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So if a Gargantuan Silver Dragon uses their change shape ability and takes the form (via change shape~polymorph~alter self) of a medium humanoid - how does it affect their natural armor class? ability scores? etc?
I can see there being changes due to the size in CMD/CMB and some natural armor, etc - but can a medium humanoid shape retain the majority of the statistics and natural armor?
Thanks in advance for your insight.
-Vlorn
I'm pretty sure in human form a dragon has human stats, which means no natural armor for example. After all their skin is not scaley and hard anymore, but soft and squishy.
Same if a human changes into a dragon, they gain the dragons natural armor, and don't keep their own, non-existing one.
int/wis should stay, cha... maybe, physical stats would depend on the new form.
So if a Gargantuan Silver Dragon uses their change shape ability and takes the form (via change shape~polymorph~alter self) of a medium humanoid - how does it affect their natural armor class? ability scores? etc?
I can see there being changes due to the size in CMD/CMB and some natural armor, etc - but can a medium humanoid shape retain the majority of the statistics and natural armor?
Thanks in advance for your insight.
-Vlorn
If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magic.html#polymorph
Creature's Original Size Str Dex Con Adjusted Size
Fine +6 –6 — Small
Diminutive +6 –4 — Small
Tiny +4 –2 — Small
Large –4 +2 –2 Medium
Huge –8 +4 –4 Medium
Gargantuan –12 +4 –6 Medium
Colossal –16 +4 –8 Medium
So the dragon would have
–12 strength, +4 to dexterity, –6 con, and then +2 strength for assuming the form of a medium creature with polymorph (listed under alter self)
Original stats.
Str 27, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 20, Wis 21, Cha 20
so a 17 strength (not inhuman but probably pretty surprising) 14 dex, 15 con.
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To add to Norse, you would also keep the Silver Dragon's natural armor. While it may not "make sense" the rules don't mention that you lose any of your existing natural armor bonus, simply that you gain a natural armor bonus. If a DM wanted to rule differently though, it would definitely make sense.
To add to Norse, you would also keep the Silver Dragon's natural armor. While it may not "make sense" the rules don't mention that you lose any of your existing natural armor bonus, simply that you gain a natural armor bonus. If a DM wanted to rule differently though, it would definitely make sense.
It makes sense to me. A dragon's natural armor comes from it's scales. Just because the scales have changed shape to look like skin, doesn't mean they became skin.
To add to Norse, you would also keep the Silver Dragon's natural armor. While it may not "make sense" the rules don't mention that you lose any of your existing natural armor bonus, simply that you gain a natural armor bonus. If a DM wanted to rule differently though, it would definitely make sense.It makes sense to me. A dragon's natural armor comes from it's scales. Just because the scales have changed shape to look like skin, doesn't mean they became skin.
Nope. Pretty sure you loose the natural armor.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
Change Shape (Su) A creature with this special quality
has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific
creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but
retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature
cannot change shape to a form more than one size category
smaller or larger than its original form. This ability
functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in
the creature’s description, but the creature does not adjust
its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the
creature it mimics). Some creatures, such as lycanthropes,
can transform into unique forms with special modifiers
and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores,
as noted in their description.
Polymorph
This spell transforms a willing creature into an animal, humanoid or elemental of your choosing; the spell has no effect on unwilling creatures, nor can the creature being targeted by this spell influence the new form assumed (apart from conveying its wishes, if any, to you verbally).
If you use this spell to cause the target to take on the form of an animal or magical beast, the spell functions as beast shape II. If the form is that of an elemental, the spell functions as elemental body I. If the form is that of a humanoid, the spell functions as alter self. The subject may choose to resume its normal form as a full-round action; doing so ends the spell for that subject.
Alter Self
When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet.Small creature: If the form you take is that of a Small humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity.
Medium creature: If the form you take is that of a Medium humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength.
Emphasis mine. So, it seems that a gargantuan dragon couldn't use it's change shape ability to turn into a medium creature. They could use the spells, however, which say nothing about losing abilities, just gaining them.
