New grapple flowcharts (Links inside)


Rules Questions


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Hi everybody,
i liked the idea of the grapple flowcharts that can be found in the Pathfinder SRD. Due to many problems that i had with grapple i created my own flowcharts with all informations that i have found on the web.

Take a look a the flowcharts and give me some feedback. I hope you like them :)

Grapple Initiator and Defender

Grapple Controller


Nice, except that it is very difficult to read with the "V0.9 Created by <your email address>" across the whole page.

-- david
Papa.DRB


Papa-DRB wrote:

Nice, except that it is very difficult to read with the "V0.9 Created by <your email address>" across the whole page.

-- david
Papa.DRB

I will delete this mark soon after i got some feedback :)


As above get rid of the annoying watermark. Do not have it linked to your email address. I got tired of it popping up because I clicked on it to bring the window forward. It would make it a hell of lot easier to comment if I could copy and paste here. We are doing you a favor, make it easy on us.

spelling: "standart action"

grammar: questions should end with a ?

What exactly to you mean by "Establish a hold?" This looks like the decision point for grapple normally or use the part of the body used to grab to hold opponent, but the text is unclear.

I would actually list what the grappled condition does.

Blocks should specify "adjacent unoccupied square" not just "open space" and "adjacent square." Be consistent with terminology.

Controller is not a standard game term. The book uses "grappler" or "opponent."

grammar: possessive pronouns should be controller's not controllers.

should read "natural, one-handed, or light weapon."

Should read "action with grappled condition modifiers."

I suppose you are necessarily limited to attempting to cast spells that are merely standard actions, much the same as not limiting you to single attacks.

I don't understand why you think that the defender attacking provokes rake attacks.

You don't need to continue ellipses in second boxes after "Defender may..."

Under tied up, superfluous '.' as in '.Defender'

On the second chart:

You have one box for grab and constrict. What if a creature has both?

grammar: "Defender is tied up."

grammar: "Controller has the grappled condition."

I don't think if you fail to fast tie up that the defender escapes the existing grapple because you already made the check to maintain the grapple this round.

You really don't address what a defender can do while pinned. You have escape the pin but your chart implies that he can still reverse the pin or use one hand.

Liberty's Edge

Eridan wrote:
Papa-DRB wrote:

Nice, except that it is very difficult to read with the "V0.9 Created by <your email address>" across the whole page.

-- david
Papa.DRB

I will delete this mark soon after i got some feedback :)

I'd like to test it to give feed back, but [paradox]


I don't think its a given than you can cast spells in a grapple unless the spell has no somatic component (usually through still spell). There's almost an outright contradiction between the new grapple rules, the grappled condition, and the magic section on whether or not this is possible

Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that requires only one hand to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you- Good to cast

A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.- Good to cast

Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.- WHAM no cat for you.

At least they appeared to have removed the inability for a sorcerer to use still spell in a grapple.


I can understand wanting to mark a beta version clearly so that it doesn't get distributed until it's ready, but the watermark does make it hard to evaluate. Try 50% lighter, and not linked to your email, or the same darkness and just saying "Beta Version" or something shorter.

That being said, here's my feedback on the content:

Initiator:

  • Standard is spelled wrong, and you should position the text so that "(standard action)") is all on a single line.
  • Grab should be specifically called out as "via grab special property" - otherwise it's unclear why everyone can't just take a free action to grab instead of a standard to grapple.
  • It's a bit confusing to have "-4 on CMB" or "-20 on CMB" opposed to Yes or No as exit paths on a flowchart. The arrowing in that section is also weird.
  • I don't like how the "Establish a hold" step is so far away from the "Does attacker establish a hold" step. It's very unclear that the two are related.

Defender:

  • I'm not sure what the box from the "Yes" path from the first node is supposed to be.
  • Why does the controller having rake attacks have any effect on the defender's making attacks?

Controller:

  • The footnotes are confusing. I'd try to fold them into the boxes somehow. You can split the greater grapple into a fourth option: "... attempt to maintain the grapple with the Greater Grapple feat (move)".
  • You don't automatically deal grab damage when you successfully maintain a grapple. That's what the constrict power is specifically for. You automatically deal the grab damage (+rakes) when you choose the "inflict damage" option.
  • I'm not entirely sure your logic for pinning is correct, but I've never really used those rules so I'm not sure.

General: It feels very oddly laid out as a whole. I'm not sure I can pin down why. I'll think on it some more. It might be the mixture of curved arrows vs cornered arrows vs arrows merging...


