ProfPotts |
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Can a character with Brew Potion create a potion of any spell he knows simply by adding +5 to the DC, even without preparing it? (page 549)
No. When creating potions, the crafter must prepare and expend the spell used by the potion as part of its creation. This is an exception to the normal rules that allow a caster to skip one of the prerequisites for crafting an item by adding +5 to the DC.Update: Page 549, in the Magic Item Creation rules, in the second paragraph, change the last sentence to read as follows.
In addition, you cannot create potions, scrolls, staves, wands, or any other spell-trigger or spell-completion magic item without meeting its prerequisites.
—Jason Bulmahn, Wednesday
So it looks like the only real advantage of the Brew Potion Feat - the fact that potions aren't spell-trigger or spell-completion items and can therefore use the '+5 to DC to ignore prerequisites' option - just got (re-)nerfed...
... I add the 're-' because this basically sets Brew Potion back to being the red-headed stepchild of the Item Creation Feats it was in 3.X D&D: lowest maximum spell level, highest cost 'per charge', and biggest range of restricted spells of any of 'em. The one 'positive' - being able to use them without having a spell list or using UMD - is a little deceptive, in that (as far as PCs go at least) it's something of a rare situation for a party not to have at least one spellcaster amongst their number, and probably two or three other characters with, at least, a class spell list, and someone with UMD too.
Apart from Alchemists (who get it for free) is there really much point in characters taking Brew Potion at all now? For those rare situations where you absolutely must have a 'potion' can't you just use Craft Wonderous Item and make an equivalent (although less restricted and more expensive) 'elixir' instead?
Thoughts?
Mathwei ap Niall |
Tell me about it, my poor Witch suddenly has to change out my favorite hex. This nerf does seriously drop the usefulness of that particular Hex.
I still don't understand the rationale behind it, having access to a larger pool of buffs (what else would you brew?) from multiple spell lists (but only up to 3rd level) at a high cost (20 gold+ a pop) on a restricted availability (1 per day) seemed pretty balanced to me.
Now brew potion is really just going to be for cure light/cure mod potions with the occasional bulls strength. Whoop-dee-Doo, that's NPC territory.
Poor Wandering One |
Immersion wise I never liked being able to make a potion of something if you did not know the spell, but balance wise Brew Potion is a feat I have never seen taken.
This is all just my opinion of course. I am sure there are groups that like the feat.
Immersion wise I saw it as the witch/alchemist being able to use the cauldron/chenicals to go beyond what they could do normally. Look at the the witch in snow white. Why bother with the disguise and the apple if you can just cast eternal sleep on the poor girl? Answer, the witch can't just cast it. So she has to jump through all these hoops to get the power to do what she wants. It was very atmospheric and quite cool.
Poor Wandering One |
Poor Wandering One wrote:True. Fortunately, the witch can take the hit and keep being AMAZING. :-)Well it makes the hex selection for my witch easier. Bye bye cauldron.
This really hits the witch hard
True and as crazy as mu witch is I don't see folks drinking anything he gives them.
Dorje Sylas |
Bad ruling there, very bad. The primary reason back in beta people brought up issue with spell completion and spell trigger magic items (especially scrolls) was that it let Wizards get a free lunch on researching spells. That was the only reason we kvetched about it.
Potions were no where near even close to that issue.
Unless this is partial prep for crafting overhaul blog I really don't see this as good. At all.
Mathwei ap Niall |
With Alchemical Allocation, potions are still useful for the alchemist.
The issue is not with potions themselves it's with the Brew Potion Feat. Now your alchemist is limited to potions he can FIND instead of the ones he can make himself.
He's lost 90% of all the potions he used to be able to make since he's now restricted to ONLY the formulaes he knows. If it's not on his formulae list AND currently in his formulaes book AND in his currently prepped elixirs he can never make that potion again.
@Zmar, previously to this ruling if there was a spell that could be put into a potion then anyone with this feat could brew it automatically. They didn't need to know the spell or have it currently memorized.
You'd spend a few hours mixing various expensive reagents and BAM you'd have a potion of x ready to use at anytime you needed it.
Now you're stuck spending one of your spell slots AND a low level spell you can currently cast so you can cast it for free tomorrow.
It's like Scribe Scrolls fat little brother, costs twice as much and can only do a less than a third what scribe scroll can do. Sure you can hand him off to the rest of the family but that's just going to eat their actions instead.
Kolokotroni |
Immersion wise I never liked being able to make a potion of something if you did not know the spell, but balance wise Brew Potion is a feat I have never seen taken.
This is all just my opinion of course. I am sure there are groups that like the feat.
Really? I think lore, film and books are LOADED with magical types that brew up potions for spells they cant normally cast on their own. Everyone from Harry Dresden to the witches from Charmed did this sort of thing.
wraithstrike |
wraithstrike wrote:Really? I think lore, film and books are LOADED with magical types that brew up potions for spells they cant normally cast on their own. Everyone from Harry Dresden to the witches from Charmed did this sort of thing.Immersion wise I never liked being able to make a potion of something if you did not know the spell, but balance wise Brew Potion is a feat I have never seen taken.
