According to the search query, there are about 21k entries for the word 'horse' in the forums.
This question simply revolves around increasing the survival rate of horses in combat.
Here's the setup: We have a party of 3 PCs, a GMPC, a PC's cohort and 2 hirelings. To carry around all our stuff (trying to stay realistic to some degree), we have a wagon that has our goods and other stuff. After all, it doesn't make sense to have thousands of gold on our persons, right? The wagon, itself, is drawn by two light, combat-trained horses.
So what does the enemy do whenever they ambush us on the road?
This is little more than an annoyance and slight drain on the cleric's resources for now, but when the horses start dying because of the massive damage the increasingly difficult monsters inflict, it's going to leave us stranded for periods of time whenever one of these neigh-sayers fall.
I've thought of a couple of ways around it:
- Barding
- Investing in heavy horses
- Preparing animate dead
However, it seems that none of these would be a long-term solution. Barding is not very useful at 10th level, since a horse in breastplate has an AC of 17; if you can't hit an AC 17 at 10th level, go back to your bad guy lair and get laughed at by your kobold underlings until you die of shame. A heavy horse is a similar bandaid, only slightly extending the time until they can be one-shotted beyond repair. Finally, the whole 'having undead horses pulling our cart' is a bit unsavory for the rest of the party on moral grounds; personally, my character has appearances to keep up, so animating horses seems like a big loser all around.
We're looking for ideas of how to transport so many people and gear from town to town, despite the fact that the areas are particularly dangerous of late.
I'm willing to examine any and all available ideas, but I'd like to rely on magic as little as possible.
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I'm willing to examine any and all available ideas, but I'd like to rely on magic as little as possible.
Well, you're running smack dab into some of the core assumptions of the 3E/3.5/PF rule set. Basically, anything past about 5th or 6th level is represents superhuman abilities .
Which means, at 10th level, any normal horse is extremely expendable. Use the Mount spell, more powerful draft creatures (griffons, maybe?), accept that you're going to go through a *lot* of horses, or use magic solutions (bags of holding, handy haversacks, portable holes, teleport, overland flight) as they become available.
Use the Mount spell, more powerful draft creatures (griffons, maybe?), accept that you're going to go through a *lot* of horses, or use magic solutions (bags of holding, handy haversacks, portable holes, teleport, overland flight) as they become available.
Teleport's out, since there are two limitations: 1) we generally don't know where we're heading, and 2) there are more of us than the spell's allowance. The same goes with the mount spell and overland flight: too many users for it to be feasible.
Right now, bag space is at a premium as well. At 10th level, we have a single bag of holding (Type I) and a handy haversack. Bad rolls and low gold have made it difficult to find any more.
As far as more powerful draft creatures, that was something I was considering... like a pachyderm, or perhaps another creature with a tougher hide than the standard horse.
This brings to mind another question: where are the rules on purchasing extraplanar horses, such as Fiendish horses or Resolute horses?
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I'm considering mentioning a horse and cart set up for the guys I play with, this coming thursday, but after reading this I think I'll need to rethink my options.
Yes I can see where you are coming from...the only option is the whole party uses war horses and ditches the cart/wagon
TBH if I was running an ambush the opponents would attempt to kill the humanoids etc so they could steal ALL YOUR gear while it WAS STILL IN THE WAGON....discuss this idea with your GM as I think he's using the horse deaths as his 'sick little jollies'. If he is still unreasonable, discuss options away from the table without GM knowledge with the other players. Options could include:
1 Bags of holding
2 Ditching everything except essential gear (which is 'painful' but it's what i do with my rogue at the moment) including all the shiny money keeping gemstone instead
3 Run a game with the GM playing so he knows how it feels
4 definitley mention the bandits NOT going for horses to transport the loot next time it happens
5 ditch money in one town bank account (Absalom) and settle in that town as a base of operations going out to the Cairnlands for the rest of your party's adventuring life!!
I hope you get this resolved, but like i said, MY bandits attacking MY players wouldn't go for the horses...;D
when you get past say 5th level, you should be looking to magic to help you transport your gear instead of mundane horses and a wagon. I have never been in a party that hasnt pooled resources for a handy haversack or a bag of holding as soon as it was an option. If that is not yet an option things like the mount spell are a must.
If you absolutely must have mundane means of pulling a cart, then consider having a couple PCs take the leadership feat for cohorts that would be more survivable but still able to pull a wagon. Talk to your dm about possibly having something like trained Rhinoceri for cohorts (or wooly rhinos) that can pull the wagons. These would be considerably more survivable (and even an asset in combat) then typical pack animals. It does come at the cost of a feat, but if you dont want to rely on magic, then cohorts is the way to go. Unfortunately there are not solid guidelines on taking animals and monsters as cohorts so you will need a dm willing to listen and help you solve the problem.
Additionally, when you need to carry lots of money convert it to gems or jewelry. You will probably pay a small fee at a money changer in the town you get too... but having 10 gems in your pocket worth say 5K GP each is much easier on the back then carrying all that gold.
Also if no one in your party has done so yet, craft wondrous items feat is very helpful and you can make a haversack for a small amount of money for each party member. Alternately just find a town with a crafting wizard and commission a few of them to be made. You will have to hang out for a week or so, but if you are unable to make them or find them normally that will work.