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Grapple Attacker
Grapple Controller
Grapple Defender

Thanks for your feedback. I tried to put the flowcharts on two sites but it is to much. So i split them up. Other things i have done:
- some grammar corrections
- rework of the defender flow chart
- added pin/grapple/tie up condition descriptions
- added options for pin
- some layout improvements

Lets talk about the actions on the flowcharts .. are there and problems , errors or missing things ?

-Edit-
I used the PF SRD and THIS site for the creation of the flowcharts, collecting informations etc.


Eridan wrote:

Grapple Attacker

Grapple Controller
Grapple Defender

Thanks for your feedback. I tried to put the flowcharts on two sites but it is to much. So i split them up. Other things i have done:
- some grammar corrections
- rework of the defender flow chart
- added pin/grapple/tie up condition descriptions
- added options for pin
- some layout improvements

Lets talk about the actions on the flowcharts .. are there and problems , errors or missing things ?

-Edit-
I used the PF SRD and THIS site for the creation of the flowcharts, collecting informations etc.

Some quick notes: Watermark is better. Initiating chart is better. Controller chart is much better laid out, but you still have Grab damage as a replacement for constrict rather than as the damage done for the "inflict damage" option. The circles on the Defender chart are kindof confusing. I'd suggest three starting boxes, each one with an arrow (possibly angled, but not curved) to each action you can do from it. I think the content looks right, though.


PF SRD wrote:


Grab (Ex)
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply to use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.

A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).

Dorkistan wrote :

Quote:

..To clear it up, I’m going to define some more terms that the rules don’t use: grab damage and constrict damage. Grab damage is the damage dealt by the grab ability when you successfully maintain a grapple. Constrict damage is damage dealt when you successful make a grapple check.

The grab ability says: maintain a grapple, deal grab damage. The grab ability says: you don’t get grab damage if you’re dealing constrict damage. But the constrict ability has that seemingly contradictory parenthetical statement. Huh?

To summarize:
Constrict: Any time you succeed a grapple check, automatically deal constrict damage.
Grab: When you maintain a grapple, deal grab damage, but only if you do not also deal constrict damage.
In both cases you can choose the damage grapple action to inflict grapple damage, but never will you get all three.

I really hate grapple :)

I think the grab / constrict damage thing is ok in my flowchart but the writing is unclear and has enough room for speculations.

Thanks for your feedback Bobson!


This flow chart is a great idea, here are some comments:

For the document: PF Grapple Init - Defender-1.pdf

Attacker/ Grapple initiator

Add: If the AoO hits, the damage amount is used as the penalty to the CMB.

Change: Move Defender to adjacent square of Attackers choice to Move Defender to adjacent square

Defender
The whole “Defender tied up” branch is confusing and has some issues.

This branch should be more like this:

Defender tied up?
Delete: Defender free from tie up (I don’t see any benefit from this block)
Delete: Defender is fast tied up (Doesn’t matter if he was or wasn’t – it may have been harder to successfully tie him up but is does NOT affect his chances of escaping)

Is defenders (attack roll + CMB) higher than controllers (CMB + 20)?
Yes: Defender Free
No: Defender still tied up

Also for the tied up condition: Defender should get a choice to roll a CMB attack or make a strength check to break the rope. DC23 for hemp rope, DC24 for silk rope.

--------------------------------------------------

For document: PF Grapple Controller-1.pdf

The tie up branch has some issues:

There should be a block added asking if the defender is pinned or grappled

If the defender is pinned:
Since you have already maintained the grapple, the tie up maneuver AUTOMATICALLY succeeds. On the defender’s turn he can try to escape with a DC equal to 20 + controllers CMB.

If the defender is only grappled (not pinned) and the controller attempts to tie him up:
The controller must make an ADDITIONAL attack roll + CMB -10 vs. the defenders CMD. If this fails the defender is not tied up. The ambiguity here is whether or not the defender is free or still grappled upon failure. I think the answer is that he is still grappled since the check to maintain the grapple has already succeeded. If the tie up check succeeds, on the defender’s turn he can try to escape with a DC equal to 20 + controllers CMB.

Shadow Lodge

Love these, look forward to seeing the next update. :)

The Exchange

If people come to a conclusion that these are better or more accurate than the ones currently on d20pfsrd, I'd be more than happy to replace the ones we have now. Just want to make sure everyone comes to a general consensus that these are solidly accurate and everyone likes them (and that the creator doesn't mind me adding them of course.)


Can you host them using Google Docs?

The Exchange

Yes, but its not necessary, as we can just host them directly on the site. Though if people preferred them in Google Docs for some reason, that's certainly an option.