This is all just my opinion of course. I am sure there are groups that like the feat.
They may brew up liquids that have magical affects, but in PF a certain spell does a certain thing, and if you can't cast the spell then I don't see you being able to put it in a potion. I do admit that I have always seen potions as pseudo spell completion items though, and not in the same light as they are used in movies and books.
Zmar |
Jadeite wrote:With Alchemical Allocation, potions are still useful for the alchemist.The issue is not with potions themselves it's with the Brew Potion Feat. Now your alchemist is limited to potions he can FIND instead of the ones he can make himself.
He's lost 90% of all the potions he used to be able to make since he's now restricted to ONLY the formulaes he knows. If it's not on his formulae list AND currently in his formulaes book AND in his currently prepped elixirs he can never make that potion again.
@Zmar, previously to this ruling if there was a spell that could be put into a potion then anyone with this feat could brew it automatically. They didn't need to know the spell or have it currently memorized.
You'd spend a few hours mixing various expensive reagents and BAM you'd have a potion of x ready to use at anytime you needed it.
Now you're stuck spending one of your spell slots AND a low level spell you can currently cast so you can cast it for free tomorrow.It's like Scribe Scrolls fat little brother, costs twice as much and can only do a less than a third what scribe scroll can do. Sure you can hand him off to the rest of the family but that's just going to eat their actions instead.
Re-reads the rules... yeah, potions could have been an exception. I'll keep them as berwable for anyone. Otherwise I couldn't really have any potion brewing experts.
Zaister |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is the only reading of the feat that makes sense. The idea that you could brew potions of spells that you don't know or couldn't even cast at all is mind-bogglingly ludicrous to me. Why anyone would ever play it like that is a mystery to me.
Jadeite |
It was extremely strange before.
Pre APG, a wizard was unable to brew a potion of stoneskin. Then the APG introduced the Summoner who had Stoneskin as a 3rd level spell and suddenly a wizard was able to brew such a potion? If he's supposed to be able to brew such a potion, why couldn't he before the summoner got introduced?
Allia Thren |
This is the only reading of the feat that makes sense. The idea that you could brew potions of spells that you don't know or couldn't even cast at all is mind-bogglingly ludicrous to me. Why anyone would ever play it like that is a mystery to me.
It's not becuase of the feat but the magic item creation rules.
There it says that the only pre-req is the feat itself all other prereqs can be substituted by increasing the DC by +5. It goes on to say then that spell-trigger and spell-completion items also can't replace the spell needed.That indicates everything else can replace the spell needed, and potions are neither spell trigger nor spell completion items.
That got changed now, now basicly only wonderous items can be made without the spells.
LilithsThrall |
Clearly, the biggest problem with this ruling isn't what it does to Brew Potion, but what it does to the Alchemist and, secondly, the Witch. The Alchemist becomes second rate in his signature ability. The Witch fares better, but still the cauldron is -suppossed- to give her powers she couldn't ordinarily have. This is a long standing trope of witches. This ruling removes that from the class.
yukongil |
This is the only reading of the feat that makes sense. The idea that you could brew potions of spells that you don't know or couldn't even cast at all is mind-bogglingly ludicrous to me. Why anyone would ever play it like that is a mystery to me.
Why can a maker of a Wonderous Item ignore the spell requirement for thier doodads then? They put in the ignore prerequisite rule and then left it open for Brew Potion, which needed it, so it shouldn't be too ludicrous to figure out the simple corrolary between the two.
as for me and my group, one more house-rule...le sigh
Morgen |
Really? I think lore, film and books are LOADED with magical types that brew up potions for spells they cant normally cast on their own. Everyone from Harry Dresden to the witches from Charmed did this sort of thing.
Yeah but if you look at it a lot of those effects aren't something that can just be cast as a spell at all. They're things specific to the potions they make, so they'd probably be more similar to Elixirs then anything else in mechanical terms.
My 2 cents at least.
Kolokotroni |
Kolokotroni wrote:They may brew up liquids that have magical affects, but in PF a certain spell does a certain thing, and if you can't cast the spell then I don't see you being able to put it in a potion. I do admit that I have always seen potions as pseudo spell completion items though, and not in the same light as they are used in movies and books.wraithstrike wrote:Really? I think lore, film and books are LOADED with magical types that brew up potions for spells they cant normally cast on their own. Everyone from Harry Dresden to the witches from Charmed did this sort of thing.Immersion wise I never liked being able to make a potion of something if you did not know the spell, but balance wise Brew Potion is a feat I have never seen taken.
This is all just my opinion of course. I am sure there are groups that like the feat.
This issue is of course that the game defines nearly all magical effects as spells, or describes them as LIKE spell x. There isnt alot of room for magical effects that havent been written up as a spell somewhere. Seriously can you think of something that cant be done with a spell written somewhere?
