Having not played the Savage Barbarian archetype before as a long-term character (thrown them at the PCs a few times as fodder-troops, but that is very different from a PC character looking for more than a few rounds of life!) does anyone have any suggestions on useful builds for the player?
I have pointed out a high dexterity, Bracers of armor and other magical defences incorporated into a sword-and-board build would really mesh quite well with the armorless barbarian as written, and nothing is stopping him from tossing the shield away and dual-wielding to victory, or going for a reach weapon and dancing his way across the battlefield with Acrobatics.
But I am also a little worried about his build. Currently his submitted character (Human Barbarian 1) has a 20-point build of 14 each in Strength and Constitution, Dexterity of 16 (including +2 racial bonus from being Human), Intelligence of 10, Wisdom of 14 and Charisma of 10. Stat-wise I have no arguements, he's kept most scores at 'good' levels and hasn't minmaxed to hell, and seems focused on staying a vanilla Human, putting his favoured class bonus to Hitpoints and has taken Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Two-Bladed Sword) for flavour and put his Human Bonus Feat towards Extra Rage to mask his 'average' Constitution score.
Problem I can see is that even if he takes the full TWF tree, including Two Weapon Defence, he's leaving himself a touch vulnerable to being unable to crack tough Damage Reductions and is also going to heavily depend upon his Rage ability to boost his Strength and Constitution scores in a pitched fight. They're not overwhelming concerns, but I am worried he might be taking the easily-squished path, and I would dearly love some advice on the matter from other gamers.
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Dropping the wisdom a notch and adding that to str would not be out of the question, but the real deal of getting past DR with a barbarian is Witch Hunter rage power. It gives a stacking damage bonus, per hit(meaning more with twf than with one weapon), against just about everyone past level 7. So he's not boned in that regard. Elemental fury abilities too favor multiple attacks, so that is a fair option too.
As to survivability, remember that GMs may allow players to take feats from the Bestiaries. This naturally includes Improved Natural Armor, which the Savage Barbarian is eligible for through her class abilities(as long as unarmored). Buying some natural armor with a couple of feats could well offset the relative lack of ac. Of course, building a barbarian towards having a good ac is an uphill battle, but a couple of points mid-career can help. This just about the only way to retain the whole naked savage shtick.
Finally, I don't suggest taking the complete TWF feat tree, since past Improved TWF, the feat prequisities are pretty harsh. Instead, stopping at Improved TWF(and maybe Rend later on) means you'll have plenty of points left to devote to str. Putting the 4th level stat point to dex and devoting all the later upgrades, including belts, to str works out better in the end. More damage and bonuses to hit that way. TW Defense is pretty useless, all things said, since pales in comparison to just about every AC feat in the books. Dodge, which is pretty weak a feat to beging with, is far better, so I'd rather take that.
Does anyone have any experience with a shield-bashing TWF barbarian? I can't imagine that she'd ever have enough feats?
One of the these days I want to play around with a twf Breaker barbarian hitting stuff with everything from gobling corpses to party members. With Improvised Weapon Mastery, everything is deadly. And gets that nice damage boost from the archetype.
I'd personally consider any 'melee' build without AT LEAST a 16 in strength unworkable (as in, the player will likely be frustrated by an inability to be effective against CR appropriate encounters).
At least, depending on the other people at the table; if everyone is at a similar level of efficacy it may matter less. Comparison can be very important.
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I disagree. Str is nice, but even without the old 2.0 ed bell curve progression, a middling str combined with a full base attack bonus is enough for successful meleer. Especially for a two-weapon fighter, since, without a high pointbuy or good rolls, 16+ str and 15+ dex is a pretty serious investment. Serious enough to make me worried about mental stats.
Then again, I see a lot of 7 charisma 7 int fighters and barbarians on these forums, so I bet I'm in the minority.
14 strength is plenty, especially with rage.
I'm just remembering the 14 str fighter in the game I played in, who was TWF, and hitting on the same rolls as my 12 Str witch did with her longspear. Who, in the few encounters she survived (crit large crossbows = mean), got as many attacks as he did on average due to AOO's with reach.
Without intending, my spellcaster was as accurate and arguably almost as effective in melee as the fighter, because he didn't focus enough on hitting/damage.
I'm certain he did not enjoy that.
Rage may make the difference, but I was just commenting based on past observation.
Nadhia (this character, details in profile) is a character I play in a two-player Second Darkness campaign. The GM doesn't pull any punches (in fact makes the encounters harder than by-the-book) and our action economy is obviously low since it is just me and a buddy. He's gone a ranged/buffing bard route, and Nadhia here is a highly-defensive barbarian. To compensate for everything though, we *are* two levels higher than the recommended levels of the PDFs.