TBH if I was running an ambush the opponents would attempt to kill the humanoids etc so they could steal ALL YOUR gear while it WAS STILL IN THE WAGON....discuss this idea with your GM as I think he's using the horse deaths as his 'sick little jollies'. If he is still unreasonable, discuss options away from the table without GM knowledge with the other players. Options could include:I hope you get this resolved, but like i said, MY bandits attacking MY players wouldn't go for the horses...;D
It's generally not the sentient humanoids attacking the horses, but rather predators or evil, animated plants with little to no intelligence. They just see a tasty or vulnerable target, and attack it. Since they aren't thinking tactics or using the horses to carry loot, it's not as easy as a GM's grudge.
I'm actually surprised that there is some pushback against the classics.
f you absolutely must have mundane means of pulling a cart, then consider having a couple PCs take the leadership feat for cohorts that would be more survivable but still able to pull a wagon. Talk to your dm about possibly having something like trained Rhinoceri for cohorts (or wooly rhinos) that can pull the wagons. These would be considerably more survivable (and even an asset in combat) then typical pack animals.
I thought of perhaps using a hardier beast of burden, or even perhaps a conjured one, but it seems as though there are no rules for a Mount or other spell to act as a beast of burden, only as a literal mount. You might be onto something about getting a trained creature. Nothing in the rules say that it has to be a cohort (especially since I already have a cohort, and it really doesn't fit the other characters to take the leadership feat).
Also if no one in your party has done so yet, craft wondrous items feat is very helpful and you can make a haversack for a small amount of money for each party member. Alternately just find a town with a crafting wizard and commission a few of them to be made. You will have to hang out for a week or so, but if you are unable to make them or find them normally that will work.
I do have CWI, so I might have to invest some time and money into it. The biggest problem is that the GM rushes us from one adventure to the next, so we hardly have any time to catch our breath, game-wise, between adventures. I also want to establish a base of operations (there's a frickin' abandoned mages tower not a day's journey north of here that we personally cleared out), but the rest of the party complains that we move around too much for it to be of any use.
This is little more than an annoyance and slight drain on the cleric's resources for now, but when the horses start dying because of the massive damage the increasingly difficult monsters inflict, it's going to leave us stranded for periods of time whenever one of these neigh-sayers fall.
If your horses are too squishy, get beasts of burden that are not. Get heavy horses, rhino's or other, more exotic and expensive mounts from your GM's world.
If living mounts are still too fragile, impractical or rare, try to get/make an enchanted wagon that needs no horses to move (a wheeled version of a flying carpet that cannot fly but that can move as directed and can haul cargo should be appropriate) or make construct mounts that have 0 combat ability of their own but are incredibly resilient and have horselike movement.
Or get an intelligent mount and make it a cohort so it can get class levels and get tougher as you do (pegasi for example).
Depending on your level, taking that mages tower, crafting a keyed teleport circle on the top floor (not roof), seal the bottom levels (fill the bottom with stone with using an earth elemental for example) and giveing your companions recall keys of some fashion will give you a homestead you can get to as needed, that will keep out nearly all mundane worries and will give you a secure point to craft at.
Simple answer, just buy more horses. When you go out on expedition, make sure you take additional mounts with you. When you think about it, this is exactly how historical expeditions operated anyway. There really doesn't need to be a magic solution to everything. Buying additional horses isn't expensive and maintaining a train of pack mules and spare mounts is a great RP opportunity as well.
I thought of perhaps using a hardier beast of burden, or even perhaps a conjured one, but it seems as though there are no rules for a Mount or other spell to act as a beast of burden, only as a literal mount. You might be onto something about getting a trained creature. Nothing in the rules say that it has to be a cohort (especially since I already have a cohort, and it really doesn't fit the other characters to take the leadership feat).
f you absolutely must have mundane means of pulling a cart, then consider having a couple PCs take the leadership feat for cohorts that would be more survivable but still able to pull a wagon. Talk to your dm about possibly having something like trained Rhinoceri for cohorts (or wooly rhinos) that can pull the wagons. These would be considerably more survivable (and even an asset in combat) then typical pack animals.
Well mount, summons a light horse or pony. It would operate like any light horse or pony as a beast of burdeon. Magic mount on the other hand, you are right that phantom steed cant be used as a beast of burdeon.
And no, to my knowledge there are no pathfinder rules for buying more exotic animals/creatures, which is why I recommend leadership (for which there is at least some basis), but talk to your dm about potentially purchasing, or even training some yourself with handle animal. See what he has to say, but either way you will need to work with your dm on this.
Does your party have a Druid? Have him wild shape and pull the cart.
Does your party have a Barbarian? Have him be himself and pull the cart.
Strength-focused Fighter? Summoner w/ strength-focused eidolon? Ditto.
Have them pick up the Endurance feat so they get tired out less and use Muleback Cords or Ant Haul to increase their carrying (in this case pulling) capacity. There you go! You have something to pull your cart that levels up with you and can defend itself. And no more need to buy horses.
Or you could invest in a construct to be your beast of burden.
Does your party have a Druid? Have him wild shape and pull the cart.
Does your party have a Barbarian? Have him be himself and pull the cart.
Strength-focused Fighter? Summoner w/ strength-focused eidolon? Ditto.
Have them pick up the Endurance feat so they get tired out less and use Muleback Cords or Ant Haul to increase their carrying (in this case pulling) capacity. There you go! You have something to pull your cart that levels up with you and can defend itself. And no more need to buy horses.
Or you could invest in a construct to be your beast of burden.
I think I'll just work with the GM on creating a self-propelled cart as a Wondrous item. The pieces are there... flying carpets, floating disks, etc.
We'll just see how hard it is to transmute non-moving cart into moving cart.
I once used a shield guardian as a beast of burden.