And to give an example in literature, Harry Dresden would brew up potions that would make him near impossible to notice, but couldn't normally do such magic on his own. Where as other mages who were better with veils (illusions) could do something very much like the potion did on the fly. Its a matter of specialty in casting magic, and using recipes for potions to supplement the magic your own talent lacks. That I think fits the idea of being able to brew potions for spells you cant cast rather well.
Bascaria |
wraithstrike wrote:Kolokotroni wrote:They may brew up liquids that have magical affects, but in PF a certain spell does a certain thing, and if you can't cast the spell then I don't see you being able to put it in a potion. I do admit that I have always seen potions as pseudo spell completion items though, and not in the same light as they are used in movies and books.wraithstrike wrote:Really? I think lore, film and books are LOADED with magical types that brew up potions for spells they cant normally cast on their own. Everyone from Harry Dresden to the witches from Charmed did this sort of thing.Immersion wise I never liked being able to make a potion of something if you did not know the spell, but balance wise Brew Potion is a feat I have never seen taken.
This is all just my opinion of course. I am sure there are groups that like the feat.
This issue is of course that the game defines nearly all magical effects as spells, or describes them as LIKE spell x. There isnt alot of room for magical effects that havent been written up as a spell somewhere. Seriously can you think of something that cant be done with a spell written somewhere?
And to give an example in literature, Harry Dresden would brew up potions that would make him near impossible to notice, but couldn't normally do such magic on his own. Where as other mages who were better with veils (illusions) could do something very much like the potion did on the fly. Its a matter of specialty in casting magic, and using recipes for potions to supplement the magic your own talent lacks. That I think fits the idea of being able to brew potions for spells you cant cast rather well.
If I had to build Harry, I think arcane sorcerer focusing on evocation and divination with magic item creation feats is the obvious way to go. His staff is a staff... his blasting rod is a rod of empower or maximize... bracelet of shield... etc. Crafting would be supplemented by scrolls.
However, let's for a moment say he is a wizard rather than a sorcerer. Evocation or Divination are the obvious choices for his favored school. Given his, as you noticed, constant failure to cast veil magic, let's say that illusion is a forbidden school. Note that this doesn't mean he can't cast the magic, it just takes up double slots so he never bothers to prepare it. Rather, he makes potions of it when he has time. He can still cast the magic, though.
What he never makes are potions of cure light wounds (or restoration which would be a godsend for him, given how he spends about 90% of every book exhausted). Nor can he make potions which give him the SLAs of the fey or their champions.
Mosaic |
Non-Spell Caster Question (i.e., don't get mad) - Can't the wizard/alchemist/witch just go out and buy a scroll of the desired spell or go pay to copy it from another wizard's spell book? Flavor-wise that'd be pretty equivalent to doing research that would enable you to brew the potion, plus, now you'd have the spell/formula in your book.
Bascaria |
Non-Spell Caster Question (i.e., don't get mad) - Can't the wizard/alchemist/witch just go out and buy a scroll of the desired spell or go pay to copy it from another wizard's spell book? Flavor-wise that'd be pretty equivalent to doing research that would enable you to brew the potion, plus, now you'd have the spell/formula in your book.
Yes, but this assumes a world where everyone has easy access to every scroll, which is not the case in many worlds.
Also, people are upset that they now have to spend a spell slot to prepare the spell, where before they thought that they could forgo knowing and preparing the spell and still make the potion at a trivial +5 DC, leaving the spell-slot open for other things. This was particularly useful when using the 4-hour crafting day which lets you get 2 hours of work done while crafting while out on an adventure, when you might need all your other spell slots.
hogarth |
Non-Spell Caster Question (i.e., don't get mad) - Can't the wizard/alchemist/witch just go out and buy a scroll of the desired spell or go pay to copy it from another wizard's spell book? Flavor-wise that'd be pretty equivalent to doing research that would enable you to brew the potion, plus, now you'd have the spell/formula in your book.
The alchemist formula list is a small subset of the wizard spell list, so in most cases, no, an alchemist couldn't copy every desired wizard spell into his formula book.
Mathwei ap Niall |
Non-Spell Caster Question (i.e., don't get mad) - Can't the wizard/alchemist/witch just go out and buy a scroll of the desired spell or go pay to copy it from another wizard's spell book? Flavor-wise that'd be pretty equivalent to doing research that would enable you to brew the potion, plus, now you'd have the spell/formula in your book.
That would be nice but it wouldn't work.
Remember not only do you have to provide the spell you have to cast it too so unless you have a significant investment in UMD any spell that isn't on your spell list you can't make a potion of.Also everyone keeps talking like using it the way it was made it way to powerful but forgetting all the limitations on it. It had a very limited group of spells that filled the pre-reqs and of those you where limited to the lowest 3 levels of spell.
Now it's really barely worth the feat and that's if you pick the right class who has enough of the few spells you can use it with.
Chris Mortika RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
It was extremely strange before.
Pre APG, a wizard was unable to brew a potion of stoneskin. Then the APG introduced the Summoner who had Stoneskin as a 3rd level spell and suddenly a wizard was able to brew such a potion? If he's supposed to be able to brew such a potion, why couldn't he before the summoner got introduced?
