true.
But in Pathfinder an optimal wizard isn't even necessary any longer unless the DM is really going out of his way to mess you up. There are so many different class combinations that have incredible utility and damage dealing capacity, it's really not fun to sit around and do battle field control, buffing, and debuffing while these other guys are smashing. I've cast a slow spell before only to watch my party butcher what we're fighting.
It is trivially easy to kill partys in Pathfinder, just as it was trivially easy to kill parties in 3.5. CR appropriate encounters in their natural habitats and lairs tend to be pretty nasty.
I also find it the opposite. I don't find it particularly fun to use my spells - a limited resource - to deal moderate damage while actually doing little to nothing to stop the enemy from retaliating. That's a good way to get killed to. You drop a fireball, piss off but not kill the enemies, and next round you find yourself the target of a dozen 1d8+3 arrows that pierce protection from arrows. So glad I dropped that fireball.
Have you seen what some of these melee classes can do now? Have you seen a optimized barbarian with 400 hit points and superstitious in action? Or an Inquisitor with Seize the Moment, Judgements, and fully spell buffed fighting next to a crit build fighter can do in battle? Or a two-hander fighter?
Absolutely. Which is why they're a heck of a lot better for the dealing damage role. I could totally haste that barbarian and fighter and multiply their meat-grinding potential. Heck, because of me the fighter is also 10 ft wide with a 10-20 ft reach, with a +2 strength, and a large and more devastating weapon. Or the enemies have to decide between moving or taking a standard action. Or the enemies have to run out of a cloud, coughing and choking, while the barbarian and fighter and inquisitor mow them down like grass.
How much fun is it as a arcane caster to cast your piddly little battlefield control spell while the fighter pats you on the side with his gore covered hand and thanks you for doing nothing. "Nice spell, bud. Didn't really need it. Killed that thing in about 6 seconds. But glad you cared."
This is the effect I see with blasting. Who gives a turkey that you dealt 17.5 damage with your fireball when a 1st level CR 1/3 orc deals 10.5 damage per swing, and your party's barbarian is dealing 1d10+18 damage per swing with his reach weapon? Do you think your barbarian is going to care or notice your piddly damage (on a successful save it's less than 10 damage), or will he noticed that now because he is hasted he is dealing 1d10+18 damage twice per turn, and moves at 70 ft instead of 40 ft? Which do you think the party's barbarian is going to go "Oh hell yeah man, you should cast that spell every single fight ever, because that was awesome" to?
It's not all that fun. That's why sometimes it's more fun to get a little of the damage glory for yourself. Melees just don't need the little snobbish "GOD" wizard as much any longer except to get them around when they want to buy something at a major city.
Fun is relative I guess. Some people can't stand playing wizards but love sorcerers, even if they pick the same spells. Some people love barbarians but hate fighters. Some people say monks are really fun to play, and I have a younger brother who gets highly amused by playing NPC classes like Expert.
Also, why does the wizard gotta be a snob? Why is it only fun if you're competing in a proverbial phallus-size contest of damage? "Oh look at how much damage I did, looks like I'm the most special!" Please, I'm not buying that. See, I think it's really fun to know that you put the kebosh on some big-bad. They can't cast their damaging spells on you because they can't see you? They can't fly because there's a wall in the way? You reversed gravity and threw non-flying enemies into the sky? Your party's fighter smacked an enemy for 40 damage out of 400 but inflicted a -4 penalty on all saves so now you're adding an incredibly detailed statue of a Balor to your party's collection?
Also, it's really boring when your favorite spells are totally useless. "Man I wish I didn't prepare (if wizard) or learn (if sorcerer, and this is worse) scorching ray and fireball right now. If I had known we were going to be fighting fire elementals and red dragons, I would have picked something else".
The only time my party melees need the crowd control and the like is when we face off against another party using said crowd control. But I can't even put a major dragon in direct melee with them and expect that to be a challenge. They'll butcher it.
Hahaha! Man, that's a laugh. Crowd control is good for virtually everything. You get swarmed by a crapload of kobolds who will kill you (and kobolds WILL kill you unless the GM is just a newbie who thinks melee is something kobolds love to do)? Sleep. Colorspray. Silent Image (yay, 100% concealment until they come and play with the wall). Party encounters a giant earth elemental? Haste makes the damage output of the warriors even greater, so now the elemental dies quicker, party takes less damage.
Also the dragon bit seems like a personal problem. They might have pills for that. Last I checked even the watered down dragons in Pathfinder (and they did get watered down from 3.5) are pretty darn frightening in melee. They have access to plenty of buffs, usable treasures, summoned monsters, cloud spells, mirror images, and worse. Likewise, they often have 5+ attacks per round, can literally sit on some poor fool with no hope of escape while they beat on poor fool #2. They can statch up up in their mouth and then unleash hell on you with no saving throw. They don't even have to get into melee. They can just fly around while being immune to arrows and using flyby attack to breath death on you as they pass. Let's not forget resist energy and similar protections they can have up and active before they ambush a party with their surprisingly high Stealth modifiers while they approach the party invisible.
Fortunately, we can cast Fly and Haste on the warriors and let the chase the dragon, dispel their immunity to arrows, throw up a wall spell to force the dragon to waste time while the cleric buffs, throw summoned monsters at the dragon to slow his approach, summon an Ice Devil to spam Wall of Ice left and right to make being a large lumbering dragon difficult in terms of moving about unimpeded. We can throw on our own Resist Energy to give the Fighter and company a 30 point damage resistance for the next 20 minutes or so. The cleric can cast death ward on the Fighter and then collect a nice statue, or make a bunny-rabbit out of the wyrm.
Just the other day the friggin lvl 3 Magus did a 50 point critical hit ending the encounter with the big bad NPC in one hit in our level appropriate module.
All the more reason why you shouldn't bother with trying to win the damage race with classes whose entire shtick is being a champion damage dealer.
Why should melees have all the damage fun now? They aren't the little easily killed podunks they used to be. Their sick damage beasts now. I want to be a sick damage beast blaster wizard so I don't get to sit there being their errand boy.
Ah, now I see. You're just jealous. You don't like teamwork, and you want to be better at dealing damage than the guy whose entire class is built around damage. If strategic combat, buffing, disabling, and shaping the world to suit your whims is being someone's errand boy, then I guess you're the most important errand boy ever. That's like having a cabin-boy on a sailing ship that makes the ship float.