EDIT: Sorry, I need to read more closely, yes they would lose any supernatural/extraordinary abilities, but is natural armor considered supernatural/extraordinary?
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Emphasis mine. So, it seems that a gargantuan dragon couldn't use it's change shape ability to turn into a medium creature. They could use the spells, however, which say nothing about losing abilities, just gaining them.
Change Shape (Su) A silver dragon can assume any animal or humanoid form three times per day as if using polymorph.
The change shape for a silver dragon is more specific than the general change shape. When it says any humanoid or animal form I think that gives it leave to bypass the normal size restrictions on the change shape ability. I dont think there's an animal it COULD turn into otherwise.
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Here's basically how it would end up: the dragon shapeshifts into a medium sized humanoid, but his skin, despite appearing like that of a human, is still tough enough to bounce swords off of it. A good example is the skin of Superman or more likely Luke Cage, go ahead, try to stab either of them, it's not going to take. Besides that isn't too far off from what a necklace of natural armor does anyway.... aside from being a lot tougher, unless you are being intimate I don't think anyone will notice.
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Actually, from a design perspective I always thought that Dragons changing into humanoid races was more of a roleplaying thing, and as such they simply had different ability scores that correlated with their draconic ability scores.
So, for example, when a Gold Dragon assumes a humanoid form, he gains all the statistics and abilities of said human form and loses all his dragon abilities, essentially making each dragon two separate characters; the human component and the dragon component.
That's just my take on it, anyways.
The Blacksmith turns into a Dragon and EATS YOU !
its funny that since shape change is using polymorph spell rules dragon actually gets a +2 STR bonus because its using the alter self part of polymorph to change into a medium humanoid
If you wanted to run an all dragon PC game, making them all silver/gold dragons and then enforcing shapechange to keep them humanoid for the most part is one way of giving player the chance to play dragons without the hassles of being gargantaun all the time.
Actually you could have a very interesting campaign if Good Dragons are mercilessly hunted so you PC group of dragons must hide themselves with shapechange and risk being discovered if they every use thier natural forms.
kinda like saga edition Jedi after the fall of the republic, you could use jedi powers but you risk being identified as a jedi and hunted down.
Actually, from a design perspective I always thought that Dragons changing into humanoid races was more of a roleplaying thing, and as such they simply had different ability scores that correlated with their draconic ability scores.
So, for example, when a Gold Dragon assumes a humanoid form, he gains all the statistics and abilities of said human form and loses all his dragon abilities, essentially making each dragon two separate characters; the human component and the dragon component.
That's just my take on it, anyways.
Consider that instead of losing any abilities the dragon in human form is wise enough to pretend he lacks those strengths and abilities to maintain he illusion he is just human, the whole point of appearing as human is to not be identified as a dragon, if you went around using all your inhuman abilities well people are going to get wise pretty quick your a dragon in human form.
Silver Dragon with 17STR in human form masquerading like an old man with only 5STR makes perfect sense to me.
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Consider that instead of losing any abilities the dragon in human form is wise enough to pretend he lacks those strengths and abilities to maintain he illusion he is just human, the whole point of appearing as human is to not be identified as a dragon, if you went around using all your inhuman abilities well people are going to get wise pretty quick your a dragon in human form.
Odd....I was thinking it's because human women were desirable....why else would there be so many half-dragons?
"[Change shape] functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature's description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores"
A dragon disguised as a human can put another human through a wall with his pinky finger.
"[Change shape] functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature's description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores"
A dragon disguised as a human can put another human through a wall with his pinky finger.
Heh I was going to write the same thing too RD until I read further down the polymorph rules
"If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell."
"[Change shape] functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature's description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores"
A dragon disguised as a human can put another human through a wall with his pinky finger.
Heh I was going to write the same thing too RD until I read further down the polymorph rules
"If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell."
So? You still don't adjust the ability scores.
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Specific Change Shape rules > Specific Polymorph Rules.
Dragons that look like humans can toss wagons around like sacks of potatoes and arrows bounce off their biceps. That is awesome, that is how it is, and that is how I like it.
