Help with a Kingmaker Charisma fighter


Advice

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Scarab Sages

One of the players in my game, who is a great roleplayer, but self-admittedly not so good at crunch, asked me to post for advice on how to build out her fighter. She is a human 3rd lvl weapon master, so that much is not adjustable, but she is looking for a feat buildout up to 20th, including any feats that should be swapped out.

A little background that may help.

The party is 9 strong, a twf cavalier, crossbow fighter, inquisitor of Desna, life oracle, conjuration spec wizard, caster focused druid, alchemist, rogue, and this character. She ends up playing the tank role by default, which she seems okay with.

We are playing Kingmaker, and her fighter will eventually be the Queen, so her stats and such are not optimized for slaughter. I tried to help her by suggesting some feats like toughness at 1st lvl and going the intimidate route to take advantage of her high charisma, but I think she may be floundering.

Here is the crunch:

Human Weapon Master (Aldori sword) Fighter

S-15
D-14
C-12
I-10
W-10
CH-14

Items: aldori dueling sword, gloves of dueling, short composite bow

Traits: Extremely fashionable(diplomacy), Natural born leader

Feats
1-exotic proficiency (aldori dueling sword)
weapon focus
toughness
2-Power Attack
3-Dazzling Display

Here are some of ideas of where she might be going, but nothing written in stone:

4- Weapon specialization (aldori dueling sword)
5- Iron will
6- Cornugon smash
7- Intimidating prowess
8- Shatter defenses
9-20 ???

She often teams up with the rogue, which I think was part of the rationale for the shatter defenses route.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Get Skill Focus (feat prerequisite), Eldritch Heritage, Improved Eldritch Heritage, and Greater Eldritch Heritage. The latter three feats can be found in Ultimate Magic. They give you sorcerer bloodline abilities. Eldritch Heritage gives you a sorcerer's 1st-level bloodline ability. Improved Eldritch Heritage can be taken twice and can get you a 3rd and/or 9th-level bloodline ability. Greater Eldritch Heritage gets you a 15th-level bloodline ability.

There is absolutely nothing better for a Charisma fighter. Depending on what options you go for you could end up with anything from +6 Strength or Constitution, deadly ray attacks, energy resistance, flight, natural weapons, area effect blast effects, spell resistance, etc.

Look at all the bloodlines out there. SO MANY OPTIONS with which to make your fighter completely unique and fun!


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Well two things right off the bat

in a 9 player party as a fighter she won't shine but she won suck either regardless of stats

Check out the Eldrich Herritage Feats which will give her access to sorc bloodline powers without having to take any sorc levels, there are some nice abilites for fighters to take advantage of.

Depending what flavour your going for she could get serpentine bloodline and gain a poison bite attack that will scale with level and hit like a mofo with that fighter BAB.

EDIT

I think for this character to stand out there are a couple of feat chain that while suboptimal are great for RP flavour and standing out on the table. Since you've said her destiny is to be queen.

So Vital strike chain right off the bat means she'll be doing the biggest single attack damage in the group, not the biggest dmg per round but certainly the most spectacular single attacks.

With fighter weapon profs and weapon training she'll rightfully get first pick on some of the nice weapons you'll find in Kingmaker and be able to use them and hit hard with them.

Same goes for ranged weapons vital works great with them too

Quick draw feat so she can swap between weapons rapidly would also be a good idea.

plus mobility feats, 2hander weapons would be best die for vital strikes so AC will suffer as a result.

As far as combat goes the character should be directing traffic and really take on that role of Leader. As a result her mechanical contribution won't be that great but it won't matter plus using vital strike often will make the mechanics side of her turn quick given her plenty of RP fluff time to issue commands rally the troops etc

2nd EDIT

I want to suggest a few levels dip into bard but I'm still working out how much, especially for a fighter archtype there's far less incentive to remain pure fighter


Actually forget bard, I see you've already got a cavalier in the group but if they're TWF then they're going to be heavily invested into making that TWF work.

