Can't seem to find one anywhere, but then again I don't have every single manual Paizo makes. Seems to be some of the Archetype Monks' special abilities rely upon causing critical hits, and with the exception of the Temple Sword, every Monk weapon has craptastic criticals.
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Can't seem to find one anywhere, but then again I don't have every single manual Paizo makes. Seems to be some of the Archetype Monks' special abilities rely upon causing critical hits, and with the exception of the Temple Sword, every Monk weapon has craptastic criticals.
A Zen Archer can flurry only with a bow (long or short, ordinary or composite). Other. than that, no.
Currently, no. As a DM, I would happily allow such a feat. Perhaps something like this...
Sword Saint
Your have studied an esoteric monastic fighting style, stressing not only mastery of the body, but also mastery of a single weapon, which you fight with as an extension of yourself.
Prerequisites: Monk, Proficiency in selected weapon.
Benefit: Select a single weapon in which you are proficient. That weapon is considered a Monk weapon for you. In addition, you are considered a Fighter of your level for the purpose of selecting Greater Weapon Focus and the Weapon Specialization line in that weapon.
Special: You may not select this feat more than once.
Alternately, a Kensai archetype which fused monk abilities with the Weapon Master fighter archetype might be interesting.
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Cestus and temple sword both have a 19-20 threat range.
A Monk of the Empty Hand can snag the Improvised Weapon Mastery Feat at level 6 and gets a 19-20 threat range with anything.
But I don't know any Feat allowing a monk to use non-monk weapon for a Flurry (and if there was you can bet you'd have heard about it on the boards, as that would be an eminently abusable thing to be able to do!).
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That would be like having a sorcerer cast divine spells, so no. Too much OP.
A single weapon at the cost of a feat? Hardly.
Paizo has no such generic feat, but this feat will soon appear in a supplement from Purple Duck Games. (You might have to scroll up, it appears the auto-scroll-correct is broken.)
That would be like having a sorcerer cast divine spells, so no. Too much OP.
A single weapon at the cost of a feat? Hardly.
Paizo has no such generic feat, but this feat will soon appear in a supplement from Purple Duck Games. (You might have to scroll up, it appears the auto-scroll-correct is broken.)
It certainly could be. I have a Hungry Ghost monk in my game, who even with a temple sword never runs out of ki. Which means he gets an extra attack or +4 to his AC on almost every single round, and he can ignore the downside to a vicious weapon because he heals for that small amount of damage on a regular basis. If he could spend a feat to increase his threat range by 2 (dropping to 18, then keen or imp crit), he'd do it in a heartbeat, and then he'd never even have to keep track any more...
It certainly could be. I have a Hungry Ghost monk in my game, who even with a temple sword never runs out of ki.
And that's with the current rule set, unless there's a compelling reason as to why adding the rest of the weapons in the Armory are over the top broken, then I don't see any issue here.
And that's with the current rule set, unless there's a compelling reason as to why adding the rest of the weapons in the Armory are over the top broken, then I don't see any issue here.It certainly could be. I have a Hungry Ghost monk in my game, who even with a temple sword never runs out of ki.
So your stance is that if the current rule set verges on broken, adding more options (and thus more powerful combinations) won't break it?
Can't seem to find one anywhere, but then again I don't have every single manual Paizo makes. Seems to be some of the Archetype Monks' special abilities rely upon causing critical hits, and with the exception of the Temple Sword, every Monk weapon has craptastic criticals.
I think your best bet is the Monk of the Empty Hand. Lets you use any weapon you like (albeit as improvised weapons, but the visual is there).
Can't seem to find one anywhere, but then again I don't have every single manual Paizo makes. Seems to be some of the Archetype Monks' special abilities rely upon causing critical hits, and with the exception of the Temple Sword, every Monk weapon has craptastic criticals.I think your best bet is the Monk of the Empty Hand. Lets you use any weapon you like (albeit as improvised weapons, but the visual is there).
Fair enough, and thank you all for your input. Just seemed to be something that irked me given that the Monk seems to be one of the few classes in the game that gets ferociously smacked down in terms of weapon usage, specifically their weapon set seems to be relatively bland and uninspiring.