They still lose the size bonus to carry/lift capacity, so I suspect they lose throwing capacity as well, not that any normal person could really tell.
The Blacksmith turns into a Dragon and EATS YOU !
But does he turn into a black dragon?
Now I have this idea of a red dragon hiding among humans, but because he's too arrogant to be called black, he insists on being called a redsmith!
Dragons that look like humans can toss wagons around like sacks of potatoes
That's how I trick gullible people into thinking that I'm a dragon.
I always pictured polymorphed dragons kinda like DBZ characters. super tough and strong flying brics that shot energy beans and destroy buildings
Change Shape is supernatural -- which means not a spell or spell like -- as such it doesn't follow the rules for spells which are listed in the magic section (i.e. they don't have schools, subschools, etc).
This is actually a major point for most abilities -- always check if its supernatural or spell-like. If its supernatural next check and see if it specifically states it works like something else -- if it doesn't then it doesn't matter what all matches beyond that it's not the same.
Most gargantuan dragons have significant spell casting abilities. A simple veil spell does the same basic effect - and let's the dragon retain its yummeh ginormous carry/lift capacities.
If said dragon has mind blank up as well, not even true seeing will reveal its true form.
So, when the "kobold" whallops some one with, say, a maul of the titans, one can imagine the shock and awe effect amongst the players as they scramble to metagame just how did the "kobold" do that?!
^_^
Most gargantuan dragons have significant spell casting abilities. A simple veil spell does the same basic effect - and let's the dragon retain its yummeh ginormous carry/lift capacities.
^_^
A dragon using veil cannot walk into most buildings without destroying them. :P
So? You still don't adjust the ability scores."[Change shape] functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature's description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores"
A dragon disguised as a human can put another human through a wall with his pinky finger.
Heh I was going to write the same thing too RD until I read further down the polymorph rules
"If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell."
We're talking about a Garganteuan Dragon it is larger than medium thus it does modify its stats based on size change table first and then applies equiv poly spell stat modifiers.
the reason you normally don't apply size modifiers first is because most players are small or medium and this additional rule does not apply to them
Specific Change Shape rules > Specific Polymorph Rules.
Dragons that look like humans can toss wagons around like sacks of potatoes and arrows bounce off their biceps. That is awesome, that is how it is, and that is how I like it.
here's the problem with that
if change shape > polymorph
then the smallest form a Gargantuan Dragon can take is that of a Huge animal or humanoid.
either you follow poly rules which allows Gar -> Medium , or you follow change shape rules and Gar -> Huge.
gotta take full rule set over another you can't just pick the best parts of either and mix them
Specific Change Shape rules > Specific Polymorph Rules.
Dragons that look like humans can toss wagons around like sacks of potatoes and arrows bounce off their biceps. That is awesome, that is how it is, and that is how I like it.
here's the problem with that
if change shape > polymorph
then the smallest form a Gargantuan Dragon can take is that of a Huge animal or humanoid.
either you follow poly rules which allows Gar -> Medium , or you follow change shape rules and Gar -> Huge.
gotta take full rule set over another you can't just pick the best parts of either and mix them
What part of "exception based rule design" and "does not change ability score" do you not get?
I'm familiar with the size changing rules. They don't apply here because it specifically states they don't.
But you are!That's how I trick gullible people into thinking that I'm a dragon.
Dragons that look like humans can toss wagons around like sacks of potatoes
Am not!
Specific Change Shape rules > Specific Polymorph Rules.
Dragons that look like humans can toss wagons around like sacks of potatoes and arrows bounce off their biceps. That is awesome, that is how it is, and that is how I like it.
here's the problem with that
if change shape > polymorph
then the smallest form a Gargantuan Dragon can take is that of a Huge animal or humanoid.
either you follow poly rules which allows Gar -> Medium , or you follow change shape rules and Gar -> Huge.
gotta take full rule set over another you can't just pick the best parts of either and mix them
What part of "exception based rule design" and "does not change ability score" do you not get?
I'm familiar with the size changing rules. They don't apply here because it specifically states they don't.
where in this line is it specifically stating they don't ?