Nadhia has almost exactly the same starting stats at level 1 as the char mentioned by OP, though has the Wisdom dropped to 10 in favor of higher Dex. She also makes extensive use of superstition (and the aforementioned Witch Hunter rage power) to have near impenetrable saves. She has great AC, even while raging (better actually, when in guarded stance). She has the chaos totem to get DR X/lawful (where X is half-barbarian-level) which makes up for her lack of DR otherwise.
She produces very respectable damage output - but damage *is* something she's given up (relatively) in favor of high defenses. The combination of great AC, great Saves, great DR, and great HP makes for a very survivable character that quite simply out-lasts whatever gets thrown at us.
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Yeah, I think it's against the intuition of pretty much anyone to make a twf barbarian. The class just screams of hefting a poleaxe and burning Lindisfarne again(shores in flames, one rode to asa bay, etc), but barbarians are so stacked with accuracy boni(rage, greater rage, reckless abandon) that fighting with two weapons works surprisingly well. And since you get that rage damage bonus several times instead of multiplying it 1.5 time, as with two-handed weapons, the only cost and contra is the number of feats needed to get it working.
That's pretty academic btw, some folks just need the two most important feats(Double Slice and TWF) to enjoy. Me, I like getting another attack, especially since this is a full-bab class, so -5 to hit is nothing, but the Rend feat is pretty nice and barbarians are one of the few classes with high enough str to make it wortwhile.
Note that they can use natural attacks without taking off-hand penalties, so they could take the Beast Totem powers for the claw attacks and fight with both without needing to invest in the TWF tree at all.
Also, take a look at the Beaststrike Club weapon. It counts as a natural weapon of your choice for the purposes of feats, spells, etc. That means you could get the fun and flavor of natural attacks, while still gaining iterative attacks from a high BAB. It also means they could take things like Improved Natural attack, an Amulet of Mighty Fists, and the Strong Jaw or Magic Fang spells to increase all their attacks.
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Natural weapon rager is pretty damn awesome in it's own right. Especially since Animal Fury is a primary attack now(after GMG confirmation). It just suffers a lot without a magic mart or a friendly druid. Naturally(phaw!) multiclassing with a ranger is a nice option, since they retain the bab and gain all the nasty natural weapon spells.
Have them consider taking a level or two of monk. The alignment requirement isn't a huge issue, as a monk who ceases to be lawful retains all their monk abilities. Two levels of monk would net them extra AC, better unarmed damage, boosted saves, some decent class skills, evasion, and two bonus feats that you don't have to meet the prereqs for, as well as Improved Unarmed Strike which is a prereq for a number of other feats.
wear armor.
Seriously, until you get to level 10, you don't even have the AC of a chain shirt, so don't bother.
Remember that Celestial +3 chainmail stuff that has a max dex of +8 (26 dex to take advantage of) for +17 ac? You beat it with bracers at like 18 dex, (which you can keep pumping), and bracers go to +8, not +5 IIRC
I have this awesome image of a really tough looking shirtless tribal guy with a shield and spear. not the most mechanically optimal guy, Better with a keen Scimitar (or rhoka) (Crit on a 15) instead, but you do have the feats to make a Shield Master
1 Two-Weapon Fighting
1 Imp Shield Bash
3 Power Attack
5 ?Shield focus? maybe ?Pushing assault?
7 Shield Slam
9 Imp TWF
11 Shield Master
13 Two Weapon Rend
15 Bashing Finish
17 Stunning Assault
19 *have a cookie*
sorry, i first thought about this working on a Savage Dragon Disciple, which i also think is cool. loose some rage powers to get form of the dragon and equivalent AC with no dex limits. slower BAB tho.
sorry too tired to think new thoughts, we'll see if this still makes sense tomorrow...
Just to see what it looks like at 1st level:
SAVAGE BARBARIAN CR 1/2
Male Human (Ulfen) Barbarian (Savage Barbarian) 1
CG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +5
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DEFENSE
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AC 15, touch 13, flat-footed 12 (+2 shield, +3 Dex)
hp 15 (1d12+2)
Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +2
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OFFENSE
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Spd 40 ft.