On the other hand, as has been mentioned, giving a Monk access to a weapon like a Kukri or, Gods forbid, an Elven Curve Blade, and then being able to flurry with that, would simply open the door to a nightmare.
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Dunno, monk has pretty powerful unarmed strike, especially on higher levels. For god's sake he finishes with 2d10! And he gets what seven attacks, eight if you count haste.. That's 16d10 + bonuses...a horrible amount of damage.
9 if they burn a ki point. And the 2d10 isn't considering things like monk robe.
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That would be like having a sorcerer cast divine spells, so no. Too much OP.
That's a good one.
Wait, you were serious?
With the advent of Pathfinder, there's absolutely no difference between a weapon and unarmed strike except the damage dice, weapon traits, and crit range/multiplier. Unarmed Strike has superior damage, manufactured weapons can have traits and better crit effects. That's a fair tradeoff for a feat.
And it would be two feats (or at least a level dip), considering you have to first be proficient before you can take the feat
So your stance is that if the current rule set verges on broken, adding more options (and thus more powerful combinations) won't break it?
The first post I responded sounded as through the Temple Sword Issue was already broken, not verge on broken.
The Temple sword is currently a Longsword + Trip weapon, So adding the longsword is not problematic.
In fact, adding most any one handed weapons would not be a problem, because they tend to have smaller damage dice than a temple sword.
The issue starts once you get to Exotic and Two handed weapons, because they have large Damage Dice in addition to high crit ratings.
But honestly, I'm not 100% sure how that breaks things. You already cannot add 1.5 STR when Flurrying, so it might actually peter out in terms of damage.
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So your stance is that if the current rule set verges on broken, adding more options (and thus more powerful combinations) won't break it?The first post I responded sounded as through the Temple Sword Issue was already broken, not verge on broken.
The Temple sword is currently a Longsword + Trip weapon, So adding the longsword is not problematic.
In fact, adding most any one handed weapons would not be a problem, because they tend to have smaller damage dice than a temple sword.
The issue starts once you get to Exotic and Two handed weapons, because they have large Damage Dice in addition to high crit ratings.
But honestly, I'm not 100% sure how that breaks things. You already cannot add 1.5 STR when Flurrying, so it might actually peter out in terms of damage.
a scimitar is one handed and has that 18-20 crit range. keen its 15-20. while flurry cant get str+1/2, it DOES get the 2-handed str on power attack damage if you 2 hand it.
that doesn't need to be a monk weapon
So your stance is that if the current rule set verges on broken, adding more options (and thus more powerful combinations) won't break it?The first post I responded sounded as through the Temple Sword Issue was already broken, not verge on broken.
The Temple sword is currently a Longsword + Trip weapon, So adding the longsword is not problematic.
In fact, adding most any one handed weapons would not be a problem, because they tend to have smaller damage dice than a temple sword.
The issue starts once you get to Exotic and Two handed weapons, because they have large Damage Dice in addition to high crit ratings.
But honestly, I'm not 100% sure how that breaks things. You already cannot add 1.5 STR when Flurrying, so it might actually peter out in terms of damage.
a scimitar is one handed and has that 18-20 crit range. keen its 15-20. while flurry cant get str+1/2, it DOES get the 2-handed str on power attack damage if you 2 hand it.
that doesn't need to be a monk weapon
Agreed. A single feat for what is effectively doubling your crit range on a Temple Sword is completely OP.
Wait...
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a scimitar is one handed and has that 18-20 crit range. keen its 15-20. while flurry cant get str+1/2, it DOES get the 2-handed str on power attack damage if you 2 hand it.that doesn't need to be a monk weapon
So, I do not see the big deal here. you are still stuck as a monk which means you still have mad and as a pseudo full bab class, you are going to be way behind other melee characters on your hit chance and damage and when you can't flurry, you are going to be even further behind real full bab characters.
And atleast a unarmed strike monk can benefit from strong jaw or a multitude of other buffs that affect both natural and melee weapons.
