Recently I've been wanting to give up on roleplaying and move onto something less stressful, like anything else.
I have been the GM for my group of friends for quite a while now, about a year and a half. I have had a lot of fun running games for my players, originally only about four other people. Within that time, Pathfinder has gotten a lot more popular, and a lot of my friends had become interested in playing it. At first that was great news! All of my friends interested in my favorite roleplaying game? I was excited.
But then they decided that I was the one that was going to run games for them. All of them. And they didn't seem to act like I had a choice. About 12 different people were bugging me, almost constantly, to run a Pathfinder game for them. I was certainly not comfortable running a game for a party of twelve, and I tried to tell them this. They all seemed to agree that it was unfair to make me run games for all of them, but not one of them wanted to be the one that was left out. Some of them became angry at me when I sat down with my old party to start a new campaign. Some of them aren't talking to me right now. The point of the game is to sit down with your friends and have a great time, maybe kill a young green dragon or two, but now people are mad at me for not including them.
Maybe its just me, but when you have to lie and play behind other people's backs, I'm not having fun any more. I've gotten to the point where I almost want to quit playing, indefinitely, because its stressing me out that much. But I know its not the game, its the players that are ruining it for me.
I didn't post this to ask for advice on my situation. I'm tough enough to just tell them "no." What I'd like is for people to post their reasons on why they believe Pathfinder is so fun. Stories of great times around the table. Because I want to be reminded why I don't want to give up on playing this great game. I want to hear how fun it can be.
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WE BE GOBLINS, YOU BE FOOD !
Seriously, I recently faced something similar.
A few words of advice :
Don't give up on the people.
Explain them it's just not fun to DM 12.
Ask one of them to grow balls and become DM for the other group.
tell them it's best to Split in two groups :
One of five plus their DM
One of six with you.
After all, adventures being written for 4 PCs, it's bad enough to run for 6.7.8 like I do.
On top of it : DON'T GIVE UP !
though take a vacation from GMing for three months if you have too.
Your plauyers will thank you when you come back.
Frankly, I don't have to be playing Pathfinder. I've had just as much fun playing AD&D (1 & 2), D&D 3.5e, Amber, GURPS and even 4e.
Part of it, for me, is hanging around with my friends. We play like clockwork every other Friday and a few times a year at cons - in fact, now that most of them don't make the cons any more, the cons are a lot less fun.
Another part of it for me is the creation aspect. For years now I've created a world bit by bit and populated it, I've created a plot both in reaction to and in advance of the players, and kept a campaign journal.
The last bit of it is those magical moments when you've got a evening that just gels - when everything comes together and everyone has a great time.
--
It might be too late now, but perhaps you could put it to the 12 players themselves - let them know you really can't run a table larger than six, and ask them how they want to handle it.
For example, if you play weekly, since they're unwilling to step back or step up, perhaps you could run two groups on alternating weeks. Or perhaps you could just dig your heels in and say "no," you're not going to run. Period.
Well, I did suggest to them to maybe run a game for themselves. When I first started GMing, I didn't know any of the rules and I did fine. But the general response I received was "Being the GM is dumb and its not fun and its dumb you do it." Coming from that group, it wasn't a surprising response.
But I wanted to hear stories of how great the game can be. Maybe I should start.
My old group was trying to help some recently homeless villagers find a new place to live. They travelled with these villagers until they found a tower occupied by a green dragon. More of a chaotic neutral party, they figured they could just convince the dragon to watch over the villagers for them and leave. The dragon, being a mean not-so-nice dragon, decided that he would love the villagers as a snack, and perhaps trick the adventurers as well. The dragon was interested in a tome of magic and agreed to let the villagers live with him if the party acquired this tome for him.
Our oracle, who had the lame curse, managed to convince the dragon to give the party a ride to their destination, as it would have taken them quite a long time to get there on foot. The instant he climbed onto the dragon's back, he attempted to cast enlarge person on himself.
The ensuing battle was hilarious. The party won on initiative, and the monk went first. He attempted to flying kick the dragon, and rolled a natural one. Three times in a row. He ended up drawing the critical fumble card that knocked him out. Right under the dragon. The ranger cast entangle, getting the dragon, the oracle on his back, and the passed out dwarven monk beneath. The party rogue refused to fight a dragon and ran off into the forest. The party eventually won, barely, with the dead dragon almost collapsing onto the passed out monk.