Melee Greataxe +3 (1d12+3/20/x3) or
Handaxe +3 (1d6+3/20/x2) or
Heavy Steel Shield with spikes (1d6+2/20/x2) or
TWF Handaxe +1 (1d6+1/20/x3) and Shield, Heavy Steel +1 (1d6+2/20/x2)
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STATISTICS
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Str 15, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 10
Base Atk +1; CMB +3; CMD 16
Feats Improved Shield Bash, Two-weapon Fighting
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +5, Climb +4, Escape Artist +1, Fly +1, Intimidate +4, Perception +5, Ride +1, Stealth +1, Survival +5, Swim +0
Languages Common, Skald
SQ Fast Movement +10 (Ex), Rage (6 rounds/day) (Ex)
Combat Gear Greataxe, Handaxe, Shield Spikes Shield, Heavy Steel;
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Improved Shield Bash You still get your shield bonus while using Shield Bash.
Rage (6 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
DERP! Man, i must have been tired last night, i forgot double slice!
human Imp Shield Bash
1 TWF
3 Double Slice
5 Power Attack
7 Imp TWF
9 Shield Slam
11 Shield Master
13 TWRend
15 Bashing Finish?
17 Stunning Assault
19 *Have a cookie*
(maybe lunge at it, use a bull rush to move them 5 ft back, hit them with lunge, then another bull rush to send them another 5 ft back and they can't full attack you next round.)
Also, about the Savage DD, 4 levels, it basically costs ou Tireless Rage, and trades 2 con from fighty rage for 2 perminant Str, and 3 Rage Powers, but nets you Magic bite/claw/claw, Breath weapon, +4 str, and +1 nat armor (you loose 2 points from barb, but get 3 from draconic blood and disciple) energy resist, and a 2nd level spell.
Mage armor Really helps with AC till you get +4 bracers.
Or you can Cross-Blood in Empyreal or Envenomed and change your casting stat to Wis and get bonuses to Heal, or get Dip as a class skill (lol) and get +2 to Acrobatics Climb and Stealth. you loose some will bonus and your 2nd level spell, but you're a melee fighter, and you already got enlarge person.
That is if you don't mind the potential cheese of "My ancestor was a Celestial [color] Dragon, or a Half Dragon Couatl...
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Natural weapon rager is pretty damn awesome in it's own right. Especially since Animal Fury is a primary attack now(after GMG confirmation). It just suffers a lot without a magic mart or a friendly druid. Naturally(phaw!) multiclassing with a ranger is a nice option, since they retain the bab and gain all the nasty natural weapon spells.
What's GMG?
wear armor.
Seriously, until you get to level 10, you don't even have the AC of a chain shirt, so don't bother.
That's semi-bad advice; my savage barbarians don't bother with armor from level 3 onwards (where the dodge-bonus starts) - and use potions of mage armor to get the remainder of the AC. +4 armor bonus is very substantial and the potions are cheap and last for an hour.
Chain shirt only costs 100 gold or two potions, a +1 chain shirt, only costs 1,100 gold, or 22 potions. It's cool to not wear armor from a flavor standpoint, but it's way more cost effective to wear armor.
Chain shirt only costs 100 gold or two potions, a +1 chain shirt, only costs 1,100 gold, or 22 potions. It's cool to not wear armor from a flavor standpoint, but it's way more cost effective to wear armor.
At level 3 the potion equates to a +1 chainshirt (due to the dodge bonus); and you might as well spend that extra money on a +1 shield instead then as a savage barbarian, so the potion route is still more cost-effective due to the drip-cost rather than the bulk cost.
By level 7 you need a +2 chainshirt to keep competing. (That's 82 potions) At level 9 its +3 chainshirt (182 potions) and at level 10 its a +4 chainshirt (302 potions).
How do you feel about it now?
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To be honest, a solution for Savage Barbarians that involves wearing armor anyway isn't a very palatable solution for most people wanting to go Savage Barbarian.
Even if one suggest it only has to be worn up to the teens, that's still the majority of most average PC's adventuring career come and gone where they couldn't even play the very theme they were shooting for.
Currently weighing options for a Savage Barbarian myself, and Bracers of Armor and potions are looking like they're going to be leaned on pretty hard.
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Take one level of Summoner, Sorcerer or Wizard (depending on what you prefer for special abilities) and buy a wand of Mage Armor and a wand of Shield.
Cast Mage Armor (1 hour duration) before entering any risky area and cast Shield (10 rounds duration) if you have time to buff before a fight or if your AC really needs another +4.
Actually, a Thunder and Fang TWF isn't a bad choice and it has some fun flavor. Sure it takes a few feats to get going, but then you get the opportunity to have an earthbreaker / klar thing going. The earthbreaker is there for the damage, the klar is there for the shield bonus, you can TWF with both and retain your shield bonus.
