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I've been watching, off and on, the threads, debates, and complaints about the questionable viability of builds that max out Dex as the primary melee ability score instead of Strength. Without a feat that allows one to add a non-Strength ability to damage, obviously the 'DPR' of such Dex-focused melee builds isn't going to match those of Barbarians and Fighters with absurd Strength scores.
I've been out of the loop though. I wanted to ask the forums: What is the current state of Weapon Finesse builds? Aside from the Dervish Dance Magus (I'm afraid to play one until I see an official ruling stating that Spell Combat and Dervish Dance are compatible) are there any combinations of feats, equipment, and classes that can allow a Dex based character to have *acceptable* damage output and enough advantages from high Dex to make the drop in 'DPR' an acceptable price to pay for the benefits of high Dex?
Yes, I know if there's a Finesse-booster in UC, that could change everything, but we're not there quite yet.
I was hoping maybe we could collect all of the Wisdom and advice for Finesse characters in one thread. I've seen half-completed ideas and briefly mentioned build suggestions all over the place, never consolidated.
(Maybe I should write a Treantmonk style 'guide to Weapon Finesse'...)
Thanks in advance to all that reply.
I do want to see Finesse viable, but it runs the risk of turning Dex into a god stat. I remember there was a route in Star Wars d20, a PrC that let you add your dex to dmg, 1.5 times if you 2H the lightsaber. It just obviated strength completely. I played a finesse iaijutsu master in OA/L5RD20 and it was amazing.
I guess people will still need 13 for Power Attack but that's cheap enough really. 3 char gen points.
Right now though it boils down to Dervish Dance, which is a pretty phenomenal feat even if it only applies to a single weapon. If its allowed in your game, take it. I always like playing finesse fighters more than brutes.
Except for Rogues, "finesse" combat is fighting the game defensively - even archers need good Strength. Defensive fighting is not a good way to contribute to the game.
And I agree with meatrace, making one stat all you need is just as bad as making a class need 4 stats to be viable. Ever play Ragnarok Online? Dex controlled attack speed, ability to dodge, and accuracy & damage for bows. Guess which class only needed exactly one stat to solo bosses.
Maybe adding half-dex to ranged weapon damage couldn't hurt, and full damage for crossbows. We all know they could use it.
Finesse builds are only really viable for rogues as most of their damage comes from sneak attack.
They already need a high dex for TWF and half their skills, so going that route makes some sense.
Yes, you can use 15 dex, get a +4 dex item, and be set for getting Greater TWF as well.
You obviously will do more damage with 18 str, 15 dex and everything into str after that, vs 18 dex and everything into that.
Also you save a feat on Weapon Finesse.
But you lose alot of useful skillpoints, AC, Ref save.
I don't really think its a viable choice for fighters or barbarians or anyone else but rogues, since their damage comes from PA and all that stuff, and high strength helps alot more for them than for rogues.
For rogues it's a choice what you want I guess. Few points more damage per hit, or those other things.
But using PA as a rogue is not a good idea, the bit damage more you do means you hit alot less with your secondary/tertiery attacks, which means alot of sneak attack gets lost. (PA might be a good idea though if you can't get SA since you don't flank)
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I agree that adding Dex to damage makes it a god stat. The only reason I think Dervish Dance isn't completely broken is that you can't use your off-hand at all.
I'm in favor of a feat or easily dipped class ability/archetype that adds a mental stat to damage, like the 3.5 Swashbuckler does with Int.
No str - high dex builds are more or less useless. They will deal irrelevnt ammounts of damage compared to their str counterparts. Even rogues will not do that well completely sacrificing str, as the static bonuses are just too important.
On the other hand, moderate strength, high dex builds will be dealing less damage but have more manueverability and be better at range. This will make good switch hitters, with a 18+dex and 14 str. If weapon finnesse is getting you more than a +2, it can be worth taking the feat. Note, because of the way max dex works for armors, high dex wont really get you more AC easily, but it will allow you to wear light armor to gain the move speed and ability to tumble.
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I agree that adding Dex to damage makes it a god stat. The only reason I think Dervish Dance isn't completely broken is that you can't use your off-hand at all.
I'm in favor of a feat or easily dipped class ability/archetype that adds a mental stat to damage, like the 3.5 Swashbuckler does with Int.
