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This came up this evening session where it was important to know if the weapon was still in-hand when a character went unconscious due to non-lethal damage exceeding their current hit-points.
We couldn't find anywhere in the book that said that you actually drop your weapon like it specifically says for Stunning.
Common sense would say you drop your weapon in your square, but RAW we couldn't find a ruling.
The rules assume you are going to use some common sense. The first thing being, the rules don't say your character has to sleep (it only says sleep get's rid of exhaustion, which can only be gotten by forced marching short of magic spells), the rules also don't go into having to use the bathroom, having to eat something besides cane sugar for every meal, needing to bathe regularly, needing to cut your hair, and dozens of other things that you have to do and are common sense.
Now, having said that, if you look in, I believe it's adventurer's armory, you can find an item called weapon cords, which prevent you from dropping weapons. So, if you need something to stop you from dropping a weapon, then theoretically there are situations in which you drop it not of your own free will. :)
Does it say you drop your weapon? No? Than you don't.
Ever hear of a death grip?
:P
Someone at the table mentioned `death grip` but that usually happens when rigor mortis sets in, correct?
Someone at the table mentioned `death grip` but that usually happens when rigor mortis sets in, correct?
Weapon would have to be in one's hand in the first place, no?
Someone at the table mentioned `death grip` but that usually happens when rigor mortis sets in, correct?
I think in this case, Dork is just trying to be funny.
However, to be completely correct, 'death grip' happens after rigor mortis is over with. You usually don't find it until after the body has begun to dry out. As the tissues dry, the tendons tighten up, pulling the fingers into a rictus. If the hand was flat, the tendons on the top and bottom of the hand tighten at the same rate, and the hand eventually get's 'frozen' with the fingers extended. If the hand instead is curled, then the tendons on the inside of the hand tighten at a faster rate, and pull the hand into a tighter grip.
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Now, having said that, if you look in, I believe it's adventurer's armory, you can find an item called weapon cords, which prevent you from dropping weapons. So, if you need something to stop you from dropping a weapon, then theoretically there are situations in which you drop it not of your own free will. :)
Those also help you against disarm attempts.
I can't find where the rules define this, one way or another, either. Maybe the character could get a similar Constitution check as for stabilisation, or some sort of roll against his CMD, to see if he keeps clutching his weapon in the event it becomes important.
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The rules assume you are going to use some common sense. The first thing being, the rules don't say your character has to sleep (it only says sleep get's rid of exhaustion, which can only be gotten by forced marching short of magic spells), the rules also don't go into having to use the bathroom, having to eat something besides cane sugar for every meal, needing to bathe regularly, needing to cut your hair, and dozens of other things that you have to do and are common sense.
Now, having said that, if you look in, I believe it's adventurer's armory, you can find an item called weapon cords, which prevent you from dropping weapons. So, if you need something to stop you from dropping a weapon, then theoretically there are situations in which you drop it not of your own free will. :)
BAH! A pox on you and this "common sense"! I have read lots of posts on the boards, and common sense has nothing to do with RAW or RAI!
I claim Common Sense is BADWRONGFUN at its worst!
All the Gulls out there agree! I am almost kinda somewhat certain of it!
Greg
Per raw you can keep fighting cast spells drink potions and even have sex while unconcious since there are no rules for knocked out. however you can be coup de graced at all times while doing these things.
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irl i know plenty of people who've passed out with a beer in their hand ad didnt spill it the whole time they were asleep.
or ever had someone pass out with a remote in their hand, and you cant pry it free?
the game rules are silent to my knowledge, but i could see it argued either way. I vote let'em keep a grip on it.
I agree with MDT actually. Rules do not have to say. I give it over to the DM. If everything were spelled out, they would not have a job. DM decides and woe to the player that disputes them.
WOE I say! woe.
Greg
irl i know plenty of people who've passed out with a beer in their hand ad didnt spill it the whole time they were asleep.
or ever had someone pass out with a remote in their hand, and you cant pry it free?
There is a world of difference between 'I drank myself unconscious' or 'I fell asleep while sitting down' and 'Someone hit me on the back of the head with a sap while I was keeping watch' or 'Someone stabbed me in the guts and made them spill on the floor'.
In both your examples (yes, I have seen them), the person is in a seated position, passes out or falls asleep, with the beer or remote in their hand. The guy with the remote may be asleep, but he's not uncoscious, people can respond in their sleep (by holding their grip). They can't respond while knocked out (thus the reason surgeons like to have their patients knocked out, so they don't kick them in the jewels for cutting their belly open).
What I have never seen is a guy pass out while walking across the room and keep a grip on his mug of beer. Every time it falls out of his hand and splashes on the floor. I've also never seen anyone fall asleep while jogging and keep anything in their hand. So I seriously doubt the guy who has sleep cast on him while swinging his sword around is going to keep a grip on it. By the same token, the guy who's watching his entrails make interesting patterns on the floor has lost interest in his mace.