Flurry is functionally full bab twf.
I'm personally on the fence since it would require either two feats or a level dip (need proficiency and the feat)
Flurry is functionally full bab twf.I'm personally on the fence since it would require either two feats or a level dip (need proficiency and the feat)
If you're allowed to use traits, it would be one feat (the one that allows Weapon use) and one trait (Heirloom Weapon) or be Half Elf with Ancestral Arms.
Scimitar is d6 as opposed to d8 from Temple Sword, and Power Attack does trade off accuracy, which if not properly calibrated for, results in only marginal improvements over normal attacks.
But again, there needs to be some math incrementation before things get finalized.
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Non-high crit levels to me fit the theme of the monk. They are lawful and the low crit base damage and high BAB when using monk abilities shows a monks attitude about compact and how to fight. A chaotic monk archetype I can see having a higher threat range at the cost of ac or attack.
A bigger question would be if there was a feat to replace the damage of a melee weapon with the monk’s unarmed damage.
A lot of Ultimate Combat references "vast array of martial arts" and "Asian weapons" so the answer to you main question at hand could be answered later this month in Ultimate Combat.
If you can get a copy of it, the Black Company campaign book has a class called the Weapon Master, that is essentialy a monk that uses a non-monk weapon. They can flurry, but it must be a weapon they have the weapon focus feat for, and even if it's two handed, they dont get 1/2 again STR on the damage.
For 3.5 it's not bad, and Owen K. Stephens' name is on the book...
There's the 'Pole Fighter' feat from Paizo's Dragon magazine compendium that lets a monk choose one pole arm as a special monk weapon. I'm sure there's some high damage/ high crit range/ high crit multiplier pole arm that will suit the player's desires.
Oh, I know about that one, and I am tempted to throw it to the player (via a story-reward if he can pull his monk's head out of his ass long enough to accept humility, but that is a different kettle of fish) along with a weapon like the Bill or some other halberd-like weapon.
I am a little concerned about offering him that, as knowing the player he'll take that other feat that allows a Monk to use Deflect Arrows as often as he wants while using a polearm (but can't catch the missiles due to this)
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Dunno, monk has pretty powerful unarmed strike, especially on higher levels. For god's sake he finishes with 2d10! And he gets what seven attacks, eight if you count haste.. That's 16d10 + bonuses...a horrible amount of damage.No, it's really not, especially at level 20.
It is comparable to a 2h fighter.
He(Greatsword) does 2d6+18(Str)+15(Power attack)+5(Enhancement)+5 (Training), +2(Specialisation) for some nice damage...And he can do that damage 5 times which gives us 10d6+225 (roughly)
Monk hits for 2d10+13(Str)+10(power Attack)+5(Enhancement). He can hit 9 times...which is 18d10+262 damage
Fighter (Maximum) 285
Monk (Maximum) 442
REALLY???
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Should you really be comparing maximums, since those hardly ever happen? Also, Monks get to calculate Power Attack based on their Flurry BAB, not actual BAB.
I know, but they don't mulitply it with 1.5...
Dunno...i can compare averages too...
Fighter: 260
Monk:351
@thepuregamer...my are we polite...
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Is that including the fighter's double Str bonus from Backswing?
He's right tho. You're only looking at theoretical maximums and averages. The Monk will by design have a lower attack bonus, and so will not hit on all attacks. So you can't count his damage as the maximum of all attacks unless you're fighting enemies with 10 AC.
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Okay, I thought you were talking about the Two-Handed archetype.
Give me assurance over potential anyday. I'll take a weapon that does 3d4 damage over 1d20 anyday. Just because you CAN roll 20 points on it doesn't mean anything when you roll a 1. And give me more flat bonuses over variables any day as well. When I roll that 1 on the die, I want a big bonus behind it to make sure my attack does something.
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I've been down this thread before :P
the chance to hit is a HUGE mitigating factor for the monk.
I've got a spreadsheet with numbers from an optimized fighter and monk, which I spent a few weeks working on. The fighter is ahead on average damage at every level but two with no magical gear.