Yeah which is something magus' are just fine with... It annoys me slightly that they can essentially TWF (with a spell albeit) with dervish dance. Am I incorrect on this?
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Although you will never be putting out the damage a str build will, Free Hand fighters or weapon masters who go into duelist and use piranha strike can be effective. Even without strength, the singleton and weapon training abilities will add to your damage (weapon masters even get to use gloves of dueling). You also can get weapon specialization to help offset your low damage at lower levels. As you go further into duelist the precise strike class feature can really add up.
Other than this the only way to make finesse builds viable is either dervish dance or classes that get to "unload their dice" with a successful hit AKA Magus or Rogue.
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Would a Rapier qualify for Piranha Strike?
Technically its not a light weapon, but qualifies for Weapon Finesse.
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Yeah which is something magus' are just fine with... It annoys me slightly that they can essentially TWF (with a spell albeit) with dervish dance. Am I incorrect on this?I agree that adding Dex to damage makes it a god stat. The only reason I think Dervish Dance isn't completely broken is that you can't use your off-hand at all.
I'm in favor of a feat or easily dipped class ability/archetype that adds a mental stat to damage, like the 3.5 Swashbuckler does with Int.
I'd really love to see an official ruling one way or the other on that one.
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Even some finesse fighters can take PA - 13 Strength is not that much of a stretch for someone who is going to be involved in melee combat. Also, as of PF Core, PA works on pretty much any melee weapon.
However, over the course of a character's career, one ability score is going to outstrip the others - with 3-5 level up points and up to a +6 Belt going onto either Str or Dex. At 10th level, assuming 2 level up points and a +4 item, that's roughly 4.5 points of difference (assuming 3 points of damage on the main hand and a extra 1-2 damage from either off hand or two-handed combat) and we're not even taking into account that Str fighters will set their starting Str way higher than Finesse fighters will, widening the damage-per-hand gap by another 2-4 points. It adds up.
Though it also depends on the class. Fighters get a large quantity of their damage from non-ability score sources, mostly PA, Weapon Spec., and Weapon Training, making it possible for anyone without a Str penalty to deal acceptable damage. Add that to Armor Training and heavy armor made out of Mithral and you can have a finesse Fighter with a really fantastic non-shielded AC who lags a proportionally small amount of damage behind the guy with the greataxe that gets hit on every attack roll made against him. Some other classes, though, rely on maxing out Str and hitting for massive damage using just PA and Str bonus. The only escape I see for those classes is the good 'ol curve blade, allowing some of the really fantastic THF perks (like 3/1 PA bonus and Furious Focus, Pushing Attack, etc.) to come online for a finesse character.
On the Duelist subject - Does the Max Dex limit on armor restrict the sum total of Int + Dex, or is the Int bonus not figured in to Max Dex armor limits for Duelists?
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Unfortunately it is affected by max dex so once you get a belt and headband you'll most likely be resorting to bracers of armor instead.
That's what I was afraid of. It results in an AC not much better than just weighing yourself down in armor. The net benefit, I suppose, is the lack of armor check penalty and keeping a 30ft movement rate.
A solution would be a feat that requires finesse that allows you to add your Int bonus to damage with a finesse-able weapon. Then we don't need to worry about dex becoming a single god-like stat, but it allows for someone to make a viable combatant who doesn't rely on brute force.
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dex to ac is not as great as one would think since max dex bonuses from armor basically mean that a full plate wearer with 12 dex is going to have a higher ac than a chain shirt wearer with 18 dex. So dex to ac is only a boost when you think about touch ac.
No, the Dex based fighter has far more AC than the Str based one once armor training and mithril strat coming into play.
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A solution would be a feat that requires finesse that allows you to add your Int bonus to damage with a finesse-able weapon. Then we don't need to worry about dex becoming a single god-like stat, but it allows for someone to make a viable combatant who doesn't rely on brute force.
*This* is the feat I want.
I personally would make it look like this:
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Insightful Strike [Combat]
Your attacks make up for a lack of force by always hitting right where it hurts.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Weapon Finesse
You may add your Intelligence bonus instead of your Strength bonus to melee weapon damage rolls on attacks with any weapon that qualifies for use with the Weapon Finesse feat, including weapons that qualify despite size such as Rapiers and Elven Curve Blades. If you possess a Strength penalty, it is still subtracted from your damage rolls.