Barbs, magus, inquisitors, archers, monks, and physical damage dealers just don't need arcane casters like they used to. They have crazy abilities that allow them to deal with 80 or 90% of what they fight with fair ease on top of more hit points.
It's nice to see they're not completely hosed. However, as you point out, they are kings of damage dealing. Racing with them is pretty foolish. Making them deal that damage faster, or preventing foes from defending, or preventing foes from damaging is more important.
So screw that if I'm not going to compete for some of the damage glory on occasion. I'm tired of watching the Come and Get Me barbarian do 200 plus points of damage a round or the Two-hander fighter obliterate everything he hits in strike or two. Gods help the creature he crits.
You just want glory. Not teamwork, not success. You just like rolling lots of dice, or like trying to get big numbers. You're proving my point by the way. You cannot keep up with their damage potential.
I'm getting some of that damage glory for myself. They don't need me to control the battlefield as much any longer. They don't even need my haste as much. I'd rather have a build that lets me as the arcane caster hammer.
You're getting the table scraps. Likewise, you have the opportunity to do the stuff they can't do, cannot hope to do, and multiply the power of your team drastically, and yet all you're caught up with is some sort of bizarre idea of damage=glory. Even if you buy that, what happens when you come up against one of those 400 HP barbarians who deals 200+ damage per round? You could either do your 100 damage per round, or you could slam him with a ton of negative levels, or stop him from getting to the party, or blind him, or slow him so he can't full-attack, or any number of things, and then let your own 400 HP 200+ damage barbarian tear him to pieces.
Congrats, you saved the day. The glory is yours.
Even if you buy that, what happens when you come up against one of those 400 HP barbarians who deals 200+ damage per round? You could either do your 100 damage per round, or you could slam him with a ton of negative levels, or stop him from getting to the party, or blind him, or slow him so he can't full-attack, or any number of things, and then let your own 400 HP 200+ damage barbarian tear him to pieces.
Blast him in 2 rounds from far away?
He has a good fort save -> blinding will get hard
His Will save is buffed by several rage thingies -> slowing and stuff is hard
He has a good CMD and CMB so many disabling spells won't work.
Even if you buy that, what happens when you come up against one of those 400 HP barbarians who deals 200+ damage per round? You could either do your 100 damage per round, or you could slam him with a ton of negative levels, or stop him from getting to the party, or blind him, or slow him so he can't full-attack, or any number of things, and then let your own 400 HP 200+ damage barbarian tear him to pieces.Blast him in 2 rounds from far away?
He has a good fort save -> blinding will get hard
His Will save is buffed by several rage thingies -> slowing and stuff is hard
He has a good CMD and CMB so many disabling spells won't work.
Negative levels always work unless he has a spellcasting buddy. If he has a spell casting buddy why doesn't he have energy immunity, or spellturning, or stupidly high SR. Create pit allows only a reflex save, same as most blasting spells, and doesn't allow spell resistance or energy resistance. Blasting someone does nothing to slow him from ripping you to pieces, create pit stalls him for at least 1 round and gives your fighter an extra turn if not more of wailing on him. Combine with move earth and he's suffocating no save.
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I can end encounters with blasting 70 to 80% of time without even using top end blasting. This is in actual level appropriate modules, not your theorycrafting.He was not theorycrafting. Much of his wizard handbook came from an actual game.
I can't be sure, but based on what Maddigan has written, I get the strong feeling that he plays with a group of players who have made characters that have been optimized to be self-reliant.
In my case, I'm the primary optimizer in our group. Players in my group will make characters that don't have 400 hp or do hundreds of points of damage per round. They continually ignore magic items that promote maneuverability (even when I practically beg them not to), and are often in positions where they can't properly attack an enemy that has taken a positional advantage over them.
My guide came from me going through the options one by one and evaluating them. I absolutely have not cast every spell in the game, even though I have rated them in my guide. Many of my ratings are in fact pure theorycrafting (how I think the spell would work, based on the mechanics). Every and all spells I've rated blue or green from levels 1-5 I have absolutely cast, most of them many times, but most campaigns I play in tend not to go to really high levels, so many of those upper level spells are once again, evaluations based on mechanics, not on actual game use.
It was inspired by an actual campaign I played in. It was a group I had never played with before this campaign (expedition to the demonweb pits).
When I first joined the campaign, the GM (who I played with in another group), told me to optimize my character because the campaign had been extremely deadly. I came in with a charging goliath lion totem barbarian/fighter and wreaked havoc on my first session. The results of my optimized character were that a PC fatality still happened, but in every combat, I was overshadowing the entire party. No other player had even remotely optimized. Worst of all, there was another goliath fighter, and I was doing 10x the damage he was every round, and he had absolutely nothing over me. I felt like a glory-hog. As a new player to this group, that was an uncomfortable situation.
I retired the charger after the first session, and came in with an Archivist healer/blaster. PC deaths continued every session, and a few sessions after that, we were TPK'd (at least I was the last to go down).
We all made new chracters, and I decided that it was time to pull out all the stops and make my specialty, a wizard. Everyone else made characters too, and it seemed like they just gave up trying to survive. We had a sorcerer-blaster with a low Con score, a drunken master/monk, a Ranger with a bow (this was 3.5, where archery wasn't good), and a fighter with sword and board (no twf shield bashing). I came in with a battlefield control wizard.
Our first session with these new characters, in our first battle, the players looked at me in shock when I explained that I didn't have fireball, or any other damage-dealing spell. I controlled the battlefield carefully, making sure that threats were managed to prevent PC death, and they whittled down the enemies, one by one, battle by battle. When the session ended, it was our first ever where no PC died.
Session after session, we won every fight, and there were no PC deaths. In fact, at the end of the campaign, no PC died after my wizard was introduced to the party. Using spells, I was able to put the party in a situation where they would win every battle, every time. This was a startling turnaround from the death grinder the campaign had been up to that point.
As the campaign went on, the players would over and over try to convince me to give up my "useless" character and make one that could share in their glory. I was astounded that they didn't figure out why they weren't constantly dying anymore, but politely declined, and continued to enable their victories until the end of the campaign.