Liberty's Edge

Eridan wrote:

Grapple Attacker

Grapple Controller
Grapple Defender

Thanks for your feedback. I tried to put the flowcharts on two sites but it is to much. So i split them up. Other things i have done:
- some grammar corrections
- rework of the defender flow chart
- added pin/grapple/tie up condition descriptions
- added options for pin
- some layout improvements

Lets talk about the actions on the flowcharts .. are there and problems , errors or missing things ?

-Edit-
I used the PF SRD and THIS site for the creation of the flowcharts, collecting informations etc.

Digging these so far, by the way. Thanks for putting them together. I have no feedback on the actions except to say that with a passing glance, they look good. I'm hoping someone much less lazy than myself will look at the pieces of the puzzle and "peer review" what you have so far.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
d20pfsrd.com wrote:
Yes, but its not necessary, as we can just host them directly on the site. Though if people preferred them in Google Docs for some reason, that's certainly an option.

On a total side note, I wanted to also tip my hat to John from d20pfsrd.com. Your site is indispensable! Keep up the great work.


d20pfsrd.com wrote:
Yes, but its not necessary, as we can just host them directly on the site. Though if people preferred them in Google Docs for some reason, that's certainly an option.

Don't want to install Adobe Acrobat.

The Exchange

Looks pretty accurate apart from a couple of things.

I agree with the person above that you are not limited to standard action spells.

Also on the Defender sheet, the 'yes' and 'no' for from the box 'Defenders CMB is higher than Controllers CMB' are the wrong way round. The also looks quite messy but I'm sure it is the most complicated section.

The Exchange

Also, if the defender wants to take control, of the grapple I believe they would also have a -4 penalty if they didn't have both hands free.

The Exchange

Please don't let this die. It's so close to being finished.


kingpin wrote:
Please don't let this die. It's so close to being finished.

Dont worry i dont let this "project" die :)

I have done some small changes and i will upload the new version on Wednesday. Maybe i try google docs but i like the idea from d20pfsrd.com.
Is there still someone without Acrobat Reader?! Unbelivable :)

Thanks for your support!


Believe it Vizzini (unbelievable is close enough to inconceivable)!!

However, I do have Foxit installed which is a *very* lite PDF reader.

-- david
Papa.DRB

Eridan wrote:
Is there still someone without Acrobat Reader?! Unbelivable :)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Dameragon wrote:

For the document: PF Grapple Init - Defender-1.pdf

Attacker/ Grapple initiator

Add: If the AoO hits, the damage amount is used as the penalty to the CMB.

I cant find this in the RAW.

Quote:

Also for the tied up condition: Defender should get a choice to roll a CMB attack or make a strength check to break the rope. DC23 for hemp rope, DC24 for silk rope.

Same as above. I cant find this in the RAW. You can break free by a CMB check and that represents breaking the bounds.

What else have i done:
- A lot of changes mentioned in this thread.
- Some layout changes
- I cut the grapple/pin/tie up descriptions
- i put everything in one PDF (3 JPGs)

Maybe i should delete the houserule block on the defender page?

------------------------PF Grapple Flowcharts v0.92-------
PDF Version PF Grapple Flowcharts
Zipped JPG Version PF Grapple Flowcharts
----------------------------------------------------------


Eridan wrote:
Dameragon wrote:

For the document: PF Grapple Init - Defender-1.pdf

Attacker/ Grapple initiator

Add: If the AoO hits, the damage amount is used as the penalty to the CMB.

I cant find this in the RAW.

CRB p199 : Unless otherwise noted, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver. If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver.

Eridan wrote:


Quote:
Also for the tied up condition: Defender should get a choice to roll a CMB attack or make a strength check to break the rope. DC23 for hemp rope, DC24 for silk rope.

Same as above. I cant find this in the RAW. You can break free by a CMB check and that represents breaking the bounds.

CRB p175 Table 7-15 'Burst rope bonds'


I have done some final changes.

- Some minor layout improvements
- Added some defender conditions (unconscious, stunned..) and effects (Attacker and Controller chart)
- Added "destroy bonds" option while tied up (Defender)
- Added some bond break DCs (some are unconfirmed/house rules) (Defender)
- Added penalities for AoO damage (while starting a grapple)(Attacker).
- Deleted the "fast tie up" house rule part (Defender)

I hope the flowcharts are finished now ! :)

------------------------PF Grapple Flowcharts v0.95-------
PDF Version PF Grapple Flowcharts
Zipped JPG Version PF Grapple Flowcharts
----------------------------------------------------------


------------------------PF Grapple Flowcharts v0.95-------
PDF Version PF Grapple Flowcharts
Zipped JPG Version PF Grapple Flowcharts
----------------------------------------------------------

Does nobody like or want my flowcharts ?


