Except you don't have to kill a god to gain XP. You can kill mooks and you get XP. And I think becoming a god should be more involved that simply killing things that are 5 CR below your level.
I wouldn't call anything CR 20 a mook, no matter what your level.
I do agree that the level system should cap somewhere in the demigod area, before true deities. I am in favor of the old Immortals system where a God is their own rank. A level 1 God should be able to swat a level 36 mortal.
I wouldn't call anything CR 20 a mook, no matter what your level.If you're level 30, then yeah, a CR 20 enemy IS a mook, much like a CR 10 enemy is a mook to a level 20 character.
Depends on the creature. I'd say a CR20 fire elemental is definitely a mook to a level 30 character. A level 21 spellcaster? Not so much.
Depends on the creature. I'd say a CR20 fire elemental is definitely a mook to a level 30 character. A level 21 spellcaster? Not so much.I wouldn't call anything CR 20 a mook, no matter what your level.If you're level 30, then yeah, a CR 20 enemy IS a mook, much like a CR 10 enemy is a mook to a level 20 character.I don't disagree, but I think that goes to having to do with an implicit assumption of the differences between a generic monster and a creature with class levels.
A generic monster is a creature presented as-is out of a monster book, with no advancements, and as such needs no real backstory, no matter what it's CR. It's an average representation for its kind, and so requires no particular development to justify how it came to reach its level of power - it's just one among many.
Poor Tarrasque, you are just one among many.
I disagree. There shouldn't be enough critters of that high CR running around that you can consider any of them "mooks". I guess I just run my high level game differently, but I tend to have fewer fights against tough but important characters/creatures.
Sure, they also fight hordes of mooks sometimes. But those are usually handwaved. How many guys can you hit? Ok, 7 orc warriors are slain.
I didn't mean to imply that "you're doing it wrong" if you do it differently. Just that I think at that things of that CR should start to be more unique.
If my group were to storm the gates of Orcus's castle (which they wouldn't do, since he remains dead in my game) I would have an army of countless demons led by a few, specific Balor Lord Generals. Beef them up to CR = party level. Then they have some specific unique foes to fight and hordes of Vrock and Glabrezu to deal with as well.
If you want hordes of Balor that is ok too. I just prefer a different style to my high level games.
On planet Falx, the Tarrasque is indeed one among many. ;-) (bonus points if you know the reference!)
Does it count Google-searching :P ?
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Bleh. Gaining divinity should be more than a matter of simple killing enough orcs (ie, gaining enough XP / levels).
Arguably, if the XP costs were high enough, one might have to wipe out several entire species of low CR foes to attain godhood. That would be kind of cool, if you were going for a "god of genocide" sort of thing. It would certainly make the history books of the world.
I didn't mean to imply that "you're doing it wrong" if you do it differently. Just that I think at that things of that CR should start to be more unique.
If my group were to storm the gates of Orcus's castle (which they wouldn't do, since he remains dead in my game) I would have an army of countless demons led by a few, specific Balor Lord Generals. Beef them up to CR = party level. Then they have some specific unique foes to fight and hordes of Vrock and Glabrezu to deal with as well.
If you want hordes of Balor that is ok too. I just prefer a different style to my high level games.
All depends on level. When the party is level 40 or higher, pretty much anything has to be tweaked in some way, even the "cannon fodder."
Gotta say though, my party was pretty unhappy when they faced 6 paragon purrodaemons, even though the daemons were massively out-CRed. They didn't realize quite how much they depended on the fighter's ability to crit at will and force saves vs. death due to Devastating Critical until it was taken away. And swords of wounding are pretty nasty.
Ever since the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook, I've been interested in a revision of the spell system. I HATED the epic spells and the whole means by which spells more powerful than 9th level spells were dealt with.
I wondered why a 3rd level spell with a feat that bumped it up two levels, and a 4th level spell with a feat that bumped it up one level, and a 5th level spell were all considered to be roughly equivalent (in certain terms), but, an 8th level spell with a feat that bumped it up two levels, and a 9th level spell with a feat that bumped it up one level, and a 10th level spell were not all considered to be roughly equivalent.
After all, for some reason, there was something goofy about a 10th level spell that meant an 8th level spell bumped up two levels and a 9th level spell bumped up one level were both okay in a "10th level spell slot" but that it was somehow TABOO for there to be 10th level spells.
Further, there were all kinds of existing spells that could have a "mass" or a "greater" variant that could easily be 10th or 11th level.
I didn't get it, at all.
So, I made up a bunch of spells of my own, up to 15th level, using the scaling rules in the DMG and following the same sorts of progressions that were normally seen for spells in the first 9 levels.
Maybe I'll write to the designers with my ideas....