With only magical weapons, an arms race if you will, the monk comes out ahead in average damage.
But when you represent a balanced cost analysis--magical weapons, armor, tomes, wondrous items, the fighter comes out ahead in 14 of 20 levels.
While the monk has a greater potential for higher damage, it also has a greater potential for lower damage as well. 2d10 can deal 20 damage... or 2.
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Can't seem to find one anywhere, but then again I don't have every single manual Paizo makes. Seems to be some of the Archetype Monks' special abilities rely upon causing critical hits, and with the exception of the Temple Sword, every Monk weapon has craptastic criticals.
By RAW, there really isn't anything for it. In my games in order to bring monks a little more on par with other classes in damage output terms, I reimagined Flurry...slightly.
At 8th Level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
At 15th Level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with a flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike, a special monk weapon, or a melee weapon for which he has the Weapon Focus feat as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
When a monk uses a weapon as part of a flurry of blows, he uses the damage dice of the weapon or his unarmed damage, whichever is higher.
I never saw the logic in being able to do higher damage with fists or body parts and then to do less damage with a weapon (melee weapon at least), which by definition is a tool, a lever to increase lethality.
I also expanded the weapon proficiency list as follows, which suits my game more.
These of course are just suggestions and may or may not work for your game. I hope it helps. :)
I've cooked up a few feats here just for this purpose. I don't think they are broken at all because: a) You're taking 2 feats for any relevance (no automatic proficiency. b) having weapon variety is not that broken. I'm looking for feedback, so let me know.
Feat: Monk’s mastery, simple
Prerequisite: Flurry of Blows Class Feature
Benefit: You may use your flurry of blows ability while attacking with any simple melee weapon. This feat does not provide you with proficiency in those weapons, but it allows you to use them in a flurry.
Normal: You may only flurry with a select list of weapons, which you are proficient with.
Feat: Monk’s mastery, martial
Prerequisites: Flurry of Blows Class Feature, monk level 5
Benefit: You may now flurry with any Martial weapon in your posession. This feat otherwise functions exactly like Monk’s mastery, simple.
Monk’s mastery, exotic
Prerequisites: Flurry of Blows Class Features, monk level 7
Benefit: You may now flurry with any Exotic weapon in your posession. This feat otherwise functions exactly like Monk’s mastery, simple.
On the other hand, as has been mentioned, giving a Monk access to a weapon like a Kukri or, Gods forbid, an Elven Curve Blade, and then being able to flurry with that, would simply open the door to a nightmare.
Would it really be a nightmare to give a monk the ability to flurry with a kukri? Because I have already done that as a variant feat.
I have a gnome ranger monk. My ranger multiclassing to monk fit the circumstances in the game and I created an amusing backtory for it. The character ended up underpowered, so the DM and I invented some variants based on his backstory:
Abu's ranger combat style has been switched over to "monk" style. This means that at sixth level ranger, he will get to pick from the list of sixth level monk bonus feats for his ranger combat style feat. We replaced his redundant Two-Weapon Fighting feat with a feat that lets him use any light or monk weapon during Flurry of Blows. Yes, those changes are trivial, but we are trying to be fair. The goal is to create a combat style and alternative features compatible with monk limitations, such as no armor, or reducing monk limitations, such as only monk weapons, in non-abusive ways.
Yet this thread suggests that the variant is abusive. What is it about a Kukri (1d4 slashing, crit 18–20/×2) that makes it dangerously more powerful than a Kama (1d6 slashing, crit ×2, monk, trip) or Cestus (1d4 B or P, crit 19–20/×2, monk) during a Flurry of Blows? Is this because of the critical feats or because of some other abuse?
The gnome ranger monk is on hiatus right now, because I have taken over as the DM of that game. Thus, I can correct the variant before he returns in any cameo appearances, if I understand what is wrong with it.
Seems to be some of the Archetype Monks' special abilities rely upon causing critical hits, and with the exception of the Temple Sword, every Monk weapon has craptastic criticals.