Just remember to tell the guy that he can two hand a double weapon if he runs into too much DR. Add power attack when you can, and you got a good thing going.
Well derp... i was sleepy and not thinking critically, clearly, or creatively...
Chain shirt only costs 100 gold or two potions, a +1 chain shirt, only costs 1,100 gold, or 22 potions. It's cool to not wear armor from a flavor standpoint, but it's way more cost effective to wear armor.At level 3 the potion equates to a +1 chainshirt (due to the dodge bonus); and you might as well spend that extra money on a +1 shield instead then as a savage barbarian, so the potion route is still more cost-effective due to the drip-cost rather than the bulk cost.
By level 7 you need a +2 chainshirt to keep competing. (That's 82 potions) At level 9 its +3 chainshirt (182 potions) and at level 10 its a +4 chainshirt (302 potions).
How do you feel about it now?
I feel...
I would go as far as to just ignore getting bracers of armor until you can afford ones that outdo mage armor. Like said, potions are cheap. In addition it is very easy now to get UMD as a class skill (its a trait and you get a +2 to it) and then you can rock a 750gp wand of mage armor.
lol, forgot about mage armor =]
now that i'm less dumb, I'd say spend 100 on a chain shirt that you wear until lv 3. Then you grab a wand of Mage armor and UMD, or have a friendly Sorc/Wiz/UMD-er cast the wand on you. Carry a few potions in case you're in PFS and don't end up with an arcane caster or whatever. That'll hopefully work for you till you get to a decent set of bracers.
Your unarmored bonuses go lv3: +1/+0, lv7: +1/+1, lv9: +2/+1, lv10 +2/+2, lv13 +2/+3, lv15: +3/+3, lv16: +3/+4, lv19: +3/+5 (Dodge/Natural)
I don't recall the levels that people usually get their enchanted armors but that seems like it's not too terrible for keeping up with other's AC especially with a shield you can enhance as well.
Or go Savage DragonDisciple, take Sorc at say lv4, you can mage armor yourself at that point.
Lv4: Barb3/Sorc1 gets you claws and use of wand of Mage Armor and +1Dodge
Lv7: Barb4/Sorc1/DD2 gets you +2str, a bite, +2Nat
Lv12: Barb9/Sorc1/DD2 gets you equivalent of a +3 chainshirt w/mage armor (important for PFS) plus the DD stuff.
Lv13: Barb10/Sorc1/DD2 gets you +4 ch.shirt w/MA
Then you either grab the next 2 levels in DD for the +4 Str, +3Nat armor, and Magic Nat Attacks, and CL4, then go Barb up to 15 for +3Dodge and +3Nat and use MA till you get +5bracers for an AC: 24+dex+magic items
Or go straight to Barb17/Sorc1/DD3 for +3Dodge, +4Nat, and Tireless Rage and the same AC.
If you take DD4, you get max casts and MA as a Bonus spell, and you can keep it up all day long (6+ casts for 4 hours a pop), but DD2 gives you 4+ casts at 2 hrs a pop, so 8+hours a day for free. Makes it a lot cheaper till you decide to spring for the +5 bracers.
or eschew bracers +5 (25,000) and spend that to up your Ring of Prot. from +4 to +5 [32,000 gp (+4), 50,000 gp (+5)]
Dump Extra Rage feat.
A Barb is feat starved as it is and he's going to be even more so if he tries TWF. Also, the amount of rage rounds goes up so fast that the 14 con instead of 16 or 18 doesn't really make that much of a difference. You would be better off using that feat for toughness b/c the whole point of a Barb is that they don't need high AC like a fighter b/c the just soak the damage instead (high con +d12) and you're going to be hurting with the loss of 2hp per level.
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Natural weapon rager is pretty damn awesome in it's own right. Especially since Animal Fury is a primary attack now(after GMG confirmation). It just suffers a lot without a magic mart or a friendly druid. Naturally(phaw!) multiclassing with a ranger is a nice option, since they retain the bab and gain all the nasty natural weapon spells.What's GMG?
Oh, sorry. Completely missed the new posts in this thread.
Yeah, this npc sheet from Game Mastery Guide has a barbarian with the animal fury power using it as a primary natural attack. There was a thread about this earlier on, IIRC.
All primary natural attacks(limbs permitting) can be used together without making some of them secondary. Add claws from another rage power to animal fury and you'll have three primaries without fumbling around with racial features or multiclassing.