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i think the only time i'd do it as a GM is if i had a power gaming munchkin at the table.
Making the player drop their weapon if they were knocked out is just harsh, if the players are calling for it to happen to an NPC, just remember that for when you get a chance to do it to them. Other wise, no (unless it's a munchkin)
I could see one falling with the weapon landing in his hand so all he has to do is tighten his grip so it would be a moot point. Both sides have their merits.
Look, you drop a weapon when you get STUNNED for crying out loud. If you get knocked into what is essentially a coma that weapon is gone.
On the other hand, wouldn't consider it an action to grab the weapon from where it is when you get up (providing no one moved it on you), or at the least would allow you to grab it as part of your move action from standing up.
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This came up this evening session where it was important to know if the weapon was still in-hand when a character went unconscious due to non-lethal damage exceeding their current hit-points.
One thing to refer to is Stunned. With stunned, you're not even knocked out and you drop you weapon. Being knocked unconscious is a lot more severe that being stunned, so I'd say a GM has a decent arguement (other than Rule Zero) to say the PC/NPC does drop his/her weapon or whatever he/she has in hand.
Stunned: A stunned creature drops everything held, can't take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).
Totally agree. Its just the description for Unconscious doesn't say you drop your weapon...this needs to be erratta'd.
In one of our games, our paladin even dropped his dear +1 sword (low level, all other chars had at best mw stuff) when he fell from a bridge - no need to be unconscious for that. (take a while until he got it back, it sunk quite deep - our wizardress even learned aquan to instruct a summoned water elemental just for this)
needing to cut your hair, and dozens of other things that you have to do and are common sense.
cutting hair is common sense? poor samson.
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RAW the unconscious condition just says you're 'knocked out and helpless' - so RAW you don't even fall over... unless you happen to consider that such a thing may happen if you're, you know, knocked out and helpless...
Yes, you drop everything you're holding... of course you do.
Weapon cords don't stop you dropping stuff (they just help you recover it quicker), a locked gauntlet is what you're looking for if this sort of stuff is an issue for you.
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When stunned, you drop your weapon. I would therefore rule being knocked out would also have you drop your weapon...
The attitude of 'if it isn't explicitly spelled out because its glaringly obvious then it doesn't apply' can be a dangerous way to look at the rules. I don't think it needs errata.
The death grip would be a valid argument except as others point out, thats only once rigor mortis has set in.
Anyone here ever been knocked unconcious while carrying something? I have, dropped it the moment I was knocked out (item was a bag, if relevant).
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This came up this evening session where it was important to know if the weapon was still in-hand when a character went unconscious due to non-lethal damage exceeding their current hit-points.
We couldn't find anywhere in the book that said that you actually drop your weapon like it specifically says for Stunning.
Common sense would say you drop your weapon in your square, but RAW we couldn't find a ruling.
I generally go with yes you drop it (barring having anything to prevent this), but you can pick it up as part of your move action to stand up.
YMMV
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I'd probably let 'em pick it up as part of their move action to stand up (assuming the weapon's not been moved) as long as they had +1 BAB or more (the same as is needed to draw a weapon as part of a regular move)... but only if it happened to prevent bad blood at the table. Otherwise - getting KO'd is meant to suck... try not to get KO'd! ;)
Creative Director
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The attitude of 'if it isn't explicitly spelled out because its glaringly obvious then it doesn't apply' can be a dangerous way to look at the rules. I don't think it needs errata./QUOTE]
This.
Common sense suggests that you drop your weapon in your square when you go unconscious or die.
At least, it does to me. If it doesn't to any other GMs out there, they should absolutely rule otherwise in their game.
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My groups have always played it that when you go unconscious, you drop anything you were holding. If you get healed, you spend two move actions to get back into things (grab weapon, stand up) or maybe just one (grab weapon) before swinging from prone. Using a move action isn't that big a penalty for getting knocked out.
+1
Common sense would say you drop your weapon in your square, but RAW we couldn't find a ruling.
They leave out a lot of stuff that common sense already tells you.
They don't specify what happens when you lose consciousness because they probably didn't think anyone would need to ask.
Note that there are no rules concerning metabolism - how much you need to eat, how much you can eat, if you're going to gain weight because of it, how often you'll have to poop, how much you'll have to poop, what colour and consistency it will be, and so on. Leave it right out. Though there probably is another reason for it - that stuff is simply not heroic.
But the common sense thing is a part of it, too.
irl i know plenty of people who've passed out with a beer in their hand ad didnt spill it the whole time they were asleep.
or ever had someone pass out with a remote in their hand, and you cant pry it free?
the game rules are silent to my knowledge, but i could see it argued either way. I vote let'em keep a grip on it.
Does the guy with the beer pass out on his feet? Or the guy with the remote? And did any of them pass out because of being beaten (or burned, or electrified, or punctured....) almost to death?