Does anyone know the publications for 2012? Any sign of an Epic Level Handbook?
Does anyone know the publications for 2012? Any sign of an Epic Level Handbook?
2012
Advanced Races GuideUltimate Equipment
(Unannounced - likely Bestiary 4 or maybe a big NPC book.)
So no sign of Epic level in 2012. 2013 if we are lucky.
I really hope that epic or at least playtest epic comes out in late 2012. I've got 14th level PCs, and even with the slow track XP, I doubt I will be able to drag out their arrival at epic until 2013.
I do!
Does anyone know the publications for 2012? Any sign of an Epic Level Handbook?2012
Advanced Races Guide
Ultimate Equipment
(Unannounced - likely Bestiary 4 or maybe a big NPC book.)So no sign of Epic level in 2012. 2013 if we are lucky.
Yes, I hope so too. Although I will admit I was a bit disappointed that when talking with some of them at Gen Con, it really didn't seem like it was on their mind (for a Mythic book). Jason did say he felt he had a really good idea in regards to it, but the way he (and the others) acted, it just isn't on their radar right now. However, they did say they are aware that many do want it.
Yes, I hope so too. Although I will admit I was a bit disappointed that when talking with some of them at Gen Con, it really didn't seem like it was on their mind (for a Mythic book). Jason did say he felt he had a really good idea in regards to it, but the way he (and the others) acted, it just isn't on their radar right now. However, they did say they are aware that many do want it.
To be fair, anything that is over a year away isn't really going to be on the radar. Even if they decide that winter 2013 will see the release of Mythic Adventures, they wouldn't really even start to think about for a while.
While I'm certain the staff has ideas floating around, I doubt they really know what direction they want to go after Ultimate Equipment.
I want epic.
Mainly because I'm OCD and enjoy making character builds up to retarded levels.
Well, that and I like making some epic NPCs for my settings as iconic or godlike plot points.
Well if the Ultimate Equipment is already planed I suppose there's nothing to do but come on another bestiary, I enjoy the bestiary like any other but I think it is time for Epic rules, the longer time it take to be published it will be less probably that happen or at least thats what I think
Here's some easy epic rules for you, that when you boil them down, equate to what most epic rules consist of:
When epic enters combat with non-epic, epic wins.
When epic enters combat with epic, winner of initiative wins.
Non-combat? What's that?
Since a thread about this topic was locked I will start two new threads one for and one against. Keep it civil otherwise the thread will be locked and lets try to not have that happen again.
I will start the ball rolling. I am in favor of an official product that supports Epic play. I think PF could use one ot round out what I think is missing in the rules and to compete on equal terms with 4E and 3.5.
I have never had a group get high enough to justify the epic level stuff, and no group that wanted to start that high. However, for pure interest sake as a DM I would love to see some epic level stuff. More than anything, though, I would love a complete Epice Level Bestiary. 300 pages of monsters starting at CR 21 and going up from there. That would be some good stuff.
I only want to see Epic content if there are some stories to go with it. I'm not that interested in playing characters who can ACCIDENTALLY level a city rampaging across my homebrew, or any other setting.
If done properly; which I have faith the fine folks at Paizo can do. You've never had a group go beyond 20?
I have never had a group get high enough to justify the epic level stuff, and no group that wanted to start that high. However, for pure interest sake as a DM I would love to see some epic level stuff. More than anything, though, I would love a complete Epic Level Bestiary. 300 pages of monsters starting at CR 21 and going up from there. That would be some good stuff.
For me it has happened only once; they passed 20, if I recall properly, late in 2006. Of course, they're still playing the same characters ...
I also would like an epic bestiary, but I don't really see a full-size bestiary of CR21+ creatures happening any time soon. I still am in favor of the "Part 7 of 6" idea for adventure paths, with an associated high-level bestiary. That would be cool.
If done properly; which I have faith the fine folks at Paizo can do. You've never had a group go beyond 20?
Nope. The closest we every came was about level 14 after playing the same campaign for about 2 years. Not sure why the fizzle out about then, but that is a pretty consistent cut off point.
The only problem with that is GM's like me who don't use AP's and just make my own adventures. It's a good idea still, nonetheless.
For me it has happened only once; they passed 20, if I recall properly, late in 2006. Of course, they're still playing the same characters ...I also would like an epic bestiary, but I don't really see a full-size bestiary of CR21+ creatures happening any time soon. I still am in favor of the "Part 7 of 6" idea for adventure paths, with an associated high-level bestiary. That would be cool.
I agree with Merlin_47 on this one. I make all of my own campaigns, encounters, adventures, and even the world that we play on. I have not used a single AP, and if the monsters or information for Epic level gaming was tucked into an AP it would be lost on me. External books, even if it is a combo book (Epic Level PHB / DMG / Bestiary), would be the best option as I see it.
