***MAY contain Rise of the Runelords SPOILERS***
Well, yeah I do fail as a GM.
I just switched from 4th Ed. to PF (and I THANK GOD for that), and we decided to start with Rise of the Runelords Adventure Path.
We just got to Thistletop's 1st level, and they battled Lyrie Akenja. I mean, clobbered her. I did as the instructions said, at the beggining of the battle she cast on herself mage armor and mirror image. But somehow I just couldn't handle the thing well (the statblock has plenty of stuff to acknoledge and use...).
My luck is that my players are as ignorant of the game as myself, so when they win easily, they just feel more powerful and, well, happy. But I'd like to give them the right challenge, make them feel pressured, cause this will get old soon.
Is there any guide around about GM preparation, some tips, etc? We're having fun, and still getting the grasp of the rules, but I really want to give them a good time by feeling the pressure of it.
Also, I read that as the levels rise up, it becomes even more difficult for the GM to administrate things! I'm panicking already!
Thanks a lot in advance!
Rise of the runelords was written for 3.5, there were alot of minor adjustments both to CR and to the classes that could have impacted this with no fault of your own. I would strongly recommend checking out the AP boards for RotRL and ask for specific help there. Many have run this AP in pathfinder and would have advice on what challenges specific to that adventure might come up.
No need to panic. All new dms have difficulties. It is part of the experience. If we were all master dms the moment we sit down it wouldn't be as worthwhile to do.
Step 1: Don't panic.
Step 2: Take a look at what they are doing and using and read the pertinent sections in the book that cover the abilities and tactics they are using. You don't have to read the entire book in one shot, but being familiar with key areas and how the abilities/spells actually work is very helpful. Many people forget this step.
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Can you be more specific about what happened and the kinds of trouble you were having? For instance:
(*) What about Lyrie's statblock was giving you difficulty? Was it keeping track of the spell effects? Not knowing what they all did? Something else?
(*) What about the encounter seemed like it was a failure? Did the PCs simply stomp her quickly? Was it something else? You said that the players seemed to be having fun, so what was bothering you?
(*) How has the rest of the campaign gone so far? Have you been having trouble all along, or did something specific to the encounter with Lyrie prompt this post?
(*) What classes and levels are your PCs?
My PCs steamrollered Lyrie too, don't worry.
A single low-level Wiz should not be a challenge to a whole party, especially not in the location she's presented.
In retrospect, I wish I had employed her as part of the NPC response to the attack on Thistletop, possibly as part of a coordinated attack with Orik and Bruth. I didn't run it that way though, I ran it as presented and got results similar to you. I was pretty rusty with 3.5 when I started Runelords.
If you're feeling like a softie,
Keep at it, man. GMing is a war, not a single battle.
It's also important to understand that occasionally a party will steam roll what was supposed to be a big boss. Perhaps the dice were in their favor, perhaps they pulled off a killer combo. Let them have their moment, learn from it, and move forward knowing that the dice and luck can be a fickle mistress, and works both ways.
I am also a some-what noob GM who is running RotRl. If you use a laptop, the combat manager program made by Kyle Olson is awesome for tracking initiative and other things. It also has all the monster stats included for easy reference! It won't help as much for NPCs (though all the PFRPG NPCs are in the database, 3.5 ones are not, so no Runelords).
http://combatmanager.com/
Also, a lone wizard taking on a party in a tight space is at a disadvantage probably, at least at this level. If she had lightning bolt...
There is plenty of nasty fights in the lower level of Thistletop, so I wouldn't worry too much about ol' Lyrie...
Yeah I ran RotRL when Pathfinder was in Beta, and my group not only stomped her, they managed to capture and interrogate her as well. Stuff like that can happen if the PCs have a hot run of dice rolls while the DM suddenly can't roll over a 5. If you have the money, or access to another player's books, check out the Gamemastery Guide from Paizo, that has a lot of tips on overall GMing
Thanks a lot for replying you all!
I do not intend to switch systems or give up GMing, I think it's a great role to play on the table and I love PF!
Here's some data on it:
Lyrie is found in a rather small room, and I put her in the farthest corner so that the Paladin wouldn't get to her so easily.