My party was so happy. They managed to kill a dragon, although a juvenile one, and each took a part of the dragon to carry with them as a trophy.
I have some experience managing big groups. it´s true that for more than 6 players, its hard to keep the pace (combat, im looking at you!!!) however, my bests experiences came, when a friend wanted to stand up and GM too.
What we did, was awesome, we split the table in two parties of five players each, and each party started in a different city, (This was done in the Realms, for those who know a bit of the setting, Arabel and Daggerford) we crafted a story where both parties needed to work togheter in order to preserve their realms/kingdoms. A few political assasinations later, both parties were cooperating between themselves to find clues, often sending emisaries to the other table with clues and information to strength the bonds.
By the end of the campaing they mounted a coordianted assault between their forces (and kingdoms) while one party assaulted the walls, the other sneaked inside the castle via a secret passage, in order to open the gates.
It was really amazing, seeing such cooperation and roleplay.
a few tips:
*focus on roleplaying, rather than rollplaying.
*Make sure that all the groups have cooperative objetives. (Its ok to follow your own agenda, but when it starts to break the group cohesion... it just sucks.) -You can handle backstabbing in a small party, but in a larger one, its just a waste of time, unless you can use it to thick the plot a bit.
*take special care in crafting bonds between the chars.
*use an aide to keep track of the combat stuff. we used a whiteboard with all useful data (Hp, init, Attack bonus, Saves)
But the general response I received was "Being the GM is dumb and its not fun and its dumb you do it."You count these jerks as -friends-?
They seemed like such nice people, till this stuff happened. Although to be fair, not all of them acted this way. One of my friends even asked if he could borrow my books and run a game for me, since I never get to play. Nice guy.
They seemed like such nice people, till this stuff happened. Although to be fair, not all of them acted this way. One of my friends even asked if he could borrow my books and run a game for me, since I never get to play. Nice guy.But the general response I received was "Being the GM is dumb and its not fun and its dumb you do it."You count these jerks as -friends-?
Solution:
"Sure, I'll GM. Yes, all of you can play. Each session has a cap of 5 players. Players with the lowest experience total have priority, and I reserve the right to pick players if everyone is interested."
Running this way ("Guild-style") can be really nice in some regards, in terms of always having people interested in slipping into available slots rather than finagling EVERYBODY into one particular day. Also, you can set your encounters up beforehand with no problems in terms of CR vs expected players. On the flip side, it feels more like a series of 1-shots and less like a campaign.
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They seemed like such nice people, till this stuff happened. Although to be fair, not all of them acted this way. One of my friends even asked if he could borrow my books and run a game for me, since I never get to play. Nice guy.But the general response I received was "Being the GM is dumb and its not fun and its dumb you do it."You count these jerks as -friends-?
Being a GM is the most ungrateful job in the universe. At the end of every sessions, I ask my players if they had a good time. Everybody always answer "yes", but I never heard the words "thank you" from them.
Well, I did suggest to them to maybe run a game for themselves. When I first started GMing, I didn't know any of the rules and I did fine. But the general response I received was "Being the GM is dumb and its not fun and its dumb you do it."
Sounds to me like you should be getting paid to DM. After all, people hire goalies for amateur hockey (because playing goalie is boring, hard and has more expensive equipment). Doesn't even have to be that much, either, just enough to get enough people to bow out.
Pathfinder is 'fun' because it's the dominant RPG. Nobody had to re-learn everything from 3.0/3.5 D&D. There are some changes, but there's no big learning curve unless you're new to the game entirely. People are lazy - after all, that's why nobody is volunteering to DM. DM'ing is the most labor intensive part of RPGs; people will play almost any game so long as they don't have to run the game itself. I've seen people pay hundreds on books in a new system because the GM wanted to run it (just to get a change from running game X, where if someone else would DM, no-one would have to spend a dime).
Don't get me wrong, I like Pathfinder - a lot. It's high fantasy, the rules are reasonably simple (or at least, well reasoned), and your character gets to do awesome stuff. And that's what people want - their character to do awesome stuff.
What about encouraging some round-robin style Pathfinder play, like the Pathfinder Society? You could start, and you have a campaign-mandated maximum table size (of 7). Others would need to step up to get more gaming in. Some of my favorite RP moments have been in organized play games.