I'd like to see the charismatic fighter take some level in cavalier for this specific ability

Tactician

in a nut shell lets the cav grant a teamwork feat to everyone in the party as a std action. With fighter bonus feats you'll have enough feats to take several teamwork feats to create a character who can shift a groups tactics on the fly and have a real mechanical benefit behind it.

with nine in the group she's giving 8 characters the same teamwork feat which is very very nice indeed

The other option is the homebrew tactician as a feat which can be taken multiple times each time granting 1 extra use per day. so she dosen't need to go into cavalier.


Having played and played around with the Aldori Swordlord, I would strongly consider going the dex/int fighter path moving towards Duelist, instead of relying on strength. That will let you shuffle some points around and have some to spare for Charisma.


Chris Kenney wrote:
Having played and played around with the Aldori Swordlord, I would strongly consider going the dex/int fighter path moving towards Duelist, instead of relying on strength. That will let you shuffle some points around and have some to spare for Charisma.

Good idea but OP did say "She is a human 3rd lvl weapon master, so that much is not adjustable"


If you did go with the Duelist path, then Dervish Dance becomes a great feat. You don't have much need for strength at that point. Focus on mobility feats, like the Step Up chain. Perhaps splash a level or two of rogue or bard. She won't do as much damage as a THF, but will have superior mobility and decent defenses (with a Dex focus and Canny Defense, her AC should still be pretty decent, and a 2 level rogue dip would net Evasion, a rogue trick or bonus feat, 1d6 sneak attack, and a gob of skill points)


Ah. Yeah, I missed that. Kind of assumed anybody who would use the Aldori sword would grab its' specific archetype.

It might be worth convincing your GM to let you switch. Conceptually they're very similar, the Swordlord archetype just lets you use the signature abilities of the weapon (defense rather than offense).

That said, the duelist path is probably still a viable one even for the setup you have, althoguh feat-wise it will likely exclude you from the arcane bloodline suggestions above.


Chris Kenney wrote:

Ah. Yeah, I missed that. Kind of assumed anybody who would use the Aldori sword would grab its' specific archetype.

It might be worth convincing your GM to let you switch. Conceptually they're very similar, the Swordlord archetype just lets you use the signature abilities of the weapon (defense rather than offense).

OP is the GM ;)


Stupid question: But why have the exotic weapon prof for the dueling sword?
It can be used as a martial weapon, and from what I see the only advantage of having the EWP is that you can finesse it, but with her stats thats not really needed.


Quatar wrote:

Stupid question: But why have the exotic weapon prof for the dueling sword?

It can be used as a martial weapon, and from what I see the only advantage of having the EWP is that you can finesse it, but with her stats thats not really needed.

from the sounds of it player is more about the RP and nothing like a min maxer and may have simply thought all exoitc weapon require exotic weapon prof, and known nothing about the specific case.

The Exchange

Ravingdork wrote:

Get Skill Focus (feat prerequisite), Eldritch Heritage, Improved Eldritch Heritage, and Greater Eldritch Heritage. The latter three feats can be found in Ultimate Magic. They give you sorcerer bloodline abilities. Eldritch Heritage gives you a sorcerer's 1st-level bloodline ability. Improved Eldritch Heritage can be taken twice and can get you a 3rd and/or 9th-level bloodline ability. Greater Eldritch Heritage gets you a 15th-level bloodline ability.

There is absolutely nothing better for a Charisma fighter. Depending on what options you go for you could end up with anything from +6 Strength or Constitution, deadly ray attacks, energy resistance, flight, natural weapons, area effect blast effects, spell resistance, etc.

Look at all the bloodlines out there. SO MANY OPTIONS with which to make your fighter completely unique and fun!

Unless he changes his mind, he isn't allowing any UM.

I happen to be the Alchemist in this particular campaign.

The Exchange

Phasics wrote:


As far as combat goes the character should be directing traffic and really take on that role of Leader. As a result her mechanical contribution won't be that great but it won't matter plus using vital strike often will make the mechanics side of her turn quick given her plenty of RP fluff time to issue commands rally the troops etc

That's not really an option, as she isn't very tactically minded in combat. She's more of the "Can I hit it? No? Then move me over to it so I can hit it" type.