Oh yeah, the group is: paladin, rogue, cleric and ranger, all level 3.
The Rogue sold that returning dagger they get early in the AP, and bought the paladin a full plate, so his AC is really high. Lyrie was my chance to scare him a lil' bit, cause Ripnugget just couldn't hit him (fricking' smite evil...). I did manage to hurt the party badly in this fight, and as they were in real bad shape (dumb ranger fell on the bridge...)
Anyway, although I was able to slow down the paladin, the rogue won the initiative and rushed to her, sneak attacking her for a buttload of damage. From that it went downhill. The paladin threw a chair at the girl! The corner'd her and beat her to a pulp. I tried to shatter the paladin's sword, but he's got pretty high defenses!
Also, I just forgot about her wand -_-...
Now Orik did a great job hurting the paladin (they're negotiating with him right now), and although Ripnugget encounter gave them a pretty hard time, they have pretty much beaten every encounter without much damage.
I know I need to handle cover/concealment and lighting better, but I belive Lyrie's room was lit.
Anyway, that's how they kicked her samosas.
EDIT: Oh yeah, I *AM* using Kyle Olson's combat manager! It's awesome!
Single high-level enemies are hit and miss against a party of PCs; it often boils down to who gets to act first. That's built into the game, and it doesn't have anything to do with your GMing style.
One thing to beware of is the temptation to add a few levels to a lone spellcaster like that; then you risk the possibility of a TPK if your spellcaster gets initiative and casts a save-or-die type spell.
My group's run through, they took out nuallia with a (expletive) hideous laughter spell from a gnome bard. They beat the snot out of Orik, and he turned coat on his employers (of course, he turned again at a later date and took off in the night with a heavy warhorse, masterwork breastplate, and a magical bastard sword when they left him to guard the horses).
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That sounds like just about every other fight I've heard or read about against Lyrie. Honestly, she goes down pretty fast. She's a single level 3 (or level 4 if you're using a version that keeps the CR the same) opponent against an entire party - they act four times as often as she does, and she doesn't really have any tricks that they don't have decent counters for. I think you did just fine (wand notwithstanding - it's really not that impressive an offensive option in the first place).
Yeah, I've no intention to kill 'em, I just want them to feel pressured! There is still Nualia, Malfeshnekor and the giant hermit crab for them to handle, so they can't be in really bad shape when they come.
Oh, about the same happened with Tentamort, but it WAS kinda weak. He did sting the Rogue though, just after he was bit by a goblin dog. XD The others laughed pretty hard at him.
One word.....Xanesha.
One word.....Xanesha.
One word.....Xanesha.
*cowers*
He spoke the name of She Who Shall Not Be Named!
Erylium actually gave my party the worst time-of course, she started out by shattering the barbarian's sword, taking him pretty much out of the fight. The party barely survived, ran away, and came back with several spare weapons each.
Just out of curiosity: do you guys give the PCs chance to rest in dungeons like this? Or run awar, buy stuff and come back?
I did let them rest between the base and the 1st level, but I'm not sure I should have.
I would've thrown some goblins at them (or even yeth hounds) but they were kinda in a bad shape.
Just out of curiosity: do you guys give the PCs chance to rest in dungeons like this? Or run awar, buy stuff and come back?
I did let them rest between the base and the 1st level, but I'm not sure I should have.
I would've thrown some goblins at them (or even yeth hounds) but they were kinda in a bad shape.
I don't give them a chance, but they can take one if they're clever. Keep them on their toes, but if they find a good hiding spot and wait it out, let them rest. Of course, you should put some thought into what's going on while they are resting, and they might be found.
In general, once Nualia and/or gobs are dealt with, the third floor can wait. They should rest after taking down Nualia.