I just saw this post now :) - I definitely want Them, but I'm at work. Will look into it later :)


Eridan wrote:


------------------------PF Grapple Flowcharts v0.95-------
PDF Version PF Grapple Flowcharts
Zipped JPG Version PF Grapple Flowcharts
----------------------------------------------------------

Does nobody like or want my flowcharts ?

These look cool. I'm going to check them out.

Liberty's Edge

Eridan wrote:


------------------------PF Grapple Flowcharts v0.95-------
PDF Version PF Grapple Flowcharts
Zipped JPG Version PF Grapple Flowcharts
----------------------------------------------------------

Does nobody like or want my flowcharts ?

I think the flow breaks towards the middle/end of the Grappler (Controller) chart, but I'll need you and others to weigh in.

Looking at the middle, where "Choose constrict or grab special ability" branches, followed by the Constrict/Grab branch and/or the "Controller may..." branch. If you choose to follow the "...move self and Defender up to 1/2 Controller's movement" or the "...inflict damage on the defender" path, both (if successful) ultimately end at "Does Attacker maintain a hold?" step. First, hasn't the attacker already maintained the hold at the beginning of the round, upon making their successful CMB check? I could be up in the night here, but I think that question isn't necessary at the end of the flow. It was answered "yes" at the beginning of the round. If there is an assumption that the defender has managed to get free, per the Defender flow, then that should be covered in the Defender flow exclusively, on the Defender's turn. Also, this question ends in "Defender is pinned, controller has the Grapple condition." Neither of these are necessarily true if, A) The controller chose to damage or move the defender on their turn, then the Defender would not be pinned and/or B) If the controller is a creature using the Grab special ability at -15 CMB (further up the flow chart) then the controller does NOT have the grappled condition.

I think you should break "Grab" controllers and standard controllers into two separate branches, because the Grab controller should not end in a grappled condition.

Also, I think the flow shouldn't end in a "Defender is pinned" condition from the "controller moves defender" or "controller damages defender" branches. Unless the controller specifically chooses to pin the defender, then the latter is not pinned.

Use the apostrophe to show ownership. Example on the Controller flow chart:

"-4 on Attackers CMB" _should read_ "-4 on Attacker's CMB"
"...move self and Defender up to 1/2 Controllers movement" _should read_ "...move self and Defender up to 1/2 Controller's movement"

Moving up to the Defender flow chart (pg. 2), "Pinned" is spelled wrong at the top of the chart.

Also, on the Defender flow, the hops to "A" and "B" are confusing. Is it possible to re-order the flows so that this isn't necessary?

I couldn't find any other errors in the flows themselves (though, like I said, I'm no expert and others will probably want to have a look). However, I recommend going over spelling and grammar from top to bottom.

Keep up the great work!


------------------------PF Grapple Flowcharts v0.96-------

PDF Version PF Grapple Flowcharts
Zipped JPG Version PF Grapple Flowcharts

----------------------------------------------------------

Another update.

- Some grammar changes
- Some minor layout changes (Defender and Controller)
- Some corrections (Thx @ Red Wullf)
- Added unconfirmed bond type "cloth"

I hope everybody like it :)

PS: Why i cant edit my previous posts?


I am unable to download the links.

Liberty's Edge

Eridan wrote:

------------------------PF Grapple Flowcharts v0.96-------

PDF Version PF Grapple Flowcharts
Zipped JPG Version PF Grapple Flowcharts

----------------------------------------------------------

Another update.

- Some grammar changes
- Some minor layout changes (Defender and Controller)
- Some corrections (Thx @ Red Wullf)
- Added unconfirmed bond type "cloth"

I hope everybody like it :)

PS: Why i cant edit my previous posts?

Lookin' much better. Thanks for making those changes. :)


Great job Eridan. I grabbed your latest copy. Thanks for all of your hard work.


Thanks. We started using these at our gaming session. So far so good.

Rehosted your images...here are the direct links:

Pathfinder Grapple Flowchat - Attacker/Grapple Initiator
Pathfinder Grapple Flowchart - Defender
Pathfinder Grapple Flowchart - Grappler (Controller)


----------PF Grapple Flowcharts v0.96-------

PDF Version PF Grapple Flowcharts
Zipped JPG Version PF Grapple Flowcharts

----------------------------------------------------------
I have no problems with downloading the files. Maybe a local problem?