When the campaign ended, I was totally inspired to make my "Being a god" wizard thread for 3.5. My regular group understand the effect that my wizards are having on combat, so my wizard only got labelled "useless" in that one campaign, but it's become a favorite story of mine.
I have never, however, played in a group where everyone was as focused on character optimization as me. I'm not sure how that would change the dynamic of party tactics, I certainly don't visualize it changing much, but I admit, in that case, I am only speculating.
Sorry for the long post.
good stuff
I have used many of those spells before your guide even came out for NPC's and PC's so I can attest that it is not just theory craft. I almost TPK'd a party using black tentacles, and I used entangle(yeah I know it is divine) to get away. The point is that it is a control spell. Being debuffed as a player sucks. What's that -4 to your attack rolls. No power attack for you. Well you can, but your chances of it hitting just went down.
PS: Ray of enfeeblement was nerfed, but it still works especially when going against one big bad guy even when the save is made. My group tends to focus on getting a really high AC though so that may be a group issue which makes those minuses really matter.
Negative levels always work unless he has a spellcasting buddy. If he has a spell casting buddy why doesn't he have energy immunity, or spellturning, or stupidly high SR. Create pit allows only a reflex save, same as most blasting spells, and doesn't allow spell resistance or energy resistance. Blasting someone does nothing to slow him from ripping you to pieces, create pit stalls him for at least 1 round and gives your fighter an extra turn if not more of wailing on him. Combine with move earth and he's suffocating no save.
1. Enervation has a range of close. So if you can enervate him, he can pounce you.
2. Create pit has a reflex NEGATES. Also a close range. So if you are feeling lucky today you can ready on his pounce charge. Probably you'll live to tell the tale.3. Its debatable if you can close a pit with a spell that has a 10ft deep descriptor and specifically says "its to slow to trap creatures". If you can close a 70ft deep hole with a 10ft deep spell, that is.
Your best chance is, again, the always loved, ever broken, Force Cage ( though reflex negates here again) or Reverse Gravity.
Or you just blast him.
But on the term of RG: I would recommend anyone not using this spell in their campaign. Its a spell against which like 90% of all high CR monsters/characters can't do anything and it allows no save and if its not in a 10ft high dungeon (which will get used alot if you use that spell alot) everything is screwed...
Even if you buy that, what happens when you come up against one of those 400 HP barbarians who deals 200+ damage per round? You could either do your 100 damage per round, or you could slam him with a ton of negative levels, or stop him from getting to the party, or blind him, or slow him so he can't full-attack, or any number of things, and then let your own 400 HP 200+ damage barbarian tear him to pieces.Blast him in 2 rounds from far away?
He has a good fort save -> blinding will get hard
His Will save is buffed by several rage thingies -> slowing and stuff is hard
He has a good CMD and CMB so many disabling spells won't work.
Glitterdust is save or be blinded. Or I could just throw up a wall of stone and let the barbarian carve through it. Or throw a sleet storm to slow him down, no save. The druid could drop entangle and give him 80 ft of slowed movement to cross over before he can reach the party. Or I could cast Solid Fog and watch him grind to a halt, or have to go around it. Or I could throw a dispel or greater dispel magic to strip him of his awesome buffs. Calm emotions removes his rage. Waves or ray of exhaustion will fatigue him on a good save, giving him penalties and preventing him from running or charging (Hahaha, the barbarian can't run, *raspberry*). I could create a wall of meatshields he has to cut through to get the the party while the warriors are focus-firing on him from a distance (and if I have two rounds to blast the barbarian freely before he closes, then summoning monsters is easy).
The tale of his inspiration.
It's funny to me that your group didn't seem to realize what was happening, why is it so many people seem to think killing power is the only form of power in D&D? (or even the best????)
good stuffI have used many of those spells before your guide even came out for NPC's and PC's so I can attest that it is not just theory craft. I almost TPK'd a party using black tentacles, and I used entangle(yeah I know it is divine) to get away. The point is that it is a control spell. Being debuffed as a player sucks. What's that -4 to your attack rolls. No power attack for you. Well you can, but your chances of it hitting just went down.
PS: Ray of enfeeblement was nerfed, but it still works especially when going against one big bad guy even when the save is made. My group tends to focus on getting a really high AC though so that may be a group issue which makes those minuses really matter.
I was probably too hard on RoE. Yes, it got nerfed, but there is still value.
I was thinking of getting my mephit a wand of RoE to hit single tough monsters with. They will almost certainly save, but it could still be worth an action from a familiar.
Glitterdust is save or be blinded. Or I could just throw up a wall of stone and let the barbarian carve through it. Or throw a sleet storm to slow him down, no save. The druid could drop entangle and give him 80 ft of slowed movement to cross over before he can reach the party. Or I could cast Solid Fog and watch him grind to a halt, or have to go around it. Or I could throw a dispel or greater dispel magic to strip him of his awesome buffs. Calm emotions removes his rage. Waves or ray of exhaustion will fatigue him on a good save, giving him penalties and preventing him from running or charging (Hahaha, the barbarian can't run, *raspberry*). I could create a wall of meatshields he has to cut through to get the the party while the warriors are focus-firing on him from a distance (and if I have two rounds to blast the barbarian freely before he closes, then summoning monsters is easy).Even if you buy that, what happens when you come up against one of those 400 HP barbarians who deals 200+ damage per round? You could either do your 100 damage per round, or you could slam him with a ton of negative levels, or stop him from getting to the party, or blind him, or slow him so he can't full-attack, or any number of things, and then let your own 400 HP 200+ damage barbarian tear him to pieces.Blast him in 2 rounds from far away?
He has a good fort save -> blinding will get hard
His Will save is buffed by several rage thingies -> slowing and stuff is hard
He has a good CMD and CMB so many disabling spells won't work.
I don't know why you are so eager to SLOW him (OMG I SLOWED HIM!1111) if you can just kill him as well. That would at least permanently solve that problem?
1. Enervation has a range of close. So if you can enervate him, he can pounce you.
A fatigued barbarian can't pounce.
2. Create pit has a reflex NEGATES. Also a close range. So if you are feeling lucky today you can ready on his pounce charge. Probably you'll live to tell the tale.