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There's a drastic difference between 3.5 NPCs and PF NPCs. Just for comparison, I present you the PFRPG final boss of Burnt Offerings:
NUALIA CR 5
Male Aasimar Cleric 3 Fighter 3
CE Medium Outsider (Native)
Init -1; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +4
Aura Fury of the Abyss (+1) (5/day)
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DEFENSE
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AC 16, touch 9, flat-footed 16. . (+7 armor, -1 Dex)
hp 58 (3d10+3d8+18)
Fort +9, Ref +2, Will +7
Defensive Abilities Bravery +1; Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee +1 Sword, Bastard +10 (1d10+4/19-20/x2) and
Claw +8 (1d3+3/20/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Longbow, Composite (Str +3) +5 (1d8+3/20/x3)
Spell-Like Abilities Daylight (1/day), Strength Surge (5/day)
Cleric Spells Known (CL 3, 8 melee touch, 4 ranged touch):
2 (2/day) Bull's Strength (DC 14), Shatter (DC 14), Weapon of Awe
1 (3/day) Divine Favor, Cure Light Wounds (DC 13), Cause Fear (DC 13), Enlarge Person (DC 13)
0 (at will) Bleed (DC 12), Detect Magic, Mending, Virtue (DC 12)
--------------------
STATISTICS
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Str 16, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 15
Base Atk +5; CMB +8; CMD 17
Feats Channel Smite, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Sword, Bastard, Power Attack -2/+4, Toughness +6, Weapon Focus: Sword, Bastard
Skills Acrobatics -3, Climb +1, Diplomacy +4, Escape Artist -3, Fly -3, Intimidate +11, Knowledge: Religion +9, Perception +4, Ride -3, Stealth -3, Swim +1
Languages Celestial, Common
SQ Armor Training 1 (Ex), Aura (Ex), Channel Negative Energy 2d6 (5/day) (DC 13) (Su), Cleric Domain: Strength, Demon, Spontaneous Casting
Combat Gear +1 Breastplate, +1 Sword, Bastard, Brass Knuckles, Masterwork Longbow, Composite (Str +3); Other Gear Holy symbol, silver: Lamashtu, Sihedron Medallion
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Channel Negative Energy 2d6 (5/day) (DC 13) (Su) - 0/5
Daylight (1/day) (Sp) - 0/1
Fury of the Abyss (+1) (5/day) (Su) - 0/5
Strength Surge (5/day) (Sp) - 0/5
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Armor Training 1 (Ex) Worn armor -1 check penalty, +1 max DEX.
Aura (Ex) The Cleric has an aura corresponding to his deity's alignment.
Bravery +1 (Ex) +1 Will save vs. Fear
Channel Negative Energy 2d6 (5/day) (DC 13) (Su) A good cleric can channel positive energy to heal the living and injure the undead; an evil cleric can channel negative energy to injure the living and heal the undead.
Channel Smite Channel energy can be delivered through a Smite attack.
Cleric Domain: Strength Granted Powers: In strength and brawn there is truth–your faith gives you incredible might and power.
Damage Resistance, Acid (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Acid attacks.
Damage Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Cold attacks.
Damage Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Daylight (1/day) (Sp) Daylight once per day.
Demon Associated Domain: Evil
Fury of the Abyss (+1) (5/day) (Su) 30'r aura grants +2 AC and +2 to saves
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Spontaneous Casting The Cleric can convert stored spells into Cure or Inflict spells.
Strength Surge (5/day) (Sp) Grant +1 to a melee atack or strength check.
0_o
Wow! Brutal!
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Random nitpicks (which are probably HeroLab's fault): that's not at all what Fury of the Abyss does, and the claw attack is wrong in both its attack and damage calculations.
Still, she's a beast. I like her better as an anti-paladin, though.
Yeah, I didn't bother to triple-check her - just make an example that PC class buffs + "CR = class levels - 1" rule = much tougher NPCs.
Actually, PFRPG Xanesha is going to be scary...
If you're looking for a good guide on it, I would seriously check out the Paizo Gamemastery Guide. It has some great tips for new and experienced DM's and it's definitely worth the cost!
As far as what I've done in the past, as the DM you learn to anticipate what your players will do.. at least, to some degree. Grab a copy of their character sheets and run through a few simulations to see how easy/difficult a fight will be before putting them up against it. The key to a good DM is preparation. If you find that your players are a little more/less lucky then you would have hoped, make it seem a bit more dramatic then it is, and fudge a few numbers to make the fight more interesting. Just make sure you don't go overboard making it drawn out and boring. :)
Edit: And as a DM I find that you should keep REALLY good track of your players health.. while a BBEG getting a devastating crit on a player can be dramatic, when it goes from a stable amount to well under their death threshhold.. it is no longer fun for the player that died or the DM. A Dramatic hit leaving them at 2 hit points can be much more effective.. even leaving them at 0 and putting them into disabled can be much more effective.