Per raw you can [...] even have sex while unconcious
Oh, that works in real life, too. There is even a number of medications used very frequently to facilitate that. They're commonly referred to as "date rape drugs".
Add me to the characters drop your weapons when you fall unconscious, it's a nice dramatic effect.
Depends on how in my game more importantly does the character fall face up or face down? Face down could be bad in marshes and such just food for thought.
Depends on how in my game more importantly does the character fall face up or face down? Face down could be bad in marshes and such just food for thought.
We need a 1e style table for that. Also a subtable for head position.
That whole thing came from a game where a buddy got hit for enough damage to knock him out and without thinking he looks at the DM and ask face up or down. The look on the DM's face when he realized we were in a swamp was priceless.
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Jesus...really?
Some people aren't gonna be satisfied until the Core Rulebook collapses under it's own weight and we all get sucked screaming into the black hole that was once the Paizo office.
Best way to solve this question is to ask the player to hold something, then hit him in the head with a sledgehammer. If he drops the item you asked him to hold, he dropped his weapon in-game.
And a subsubtable for mouth open or mouth closed.
Modified by depth of water.
And size of nose.
Edit: And how many ranks in Knowledge: Local the character has. Subdivided by Continent, Region, Nation, Province, District, and Acreage, of course.
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Note that there are no rules concerning metabolism - how much you need to eat, how much you can eat, if you're going to gain weight because of it, how often you'll have to poop, how much you'll have to poop, what colour and consistency it will be, and so on. Leave it right out. Though there probably is another reason for it - that stuff is simply not heroic.
Spoken like a man who has never played FATAL. I'm pretty sure there are a few charts for that.
Note that there are no rules concerning metabolism - how much you need to eat, how much you can eat, if you're going to gain weight because of it, how often you'll have to poop, how much you'll have to poop, what colour and consistency it will be, and so on. Leave it right out. Though there probably is another reason for it - that stuff is simply not heroic.
But the common sense thing is a part of it, too.
No rules for poop but there are rules for how much you need to eat.
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Note that there are no rules concerning metabolism - how much you need to eat, how much you can eat, if you're going to gain weight because of it, how often you'll have to poop, how much you'll have to poop, what colour and consistency it will be, and so on. Leave it right out. Though there probably is another reason for it - that stuff is simply not heroic.Spoken like a man who has never played FATAL. I'm pretty sure there are a few charts for that.
Consult the Anal Circumference Potential table and roll a 1d100.
Note that there are no rules concerning metabolism - how much you need to eat, how much you can eat, if you're going to gain weight because of it, how often you'll have to poop, how much you'll have to poop, what colour and consistency it will be, and so on. Leave it right out. Though there probably is another reason for it - that stuff is simply not heroic.Spoken like a man who has never played FATAL.
Yeah. Proud of it, too!
No rules for poop but there are rules for how much you need to eat.
Note that there are no rules concerning metabolism - how much you need to eat, how much you can eat, if you're going to gain weight because of it, how often you'll have to poop, how much you'll have to poop, what colour and consistency it will be, and so on. Leave it right out. Though there probably is another reason for it - that stuff is simply not heroic.
But the common sense thing is a part of it, too.
Really? Including the proper amount of carbs, protein, fat, what kind of vitamins and so on? Do you have a page reference?
This came up this evening session where it was important to know if the weapon was still in-hand when a character went unconscious due to non-lethal damage exceeding their current hit-points.One thing to refer to is Stunned. With stunned, you're not even knocked out and you drop you weapon. Being knocked unconscious is a lot more severe that being stunned, so I'd say a GM has a decent arguement (other than Rule Zero) to say the PC/NPC does drop his/her weapon or whatever he/she has in hand.
Stunned: A stunned creature drops everything held, can't take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).
+1
Just a pound of good quaility food can get a page refernce if need be
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I think this one's an easy one.
Just have you and your friends step into the kitchen. One of you take a carving knife in one hand while the other strikes the base of your skull with a marble rolling pin.
You'll have your answer.
Note: This poster waves all liability resulting from anyone stupid enough to actually DO this.
The idea that you might, like John Henry, die with your hammer in your hand strikes me as reasonable, particularlyin an epic fantasy setting. Soldiers are sometimes found still clasping their weapons in death - at least I think I remember seeing that in historical photos.
The idea that you would drop your weapon when you die or lose consciousness also seems quite reasonable, perhaps even moreso than the "death grip". It can also make for a nice dramatic effect, especially if you're on a precipice.
I think there's room for both ideas, and that might be why the rules are silent on it - to allow you to do both depending on circumstances. A fifty percent chance is an easy way to solve it impartially, or the default could be drop it unless the dm decides you should retain it because of circumstance, story or other reasons. A behind-the-screen roll by the dm could decide it, which more or less means "the dm decides it".