Edgar Lamoureux wrote:
Phasics wrote:


As far as combat goes the character should be directing traffic and really take on that role of Leader. As a result her mechanical contribution won't be that great but it won't matter plus using vital strike often will make the mechanics side of her turn quick given her plenty of RP fluff time to issue commands rally the troops etc

That's not really an option, as she isn't very tactically minded in combat. She's more of the "Can I hit it? No? Then move me over to it so I can hit it" type.

All the more reason give her vital for 1 d20 to hit, can always move and hit and then a bunch of dice for dmg.

as far as directing traffic, I meant RP fluff directing traffic not tactical, move here flank this etc etc more inspirational/motivaitonal we've got them on the run now, press hard lads, don't let them break through etc etc.

Personally I'd say to your GM she's underpowered there no risk in homebrewing some stuff to get her "interesting"

for example give her the cavaliers tactics ability and some teamwork feats down the road, again its a 1/combat choice so not to taxing


All in all, the changes to the Aldori Dueling Sword make it a really hard weapon to optimize for. If you're not going to use it in roughly the way the designers intend, it's a long sword with crummy features you'll never use. Within the constraints set down, I don't see a way to get this build even up to par with below-average sword-and-board fighters. Back in the 3.5 days you might have had something, but times have changed. Aldori Dueling Mastery is a pale shadow of its' former self, and the weapon itself has been toned down. It would take someone far smarter than me to try to build you out of this corner you're in.

Shadow Lodge

Shatter Defenses won't help directly with the rogue, as the target is only flat-footed with respect to you. However... Consider the Enforcer feat. You have to do nonlethal melee damage to trigger Enforcer, but your target is then shaken for a number of rounds equal to your damage, so they'll have a chance to be flat-footed to your attacks for multiple rounds. Also, since nonlethal damage can still drop a foe, it might be worth it anyway.

I also like Ravingdork's suggestion, and would recommend Stormborn if you go that route. At the first feat, your weapons gain the Shock quality. Stormchild's a good second feat to take. Finally, check out Ride the Lightning. A fighter with that power? Excuse me, crashing through the lines, where's that caster, ah, there he is, zot. Oh, and now I get my attack, now that I'm next to him.

A terrifying storm queen might look something like this:

4: Weapon Specialization
5: Skill Focus: Knowledge(Nature)
6: Cornugon Smash
7: Eldritch Heritage (Stormborn)
8: Shatter Defenses
9: Leadership
10: Intimidating Prowess
11: Improved Eldritch Heritage (Stormchild)
12: Enforcer (and get a Merciful weapon)
13: Greater Weapon Specialization
14: Furious Focus
15: (Not sure?)
16: Dreadful Carnage
17: Greater Eldritch Heritage (Ride the Lightning)

See if you could get Force of Will from 3.5 for this character. That feat allows you to use your Charisma bonus instead of your Wisdom bonus for Will saves--sounds like it's just the right thing here.

Shadow Lodge

Chris Kenney wrote:
All in all, the changes to the Aldori Dueling Sword make it a really hard weapon to optimize for. If you're not going to use it in roughly the way the designers intend, it's a long sword with crummy features you'll never use. Within the constraints set down, I don't see a way to get this build even up to par with below-average sword-and-board fighters. Back in the 3.5 days you might have had something, but times have changed. Aldori Dueling Mastery is a pale shadow of its' former self, and the weapon itself has been toned down. It would take someone far smarter than me to try to build you out of this corner you're in.

If she could trade out the Dueling Sword for the Falcata, that would be interesting.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Edgar Lamoureux wrote:

Unless he changes his mind, he isn't allowing any UM.

I happen to be the Alchemist in this particular campaign.

Then he needs to dump the Charisma score and increase something else. It does nothing for fighters.

Shadow Lodge

Ravingdork wrote:
Edgar Lamoureux wrote:

Unless he changes his mind, he isn't allowing any UM.

I happen to be the Alchemist in this particular campaign.

Then he needs to dump the Charisma score and increase something else. It does nothing for fighters.

She doesn't, if she's going to be Queen.