[snip] Edit: And as a DM I find that you should keep REALLY good track of your players health.. while a BBEG getting a devastating crit on a player can be dramatic, when it goes from a stable amount to well under their death threshhold.. it is no longer fun for the player that died or the DM. A Dramatic hit leaving them at 2 hit points can be much more effective.. even leaving them at 0 and putting them into disabled can be much more effective.
YES, putting characters in the "danger zone" is much more dramatic than just killing them. I can remember fights where we were just expending heals (when your wizard is trying to use the wand of cure moderate wounds, it's usually a scary fight) to keep the front line somewhat intact.
To help with tracking the PCs: note cards. BAB, AC, HP, saves, skill bonuses (especially Perception and other "invisible" skill checks); when picking encounters, these are HUGE helps.
But your base problem ISN'T YOU - the Runelords AP was made for 3.5 characters. Of COURSE PF characters are going to walk all over it. Just like Iron Heroes or Fantasy Craft would, even limiting their casters the way they do. All D20 systems are NOT created on the same level; just because it balances internally doesn't mean that it plays well with others.
Gorbacz has the right idea; re-make the encounters you want the party to be challenged by using those rules from Beta or from the Bestiary to re-stat the encounter.
And don't feel bad about Lyrie; as indicated, if the party makes enough noise (or if goblins fail morale saves and run for help), she is HUGE on the counter-offensive, with Orik and the bugbear as a front line.
Rhishisikk has it right, dramatic health situations are great as long as you give them a short time to recover and you stress it's importance. Miss a swing or two when going for the deathblow unless it's dramatically appropriate, and even then fudge it so they get knocked into unconsiousness. Also try to 'roll' stabilization rolls for them as well. No one likes a character death, I only really introduce it when it's thematically important for the story and there's always a way for them to come back. However, if they repeatedly challenge death and go out of their way to be reckless.. no need to hold back unless everyone is enjoying the suspense. :D
Hey,
We ALL fail as game masters. I've been GMing for over 20 years, and I still fail regularly. Like many other highly complex processes involving chance and skill, failure is part of what we do. Remember, a GREAT baseball player is the guy who can hit the ball ONE TIME out of three.
Now, that being said, The question of Good GM / Bad GM boils down, in my opinion, to two things.
1. How do you deal with failure in the moment?
It is actually not THAT bad to have your party kill an NPC in a slaughter like that. In the long term, it does little damage. You can readjust for the next encounter by making things a little more challenging.
When YOU know as the DM that you are approaching a TPK, then you have a real situation. That's really hard to deal with, probably a discussion for another time. It WILL happen to you, so think about it.
2. Are you players having fun in the long term?
If the campaign is repeatedly and predictably too easy for the players, they will get bored. Danger is critical to make this game fun.
If the campaign in repeatedly and predictably too hard for the players, they will get frustrated. Not being able to win destroys the fun of the game.
That being said, you have a lot of opportunities to balance things out and learn from processes. Just be aware, as you seem to be, of the power balance, and keep up the good work. Sorry for getting on my soapbox, but I hope this was helpful.
Lavachild
Also, read the Rise of the RuneLords' section on these boards. IF you are running RotRL straight from the box, then a Pathfinder group "IS" going to walk thru alot of it. Pathfinder characters are tougher. Especially if you use traits and APG/Ultimate Magic/ Golarion source material.
My characters are just about finished with Sins of Saviors, they started the week Pathfinder came out. ALOT of things they walkthru, now, notsomuch.
Erlyium was a near TPK for my group as well. But it helped them learn nice things like, the joys of "aid another", delaying actions, holding actions and moving during combat. Strangely, it wasn't Xanesha that caused them problems. It usually isn't the bosses...its the things just before bosses.