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There. Worded in such a way that you can use Dex/Int as your primary stats but not dump Str to 6-8 for more points.
My issue with Duelists is that they have lower damage than a Str-based TWF/THF character, but AC that will be roughly equal. The Duelist gets a better reflex save, a couple points better on Initiative, roughly the same AC, and worse damage because s/he is using a single weapon instead of TWF/THF like non-Duelists, even the Dex-based non-Duelists, can.
I do have to question the theorycraft that says defense sucks. *Turtling* sucks as a gameplan, but I've seen high-damage, low-AC/HP characters drop so quickly that their high DPR means jack - the defensive characters survived to deal out more total damage that fight. In addition, boosting stats has some diminishing returns. Eventually, 1 or 2 more points of AC is going to affect your survivability more than 1 or 2 more points of damage. I think the most effective character would be the one that balances offense and defense - DPR focused glass cannons might deal out damage, but they're a burden on the rest of the party when every fight requires a 5 minute break to burn out another CLW stick healing Grognar the THF Barbrian.
But as a few people have pointed out, a 18 Dex guy in a chain shirt and a 12 Dex guy in full plate are just as safe. One thing that I like about PF is that Armor Training makes it so that the 18 Dex guy in Mithral Full Plate is better defended than the 12 Dex guy in Mithral Full Plate.
But that's just for Fighters.
A solution would be a feat that requires finesse that allows you to add your Int bonus to damage with a finesse-able weapon. Then we don't need to worry about dex becoming a single god-like stat, but it allows for someone to make a viable combatant who doesn't rely on brute force.*This* is the feat I want.
I personally would make it look like this:
___________________________
Insightful Strike [Combat]
Your attacks make up for a lack of force by always hitting right where it hurts.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Weapon Finesse
You may add your Intelligence bonus instead of your Strength bonus to melee weapon damage rolls on attacks with any weapon that qualifies for use with the Weapon Finesse feat, including weapons that qualify despite size such as Rapiers and Elven Curve Blades. If you possess a Strength penalty, it is still subtracted from your damage rolls.
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There. Worded in such a way that you can use Dex/Int as your primary stats but not dump Str to 6-8 for more points.
My issue with Duelists is that they have lower damage than a Str-based TWF/THF character, but AC that will be roughly equal. The Duelist gets a better reflex save, a couple points better on Initiative, roughly the same AC, and worse damage because s/he is using a single weapon instead of TWF/THF like non-Duelists, even the Dex-based non-Duelists, can.
Magus-y Goodness!
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If you really wanted to get a lot of AC without wearing armor the duelist could do it. Here is a sample level 11 stat block using the avg WPL to buy the gear.
FINESSE FIGHTER CR 10
Male Human Duelist 5 Fighter (Free Hand Fighter) 6
NG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +9; Senses Perception +15
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DEFENSE
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AC 30, touch 25, flat-footed 17. . (+3 armor, +10 Dex, +2 natural, +2 deflection, +3 dodge)
hp 92 (11d10+22)
Fort +12, Ref +17, Will +10
Defensive Abilities Canny Defense +3, Parry
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee +3 Rapier +23/+18/+13 (1d6+11/15-20/x2)
Special Attacks Precise Strike, Riposte, Singleton +1
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STATISTICS
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Str 10, Dex 20/24, Con 14, Int 14/16, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +11; CMB +11 (+17 Disarming); CMD 36 (46 vs. Disarm42 vs. Grapple)
Feats Combat Expertise +/-3, Combat Reflexes (8 AoO/round), Dodge, Greater Disarm, Improved Critical: Rapier, Improved Disarm, Iron Will, Mobility, Piranha Strike -3/+6, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Rapier, Weapon Specialization: Rapier
Skills Acrobatics +21, Bluff +13, Escape Artist +15, Knowledge: Dungeoneering +11, Knowledge: Local +14, Perception +15, Perform: Comedy +13, Sense Motive +15
Languages Common
SQ Deceptive Strike +2 (Ex), Elusive +2 (Ex), Enhanced Mobility (Ex), Ring of Force Shield
Combat Gear +3 Rapier; Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +2, Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +4, Bracers of Armor, +3, Cloak of Resistance, +3, Headband of Vast Intelligence, +2: Knowledge: Local, Ring of Force Shield, Ring of Protection, +2
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Canny Defense +3 (Ex) +INT bonus to AC (max Duelist level).