You can cast it in front of your party and now the barbarian cannot charge you. No pounce for him.
Your best chance is, again, the always loved, ever broken, Force Cage ( though reflex negates here again) or Reverse Gravity.
Or you just blast him.
Or you could buff everyone in the party with haste, let them shoot at the barbarian, while you make it impossible for the barbarian to charge the party. You can do this in 1 round, since haste can be quickened, since all you have to do to prevent him from charging is A) blind him, B) fatigue him, C) make the ground difficult terrain, D) put an obstacle in the way. You could also E) displace your Fighter so the barbarian's damage drops 50% due to concealment, or slow the barbarian which on a failed save means he can't do more than take a single attack per round.
But on the term of RG: I would recommend anyone not using this spell in their campaign. Its a spell against which like 90% of all high CR monsters/characters can't do anything and it allows no save and if its not in a 10ft high dungeon (which will get used alot if you use that spell alot) everything is screwed...
I disagree. By the time you get reverse gravity, most foes should have some options for getting free. A potion of fly is good enough, if I recall correctly.
1. Enervation has a range of close. So if you can enervate him, he can pounce you.A fatigued barbarian can't pounce.
2. Create pit has a reflex NEGATES. Also a close range. So if you are feeling lucky today you can ready on his pounce charge. Probably you'll live to tell the tale.You can cast it in front of your party and now the barbarian cannot charge you. No pounce for him.
Your best chance is, again, the always loved, ever broken, Force Cage ( though reflex negates here again) or Reverse Gravity.
Or you just blast him.Or you could buff everyone in the party with haste, let them shoot at the barbarian, while you make it impossible for the barbarian to charge the party. You can do this in 1 round, since haste can be quickened, since all you have to do to prevent him from charging is A) blind him, B) fatigue him, C) make the ground difficult terrain, D) put an obstacle in the way. You could also E) displace your Fighter so the barbarian's damage drops 50% due to concealment, or slow the barbarian which on a failed save means he can't do more than take a single attack per round.
Jeeez. It has been proven over and over again that you can blast for 250+ DMG per round easily. And you can probably even mix in a dazing spell on a high ref save. That would even DISABLE him.
With that damage you can easily kill him in two rounds or one, if you have other damage dealers, too. He can't pounce then, too!
Instead you use your spell slots to maybe slow him, blocking his way, or even making him attack less often.
All of this will probably still result in damage for your team and having your team have to waste resources.
Killing him is faster and uses up less resources in the end.
I disagree. By the time you get reverse gravity, most foes should have some options for getting free. A potion of fly is good enough, if I recall correctly.
How many monsters did you see in your career which have potions? Not in my Bestiary at least.
I don't know why you are so eager to SLOW him (OMG I SLOWED HIM!1111) if you can just kill him as well. That would at least permanently solve that problem?Glitterdust is save or be blinded. Or I could just throw up a wall of stone and let the barbarian carve through it. Or throw a sleet storm to slow him down, no save. The druid could drop entangle and give him 80 ft of slowed movement to cross over before he can reach the party. Or I could cast Solid Fog and watch him grind to a halt, or have to go around it. Or I could throw a dispel or greater dispel magic to strip him of his awesome buffs. Calm emotions removes his rage. Waves or ray of exhaustion will fatigue him on a good save, giving him penalties and preventing him from running or charging (Hahaha, the barbarian can't run, *raspberry*). I could create a wall of meatshields he has to cut through to get the the party while the warriors are focus-firing on him from a distance (and if I have two rounds to blast the barbarian freely before he closes, then summoning monsters is easy).Even if you buy that, what happens when you come up against one of those 400 HP barbarians who deals 200+ damage per round? You could either do your 100 damage per round, or you could slam him with a ton of negative levels, or stop him from getting to the party, or blind him, or slow him so he can't full-attack, or any number of things, and then let your own 400 HP 200+ damage barbarian tear him to pieces.Blast him in 2 rounds from far away?
He has a good fort save -> blinding will get hard
His Will save is buffed by several rage thingies -> slowing and stuff is hard
He has a good CMD and CMB so many disabling spells won't work.
I don't know why you're so eager to poop away your spell slots. Even the best damage output that previous posters could muster was around 200 damage IF they failed their save and had no resistances or protections against the damage. If I slow the barbarian, the fight is effectively over for him. My allies mop the floor with him, we win. I can even slap him with multiple saves per round. While others might be able to use various class features and metamagic hijinks to try and deal enough damage that the barbarian will be annoyed, I will instead throw out a quickened slow followed by a persistent slow. Since I probably also took Spell Focus and Greater Focus (Transmutation) for spells like Slow, Baleful Polymorph, Flesh to Stone, Polymorph Any Object, and similar, my basic save DC is around DC 25 for the 3rd level slow, and possibly much higher if I also tossed on Heighten spell or have an Int higher than +10 (+10 assumes I started with a mere 14, so it could easily be +3 higher).
So the barbarian suddenly has to make 3 DC 25-27 will saves or get completely hosed. He has a +6 base. Let's say he has a +4 from Mighty Rage (assuming he's a 20th level barbarian) so that's +10. Then for poops and giggles let's say he has a +5 cloak of resistance, and a +3 Wisdom. That gives him a +18 or 30% chance to fail. Now if he saves vs every last one of them, then he is just as lethal as if I had blasted the heck out of him. If he fails so much as a single one of them, then he's useless for the next 20 rounds or so.
Of course, that's assuming I was dead-set on slowing him. I have far more options than just slowing him, which I noted in my previous post.
How many monsters did you see in your career which have potions? Not in my Bestiary at least.
Any monster that includes "NPC gear" or treasure values that support them.
How many monsters did you see in your career which have potions? Not in my Bestiary at least.Any monster that includes "NPC gear" or treasure values that support them.
Treasure values are not for equipment of the monster.
So the only ones with a chance of having such potions are NPCs.
How many monsters did you see in your career which have potions? Not in my Bestiary at least.Any monster that includes "NPC gear" or treasure values that support them.Treasure values are not for equipment of the monster.
So the only ones with a chance of having such potions are NPCs.