Jadeite, it's this way with all the new rules supplements. The way the rules translate the game world reality is re-focused. It happened between D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder. It happened with the introduction of the APG, and it'll happen with the magic and combat books, too.
NPCs who would have been straight rogues or fighters before, are realized with archetypes. A villain who had levels in Wizard might now have levels in Witch.
It's best, I think to ignore the discontinuity, the same way the writers of the old Bewitched TV show didn't mention that Darren looked different at the beginning of the second season. When there is an in-character recognition (George Lazenby complaining that he was getting into perils that "that other guy" didn't have to deal with, or the Forgotten Realms having a Time of Troubles to explain why certain NPCs were no longer monks or assassins --2nd Edition didn't support those classes-- and why clerics were suddenly all different) it seems sort of lame.
Quantum Steve |
Apart from Alchemists (who get it for free) is there really much point in characters taking Brew Potion at all now? For those rare situations where you absolutely must have a 'potion' can't you just use Craft Wonderous Item and make an equivalent (although less restricted and more expensive) 'elixir' instead?
Thoughts?
If you're opening the floor to all manner of custom magic items, can't you also duplicate wands and scrolls with CWI? What's the point of those feats?
He's lost 90% of all the potions he used to be able to make since he's now restricted to ONLY the formulaes he knows. If it's not on his formulae list AND currently in his formulaes book AND in his currently prepped elixirs he can never make that potion again.
Huh?
If it's on his list, he can just pay to put it in his book forever, and then brew a potion whenever he wants. If he doesn't have it prepped, he takes 15 min to prep it, then brews a potion.
He's restricted to the spells on his list, but he always was. Alchemists can't normally use Brew Potion because they're not casters. They get a special ability that lets them brew any potion on their list. Unlike other casters, they never could brew potions on other lists because unlike other casters, they're not casters.
The ONLY thing that's different for alchemists is now brewing a potion costs an extract.
ProfPotts |
If you're opening the floor to all manner of custom magic items, can't you also duplicate wands and scrolls with CWI? What's the point of those feats?
Well elixirs 'posing as potions' aren't exactly custom items, as they seem to be the standard Paizo fix for when writers accidentally slip illegal potions (such as potions of spells with a range of personal) into published materials. See the Game Mastery Guide's NPC gallery and the response to it for examples. ;)
Mathwei ap Niall |
ProfPotts wrote:Apart from Alchemists (who get it for free) is there really much point in characters taking Brew Potion at all now? For those rare situations where you absolutely must have a 'potion' can't you just use Craft Wonderous Item and make an equivalent (although less restricted and more expensive) 'elixir' instead?
Thoughts?
If you're opening the floor to all manner of custom magic items, can't you also duplicate wands and scrolls with CWI? What's the point of those feats?
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:He's lost 90% of all the potions he used to be able to make since he's now restricted to ONLY the formulaes he knows. If it's not on his formulae list AND currently in his formulaes book AND in his currently prepped elixirs he can never make that potion again.Huh?
If it's on his list, he can just pay to put it in his book forever, and then brew a potion whenever he wants. If he doesn't have it prepped, he takes 15 min to prep it, then brews a potion.
He's restricted to the spells on his list, but he always was. Alchemists can't normally use Brew Potion because they're not casters. They get a special ability that lets them brew any potion on their list. Unlike other casters, they never could brew potions on other lists because unlike other casters, they're not casters.
The ONLY thing that's different for alchemists is now brewing a potion costs an extract.
Alchemists specifically had an entry on their version of Brew Potion allowing them to use their Alchemist level as their caster level in regards to potions.
Add that to the previous version of Brew Potion allowing you to brew any legal potion as long as you had this feat allowed an alchemist to brew ANY potion in the game without having to be an actual spellcaster.NOW with this change he went from being the best potion brewer in the game to the worst since he has no access to any spells at all and has the smallest "effective" spell list in the game. Add to it he has such few extracts per day available such that trying to actually brew a potion in the field is a bigger hit to his effectiveness then anyone else.
The adventuring alchemist will probably never use this signature power in the field again.
ProfPotts |
Technically, the best arcane potion brewers now would seem to be Wizards (what with their wide spell list and the relatively easy and cheap manner in which they add spells to their spellbooks, as opposed to the more limited spell lists of Alchemists and Witches, and Witches having to find other Witches to feed their familiars with new spells and, blah, blah, blah...).
'Cos, you know, Wizards needed more stuff... ;)
Of course, Clerics and Druids are really the best with the whole 'instantly know the whole spell list' power they get. New book with divine spells comes out? Ping! Your CoD can now brew potions of those spells too - no extra charge! :)
Quantum Steve |
Alchemists specifically had an entry on their version of Brew Potion allowing them to use their Alchemist level as their caster level in regards to potions.