I have a Hungry Ghost monk in my game, who even with a temple sword never runs out of ki. Which means he gets an extra attack or +4 to his AC on almost every single round, and he can ignore the downside to a vicious weapon because he heals for that small amount of damage on a regular basis. If he could spend a feat to increase his threat range by 2 (dropping to 18, then keen or imp crit), he'd do it in a heartbeat, and then he'd never even have to keep track any more...
I checked through all the Monk archetypes and only the Hungry Ghost Monk cares about critical hits. Is the Hungry Ghost the sole problem with letting a monk flurry with a non-monk weapon? If so, I can relax, because my gnome ranger monk is not a Hungry Ghost Monk.
I'm also curious why it is specified that the monk never runs out of ki even with a temple sword; is there some quality of the temple sword which should cause a monk to use up ki faster?
I'm also curious why it is specified that the monk never runs out of ki even with a temple sword; is there some quality of the temple sword which should cause a monk to use up ki faster?
Just the opposite. The Temple Sword has a quality that lets the monk never run out of ki.
Bobson was specifically referring to a Hungry Ghost Monk with the Steal Ki ability:
Steal Ki (Ex): At 5th level, a hungry ghost monk can steal ki from other creatures, though this ability is controversial in some circles of monks, who see it as nothing less than a form of vampirism. If the monk scores a confirmed critical hit against a living enemy or reduces a living enemy to 0 or fewer hit points, he can steal some of that creature's ki. This ability replenishes 1 spent ki point to the monk's ki pool, as long as the monk has at least 1 ki point in his pool. He cannot exceed his ki pool's maximum. At 11th level,...
Imagine a 8th level Hungry Ghost Monk using a Temple Sword. Ordinary the sword crits on 19-20, but this monk purchased a Keen Temple Sword costing 8000 gold pieces that crits on 17-20, 20% of all attacks. He ordinarily gets four attacks during a Flurry of Blows at +6/+6/+1/+1, and he spends a ki point to get a fifth attack at +6. At five attacks per run, the monk on average rolls one attack per round in the 17-20 range. If he always confirms the critical hit, he gains one ki point per turn, the same amount he is spending. He never runs out of ki. And at 11th level, he gains another attack and starts recharging ki faster than he uses it.
I had to read Bobson's comment twice to realize that is what he meant.
This monk would want to confirm his critical hits as often as possible. He would prefer to attack the weak minions rather than the Big Bad Evil Guy. This character might get a reputation as a coward or a bully.
All monk weapons except for the Cestus and the Temple Sword crit only on a nat 20. The Cestus and Temple Sword crit on 19-20.
For this thread, now suppose that the Hungry Ghost Monk could use a weapon with a crit range of 18-20, such as a kukri, and improve it to 15-20 with a Keen enchantment. 30% of his attacks are in the critical range. That percentage is more than 25%, so he recharge his ki faster than he uses it even if he can ordinarily make only three attacks per round with a Flurry of Blows. That is at 6th level.
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I checked through all the Monk archetypes and only the Hungry Ghost Monk cares about critical hits. Is the Hungry Ghost the sole problem with letting a monk flurry with a non-monk weapon? If so, I can relax, because my gnome ranger monk is not a Hungry Ghost Monk.
The problem is not just the hungry ghost monk, it's overall equipment balance, especially in the mid-game levels. When the monk flurries, he can use a single weapon to do all his attacks. A normal 2 weapon fighter has to enchant two weapons, while the monk only has to pay for one. To make up for this advantage, the monk is limited to lower damage and crit weapons for the most part.
Similarly (without doing the math) this is the same reason the amulet of mighty fists is so blasted expensive. When the monk is in the 1D10 or more unarmed strike damage range, that starts to be preferrable to almost any weapon she can use. The high cost keeps weapons competitive.As usual, it's a case of "if you want to allow it, go ahead and make up a feat." Also as usual, it seems to me to be a case of "I want the abilities of class x, but I want her to do damage iust like a strength based fighter." I won't tell anyone how they should want to play, but Paizo seems to be making an effort to keep classes somewhat distinct. (See: Why is there no feat that lets you use Dex for Damage instead of Strength?)