This is demonstrate-ably false. If treasure includes magic items and consumables, then intelligent creatures will take advantage of that. Creatures can and will use equipment if they are able, even if they do not have standard NPC gear. Creatures such as balors and mariliths are prime examples of this. Likewise, it is very meta-gamist (and foolish) to assume that intelligent enemies will not have or use the treasure they posses. If part of a marilith's treasure horde also includes a +1 human-bane longsword, then the marilith will likely wield this in addition to the masterwork longswords he has by default.
Likewise, assuming that a pit fiend couldn't just pop a potion of mage armor, out of the thousands of gold pieces worth of treasure it has just seems stupid. Even the 3E/3.5 DMG discussed this phenomena (if you want to call it that), noting that it is poor writing if you have the party cleave through a bunch of NPCs only for them to find some magic items that the NPCs probably should have been using.
EDIT: Likewise you can regularly encounter enemies as early as 1st level who make use of things like potions. CR 1/4 kobolds, and CR 1/3 orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, humans, adepts, experts, warriors, PC-classed characters, and so forth all can comfortably support a potion or some alchemical items in their NPC equipment assuming the medium experience progression. The fast experience progression means they will have even more at their option.
So yes, it is entirely possible to encounter CR 1/3 orcs who pop a potion of enlarge self, or slather an oil of magic weapon on their bows before unleashing volleys at some poor shmoe. Lead blade and gravity bow are also fun choices.
EDIT 2: It is akin to saying that all hobgoblins must carry a shield and a longsword and be 1st level Fighters, just because that is the sample hobgoblin in the Bestiary, or that Mariliths couldn't use a weapon other than longswords, despite being proficient in every simple and martial weapon.
So the barbarian suddenly has to make 3 DC 25-27 will saves or get completely hosed. He has a +6 base. Let's say he has a +4 from Mighty Rage (assuming he's a 20th level barbarian) so that's +10. Then for poops and giggles let's say he has a +5 cloak of resistance, and a +3 Wisdom. That gives him a +18 or 30% chance to fail. Now if he saves vs every last one of them, then he is just as lethal as if I had blasted the heck out of him. If he fails so much as a single one of them, then he's useless for the next 20 rounds or so.
I'm pretty sure it's illegal to make a barbarian without superstition, so it's more like 6 (base) +7 (superstition) +5 (cloak) +3 (wis) for 21. It will be higher if he's human, or dwarf, or heck even halfling(only by one).
Not that that suggests blasting is the better option. His reflex save should be a few points higher then his will.
Treasure values are not for equipment of the monster.
So the only ones with a chance of having such potions are NPCs.
So if that treasure contains a magical suit of armor, a magical weapon, and a crate of potions, you don't let the monster use them if able to? Just because they aren't listed in his stat block?
How many monsters did you see in your career which have potions? Not in my Bestiary at least.Any monster that includes "NPC gear" or treasure values that support them.Treasure values are not for equipment of the monster.
So the only ones with a chance of having such potions are NPCs.
Monsters are NPC's. <----I get what you are saying, but I was just making a point.
Now I don't generally give stock monsters treasure, but I then again I don't generally use stock monsters either. Many people don't just pull a monster out of the book and just throw it into the game if the PC's are really optimized. They will be modified to account for possible weaknesses so by that level. Many high level monsters can fly or teleport anyway so the potion most likely won't even be needed since most monsters of that level are dragons and outsiders.
So if that treasure contains a magical suit of armor, a magical weapon, and a crate of potions, you don't let the monster use them if able to? Just because they aren't listed in his stat block?
Treasure values are not for equipment of the monster.
So the only ones with a chance of having such potions are NPCs.
If a monster has it listed directly in the stat block he gets to use it. The monsters in the book which is what AlienFreak is referring to, don't have specific items listed for the most part. The stat block says something like standard treasure meaning the GM gets to decide what that will be. Many GM's will have this spread out throughout the monster's lair, and not directly on the monster in order to not have to explain why the monster did not use it.
As for equipping monsters it changes the CR so whether that treasure is something the monster can use or will use should be on a group to group basis. If I am GM for casual gamers the monsters does not get to any extras, but if I am GM'ing for an optimized group then my dragons get amulet of mighty fist, wands, scrolls, and so on. My mariliths might get better longswords, or even scimitars to increase the chances of crits. I might even get rid of useless feats.
With that said the blasting wizard is not really that impressive. He has to get past SR, hope someone fails a save, has no energy resistance, and the monster still wants to kill the party. That might mean the blaster has to cast a 2nd spell. It is easier to just cast haste or debuff the monster(many ways have already been mentioned), and let the others handle it.
So the barbarian suddenly has to make 3 DC 25-27 will saves or get completely hosed. He has a +6 base. Let's say he has a +4 from Mighty Rage (assuming he's a 20th level barbarian) so that's +10. Then for poops and giggles let's say he has a +5 cloak of resistance, and a +3 Wisdom. That gives him a +18 or 30% chance to fail. Now if he saves vs every last one of them, then he is just as lethal as if I had blasted the heck out of him. If he fails so much as a single one of them, then he's useless for the next 20 rounds or so.
I'm pretty sure it's illegal to make a barbarian without superstition, so it's more like 6 (base) +7 (superstition) +5 (cloak) +3 (wis) for 21. It will be higher if he's human, or dwarf, or heck even halfling(only by one).
Not that that suggests blasting is the better option. His reflex save should be a few points higher then his will.
So every barbarian is going to have superstition? Well I was leaving most of my arguments with basics, since I tend to not step outside of core with most of my NPCs, with the exception of the odd spell now and then (such as gravity bow, it's nice). But yeah, we could also bump the save DC up another +2 since I was assuming we started with a 14 Int.
Or we chould, again, just do something completely different. Putting a hole in the ground means no charging, so no pouncing. Yay, I used a dinky low-level spell to shut down the offensive prowess of a 20th level barbarian.
This is demonstrate-ably false. If treasure includes magic items and consumables, then intelligent creatures will take advantage of that. Creatures can and will use equipment if they are able, even if they do not have standard NPC gear. Creatures such as balors and mariliths are prime examples of this. Likewise, it is very meta-gamist (and foolish) to assume that intelligent enemies will not have or use the treasure they posses. If part of a marilith's treasure horde also includes a +1 human-bane longsword, then the marilith will likely wield this in addition to the masterwork longswords he has by default.Likewise, assuming that a pit fiend couldn't just pop a potion of mage armor, out of the thousands of gold pieces worth of treasure it has just seems stupid. Even the 3E/3.5 DMG discussed this phenomena (if you want to call it that), noting that it is poor writing if you have the party cleave through a bunch of NPCs only for them to find some magic items that the NPCs probably should have been using.
