I don't recall any errata, but spell perfection doesn't change the spell level, and heighten spell only changes the spell level, wouldn't using the two together kind of defeat the purpose of heighten spell?
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I don't recall any errata, but spell perfection doesn't change the spell level, and heighten spell only changes the spell level, wouldn't using the two together kind of defeat the purpose of heighten spell?
The idea would be that you could use Spell Perfection to cast a Heightened Fireball from a 3rd-level slot but still get the benefits of it being Heightened to 9th level.
It certainly doesn't seem overpowered.
I don't recall any errata, but spell perfection doesn't change the spell level, and heighten spell only changes the spell level, wouldn't using the two together kind of defeat the purpose of heighten spell?The idea would be that you could use Spell Perfection to cast a Heightened Fireball from a 3rd-level slot but still get the benefits of it being Heightened to 9th level.
It certainly doesn't seem overpowered.
Wouldn't the errata then need to allow heighten spell to work like this?
Spell Perefection let's you apply a metamagic feat to a spell without affecting its level. Heighten spell increases the level of the spell for purposes of effects dependent on spell level.
How can one increase the spell level without affecting the spell level?
I think I understand the intended use, but I don't see how that use would be allowed as written.
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Ah - I think I must be reading Spell Perfection wrong, then. Basically, the idea is to apply the metamagic without changing the spell level, yes? So the benefit of Heighten Spell (namely, the increased Save DC) cannot be applied using Spell Perfection, because that would necessitate raising the spell level. Have I got that right?
Ah - I think I must be reading Spell Perfection wrong, then. Basically, the idea is to apply the metamagic without changing the spell level, yes? So the benefit of Heighten Spell (namely, the increased Save DC) cannot be applied using Spell Perfection, because that would necessitate raising the spell level. Have I got that right?
No.
How can one increase the spell level without affecting the spell level?
Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level.
That text uses the term "level" as well as "total modified level" interchangeably. All that means is that spell slot the spell must go into must be 9th or lower *without* Spell Perfection. The actual spell level isn't relevant.
That text uses the term "level" as well as "total modified level" interchangeably.
It does? How do you figure.
The actual spell level isn't relevant.
The spell level matters very much for Heighten Spell. For other metamagics, whatever the aspect you're trying to change still functions regardless of level. For Heighten Spell, the level is the thing you're trying to change.
That text uses the term "level" as well as "total modified level" interchangeably.It does? How do you figure.
Because of inference.
The sentence says:
Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level.
That's a long loaded sentence, but the key part in our discussion is:
you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time
What are the two things that typically happen to a spell when you apply a metamagic feat?
1. For spontaneous casters, the casting time increases to a full-round action.
2. For all casters, the total modified level of the spell changes such that it must be placed in a different spell slot. A 3rd level spell Heightened to 5th level must be placed in a 5th level slot. A 3rd level spell Empowered is placed in a 5th level slot. In both cases, the total modified spell level is 5th -- otherwise it wouldn't need to go in a 5th level spell slot. The actual spell level differs: 5th in the first example, 3rd in the second.
If what you're saying is true, you couldn't use Quicken Spell to reduce the cast time of a spell with Spell Perfection. The quote above clearly says the metamagic feat is applied "without affecting its level or cast time". If you don't use inference to understand that they're talking about 2 things above, you misread it.
The spell level matters very much for Heighten Spell. For other metamagics, whatever the aspect you're trying to change still functions regardless of level. For Heighten Spell, the level is the thing you're trying to change.
No, I meant the actual level isn't relevant with its interaction with Spell Perfection. Only the total modified level is relevant.
RAW, you can't use Quicken Spell. I happen to think that's an oversight in the language, however.
RAW, you can't use Quicken Spell. I happen to think that's an oversight in the language, however.
I agree that the language is vague here. But traditionally with 3.X material when you're speaking about metamagic feats, not affecting the level means the total modified level and not affecting the cast time means the extra time added by spontaneous casting.
RAW, you can't use Quicken Spell. I happen to think that's an oversight in the language, however.I agree that the language is vague here. But traditionally with 3.X material when you're speaking about metamagic feats, not affecting the level means the total modified level and not affecting the cast time means the extra time added by spontaneous casting.
Traditionally, with 3.X material, metamagic level reducing often did not work with Heighten Spell.
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RAW is somewhat ambiguous on the matter, but the developers have outright stated that Spell Perfection working in conjunction with Heighten Spell was not their intent.
I am not sure that Spell Perfection and Heighten Spell work together in any way. Spell Perfection prevents a spell from having its level increased by a metamagic feat, and that is really all that Heighten Spell does. Without the level increase, Heighten Spell does not do anything.
I don't have a problem with Spell Perfection as a whole. I do have a problem with using it with Heighten Spell. Its kinda ridiculous.
And if you use spell perfection and heighten spell for an other purpose ?
If for example you use heigten spell to increase a fire ball to a lvl 4 and use spell perfection for a quicken spell. that make 4 + 4 count as 4 with spell perfection. But did the spell perfection double the bonus of the heighten spell (actually +1 lvl to 4 from 3) ?? Who actually would made a lvl 5 fireball quicken for a 4 slot spell ?? (actually the same result as if you had taken the spell focus feat :p).
RAW :
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 15 ranks, at least three metamagic feats.
Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell(such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.
The only thing Heighened Spell affects is the spell level. You don't want to double that as you could just heighen the spell some more if you wanted. Reducing flexibiliy would be a strict disadvantage, but fortunately the increase doesn't seem to be a bonus to begin with.
Well, isn't a disadvantage at all. I mean, if you choose to reduce it, it's because you have a reason. For example you can had 3 level on a lvl 1 spell to become a spell lvl 4, for +3 DC and use the others slot to chose an other meta magic feat.
The real question is more about the bonus. On that case for example, did the +3 lvl count as a bonus or not ? In word meaning it is (your spell lvl 1 become lvl 3, a feat adding numerical add-on), but in rules case maybe not.
Just want to be sure of the answer :).
The thing is if it was a bonus your spell would still need a higher slot to cast it as nothing indicates the second Spell Perfection effect circumvents regular spell casting rules (but I don't think it is a bonus to begin with). This means you could never increase a level 1 spell to level 2 as Spell Perfection would push it right to level 3. Or increase the spell by any odd level number for that matter. And you always need the correct spell slot.
Yeah, just wanted to be sure, thx.
RAW, you can't use Quicken Spell. I happen to think that's an oversight in the language, however.
Not sure I understand this. I've taken spell perfection for shocking grasp. I normally apply quicken (as my free one), intensify (+1 level), and enpower (+2 level) -> 4th level spell slot used, and swift action. How is this not RAW?
The total level would have been an 8th level spell slot so less than 9th. What am I missing?
I couldn't find a FAQ on Spell Perfection & Heighten Spell. However, part of the FAQ on Heighten Spell seems relevant:
Another way to look at (2) it is to add Heighten Spell first, then other metamagic feats. Continuing the above example, you'd first heighten the fireball to a 4th-level spell, then quicken it, which requires an 8th-level spell slot (fireball 4th level + quicken 4 levels). Or first heighten the fireball to a 5th-level spell, then quicken it, which requires a 9th-level spell slot (fireball 5th level + quicken 4 levels).
I feel certain that the way to do it is to Heighten Fireball to actually be a 4th-level spell, and then apply Spell Perfection. If your intent is to cast the Heightened Fireball also Quickened, fine -- you're casting a 4th-level Quickened Fireball in a 4th-level slot rather than an 8th.
Alright, so for you it's possible ? That can change a lot of thinks, overall for others casters class.