Add that to the previous version of Brew Potion allowing you to brew any legal potion as long as you had this feat allowed an alchemist to brew ANY potion in the game without having to be an actual spellcaster.NOW with this change he went from being the best potion brewer in the game to the worst since he has no access to any spells at all and has the smallest "effective" spell list in the game. Add to it he has such few extracts per day available such that trying to actually brew a potion in the field is a bigger hit to his effectiveness then anyone else.
The adventuring alchemist will probably never use this signature power in the field again.
Nope. As non-casters, Alchemists don't qualify for Brew Potion. Except...
"Brew Potion (Ex)
At 1st level, alchemists receive Brew Potion as a bonus feat. An alchemist can brew potions of any formulae he knows (up to 3rd level), using his alchemist level as his caster level. The spell must be one that can be made into a potion. The alchemist does not need to meet the prerequisites for this feat."
Alchemists have a special ability that gives them the Brew Potion feat. But!!! It has qualifiers not present in the Brew Potion feat. Namely: "An alchemist can brew potions of any formulae he knows (up to 3rd level), using his alchemist level as his caster level"
An alchemist's brew potion ability only allows him to brew potions whose forulae he knows. If he doesn't know the forulae, he can't use his alchemist level as his caster level, so he can't brew the potion.
@ProfPotts: Most elixirs I'm familiar with don't duplicate spells like potions do. Most of them have unique effects that can't be mimicked by potions. Some might have effects similar to exixting spells, but even then, they're often not quite the same. I don't have the GMG, are the general rules for creating elixirs?
Mathwei ap Niall |
Technically, the best arcane potion brewers now would seem to be Wizards (what with their wide spell list and the relatively easy and cheap manner in which they add spells to their spellbooks, as opposed to the more limited spell lists of Alchemists and Witches, and Witches having to find other Witches to feed their familiars with new spells and, blah, blah, blah...).
'Cos, you know, Wizards needed more stuff... ;)
Of course, Clerics and Druids are really the best with the whole 'instantly know the whole spell list' power they get. New book with divine spells comes out? Ping! Your CoD can now brew potions of those spells too - no extra charge! :)
Clerics and Druids are NOW some of the best potion brewers because of that. Previously with the old version of Brew Potions everyone had the 'instantly know the EVERYONE'S whole spell list' power and could make a potion out of any of them.
Now the best possible potion brewers in the game are... Sorcerers.
Weird, huhn? But with their sky high Charisma scores and UMD as a class skill they can use any scroll, wand, staff or miscellaneous magic item into the fuel needed to craft a potion.
Other classes can try but the sorceror will be just that half step better at it... if they have the cash to fund this negative sum game.
@Quantum Steve, yes but that is a requirement that could be overcome by raising the DC of the check by +5.
The bigger crafting rule that stated the only requirement that couldn't be overcome was the item creation feat.
The alchemist usually had a higher DC to craft most potions but had a lot more class bonuses to surpass that check.
Quantum Steve |
ProfPotts wrote:Technically, the best arcane potion brewers now would seem to be Wizards (what with their wide spell list and the relatively easy and cheap manner in which they add spells to their spellbooks, as opposed to the more limited spell lists of Alchemists and Witches, and Witches having to find other Witches to feed their familiars with new spells and, blah, blah, blah...).
'Cos, you know, Wizards needed more stuff... ;)
Of course, Clerics and Druids are really the best with the whole 'instantly know the whole spell list' power they get. New book with divine spells comes out? Ping! Your CoD can now brew potions of those spells too - no extra charge! :)
Clerics and Druids are NOW some of the best potion brewers because of that. Previously with the old version of Brew Potions everyone had the 'instantly know the EVERYONE'S whole spell list' power and could make a potion out of any of them.
Now the best possible potion brewers in the game are... Sorcerers.
Weird, huhn? But with their sky high Charisma scores and UMD as a class skill they can use any scroll, wand, staff or miscellaneous magic item into the fuel needed to craft a potion.Other classes can try but the sorceror will be just that half step better at it... if they have the cash to fund this negative sum game.
@Quantum Steve, yes but that is a requirement that could be overcome by raising the DC of the check by +5.
The bigger crafting rule that stated the only requirement that couldn't be overcome was the item creation feat.
The alchemist usually had a higher DC to craft most potions but had a lot more class bonuses to surpass that check.
If a Sorcerer can buy a scroll to make a potion, he's better off buying the potion. Same price, and potions should be just as available.
You can't use the +5 to DC to bypass having the feat. The alchemist's Brew Potion ability only allows him to use the feat for formulaes he knows.
sunshadow21 |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I simply take it as a sign that the next system that requires an overhaul is crafting in general. The concept is great, but it does have numerous flaws. Personally, I would prefer to see a single crafting system that incorporates both mundane and magical items, with listed exemptions for staffs, rings, wondrous items, and perhaps rods, as these are the most common offenders when it comes to blowing up pricing schemes.