Combat Expertise +/-3 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Combat Reflexes (8 AoO/round) You may make up to 8 attacks of apportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Deceptive Strike +2 (Ex) +2 to Disarm CMB/CMD, Bluff checks to feint or create a diversion to hide.
Elusive +2 (Ex) +2 Dodge AC
Enhanced Mobility (Ex) +4 AC vs attacks of opportunity while moving out of a square.
Greater Disarm +2 to disarm, weapon lands 15' away.
Improved Disarm Disarm at +2, without an attack of opportunity.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Parry (Ex) Forego an attack to defend against enemy attacks.
Piranha Strike -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage with light weapons.
Precise Strike (Ex) Extra damage when using light / 1-handed Piercing weapons.
Ring of Force Shield An iron band, this simple ring generates a shield-sized (and shield-shaped) wall of force that stays with the ring and can be wielded by the wearer as if it were a heavy shield (+2 AC). This special creation has no armor check penalty or arcane spell failure chance since it is weightless and encumbrance-free. It can be activated and deactivated at will as a free action.
Moderate evocation; CL 9th; Forge Ring, wall of force; Price 8,500 gp.
Riposte (Ex) AoO when you parry.
Singleton +1 (Ex) +1 to hit and damage when weilding a one-handed melee weapon.
Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
If the duelist activates his ring, fights defensively and combat expertises he will have an AC of 38 and a CMD of 39.
Alternatively you could ignore the ring of force shield and go for a ring of blinking and add ghost touch to your weapon.
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Something funny occurs to me though. Historically, plate-wearing fighters with huge swords was actually the best way to be right up until guns and increased incidence of naval combat made wearing heavy armor suicidal. Now we have gunslingers and a Pirate-themed AP.
Jaryn: Awesome build! Hope you don't mind if I use it... ( :
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IMO the best finesse builds have something else going that adds to damage, such as Power Attack, Inspire Courage or Smite (and naturally using an 18-20 crit weapon with an eye toward Improved Critical).
E.g.,
Halfling Oath of Vengeance Paladin (this is a variant of my rogue/pally with a straight up combat emphasis).
STR-12 or 13*
DEX+17
CON:14
INT:12 or 10*
WIS:07
CHA+16
01 pala1 Weapon Finesse
02 pala2 divine grace
03 pala3 Power Attack*
04 pala4 DEX>18, (acquires ability to convert 2xLoH to extra Smite)
05 pala5 Weapon Bond +1, Furious Focus
06 pala6
07 pala7 Pushing Assault or Weapon Focus (rapier)
08 figh1 STR>14* or CHA>17, Improved Critical (rapier)
09 pala8 Weapon Bond +2, Critical Focus or FEAT
10 ...etc
(* Lower starting STR means Power Attack unavailable prior to belt unless potions of enlarge person or other buffing.)
Party role: slayer of evil; high-AC tank versus anything else.
While I think general dex to damage from a feat might make dex a touch too good I am not sure it would become a god stat.
If you got dex to ac, reflex save, initiative, and damage, dex would obviously be better than str but...
dex to ac is not as great as one would think since max dex bonuses from armor basically mean that a full plate wearer with 12 dex is going to have a higher ac than a chain shirt wearer with 18 dex. So dex to ac is only a boost when you think about touch ac.
dex to reflex save is nice, but reflex is the least important save considering failing reflex saves normally just mean you take damage and passing a reflex save normally just means you take half damage unless you have evasion.
Dex to initiative is big.
If you also got full dex to damage, I do not think dex would be a god stat.
As someone else has said, I could see value in a class feature or a feat that allowed you to get 1/2 your dex mod to damage with weapons(instead of getting str mod to damage). I think that would make finesse builds actually competitive without turning dex into the must have stat.
I generally agree with this assessment.
If Weapon Finesse granted DEX to damage, stacking DEX and taking Weapon Finesse would STILL be worse than stacking STR and taking Power Attack. You would STILL have to spend more stat points and take one extra feat to be equal.
I'll be okay with a Dex to damage feat/class feature when there's the equivalent that lets you use Str for AC/Reflex/Initiative/Ranged Attacks.
Let's compare some builds. Assume they are the same class and have the same weapons and abilities.