But that is my group, Xanesha is B.A. ESPECIALLY if you play her smarter than the write up. That is why she has a several threads devoted to TPK's :P
Greg
I'll second the GMG. You are pretty much who that book was written for.
As for the rest of the campaign, I would highly recomend making Nualia an anti paladin. Six levels of that class is nice and scary for the party. When I ran it I made her a summoner and had Lyrie in the room with her. Messed up big time when I statted out Lyrie though, and gave her no ability to attack other than a hand cross bow...so after the group smoked Nualia with a spectral handed ghoul touch and then cutting her head off, the invisible Lyrie in the far corner basically threw in the towl.
From my understanding Ironbriar in the next book is something of a walk over. I statted him up as a rediculously old elvin magus, and upped his serial killer semi retired vibe to make him as freaky as I could.
Take your time. It takes some experience to master the skill of simply looking at a statblock and instantly realizing wether this encounter will be a pushover or a TPK or just how much in between.
Until you master that you should prepare thoroughly. Read through all of the NPCs abilities and try to formulate a tactic based on what you know of your players favorite styles. If necessary adjust the villains abilities/spells a bit.
For instance:
If you have a CN Barbarian who always charges the BBEG ignoring/overrunning anything in between and being able to dish out horrendous amounts of damage on a full attack then you might be inclined to change the spell list of a caster BBEG a bit to match that expectation (Fog Cloud, Create Pit, Slow...)
BUT, not each and every encounter should be rock hard. Mix and match! Have the PCs steamrolling wimpy guards that hardly do any damage and beg for mercy after only one of them falls. Describe how the mighty spells/punches annihilate the opposition (smoking boots style), play to their egos.
Then enter Xanesha :)
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***MAY contain Rise of the Runelords SPOILERS***
Well, yeah I do fail as a GM.
I just switched from 4th Ed. to PF (and I THANK GOD for that), and we decided to start with Rise of the Runelords Adventure Path.
We just got to Thistletop's 1st level, and they battled Lyrie Akenja. I mean, clobbered her. I did as the instructions said, at the beggining of the battle she cast on herself mage armor and mirror image. But somehow I just couldn't handle the thing well (the statblock has plenty of stuff to acknoledge and use...).
My luck is that my players are as ignorant of the game as myself, so when they win easily, they just feel more powerful and, well, happy. But I'd like to give them the right challenge, make them feel pressured, cause this will get old soon.
Is there any guide around about GM preparation, some tips, etc? We're having fun, and still getting the grasp of the rules, but I really want to give them a good time by feeling the pressure of it.
Also, I read that as the levels rise up, it becomes even more difficult for the GM to administrate things! I'm panicking already!
Thanks a lot in advance!
It's already been said, but don't worry.
Lyrie isn't very tough. And if the PC's got her alone, she is a pushover. That isn't a flaw, it's a design.
Running a game is a challenge, but second guessing from the DM chair is going to drive you nuts. Believe me, your players will be challenged at various points, and you will get more comfortable at about the same pace as the AP gets more complicated.
It will all work out.
We just got to Thistletop's 1st level, and they battled Lyrie Akenja. I mean, clobbered her. I did as the instructions said, at the beggining of the battle she cast on herself mage armor and mirror image. But somehow I just couldn't handle the thing well (the statblock has plenty of stuff to acknoledge and use...).
The problem is that the instructions are not very good. To play Lyrie to her abilities, she would most likely use a combination of obscuring mist, minor image and spider climb to fool the party into attacking the wrong target (the illusion) and position themselves badly, then cast sleep.
But if your party is as inexperienced as you mentioned, it's probably a good thing you didn't do that :)
I think the main thing you can do to prepare yourself is get accustomed to the full caster's spell lists, especially the wizard's.
Is there a good, comprehensive resource of monster conversions for this adventure? And is there a certain point where the encounters become ridiculously easy? I thought that I've read that most of Burnt Offerings is fine as is, but I can't remember if that's true or not.
Is there a good, comprehensive resource of monster conversions for this adventure? And is there a certain point where the encounters become ridiculously easy? I thought that I've read that most of Burnt Offerings is fine as is, but I can't remember if that's true or not.
There is over on d20pfsrd.com
A lot of the monsters have been statted up in the Bestiary (or Bestiary 2) e.g. sinspawn, etc.