Mathwei ap Niall |
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:ProfPotts wrote:Technically, the best arcane potion brewers now would seem to be Wizards (what with their wide spell list and the relatively easy and cheap manner in which they add spells to their spellbooks, as opposed to the more limited spell lists of Alchemists and Witches, and Witches having to find other Witches to feed their familiars with new spells and, blah, blah, blah...).
'Cos, you know, Wizards needed more stuff... ;)
Of course, Clerics and Druids are really the best with the whole 'instantly know the whole spell list' power they get. New book with divine spells comes out? Ping! Your CoD can now brew potions of those spells too - no extra charge! :)
Clerics and Druids are NOW some of the best potion brewers because of that. Previously with the old version of Brew Potions everyone had the 'instantly know the EVERYONE'S whole spell list' power and could make a potion out of any of them.
Now the best possible potion brewers in the game are... Sorcerers.
Weird, huhn? But with their sky high Charisma scores and UMD as a class skill they can use any scroll, wand, staff or miscellaneous magic item into the fuel needed to craft a potion.Other classes can try but the sorceror will be just that half step better at it... if they have the cash to fund this negative sum game.
@Quantum Steve, yes but that is a requirement that could be overcome by raising the DC of the check by +5.
The bigger crafting rule that stated the only requirement that couldn't be overcome was the item creation feat.
The alchemist usually had a higher DC to craft most potions but had a lot more class bonuses to surpass that check.
If a Sorcerer can buy a scroll to make a potion, he's better off buying the potion. Same price, and potions should be just as available.
You can't use the +5 to DC to bypass having the feat. The alchemist's Brew Potion ability only allows him to use the feat for formulaes he knows.
Well first you have the feat for free, you use the +5 DC to bypass having the formulae available.
Can't do that any longer.Ravingdork |
NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Curse you, you silly crazy developers! Curse you!
Can't you see that your ruling is (mostly) unpopular and nonsensical?
Nobody will ever take the feat now. It was hard enough to get them to take it with the previous interpretation!
*shakes fist*
wraithstrike |
NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Curse you, you silly crazy developers! Curse you!
Can't you see that your ruling is (mostly) unpopular and nonsensical?
Nobody will ever take the feat now. It was hard enough to get them to take it with the previous interpretation!
*shakes fist*
I knew that was the RAW all along. This is one time I kind of wish I had been wrong though. I don't care for the feat, but it is one more "will not ever take" feat to be added to the list.
ProfPotts |
@ProfPotts: Most elixirs I'm familiar with don't duplicate spells like potions do. Most of them have unique effects that can't be mimicked by potions. Some might have effects similar to exixting spells, but even then, they're often not quite the same. I don't have the GMG, are the general rules for creating elixirs?
LOL! Not as such, no... What happened was that (amongst various errors in the NPC Gallery stat blocks) there were a bunch of NPCs listed with stuff like 'potion of shield' and the like which, being personal range spells, aren't possible based on RAW. The 'quick fix' the Paizo guys posted was 'just treat them as elixirs instead' - thus establishing something of a precident that Craft Wonderous Item can be used to make pseudo-potion elixirs (which are like potions... but without the restrictions). So it's not so much RAW as it is the OOC history of potion crafting... ;)
The point is, on table 15-29 (page 550 of the Core book) a 'single-use, use-activated, spell effect' costs exactly the same as a potion to craft - and a Potion is the example. Since elixirs and other 'single-use' Wonderous Items do exist we end up in a situation where it takes DM fiat to stop characters just using Craft Wonderous Item to make better-than-potion potions.
It also makes no in-game sense at all to rule that one 'single-use, use-activated, spell effect' item requires you to not only know the spell in question, but to also expend it for crafting, and another 'single-use, use-activated, spell effect' allows you to ignore all that just by upping the DC to the item crafting skill check. Spell-trigger and spell-completion items requiring the actual spell knowledge makes sense - as that's the same knowledge you need in order to use the item. Needing that specific spell knowledge for only one sub-set of use-activated items and none of the other makes no logical in-game sense whatsoever.
If you need the spell knowledge and spell power to craft a potion, then why not an elixir? If you need it to craft an elixir, then why not any other Wonderous Items? In fact, why not just go back to the bad old days of making all the item crafting prerequisites hard and fast requirements?
This (re-)nerf takes one of the things I was personally impressed that Paizo had fixed and removes it. While I'm aware that nobody's out to impressive me in the slightest, I can't follow the in-game or the rules logic on this one at all.
If a Sorcerer can buy a scroll to make a potion, he's better off buying the potion. Same price, and potions should be just as available.
Scrolls cost half as much as their potion equivalents, so yes - buying a scroll and then using it for the spell power to craft your own potion does cost the same as just buying the potion in the first place... so nobody is ever going to do that - they'll just buy the scroll. With this new (re-)nerf potions are back to being stuff you never buy and never craft, but occassionally show up as NPC loot...
Mosaic |
I think people are underestimating the utility of potions. The ability to brew a potion is not useless.
Some benefits of potions:
• ANYONE can drink one. Spell-caster brews them and hands them out to party members. Particularly useful for those times when spell-caster can't get to people to buff them, or when multiple people need an effect, like Cure, in the same round.