Level 1 Finesse Build
18 DEX, 13 STR, Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, Leather Armor:
16 AC
+4 Reflex
+4 Initiative
+3 Hit
+3 Damage
Level 1 STR Build
18 STR, 13 DEX, Power Attack, Improved Initiative (for the sake of similar comparison), Chainmail:
17 AC
+1 Reflex
+5 Initiative
+3 Hit
+6 Damage
Which is better, +1 AC, +1 Initiative and +3 Damage, or +3 Reflex? Obviously the STR build is better.
Level 1 Hypothetical Finesse Build (DEX to damage)
18 DEX, 13 STR, Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, Leather Armor:
16 AC
+4 Reflex
+4 Initiative
+3 Hit
+6 Damage
Compared to the STR build, this one has -1 AC, -1 Initiative, +3 Reflex. Looks pretty even to me now.
My only concern with finesse builds is that if you want them to be good at combat maneuvers---and there's a good argument that someone like, say, an agile rapier-wielding duelist should be good at stuff like disarming or even dirty tricks---they need Agile Maneuvers to get the most out of that. And then they also need Weapon Finesse if they want the most out of regular melee attacks. And THEN of course they need Combat Expertise and then FINALLY the Improved Whatever feat they were aiming their build for.
Which unless you are a human fighter, it's going to take awhile to actually build that. And I don't think it should take, say, a half-elven bard with a rapier to have to get to level 7 to finally be able to disarm people as a proper duelist ought. That could of course just be me.
I don't think you should worry about finesse builds dealing the most damage, but they should be able to deal precision damage of various kinds and be able to be maneuverable and do cool tricks on the battlefield that you'd expect to see an agile warrior be able to do. While there should be SOME feats to reflect this, the feat "tax" is a little high IMO to get there---though in all fairness it is doable and doable effectively... eventually.
My only concern with finesse builds is that if you want them to be good at combat maneuvers---and there's a good argument that someone like, say, an agile rapier-wielding duelist should be good at stuff like disarming or even dirty tricks---they need Agile Maneuvers to get the most out of that. And then they also need Weapon Finesse if they want the most out of regular melee attacks. And THEN of course they need Combat Expertise and then FINALLY the Improved Whatever feat they were aiming their build for.
+1000
To have to take 3 feats and STILL be sub-par just proves how broken DEX is.
Pretend you're making a fighter, and after you allocate your 16-18 STR you realize you have to take "Weapon Force," "Ham-Handed Maneuvers" and "Fighter Smash" to get the job ALMOST done. How balanced would that feel?
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My only concern with finesse builds is that if you want them to be good at combat maneuvers---and there's a good argument that someone like, say, an agile rapier-wielding duelist should be good at stuff like disarming or even dirty tricks---they need Agile Maneuvers to get the most out of that. And then they also need Weapon Finesse if they want the most out of regular melee attacks. And THEN of course they need Combat Expertise and then FINALLY the Improved Whatever feat they were aiming their build for.+1000
To have to take 3 feats and STILL be sub-par just proves how broken DEX is.
Pretend you're making a fighter, and after you allocate your 16-18 STR you realize you have to take "Weapon Force," "Ham-Handed Maneuvers" and "Fighter Smash" to get the job ALMOST done. How balanced would that feel?
If strength also did all the stuff dex did I'd say that's about right.
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Level 1 Finesse Build
18 DEX, 13 STR, Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, Leather Armor:16 AC
+4 Reflex
+4 Initiative
+3 Hit
+3 DamageLevel 1 STR Build
18 STR, 13 DEX, Power Attack, Improved Initiative (for the sake of similar comparison), Chainmail:17 AC
+1 Reflex
+5 Initiative
+3 Hit
+6 Damage
This seems like a really flawed comparison. Why is the finesse character in leather instead of chain/hide shirt? Also, you fail to mention that the strength based character is down movement speed. I'll fix it for you.
Level 1 Finesse Build
18 DEX, 13 STR, Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, Chain Shirt:
18 AC
+4 Reflex
+4 Initiative
+3 Hit
+3 Damage
Level 1 STR Build
18 STR, 13 DEX, Power Attack, Improved Initiative (for the sake of similar comparison), Chainmail:
17 AC
+1 Reflex
+5 Initiative
+3 Hit
+6 Damage
-10 speed
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To have to take 3 feats and STILL be sub-par just proves how broken DEX is.
Your comparisons also fail to take into account how things change as the characters go up in level. How about at level 11?