It makes the build more challenging--but building on all the Demoralizing feats you can find will help.


Ravingdork wrote:
Edgar Lamoureux wrote:

Unless he changes his mind, he isn't allowing any UM.

I happen to be the Alchemist in this particular campaign.

Then he needs to dump the Charisma score and increase something else. It does nothing for fighters.

Hate to say it, but this is about the size of it. The charisma thing isn't insurmountable, but it requires much more careful planning to get the most out of the other stats. The player hasn't done the homework, built into a corner, and will pretty much never be very good.

If you're willing to make some accomodations, another way to 'fix' this might be to let her have the 3.5 version of the weapon and the feat from the old Campaign Setting instead of the new one in the Inner Sea World Guide. She'll still need to get on the finesse route ASAP, and her feat tree will be essentially fixed (She should get it around level 15 if she drops everything else to make this a priority) but this seems to be what you both actually want.

Scarab Sages

Yes, we are not using UM yet in the game, so the eldritch stuff is a no-go, but very nice suggestion, and I will check that part out. I just got the rulebook, and after some very unpleasant surprises in the 3.5 days, I read a new book over pretty well before I add it to the mix.

I am willing to give her a lot of leeway towards "fixing" her character, but other than a change of weapons, what else would you suggest? The characters were created using a 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 stat array, with an extra point for dex because she weakened her character combat wise to fill a role in the kingdom she wanted. So there is no dumping scores and maxing others for her to do, which is fine since there are 9 players.

I get that she isnt going to be a optimized dragonslayer that makes demon lords quake. I am looking to help keep her in the mix, relevant, and holding her own with the rest. No one else in the group is really min-maxed, so she doesn't have to be a perfect build. I do realize its a hard build to make work, hence why I am turning to you all, who seem to be better at character design than I :)

I think none of us realized that you could use the aldori sword as a martial weapon sans the finesse part without an exotic weapon proficiency. I had assumed that it was no different than an elven curved blade or several others. That conserves one feat which should help.

I can't really give her the teamwork feat set of the cavalier as a fighter, even if it fit her character, when i already have a cavalier in the party unless I want to walk all over his role. I can suggest taking some levels to her maybe and see what she says. I was sort of hoping she was going the paladin route when i saw her stats originally, but evidently LG is not her cup of tea.

What about teamwork feats?

Any more ideas would be very appreciated, otherwise its going to be myself and the alchemist trying to piece something together that works.


Why did she choose the dueling sword? Was she looking to go with a 'duelist' sort of character? If that's the concept she wants, shift her to a more dexterity-oriented build, take the feat to finesse the sword (or just use a rapier), take Dervish Dance to let her focus on a single ability. Grab the various mobility feats (Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, as well as the Step Up chain). Her damage will be decent, she'll provide a good flanking buddy for the rogue, and the mechanics will support the concept.

The Exchange

SunsetPsychosis wrote:
Why did she choose the dueling sword? Was she looking to go with a 'duelist' sort of character? If that's the concept she wants, shift her to a more dexterity-oriented build, take the feat to finesse the sword (or just use a rapier), take Dervish Dance to let her focus on a single ability. Grab the various mobility feats (Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, as well as the Step Up chain). Her damage will be decent, she'll provide a good flanking buddy for the rogue, and the mechanics will support the concept.

Dervish Dance only works with scimitars, so that won't work at all. She's the daughter of a swordlord, IIRC, so she uses the weapon of her people. She may not use it in exactly the way intended, but she does alright.

Also, Redcelt, she is the most bloodthirsty queen-to-be I have ever seen.

RD, while dumping charisma may be the optimal way to go, she is as much, if not more, focused on roleplaying than she is on rollplaying.


If she wants to keep the weapon, it wouldn't be too big a deal to houserule and reflavor Dervish Dance into something more duelist-oriented. Since she'd already have to spend a feat on EWP to make it finesseable, it seems balanced. Of course Dervish Dance has been house-ruled to apply to any blade you can finesse in my home game for a while.