* Not everyone has ranks in UMD, so not everyone can fudge a wand or scroll. And, though cheaper than a scroll (or the same price if you buy a scroll, scribe it, then make a potion of it), there are plenty of situations where even a spell-caster can't safely use a scroll.
• You can drink a potion while under the effects of Silence, which will shut down any spell casting with verbal components, or while grappled, which will shut down spell casting with somatic components. Don't need no holy symbol to drink a potion. No Concentration check to drink one either in bad weather or while entangled.
• If you have the Accelerate Drinker trait, you can guzzle a potion as a move action, like an Quickened spell without taking up a higher spell slot.
• Once a wizard or wizard buys a scroll and scribes it into her spellbook/familiar, she can brew that potion infinitely. Initial cost + lasting benefits = good investment.
And I'm sure there are others. My point is, there are and always have been, reasons to take Brew Potion other than the ability to churn out potions you didn't have the spells to cast. Potions are the ultimate emergency spells-in-a-can. Witches and wizards still have a ton of potential spells and easy ways to add more, clerics and druids have access to any of their spells, sorcerers may take a hit but I'm not sure brewing potions is their niche anyway, and alchemists, if alchemists have a limited list of formula, then it's either too short, or is short because it is focused and that's the way it's supposed to be.
Being able to brew a potion of a spell you don't know just seems strange. Want the potion? Go find the spell. Do research, borrow or steal a spellbook, buy a scroll, learn the spell next time you level up. All those fit with the fantasy idea of doing "research." In literature, brewing strange potions takes time and research, not brew-a-Potion-of-Anything-in-2-hours-in-a-dungeon.
I do agree that this know-the-spell rule should probably be the case for all magic items, including wondrous. I'm running a Kingmaker campaign right now, so there is plenty of down time for crafting, and the PCs being able to make anything only being limited by their levels, rather than the spells they actually know, is a pain. One could fiddle with Cooperative Crafting and allow only one person to posses the item crafting feat and the other to know the spell; might make getting help more beneficial.
ProfPotts |
I think people are underestimating the utility of potions. The ability to brew a potion is not useless.
Not 'useless' but simply very, very, very sub-par.
• ANYONE can drink one.
The same goes for any 'use-activated magic item', including elixirs.
* Not everyone has ranks in UMD, so not everyone can fudge a wand or scroll.
But chances are good that someone in the party can.
• You can drink a potion while under the effects of Silence, which will shut down any spell casting with verbal components, or while grappled, which will shut down spell casting with somatic components. Don't need no holy symbol to drink a potion. No Concentration check to drink one either in bad weather or while entangled.
The same goes for any 'use-activated magic item', including elixirs.
• If you have the Accelerate Drinker trait, you can guzzle a potion as a move action, like an Quickened spell without taking up a higher spell slot.
So it's worth taking Brew Potion if you happen that take that one Trait... I can agree on that.
• Once a wizard or wizard buys a scroll and scribes it into her spellbook/familiar, she can brew that potion infinitely. Initial cost + lasting benefits = good investment.
'Cos Wizards and Witches were in dire need of more advantages?
Being able to brew a potion of a spell you don't know just seems strange...
Why? Unlike a spell-trigger or spell-completion item you're not using the knowledge of casting that spell in your creation of the magic item - you're just creating an item with an effect based on a spell for rules purposes.
... Want the potion? Go find the spell. Do research, borrow or steal a spellbook, buy a scroll, learn the spell next time you level up. All those fit with the fantasy idea of doing "research." In literature, brewing strange potions takes time and research, not brew-a-Potion-of-Anything-in-2-hours-in-a-dungeon.
As I believe is pointed out up-thread, potions in literature are nearly always specifically made because the person making them can't otherwise just cast the spell. Also, if you're enforcing 'research time' on crafting potions, then why not enforce research time on crafting magic swords, or rings, or bags of holding? Maybe the research time required is part and parcel of the time it takes the craft the things in the first place? As for the concept of crafting magic items whilst advanturing - without that rule would any active PC ever bother with the Item Crafting Feats at all? Crafting whilst adventuring is an option available to make the item crafting Feats worthwhile for active PCs, and isn't limited to potions - it applies universally across the board.
I do agree that this know-the-spell rule should probably be the case for all magic items, including wondrous...
Which, I feel, comes down to the heart of the matter. Either the rule is used or it isn't. Making spell knowledge required for spell-trigger and spell-completion items, but not others, makes sense (how can you create an item which requires special knowledge to use if you don't have that special knowledge yourself?). Making spell-knowledge required for all magic item creation makes sense (but as shown by 3.X D&D severly limits the utility of the item creation Feats and tends to shunt them into 'NPC only' territory). Making spell-knowledge required for potions but not any other 'use-activated' magic items (including elixirs) makes no sense at all - to me, at least.