Level 11 Finesse Build
22 DEX, 13 STR, Belt of DEX +4, Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, Mithril Fullplate:
26 AC
+7 Reflex
+7 Initiative
+4 Hit
+7 Damage
Level 11 STR Build
22 STR, 13 DEX, Belt of STR +4, Power Attack, Improved Initiative (for the sake of similar comparison), +2 Plate, +1 Ring, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor:
24 AC
+1 Reflex
+5 Initiative
+4 Hit
+12 Damage
(The dex based character spent a little more.)
What about when the characters get a little higher level and they have more gold to work with?
Level ?? Finesse Build
+3 Armor 9k
+2 Ring 8k
+2 Amulet 2k
33 AC
Level ?? STR Build
+4 Armor (from +2) 11k
+2 Ring (from +1) 6k
+2 Amulet (from +1) 6k
28 AC
(This time the strength based character spent a bit more.)
At that point the characters have gained maybe another 2 points in their respective stats. So what's better?
+7 Reflex, +3 Init, +5 AC, or +6 damage?
And yet you want more support for Dex?
Incidentally, there were lots of options to add dexterity to damage in 3.5, and guess what? The number of strength builds still drastically outnumbered them. Dexterity did not become a "god stat."
People freak out way, way too easily over stuff like this.
There's sorta a way to do a finesse fighter with decent damage, actually...the guided weapon property. It's a +1 property that lets you use wisdom for attack and damage instead of strength (always 1x wisdom, never x1.5 or x0.5 depending on how you wield it). So if your dex and wis are both higher than str, that can work.
Level 11 Finesse Build
22 DEX, 13 STR, Belt of DEX +4, Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, Mithril Fullplate:26 AC
+7 Reflex
+7 Initiative
+4 Hit
+7 Damage
How are you calculating 26 AC anyways? Armour gives 9 + 3 dex mod = 12 from armour and dodge, so 10 + 12 = 22 AC. And the dice damage would also make the str do +1 more damage. You also have a difference of 5 to combat maneuvers unless you take a feat tax.
Though, to be honest, at level 11 both those damage looks pretty bad as a CR 11 monster has an average of 145 Hit Points.
I believe the advantage of STR is that is can reach a much higher damage than DEX to be relevant in battle.
Compare a two handed str build to a two handed dex build, for instance.
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How are you calculating 26 AC anyways? Armour gives 9 + 3 dex mod = 12 from armour and dodge, so 10 + 12 = 22 AC.
The guy that originally started these comparisons used fighters so I expanded on them as fighters. Armor Training III at level 11 raises max dex by 3. So the dex fighter gets 10 from armor and 6 from dex.
And the dice damage would also make the str do +1 more damage.
What dice damage? For purposes of this comparison both characters are using similar weapons. Rapier perhaps? I'm just expanding on what Hudax started.
You also have a difference of 5 to combat maneuvers unless you take a feat tax.
Fair enough. In that case the Dex based character takes Agile Maneuvers instantly equalizing that difference the Str based character takes Lighting Reflexes.
Though, to be honest, at level 11 both those damage looks pretty bad as a CR 11 monster has an average of 145 Hit Points.
Well like I mentioned earlier. Neither of these characters are real characters. They haven't spent any money on enchanting their weapons, they don't factor in Weapon Training, etc.
I believe the advantage of STR is that is can reach a much higher damage than DEX to be relevant in battle.
Compare a two handed str build to a two handed dex build, for instance.
Sure, and the DEX character gets the have much higher AC, Reflex saves, Init, and ranged attack capability. If there's going to be support for Dexterity to damage I'd like to see some support for Strength to AC, Reflex, and Initiative.
I'm mentioning the Dice difference because they already have different equipment. Just like your dex fighter is wouldn't logically be wearing +2 Full Plate, the Str fighter won't be wielding a rapier.
Also, now you're using a build which specifically favors Dex based characters. We can do that for STR too, with the aforementioned two handed builds, both using the Two-Handed Fighter Variant.
Level 11:
Str based 2 Handed would use a generic Great Sword.
Dex based 2 Handed would use a Elven Curve Blade since that's the only two handed Dex based core weapon available.
Dex Feat Tax: Weapon Finesse, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Elven Curve Blade.
Right off the bat, you need 2 feats for this build. We'll ignore agile maneuvers for now, as that's not necessary at all for this build to function as a damage dealer.