Just this weekend, a line that never failed to start a fight with an NPC was: "We're Pathfinders. You know, professional explorers and tomb robbers. Where did you say your grandparents were buried?"
Being a GM is the most ungrateful job in the universe. At the end of every sessions, I ask my players if they had a good time. Everybody always answer "yes", but I never heard the words "thank you" from them.
I occasionally get the off-hand comment that I am the "best" and that I am "awesome... but only on Friday" (which is when we play the game).
I remember once that I ran a game where I told my PCs that the burden of creation of the world sat as heavily upon their shoulders as it did mine-- basically, if they played a character, they should try to flesh out their subset of the world as much as possible.
One person contributed a good deal of ideas, no one else added much if anything, and one player insisted that his order of holy knights flew around on giant bats.
I think it is a secret curse that I actually like to run these games.
I dunno about everyone else's metagame, but my players (in fact, the majority of players in my area) are great. They make it a point to thank me for hosting the games, inviting them into the party, and putting work into GMing pretty often. Also, when something cool happens, they express appreciation for it (sometimes on these here boards).
But moving on. A story was what OP wanted, and a story he'll get.
I set up an easy (CR = APL -1 or -2) goblin encounter for the party, on their way to trying to root out the foul magicks afoot (Arcane magic is generally looked upon with a mixture of fear and disgust in this setting). For all intents and purposes, this could have been a 2, maybe 3 if the party gets bad rolls, round combat against a bunch of mooks. They were going to find orders at the camp somewhere to meet the hobgoblin leaders at [X] location after slaying them.
Instead, the party's halfling cavalier/bard who worships Cayden Cailean rides up to them, carefully, and greets them warmly, offering them each a mug of ale. Warily, after he proves it isn't deadly poison, they accept. Drinking it, they begin to talk, and offer him a seat. One lets something about the bosses slip, and the goblin 'leader' silences him. The bard asks nicely to hear him continue, and challenges the leader to a drinking game for the info. A bunch of fort. saves later, the leader drops unconscious, and the booze is gone. One goblin wanders off to find more booze, most of the remaining get unruly and attack, but the party later catches up to one of them, finds out info about the hobgoblins, and, after slaying them, the goblin, now unemployed, is offered a job as the local military's chef.
They turned my mob encounter into a social interaction and my mook into a named NPC.
I know you asked for stories about what's good, to help get you motivated to continue, but I'm gonna step out on a limb and say you SHOULD take a break. From all of it. Being a good DM/GM requires inspiration, and taking some time for yourself to be reminded what's so good in life in general will help you see what's great about PF. Make sure everyone knows it's a break, and "you'll be back" after your batteries are recharged.
My bet is, once you're away for a few weeks, you'll start to get motivated to create, and it's not far from that creative impulse to "I can't wait to spring this on my players!" THAT, for me is what's great about running Pathfinder or any game. Getting to share what you've created with others. It's an art, and when it flows naturally, it's amazing!
As for your too many player problems (oy, I should have such problems), I'll leave that to others. There are lots of good suggestions here.
I feel your pain. If it was the group size that was the problem, it's do-able but can be very hard. I was the usual DM for our old group, which at one point had 11 players at once. Once that campaign was done, we agreed as a group to set a limit of 6 players. If everybody wanted to participate, we would have to set up multiple groups, and trade off weeks. It worked for a little while, until both campaigns imploded due to scheduling conflicts, as often seems to be the case with my games. If it's due to DM burnout, take some time off as DM. Tell someone else to take over for a while. I did this same thing last fall, and it was great. I'd almost forgotten how fun being a player was. I'm now prepping a new campaign for a new group.
Now, I'll stop giving the advice you didn't want to begin with. :p
The best times we had around the table were probably with the aforementioned 11 player party. We delved into many of the PC's stories in that campaign, especially towards the end. Most of the group was sent 20 years into the future, and forced to deal with things that had happened because of their absence. The other members were from that future. I'll go over one of the more memorable ones.
WARNING! LENGTHY STORY AHEAD!
Note: This campaign was Forgotten Realms, but all we used was the map and city/town/mountain/other landmark names.