EDIT: Likewise you can regularly encounter enemies as early as 1st level who make use of things like potions. CR 1/4 kobolds, and CR 1/3 orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, humans, adepts, experts, warriors, PC-classed characters, and so forth all can comfortably support a potion or some alchemical items in their NPC equipment assuming the medium experience progression. The fast experience progression means they will have even more at their option.
So yes, it is entirely possible to encounter CR 1/3 orcs who pop a potion of enlarge self, or slather an oil of magic weapon on their bows before unleashing volleys at some poor shmoe....
So you make your enemies just have 30k Wish scrolls as soon as they have more than 30k treasure which they willingly use to emulate 6th level spells they happen to need?
Of course that would be smart on the side of the Monsters/NPCs... but are you sure your players will like ending up with no loot just because the enemies always use up their treasure before they can kill them?
This is just wrong on so many levels...
There is a reason why the NPC Wealth Table has a field for "LIMITED USE" items.
You might notice that your Monsters in the Bestiary lack this field in their treasure entry.
There is a reason why the NPC Wealth Table has a field for "LIMITED USE" items.
You might notice that your Monsters in the Bestiary lack this field in their treasure entry.
Reading AF's post made me wonder if I had been doing it wrong.
Everything below is from the PRD. It is telling you how to read the monster's stat block.
Introduction
While each monster is a unique creature, many possess similar special attacks, defenses, and qualities. Unique abilities are described below the monster's stat block.Treasure: The exact value of the creature's treasure depends on if you're running a slow, medium, or fast game, as summarized on Table: Treasure Values per Encounter. In cases where a creature has specific magical gear assigned to it, the assumption is a medium game—if you play a fast or slow game, you'll want to adjust the monster's gear as appropriate. “Standard” treasure indicates the total value of the creature's treasure is that of a CR equal to the average party level, as listed on Table: Treasure Values per Encounter. “Double” or “triple” treasure indicates the creature has double or triple this standard value. “Incidental” indicates the creature has half this standard value, and then only within the confines of its lair. “None” indicates that the creature normally has no treasure (as is typical for an unintelligent creature that has no real lair, although such creatures are often used to guard treasures of varying amounts). “NPC gear” indicates the monster has treasure as normal for an NPC of a level equal to the monster's CR.
I think it is fair to assume that unless "NPC Gear" is in the statblock that the monster is assumed to not be using any gear. Standard treasure and NPC treasure are different terms for different reasons.
With that said I still don't see the base for blasting.
Let's says you are level 20(most campaigns never go this high), and you are dropping blasting spells that do 200ish points of damage if the save is failed. You have spent at least 4 or 5 feats that could have made you more versatile and more efficient.
The argument that "everyone should be a blaster" falls on its face since it only limits your options, and does not expand them. All the while you don't get any stronger for it.
If the goalpost has been moved to "blasters can do a lot of damage" then the argument can stop now because nobody is saying blasters can't do damage. It is just not the best option the majority of the time.
edit:added quotation block
Reading AF's post made me wonder if I had been doing it wrong.Everything below is from the PRD. It is telling you how to read the monster's stat block.
Introduction
While each monster is a unique creature, many possess similar special attacks, defenses, and qualities. Unique abilities are described below the monster's stat block.Treasure: The exact value of the creature's treasure depends on if you're running a slow, medium, or fast game, as summarized on Table: Treasure Values per Encounter. In cases where a creature has specific magical gear assigned to it, the assumption is a medium game—if you play a fast or slow game, you'll want to adjust the monster's gear as appropriate. “Standard” treasure indicates the total value of the creature's treasure is that of a CR equal to the average party level, as listed on Table: Treasure Values per Encounter. “Double” or “triple” treasure indicates the creature has double or triple this standard value. “Incidental” indicates the creature has half this standard value, and then only within the confines of its lair. “None” indicates that the creature normally has no treasure (as is typical for an unintelligent creature that has no real lair, although such creatures are often used to guard treasures of varying amounts). “NPC gear” indicates the monster has treasure as normal for an NPC of a level equal to the monster's CR.
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I think it is fair to assume that unless "NPC Gear" is in the statblock that the monster is assumed to not be using any gear. Standard treasure and NPC treasure are different terms for different reasons.
Only NPCs use gear. If a Monster has NPC Gear it uses it if not then not.
Especially using their Treasure (which is adjusted so the players reach their Character Wealth) on items which lose their value after being used (and letting the monster use them) is just wrong.
It not only meddles with the CR rating it also betrays the players because they don't get the treasure they earned.
With that said I still don't see the base for blasting.
Let's says you are level 20(most campaigns never go this high), and you are dropping blasting spells that do 200ish points of damage if the save is failed. You have spent at least 4 or 5 feats that could have made you more versatile and more efficient.
1. And with 1 feat out of them (dazing spell for example) you can make a supreme control spell out of any blasting spell.
Especially considering Reflex Saves are usually the worst for monsters it will not only deal major damage but also completely disable them for a few rounds.2. at level 20 you will more likely deal 300 damage+ per round even without a save.
Scorching Rays (Acid with Dualblooded Orc/Dragon Sorc and Evocation Wizard with Magical Lineage (Scorching Ray))
intensify 3
4*4d6+32+10
maximize 6
106+32+10
quicken 10-1
= 148
intensify 3
4*4d6+32+10
maximize 6
106+32+10
empower 8-1
136+32+10
= 178
( you throw in another +2 Spell Level Metamagic here if you like to throw around your 9th level slots :))
-> 326 DMG
Plus you can throw in a metamagic rod (dazing spell) for him to have two times against you or be dazed for 2 (4) rounds. Or if you read it the other way around it would be 9/8 or 17 rounds...
Btw if you wanna max it our for even more damage go:
intensify 3
4*4d6+32+10
maximize 6
106+32+10
empower 8-1
= 178
intensify 3
4*4d6+32+10
maximize 6
106+32+10
empower 8-1
136+32+10
= 178
->356 DMG
Use a quicken rod for the first spell and then either keep it or if you want dazing spell that bad drop it and quickdraw a dazing spell rod...