According to the class features, you gain double STR damage on when making single attacks, and double STR damage on all attacks after the first on full attacks. Therefore, Dex would get +10 to damage while Str would get +18 normally and +21 on those common occurrences. In a full attack, if everything hits, we get a difference of 22 damage.
The elven curve blade would be doing 1d10 while the great sword does 2d6 damage, so that's a difference of 1.5 damage per swing. So taking that into account, if all three attacks hit, you get a difference of 26.5 damage.
As for armour, since you don't have armour training anymore, you'll have a +2 Leather Armour on the Dex build and a +2 Full Plate on the Str build. That's a difference of 2 AC in favor of the Str build.
To make use of the level 11 ability, Piledriver (free combat maneuver on single hits), he'll have to take Agile Maneuvers, making a third feat tax.
So the Dex based fighter would get +5 init, +5 reflex, better Touch AC over the Str fighter.
The Str based fighter would get +11 more damage (on single attacks), +2 AC, better Flat Footed AC, and 3 extra feats to play around with. (or 2 if the Dex based fighter doesn't care about Piledriver)
Now for ranged attack, the Str based would have -5 to attack, +5 to damage compared to the Dex based build.
I realize this isn't a fair comparison for the Dex character, but neither was yours for the Str character.
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The question "which is better?" is inherently not the right question. Instead the question should be "which is better in situation x." Pathfinder and its ancestors have evolved towards a paper-rock-scissors kind of game, where one stat is not the be all and end all. This is one of the features of Pathfinder that makes it a huge buffet of choices rather than a prison lunch line where everyone gets the same thing on their tray with absolutely no choice other than to not eat and get weaker. As you can tell, I like this. If Dex suddenly became comparable to strength for damage and combat maneuvers for a similar number of feats, strength would drastically depreciate in value.
Dexterity = survivability (which improves damage in a long fight), Strength = damage (which improves survivability by shortening fights). So the fact is that by design strength builds will do more damage in melee. Dexterity builds will take less damage.
Just for fun, flip it on its head. Some posters here want a feat that lets dex builds use dex instead of strength for damage, I say there should be a feat that lets you use your strength for AC bonus instead of dex. Dex would still have the edge in initiative and reflex saves, so that's not unbalanced, right?
My argument is simple - if you take ANY stat and create feats, classes, equipment, etc. that let you use that stat in place of others in more than the most limited situations, you're losing a lot of the complexity that makes this a fun group game and not something you're soloing through. If I have a feat that lets me use my Con score in place of intelligence, my fighter is going to be solving a lot of puzzles that I might have had to turn to the wizard for before. If in turn my wizard has a feat that lets me use my caster level as my BAB, well then we're erasing the differences between classes. There are plenty of game systems that work from a "tabula rasa" where any class can do any thing, based on the choices you make as you level, but Pathfinder is designed to have specializations.
To answer the original poster - in general Dex builds are still pretty much the province of those classes with precision damage and complementary teammates. In most encounters, ending the fight quickly (with lots of damage) is more important than individual survival stats. As previously mentioned the feat tax to increase damage is high so most non-rogue dex builds are either optimized for personal survival over the party or (by choice) are not focusing on combat feats.
In unique situations - If you are in a campaign where you tend to fight extremely tough enemies rather than grouped lower CR enemies, the survivability aspects (AC, Initiative, Reflex Saves, Acrobatics checks) of dex can be a boon.
- Again in high CR encounters, a ranged dex character can put out more damage than a ranged strength character. (Somewhat counterintuitive but when you compare two characters using compound long bows, +1 to hit does more DPR than +1 to damage against high AC.)
- Of course, Dex is far preferred for casters (possible exceptions for oracles, clerics, and wildshaped druids determined to be in the thick of things - OK, let's say it's preferred for arcane casters other than the magus) since they tend to be more squishy to begin with and use ranged touch spells.
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Compare a two handed str build to a two handed dex build, for instance.
There's no reason that, with appropriate weaponry, you cannot two-hand with Weapon Finesse and Power attack.
E.g., Elven Curved Sword in the hands on an elven rogue doesn't require any extra feats.