"Change Shape (Su) A silver dragon can assume any animal or humanoid form three times per day as if using polymorph."
Am not!But you are!That's how I trick gullible people into thinking that I'm a dragon.
Dragons that look like humans can toss wagons around like sacks of potatoes
That's what they all say :)
Sorry but I gotta agree with the point that Change Shape should prevent Gargantuan Dragon from more the one size category smaller.
The confluction point is that spell used is polymorph itself which then uses Alter Self.
The kicker I read is in the Silver Dragon description of it's Change Shape. This calls out ANY animal or humanoid form. The ANY is important as this overrides the basic restrictions in Change Shape about size.
Further no ability scores change, not even from the subset of Polymorph (Alter Self).
Silver Dragon ( Change Shape ( Polymorph (Alter Self) ) )
Any from Silver Dragon trumps One Size +/- from Change Shape.
No Stat Change from Change Shape trumps Change from Polymorph.
A dragon using veil cannot walk into most buildings without destroying them. :PMost gargantuan dragons have significant spell casting abilities. A simple veil spell does the same basic effect - and let's the dragon retain its yummeh ginormous carry/lift capacities.
^_^
Bah! Minor detail ... as far as the dragon is concerned. :)
where in this line is it specifically stating they don't ?
"Change Shape (Su) A silver dragon can assume any animal or humanoid form three times per day as if using polymorph."
Change Shape in the Bestiary's Universal Monster Rules glossary reads as follows:
Change Shape (Su) A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature's description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Some creatures, such as lycanthropes, can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores, as noted in their description.
That's where you will find it.
where in this line is it specifically stating they don't ?
"Change Shape (Su) A silver dragon can assume any animal or humanoid form three times per day as if using polymorph."Change Shape in the Bestiary's Universal Monster Rules glossary reads as follows:
Change Shape (Su) A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature's description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Some creatures, such as lycanthropes, can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores, as noted in their description.
That's where you will find it.
and again taking one part of the rules and not the other.
Change Shape (Su) A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature's description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Some creatures, such as lycanthropes, can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores, as noted in their description.
if change shape overrides polymorph as these rules state then the size restriction also overrides polymorph.
Points of discussion
1) Change Shape rules, stats not changed
2) Change shape rules, size cat 1 step only
3) Polymorph rules, size stat changes above and below small/medium
4) SQ Change Shape, word "ANY" and "as if using polymorph".
if change shape overrides polymorph as these rules state then the size restriction also overrides polymorph.
True, but it could be argued that the even more specific dragon entry overrides the more general change shape.
draconic change shape > change shape > polymorph
Upon further reading, however, I do not believe this to be the RAW (though it likely is the intent).
Perhaps a more clear wording such as this would have been better
"Change Shape (Su) A silver dragon can assume any animal or humanoid form that could be assumed by a creature using a polymorph spell, 3 times per day".
That way it is clear that only the variety of forms available to the polymorph spell is what is being offered and nothing to do with the spell or its effects.
for example a long winded version would of instead say
SQ Change Shape silver dragon can assume form of , rat, boar, badger, tiger, human, dwarf, elf etc etc etc
listing every possible form
Kinda feel like I got ignored there. :P
The ANY of the Silver Dargon entry trumps the size restriction of default Change Shape.
A Silver Dragon can assume ANY animal or humanoid form, it's stats do not change from any part of Ploymorph.
A Silver Dragon in the form of a sparrow can likely break a castle wall if it wished.
Kinda feel like I got ignored there. :P
The ANY of the Silver Dargon entry trumps the size restriction of default Change Shape.
A Silver Dragon can assume ANY animal or humanoid form, it's stats do not change from any part of Ploymorph.
A Silver Dragon in the form of a sparrow can likely break a castle wall if it wished.
I agree that this was the intent.
That's what they all say :)Am not!But you are!That's how I trick gullible people into thinking that I'm a dragon.
Dragons that look like humans can toss wagons around like sacks of potatoes
What more evidence do you need than lots and lots of testimonies clearing my name?