You might also want to note that those are only 7th level spells and thus as a 19th level wizard you can have quite a lot of them ready...
P.S.: unless you come around with the bad wording practice of Paizo and say that Intensified Spell doesn't work with it.
In my eyes it does and should work with it.
So every barbarian is going to have superstition? Well I was leaving most of my arguments with basics, since I tend to not step outside of core with most of my NPCs, with the exception of the odd spell now and then (such as gravity bow, it's nice). But yeah, we could also bump the save DC up another +2 since I was assuming we started with a 14 Int.
Or we chould, again, just do something completely different. Putting a hole in the ground means no charging, so no pouncing. Yay, I used a dinky low-level spell to shut down the offensive prowess of a 20th level barbarian.
Not taking Superstition on a barbarian is like taking conjuration as a opposition school, I think. And create pit only stops a charge if they lack the ability to make a dc 10 acrobatics check. I am by no means suggesting that a high level wizard can't stop a charge, they have a host of ways of doing that.
Not taking Superstition on a barbarian is like taking conjuration as a opposition school, I think. And create pit only stops a charge if they lack the ability to make a dc 10 acrobatics check. I am by no means suggesting that a high level wizard can't stop a charge, they have a host of ways of doing that.
So every barbarian is going to have superstition? Well I was leaving most of my arguments with basics, since I tend to not step outside of core with most of my NPCs, with the exception of the odd spell now and then (such as gravity bow, it's nice). But yeah, we could also bump the save DC up another +2 since I was assuming we started with a 14 Int.
Or we chould, again, just do something completely different. Putting a hole in the ground means no charging, so no pouncing. Yay, I used a dinky low-level spell to shut down the offensive prowess of a 20th level barbarian.
He means to ready it on his charge so he gets a reflex save or fall into it.
So you make your enemies just have 30k Wish scrolls as soon as they have more than 30k treasure which they willingly use to emulate 6th level spells they happen to need?
Nope, not at all. Most enemies can't use scrolls. Most can use potions though, and a 750 gp potion out of 30,000 gp worth of treasure is pretty mild. Likewise, generally you don't make most treasure hordes out of single large-value items. There's usually a fair amount of coin, gems, consumables, permanent magic items, and so forth.
So yeah, if a maralith's treasure includes a +2 cloak of resistance, a belt of strength +2, a potion of fly, and a potion of blur, in addition to anything else, you can believe she is going to be wearing those when the PCs fight her, because it would be amazingly stupid for her not to use those items. "Oh here, there's a lot of treasure in my non-existent back pocket, or the chest in the room right behind me, much of it which would make me stronger, but I'm not wearing it 'cause it's not listed as part of my default statblock" is pretty dumb.
Of course that would be smart on the side of the Monsters/NPCs... but are you sure your players will like ending up with no loot just because the enemies always use up their treasure before they can kill them?
This is just wrong on so many levels...There is a reason why the NPC Wealth Table has a field for "LIMITED USE" items.
Yeah, and it also says that they aren't exact. They are good starting points for determining what NPCs have. However, an NPC who opts to wear studded leather instead of scale mail might pack a potion of cure light wounds, enlarge person, or longstrider.
You might notice that your Monsters in the Bestiary lack this field in their treasure entry.
Yep. Unless they have equipment pre-selected for them, such as the marilith who is expected to have at least some masterwork longswords, they usually have entries such as none, standard, double, triple. How much is standard, double, or triple treasure? Well for our marilith it would be 98,000 gold pieces worth of treasure if you're using the fast progression.
So what does that treasure include? A +2 sword for 8300 gp? Ok, now one of her longswords is a +2 sword. A +2 cloak of resistance for 4,000 gp? Ok, now she's wearing a cloak of resistance. A +2 ring of protection for 8,000 gp? Guess what she's wearing on one of her 6 hands. An art object worth 12,000 gold pieces? Well that could be the exotic and sexy robes of spidersilk she is wearing that is studded with rubies that accentuate her bosom and embroidered with gold and platinum finishes. Perhaps the treasure horde includes a brooch of shielding. Oh guess what she's wearing. Another 20,000 gp worth of gems? Well she's covered from head to toe in platinum armlets, rings, piercings, and so forth. Her tongue and nipple piercings are worth more than most commoners pull in a month. How about a bag of holding? Well she needs something to store her tropies in, so she carries this on her waist. She's also carrying a lot of platinum and other miscellaneous valuables in her possession.
So how much treasure would she have it she was an NPC with class levels? Oh look, a CR 17 monster on the fast progression has about 96,000 gp to play around with. Hmmm, funny that.
Only NPCs use gear. If a Monster has NPC Gear it uses it if not then not.
Especially using their Treasure (which is adjusted so the players reach their Character Wealth) on items which lose their value after being used (and letting the monster use them) is just wrong.
It not only meddles with the CR rating it also betrays the players because they don't get the treasure they earned.
Which is totally why ogres have equipment, without being NPC-classed, right? Or how gnolls have NPC gear but by your definition aren't NPCs? We should probably take the swords away from the mariliths and balors, also the angels, because they don't have class levels. They apparently just carry around huge piles of random junk that's just worth huge amounts of cash. Also lots of magic items that they are for some reason banned from using? Pfft.
According to the rules, wielding equipment doesn't adjust their CR until they have PC-wealth, which raises it by +1. So a standard CR 17 marilith with enough wealth for a PC of equal level would be CR 18.
He means to ready it on his charge so he gets a reflex save or fall into it.Not taking Superstition on a barbarian is like taking conjuration as a opposition school, I think. And create pit only stops a charge if they lack the ability to make a dc 10 acrobatics check. I am by no means suggesting that a high level wizard can't stop a charge, they have a host of ways of doing that.
So every barbarian is going to have superstition? Well I was leaving most of my arguments with basics, since I tend to not step outside of core with most of my NPCs, with the exception of the odd spell now and then (such as gravity bow, it's nice). But yeah, we could also bump the save DC up another +2 since I was assuming we started with a 14 Int.