STR:14 elf
DEX+19
CON-10
INT+14
WIS:12
CHA:07
0. BAB0 traits: Heirloom Weapon, Threatening Defender
1. BAB1 figh1 Weapon Focus:ECS, Combat Expertise
2. BAB1 rogu1 (Rake Variant, Scout variant), SA+1d6, Bravado's Blade
3. BAB2 rogu2 Finesse Rogue, Power Attack
4. BAB3 rogu3 DEX>20, SA+2d6, Rake's Smile
5. BAB4 rogu4 Scout's Charge, Fast Getaway, Furious Focus
6. BAB4 rogu5 SA+3d6
7. BAB5 rogu6 Combat Trick: Improved Feint, Critical Focus
8. BAB6 rogu7 DEX>21, SA+4d6
9. BAB7 rogu8 Skirmisher, Combat Trick: Greater Feint
10 BAB8 figh2 Improved Critical:ECS
11 BAB8 rogu9 SA+5d6, TALENT
12 BAB9 rogu10 DEX>22, Advanced Talent
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Unfortunately it is affected by max dex so once you get a belt and headband you'll most likely be resorting to bracers of armor instead.That's what I was afraid of. It results in an AC not much better than just weighing yourself down in armor. The net benefit, I suppose, is the lack of armor check penalty and keeping a 30ft movement rate.
I would suggest a wand of mage armor instead of bracers. You can buy 21 wands for the price of +4 bracers and are unlikely to ever run out of charges.
Alternately, just get the mithril shirt and let your dexterity bonus to AC class cap out at +6. It's kind of a push though the wand route is still a bit less expensive IMO.
Compare a two handed str build to a two handed dex build, for instance.There's no reason that, with appropriate weaponry, you cannot two-hand with Weapon Finesse and Power attack.
E.g., Elven Curved Sword in the hands on an elven rogue doesn't require any extra feats.
STR:14 elf
DEX+19
CON-10
INT+14
WIS:12
CHA:070. BAB0 traits: Heirloom Weapon, Threatening Defender
1. BAB1 figh1 Weapon Focus:ECS, Combat Expertise
2. BAB1 rogu1 (Rake Variant, Scout variant), SA+1d6, Bravado's Blade
3. BAB2 rogu2 Finesse Rogue, Power Attack
4. BAB3 rogu3 DEX>20, SA+2d6, Rake's Smile
5. BAB4 rogu4 Scout's Charge, Fast Getaway, Furious Focus
6. BAB4 rogu5 SA+3d6
7. BAB5 rogu6 Combat Trick: Improved Feint, Critical Focus
8. BAB6 rogu7 DEX>21, SA+4d6
9. BAB7 rogu8 Skirmisher, Combat Trick: Greater Feint
10 BAB8 figh2 Improved Critical:ECS
11 BAB8 rogu9 SA+5d6, TALENT
12 BAB9 rogu10 DEX>22, Advanced Talent
Just like to point out a slight error. You can only take Combat Trick once unless you have Swashbuckler as one of your variants (which you can, because I'm not sure what having Rake does for your build, unless you're going for shatter defenses of course). Correct me if I'm missing anything about your build.
Interesting build that guarantees a sneak attack every time as long as there's no concealment!
So I'm guessing the average damage is 1d10+3+9+5d6 = 35 damage.
Now lets create this hypothetical feat that gives Dex instead of Str for damage. To balance it, you can never go above 1x dex damage(for example, due to 2handing). Lets set this damage as precise damage that does not multiply on a critical hit.
If we allowed this hypothetical feat, your damage would instead do 1d10+6+9+5d6 = 38 damage. On crits, it would do 2d10+6+18+5d6.
Against a creature with any kind of concealment (like say, dim light which grants 20% concealment), it would do 1d10+3+9 = 17.5 damage. To solve this, you need to take the feat Shadow Strike.
A Fighter with the Two-Handed variant would do, with the same weapon and 22 STR, 1d10+12+12+2 = 31.5 damage. Adding in something simple, like weapon spec and weapon spec, greater, you get 35.5 damage. So the rogue build with this hypothetical DEX damage feat would do 3.5 damage more than the fighter on single attacks (but a lot less in dim light unless you take Shadow Strike). Not bad for the STR Fighter considering that he has at least 8 more feats to take.
Hypothetical DEX feat
Precise Striking
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse.
Benefit: You can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. You do not gain 1.5x damage if you two hand a weapon. When using your Dexterity modifier in this way, the damage is considered precision damage and does not multiply on a critical hit.