Here's some easy epic rules for you, that when you boil them down, equate to what most epic rules consist of:
When epic enters combat with non-epic, epic wins.
When epic enters combat with epic, winner of initiative wins.
Non-combat? What's that?
obviously you have not played at epic levels or at least not very well
The only problem with that is GM's like me who don't use AP's and just make my own adventures. It's a good idea still, nonetheless.
Same for me, I am really in favor of the AP #7 idea, as epic needs a strong story and context to work. Perhaps more so than lower level games.
I read the APs, but never play them. I would love to the stories like Kingmaker or Council of Thieves continued into epic territory.
"POWER UNLIMITED POWER"
What date starts the Pre-order?
I say high levels do more to ruin the game's dynamic.
Thus, level 5 needs to be the maximum peak for any race/character.
Based on experience, anything beyond 1st level breaks the game. And if it isn't a commoner, it's definitely too powerful. Even those level 1 commoners are suspect; I call for the return of 0-level characters!
what game's dynamic? I see no reason for a low level cap, if you don't like high levels go and kill some rats and make a party for that, but some of us like to fight against dragons before the lunch
by the way if you don like it exist another thread for that, this is for who wants epic level content
EPIC 4EVER
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Well if the Ultimate Equipment is already planed I suppose there's nothing to do but come on another bestiary, I enjoy the bestiary like any other but I think it is time for Epic rules, the longer time it take to be published it will be less probably that happen or at least thats what I think
I like more monsters myself yet I rather they pass on publishing another bestirary and focus either on an epic book or a psionics book. How may monsters can they do before it becomes reduandant like it did under 3.5. Not to mention with Tome of horrors complete and 3pp support I just cannot see the need to focus on a monster book every year.
i want to, but i hope the system has a few changes like only can level up doing something else (dropping off the xp)
I want epic... but before that, I would love to see several modules that deal with different adventure types (along with designers side bars of course) that would go from level 10 to 20.
This at least would help me so that I don't run level 11, 21, 31... etc like level 1 but with bigger numbers and more dice.
But as a world designer... bring it on, I love stating that stuff out. In my world, I peg the dark eight around level 50-60. This gives the players a ton of wiggle room get up in the higher levels and explains why every 25th level party hasn't conquered hell or the abyss yet.
I can see them doing the spelljammer thing first, then doing more to develop the outer planes before doing an epic/mythic book. I figure that Galorian tops out just over 20th level and therefore the multiverse will need to be expanded to give players and dms more places to go.
Let's face it... give a world as vast as it may seem, there is only a finite number of sentient creatures, meaning that someone somewhere is going to be the highest level critter. By broadening the multiverse it allows for even higher level critters to exist.
Wow, my 2 cents turned into 2 bucks.
I agree with Merlin_47 on this one. I make all of my own campaigns, encounters, adventures, and even the world that we play on. I have not used a single AP, and if the monsters or information for Epic level gaming was tucked into an AP it would be lost on me. External books, even if it is a combo book (Epic Level PHB / DMG / Bestiary), would be the best option as I see it.The only problem with that is GM's like me who don't use AP's and just make my own adventures. It's a good idea still, nonetheless.
For me it has happened only once; they passed 20, if I recall properly, late in 2006. Of course, they're still playing the same characters ...I also would like an epic bestiary, but I don't really see a full-size bestiary of CR21+ creatures happening any time soon. I still am in favor of the "Part 7 of 6" idea for adventure paths, with an associated high-level bestiary. That would be cool.
Same here - the campaign I've been running is 100% from scratch. On the other hand, the adventure paths have a wealth of useful information, and I expect that a "part 7 of 6" would have even more useful stuff than a standard adventure path volume.
I've been subscribing since volume 1, and I have yet to ever run an adventure path, yet I've used stuff from a great number of them.
My guess is we'll see movement in the epic direction in 2013, which will probably be perfect timing for me. Just a hopeful guess though.
I say high levels do more to ruin the game's dynamic.
Thus, level 10 needs to be the maximum peak for any race/character.
Heheheheheheh
I see what you did there.
I'm in favor of this, but I'd like to see more 12-20 products first.
Baby steps, my friends.
Like what? I can see Ultimate Race Ultimate Skill and the bestiary 4 but please what else
Oh yeah put me on for a big plus with 4 more from my gaming group
As long as they still name the epic/mythic book Ultimate Power, I'm satisfied to wait.
I am also interested in Epic level rules, specially if they include a more robust system for Epic spells.
The results of combat using the 3.5 rules was generally 90% preparation, research, and planning, and 10% actual combat.
Fixed that for you.