Kevin Andrew Murphy Contributor |
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Hmm, I can see the reason for the ruling, but I'll have to see how it goes in play. My initial reaction is that I don't like it that much because it pretty much forces alchemists to use Master Craftsman + Craft Wondrous Item to make elixirs for all sorts of things they used to make with potions, and since elixirs aren't potions, various alchemist powers don't work with them. Which has the net effect of having the alchemist, to be the most effective he can be with his skills set, pestering the wizards and clerics to make the potions he needs.
I think for my own games I'm going to house rule that an alchemist can add spells to his formulary that he can't use for infusions but can still use for potions via Brew Potion, and he can get a formula for his formulary either by getting a wizard's spellbook with the necessary spell or else finding a potion of the necessary sort and doing alchemical analysis--which destroys the potion, but gives him the formula so he can replicate it.
That would have alchemists out questing for new formulae rather than doing the routine of "Okay, I add +5 to my difficulty to make something I don't know about but remove that by upping my Int etc."
Witches? I'd let the familiar work as a formulary, then let them learn new potion recipes but only in a coven setting with a couple other witches who also need to have the cauldron hex. One of them should probably be a hag too. And to keep it from letting them get all of them, limit it to one new recipe per coven at the dark of the moon. That would give witches a reason to run off to sabbats and even gather for grand sabbats.
Those changes would leave alchemists and witches as the uncontested potion kings and queens without making the scenario "Sure, give me a couple hours and I can make a potion of anything." If the alchemist has to quest for a formula or a sample potion, or the witch has to wait for her monthly women's retreat (and convince her two covenmates, including the hag, that this month they need to make X potion and not the projects the other two are working on), that adds enough of a wrinkle to make it something other than instant service without making it impossible.
see |
Off the top of my head:
Potions for Everyone
#1 A character’s brewer level equals the character’s ranks in Craft (Alchemy). Brewer level replaces caster level for the Brew Potions feat, whether for qualifying for the feat or for determining the caster level for a potion. An alchemist may substitute her alchemist class level for brewer level.
#2: All potion brewers keep a potion book, which contains the recipes for the potions they can create and which they reference when making a potion. Characters who keep spellbooks or formula books, or who store spells in their familiars, do not need to separately record potion recipes for spells or formulas in those books; they may use the spellbook, formula book, or familiar directly as a potion book. Potion recipes can be recorded in the same book as spells or formulae.
To add a potion recipe to the book costs the same as adding a spell to a wizard’s spellbook. To add a spell’s potion formula to a potion book, the character must have the spell prepared (or known, for spontaneous casters), or decipher the magical writings and copy the spell from a spellbook, a formula book, another potion book, or a scroll.
An alchemist may reverse-engineer a recipe from a potion by making a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell’s level) to decipher its recipe (expending the potion in the process), and recording the recipe in her potion book at the normal cost.
#3: No potion brewer can make a potion without having the spell for the potion in her formula book, nor unless her brewer level is equal to the minimum caster level at which the spell can be cast. Neither requirement can be bypassed. The DC to make a potion is increased by +5 if the brewer does not have the spell or formula on one of her class lists.
#4: The Craft Wondrous Item feat cannot be used to make single-use, use-activated items that duplicate potions. The Brew Potions feat can be used in place of the Craft Wondrous Item feat to make single-use, use-activated wondrous items.
Allia Thren |
Off the top of my head:
Potions for Everyone
#1 A character’s brewer level equals the character’s ranks in Craft (Alchemy). Brewer level replaces caster level for the Brew Potions feat, whether for qualifying for the feat or for determining the caster level for a potion. An alchemist may substitute her alchemist class level for brewer level.
#2: All potion brewers keep a potion book, which contains the recipes for the potions they can create and which they reference when making a potion. Characters who keep spellbooks or formula books, or who store spells in their familiars, do not need to separately record potion recipes for spells or formulas in those books; they may use the spellbook, formula book, or familiar directly as a potion book. Potion recipes can be recorded in the same book as spells or formulae.
To add a potion recipe to the book costs the same as adding a spell to a wizard’s spellbook. To add a spell’s potion formula to a potion book, the character must have the spell prepared (or known, for spontaneous casters), or decipher the magical writings and copy the spell from a spellbook, a formula book, another potion book, or a scroll.
An alchemist may reverse-engineer a recipe from a potion by making a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell’s level) to decipher its recipe (expending the potion in the process), and recording the recipe in her potion book at the normal cost.
#3: No potion brewer can make a potion without having the spell for the potion in her formula book, nor unless her brewer level is equal to the minimum caster level at which the spell can be cast. Neither requirement can be bypassed. The DC to make a potion is increased by +5 if the brewer does not have the spell or formula on one of her class lists.
#4: The Craft Wondrous Item feat cannot be used to make single-use, use-activated items that duplicate potions. The Brew Potions feat can be used in place of the Craft Wondrous Item feat to make single-use, use-activated wondrous items.
What?
#1: Pretty sure you need Master Craftsman to replace your CL with ranks in the skill#2: Potion book?
#3: according to the FAQ you can't make any potions of spells that you don't have prepared.
#4: Dunno about this