Or we chould, again, just do something completely different. Putting a hole in the ground means no charging, so no pouncing. Yay, I used a dinky low-level spell to shut down the offensive prowess of a 20th level barbarian.
Charge
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.
Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.
Lances and Charge Attacks: A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.
Weapons Readied against a Charge: Spears, tridents, and other weapons with the brace feature deal double damage when readied (set) and used against a charging character.
If you show me where it says you can jump and charge, I'll agree. Since you seem insistent on complaining about NPCs using the treasure they actually have access to in the game, I will complain that you're not following the charge rules either.
Which is totally why ogres have equipment, without being NPC-classed, right? Or how gnolls have NPC gear but by your definition aren't NPCs? We should probably take the swords away from the mariliths and balors, also the angels, because they don't have class levels. They apparently just carry around huge piles of random junk that's just worth huge amounts of cash. Also lots of magic items that they are for some reason banned from using? Pfft.
According to the rules, wielding equipment doesn't adjust their CR until they have PC-wealth, which raises it by +1. So a standard CR 17 marilith with enough wealth for a PC of equal level would be CR 18.
1. You are really desperate for an argument supporting your case, or?
The equipment they use is specifically noted in their monster description. Why would they even do such a thing if you use their treasure value as equipment anyway?2. That rule is for NPCs.
Nope, not at all. Most enemies can't use scrolls.
The Marilith has a +26UMD. So I guess players won't get a hell lot of loot once they beat her because she blew half out half of her treasure in scrolls?
And I can perfectly see the Marilith with her Ring of Freedom of Movement and her Mithral Breastplate...
If you show me where it says you can jump and charge, I'll agree. Since you seem insistent on complaining about NPCs using the treasure they actually have access to in the game, I will complain that you're not following the charge rules either.
I'm not complaining about NPC's and there loot. Jumping is part of an action, you are taking an action, therefore you can jump. I would also point out that it doesn't say that a pit stops movement, but we can use our grasp of gravity to deduce that.
Which is totally why ogres have equipment, without being NPC-classed, right? Or how gnolls have NPC gear but by your definition aren't NPCs? We should probably take the swords away from the mariliths and balors, also the angels, because they don't have class levels. They apparently just carry around huge piles of random junk that's just worth huge amounts of cash. Also lots of magic items that they are for some reason banned from using? Pfft.
According to the rules, wielding equipment doesn't adjust their CR until they have PC-wealth, which raises it by +1. So a standard CR 17 marilith with enough wealth for a PC of equal level would be CR 18.1. You are really desperate for an argument supporting your case, or?
The equipment they use is specifically noted in their monster description. Why would they even do such a thing if you use their treasure value as equipment anyway?2. That rule is for NPCs.
So you're saying that orcs cannot use equipment not listed in their statblock? Your argument makes little sense. Mariliths have proficiency with all martial weapons. Are you suggesting that it is somehow cheating to have the marilith wield scimitars instead of longswords? Are you suggesting that weaponry isn't equipment? Are you suggesting that treasure should not contain equipment, or only that the equipment can totally be carried or horded but cannot be touched or used; essentially requiring metagaming at its worst?
Also, according to the Gamemastering section, all creatures are NPCs. Just they have slightly different rules depending on their racial HD and such. They are all listed as being factored into combat as NPCs.
So yes, I want to hear you say it. You think that Mariliths carrying a +3 sword shouldn't use that sword because it's part of her treasure and not the cookie-cutter NPC statblock?
Has there been any discussion in this thread about optimizing for a BlasterCaster™? If not, that's something I would like to discuss, maybe in a separate thread. Or maybe someone can link me to an already-existing thread.
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The only time my party melees need the crowd control and the like is when we face off against another party using said crowd control. But I can't even put a major dragon in direct melee with them and expect that to be a challenge. They'll butcher it.
So do more of that.
Party-on-party are always the most interesting encounters anyway.
Especially using their Treasure (which is adjusted so the players reach their Character Wealth) on items which lose their value after being used (and letting the monster use them) is just wrong.
It not only meddles with the CR rating it also betrays the players...
I'd argue that by not having enemies use items available to them you are betraying your players. You're cheating the players that want to fight intelligent enemies by artificially limiting what their encounters can do. You're cutting out a roleplaying opportunity. You're taking away a good "in world" reason for them to justify the forum loved rocket tag method of fighting.
While CR is a nice starting point to provide balanced encounters not every CR 6 or CR 19 is an equal threat.
Which is totally why ogres have equipment, without being NPC-classed, right? Or how gnolls have NPC gear but by your definition aren't NPCs? We should probably take the swords away from the mariliths and balors, also the angels, because they don't have class levels. They apparently just carry around huge piles of random junk that's just worth huge amounts of cash. Also lots of magic items that they are for some reason banned from using? Pfft.
According to the rules, wielding equipment doesn't adjust their CR until they have PC-wealth, which raises it by +1. So a standard CR 17 marilith with enough wealth for a PC of equal level would be CR 18.1. You are really desperate for an argument supporting your case, or?
The equipment they use is specifically noted in their monster description. Why would they even do such a thing if you use their treasure value as equipment anyway?2. That rule is for NPCs.
So you're saying that orcs cannot use equipment not listed in their statblock? Your argument makes little sense. Mariliths have proficiency with all martial weapons. Are you suggesting that it is somehow cheating to have the marilith wield scimitars instead of longswords? Are you suggesting that weaponry isn't equipment? Are you suggesting that treasure should not contain equipment, or only that the equipment can totally be carried or horded but cannot be touched or used; essentially requiring metagaming at its worst?
Also, according to the Gamemastering section, all creatures are NPCs. Just they have slightly different rules depending on their racial HD and such. They are all listed as being factored into combat as NPCs.
So yes, I want to hear you say it. You think that Mariliths carrying a +3 sword shouldn't use that sword because it's part of her treasure and not the cookie-cutter NPC statblock?
I think he is saying that for purposes of this discussion the stock monsters are assumed to be unaltered for the most part, which I agree with. It is assumed you will pull the monsters straight out of the book and use them. Now of course I don't expect that in a real game for every monster*. They are intelligent and will adjust to the PC's on some level.
I don't think he is saying that every pit fiend or even orc can only use what is in the book.*With that said a GM will most likely switch things up so both sides should be taken into consideration.