One word.....Xanesha.*cowers*
He spoke the name of She Who Shall Not Be Named!
But please don't ignore Malfeshnekor that is coming up very soon!
Thanks a lot for the responses guys!I'm converting the monsters so that they can stand up for the challenge!
Of course you fail as a GM...anyone using pre-written crap rather than coming up with their own campaigns fails as a GM...I should think that would be common knowledge.
Wow. That's some opinionated ignorance right there.
I'll be sure to let my players know that the Runelords campaign that they've enjoyed for the last three years was a "fail".
If you can't make a module or AP work with your GMing skills, I wouldn't want to set foot in your homebrew. I'm sure the whole campaign you've created is as arrogant and dismissive as your last post.
Of course you fail as a GM...anyone using pre-written crap rather than coming up with their own campaigns fails as a GM...I should think that would be common knowledge.
fail as human
It may be trite, but I'll throw in a "you'll get the hang of it". Seriously, the more you play with a certain group of characters, the more used to their tactics you'll get, and the better you'll be able to adjust encounters to compensate and make the game more challenging.
I've been gaming for almost 30 years and I still have trouble making encounters "just right". More often than not, they end up being slightly too hard or slightly too easy.
Devilstrider, you did quite a good job, nobody died and everybody had fun.
I understand your worries for the future, but till level 6-8, it will still be easy, after that spells, buffs etc. are very broad.
For the rest, just keep coo, some encounters will be too easy, some too hard, that's life and more realistic than the "you'll encounter exactly what you can handle" life.
Oh, and never ever let them catch you fudging dice, or even worse, admit that you did.
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Of course you fail as a GM...anyone using pre-written crap rather than coming up with their own campaigns fails as a GM...I should think that would be common knowledge.
I hope I'm not the only person who flagged this.
Rude, crude and without redeeming qualities. Sometimes people really let themselves down on messageboards but, thankfully, Paizo isn't that kind of forum.
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***MAY contain Rise of the Runelords SPOILERS***
Well, yeah I do fail as a GM.
I just switched from 4th Ed. to PF (and I THANK GOD for that), and we decided to start with Rise of the Runelords Adventure Path.
We just got to Thistletop's 1st level, and they battled Lyrie Akenja. I mean, clobbered her. I did as the instructions said, at the beggining of the battle she cast on herself mage armor and mirror image. But somehow I just couldn't handle the thing well (the statblock has plenty of stuff to acknoledge and use...).
My luck is that my players are as ignorant of the game as myself, so when they win easily, they just feel more powerful and, well, happy. But I'd like to give them the right challenge, make them feel pressured, cause this will get old soon.
Is there any guide around about GM preparation, some tips, etc? We're having fun, and still getting the grasp of the rules, but I really want to give them a good time by feeling the pressure of it.
Also, I read that as the levels rise up, it becomes even more difficult for the GM to administrate things! I'm panicking already!
Thanks a lot in advance!
My players captured Lyrie which meant... awesome roleplaying scenario! Seemed to me that kicking her backside was pretty good for the game.
It's not about challenge, it's about putting a smile on your players' faces. Sometimes that comes from challenge, but not always.
More broadly, you have a group that is designed to do well at low levels but they'll rue the lack of top-drawer spellcasting once they hit 9/10.
Oh, and ROTRL conversions are generally ace check these out.
Okay, I haven't GMed RotRL yet, but I have sticky notes all over my modules. I write basics of spell effects of the villans, poisons (these are a pain for the new DM!) and basic monster stats. Saves with the flipping and makes for a smoother game. You can move the stickies to the back of your GM screen when you want to use the book. Handy! Oh, and they're colour-codable.
Plus the Condition cards are worth their weight in gold. Not only do they tell you as GM what saves the PCs have to make, it tells them.
I hope I'm not the only person who flagged this.
No need to flag. I'd rather calmly inform him that he is demonstrably wrong.
Oh, and ROTRL conversions are generally ace check these out.
+1. They do peter out around book 5, so I guess I'll have to contribute some of my own soon. Good to give back.
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Did ya'all have fun?
If aye then....