Changes in the near future:
- Layout changes
- Splitting up the Defender flowchart ("tied up" gets an own flowchart)
- Options for "multiple grapplers" on all three flowcharts
- German version of the flowcharts

Are there any problems / comments on the flowcharts or my future plans? Any other ideas or wishes?


Eridan, could you explain the "fast" Tie Up option?

I first saw this idea referenced on Dorkistan (http://www.dorkistan.com/PFRPG/misc/grapple.htm). However, I am struggling to get the same interpretation. The first sentence in Tie Up says "If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious". To me, those seem to be well defined precursors to attempting the Tie Up action (although "otherwise restrained" is somewhat nebulous). As the controller, you still have the Grappled condition when your opponent is Pinned, so I assumed the sentence, "If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes... at a -10 penalty" actually applies to the controller and isn't a special fast path around the Pinned condition (because the "pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious" requirements aren't met).

I'm think that I'm struggling with the interpretation because it seems like the Tie Up is just another kind of combat maneuver that anyone can perform as a standard action. Meaning that you can attempt to Tie Up an opponent that is Pinned and you don't have to be in a grapple to do it (and if you are, it is just a bit harder).

Btw, thanks for the hard work on the flowchart, they are very useful.


PF SRD wrote:

Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

Move
..
Damage
..
Pin
..
Tie up
..

Controller and Defender are grappling, Controller can do one of the four actions as part of his standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

PF SRD wrote:

Tie up

If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin.

Under normal conditions you need three standard actions to tie someone up. First for starting the grapple, second to pin the opponent and third to tie him up. Under some conditions you only need two standard actions (restained or unconscious). First for starting the grapple and second to tie him up (because the special prequisite "restrained or unconscious" is given).

PF SRD wrote:


If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.

Under normal conditions you need three standard actions, under some special conditions you need only two.

Here we get another option: Tie up with two standard actions without special conditions. You have to roll a "free" CMB-10 check after you maintain the grapple and with a success you go directly vom grappling to tied up.

Normal conditions:
1. round: Start grapple -> 2. round: Maintain(Pin) -> 3. round: Maintain(Tie up)

Special conditions:
1. round: Start grapple -> 2. round: Maintain(Tie up)

Special option:
1. round: Start grapple -> 2. round: Maintain(Tie up) -> also 2. round: Free CMB-10(Fast tie up)

That is my and Dorkistans interpretation.

----------PF Grapple Flowcharts v0.96-------

PDF Version PF Grapple Flowcharts
Zipped JPG Version PF Grapple Flowcharts

----------------------------------------------------------


I am back from holiday and tomorrow there will be a new version of my grapple flowcharts.

- Reinforced scarf as new bond
- Mithril manacles bond DC is new and confirmed
- Layout improvements (now 4 pages, more space between items etc.)
- New flowchart for multiple grapplers
- Multiple grapple attempt per round via grab special ability (for creatures like the octopus).

Also planed is a german version.


Thanks so much for this ... I always think I have grappling mechanics down until I try to explain it to my players (or when there is just to much to keep in my head at once). This really helps a lot.


----------PF Grapple Flowcharts v0.97-------

PDF Version PF Grapple Flowcharts

----------------------------------------------------

Ok here we are.

Changes from 0.96 to 0.97:
- Reinforced scarf as new bond
- Mithril manacles bond DC is new and confirmed
- Layout improvements (now 4 pages, more space between items etc.)
- New flowchart for multiple grapplers
- Multiple grapple attempt per round via grab special ability (for creatures like the octopus).

If nobody finds errors the flowcharts are ready for v1.0 and i will focus on a german translation. Have fun with them! :)


Brilliant, looking forward to v1.0 and the German version.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Eridan wrote:


----------PF Grapple Flowcharts v0.97-------

PDF Version PF Grapple Flowcharts

----------------------------------------------------

Rehosted as images:


Awesome! Thank you for putting this together.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I think I see something missing from the "Grappler (controller)" and "Attacker -- Grapple initiator" charts.

Grab (Ex)
"Creatures with grab receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple."


Harmor, just a note but your first flowchart has an error. In the case of joining a grapple the grappled creature cannot make an attack of opportunity because it would already be grappled.

- Gauss


Thanks for the hint .. i will correct the flow chart. Tomorrow i will upload a new one.

The last 12 month i used this flow charts and they work very well. I hope other people use them too for the damn grapple thing :)

Scarab Sages

DOT.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Nice work.

Liberty's Edge

Thanks for these. Also, image 3 of 4 is not working.

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