Our half-elf bard, Jaxon Roqster, used to be the King of Neverwinter's personal entertainer...until he knocked up the king's daughter. So, he fled the kingdom and became an adventurer. Or that was the plan. He did manage to escape, but he left his gear back at the castle, including his prized lute. Well, he manages to make it to the next town over, and after a few weeks gets some basic gear together, and by chance his brother who has been searching for him for the past decade runs into him. Anyways, his brother is the party rogue, and promises that they'll help get his lute back, so long as they can loot the treasury while they're at it. So, they attempt this, are captured, and pretty much traded away as slaves to settle a debt. Well, they were being sent away on a ship, which wrecked. A long series of events ended in them accidently being sent into the future by Jaxon bungling playing a magical musical instrument which would send them home.
After a long journey, the party finds themselves in Neverwinter, and Jaxon is understandably nervous. After all, last time he was here, old King Richard traded him away to settle a debt. Things get worse when they see wanted posters hanging up for Jaxon. So, the party decide to head out of town and set up camp in the nearby woods. They could leave Jaxon at camp, then head back to town to resupply and whatnot, since the posters only specify Jaxon. Well, as they're about to set up, Jaxon gets this great idea; the rest of the party could turn him in for the reward, then break him out later. That would sure stick it to the king. So, they decide to go along with it. They tie Jaxon up, then head strait for the castle. When they get there they are brought before the king...who is not who they expected at all. In the old, human kings place, there sits a half-elf, who looks remarkably like Jaxon. As it turns out, it was his son, the newly crowned King of Neverwinter. The princess, who was the former king's only offspring, had died during childbirth. The King himself had passed away only weeks ago, and Eli, Jaxon's son, posted wanted posters up everywhere, hoping to eventually meet his father. The party were treated to a feast.
Mid-meal, Eli asked Jaxon to follow him, and told everyone else to continue with the meal. He led Jaxon out of the room. As soon as the door shut, every other door to the dining hall slammed as well, and locked. Two of Eli's guards seized Jaxon, and restrained him. Meanwhile, the rest of the party was disturbed by the fact that all the doors had slammed and locked. Then, what they thought were just oversized decorative suits of armor, which were really iron golems, came to life and tried to kill them. While the rest of the party dealt with the iron golems, Eli gave Jaxon a guilt trip from hell for not being there for him. The former king hated Eli on account of his mother's passing. He would beat him at times, for no reason at all. Somehow, it had gotten into Eli's head that none of this would have happened had Jaxon not fled the kingdom to begin with. After several diplomacy checks (many which were botched, and caused Eli to punch Jaxon, and even stab him once), Jaxon was able to convince Eli it wasn't his fault.
In the dining hall, the other party members were having a tough time with the iron golems. The only ones doing any damage were the druid and mystic theruge, while everyone else tried to distract them. Many PCs were down to single digit hit points by the time Eli came in and instructed the golems to stop their attack. Eli apologized profusly, and gave everyone a magic item made by his court wizard.
After a few weeks living in luxury, Jaxon was given the title of Duke, and assigned to meet with the King of Mithral Hall, to discuss a new trade bargin. The rest of the party was told they would be rewarded for accompanying him. Then our dwarven fighter started trying to come up with reasons not to go. But maybe I'll tell that one later.
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For the last couple years I have been learning the trade of GMing and become the other primary GM for a player pool of 14. This way both GMs get to be players in an ongoing campaign that the other runs. I of course got better by running Modules or Adventure Paths. You may try and woo one of your primary players into picking up the trade and helping you out, especially if you like to play.
Logistically, we created a private Facebook group and use that to coordinate events. Which are currently Kingmaker, Council of Thieves, a revolving GM game we are calling Adventurer's Club (for the thrill of adventure, allows a revolving door for PCs and Players as well) and a team based PvP game called The Great Planar Tournament. Facebook is really what makes the 4 games at once possible.
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A dozen players in a game. Not fun, takes too long to come back around to any given individuals turn. Take no more than 6, ever. Make that your policy and never yield it. Try to keep the game to 4 or 5.
You are the only person who GMs. Then don't do it. Tell them you are throwing your gm hat in the street, so you can light it on fire, and never intend on getting a new one.
The players are jerks. Eh... not much you can do about it aside from ignore them, be a bigger jerk, or try to correct them by calling them out on their douchebaggery.
Tired of the game, take a break, then try it again from the perspective of a player, not a gm. No one runs? Find another group, if you can't, then find something else to do.