The Exchange

@InVinoVeritas, the Enforcer feat would be great for her, but I have never, in the near-year I've been gaming with her, seen her do nonlethal damage, even if it was more beneficial than lethal. Otherwise, it would be perfect.

@SunsetPsychosis, I agree with the mobility feats, but that would also irk her, as she is not very into the crunch of it all.

@Redcelt32, as for Teamwork feats, I would suggest she work together with the rogue and get Outflank and/or Precise strike. These can be taken as fighter feats, if necessary.


redcelt32 wrote:

Yes, we are not using UM yet in the game, so the eldritch stuff is a no-go, but very nice suggestion, and I will check that part out. I just got the rulebook, and after some very unpleasant surprises in the 3.5 days, I read a new book over pretty well before I add it to the mix.

I am willing to give her a lot of leeway towards "fixing" her character, but other than a change of weapons, what else would you suggest? The characters were created using a 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 stat array, with an extra point for dex because she weakened her character combat wise to fill a role in the kingdom she wanted. So there is no dumping scores and maxing others for her to do, which is fine since there are 9 players.

I get that she isnt going to be a optimized dragonslayer that makes demon lords quake. I am looking to help keep her in the mix, relevant, and holding her own with the rest. No one else in the group is really min-maxed, so she doesn't have to be a perfect build. I do realize its a hard build to make work, hence why I am turning to you all, who seem to be better at character design than I :)

I think none of us realized that you could use the aldori sword as a martial weapon sans the finesse part without an exotic weapon proficiency. I had assumed that it was no different than an elven curved blade or several others. That conserves one feat which should help.

I can't really give her the teamwork feat set of the cavalier as a fighter, even if it fit her character, when i already have a cavalier in the party unless I want to walk all over his role. I can suggest taking some levels to her maybe and see what she says. I was sort of hoping she was going the paladin route when i saw her stats originally, but evidently LG is not her cup of tea.

What about teamwork feats?

Any more ideas would be very appreciated, otherwise its going to be myself and the alchemist trying to piece something together that works.

Okay this idea will give you as the GM to make it weak or powerful as required, but it really depends how you like to run your monsters.

Combat Patrol is a feat she can easily qualify for, trade out weapon for something with reach and make her turn all about setting up a combat patrol and then making AoO's when its not her turn.

However you as a GM need to run creature through that patrol on a regular basis or its going to be weak.

with 14 dex and combat reflexes a prereq she'll have 3 AoO per round and at these early levels she'll threaten a 15ft square.

This has an added effect that a player who is not that invested in combat as you've described will be looking for those AoO opporunites as they come up.


Is she wielding the blade with one hand or two? If one handed, she should invest in a shield. If the 'mobility' feats don't appeal to her, what about picking up Combat Expertise for things like Improved Disarm? That's a feat that has a very duelist feel to it, and goes well with the class features. Improved Trip is another good one, and synergizes well with a rogue flanking buddy. Trip a foe, it provokes an AoO, and now there's a dagger in his kidney.


One thing I've just thought of and kinda kicking myself for not thinking of it sooner.

Need's a little rework but USE MAGIC DEVICE !

14 CHA is +2
Trait to give her UMD as a class skill (there a couple I forget the names)+3
Skill focus UMD another +3 that goes to +6 later

at 3rd level she's kicking a respectable +11 UMD check

maybe she becomes the limited resource user of the group, using scrolls wands, rods, staffs etc etc in tandem with attacks

want to buff her power give her a wand of something cool with a few charges left. very limited charges makes it unattractive to sell for gold


A very quick fix is to Homebrew that Paladins can be less than Lawful Good and have a looser code rewrite the flavour into more just a striahgt Knight.

Smite is no so much holy as it is just big dmg.

Another option is to go left field and make her a combat manuver junkie

specifically scorpion whip trip monkey, and or disarm etc

Another Option is Battle Oracle but I can guess thats a no from other things that have been suggested and you already having an oracle in the group


Check out Chevalier

It's a rather short PrC, but has a bit of flavor that she might be interested in working towards.


a PrC might no be a bad way to salvage her charaacter without changing the core fighter

Student of War.

Stalwart Defender.

maybe flick through all the PrC's you willing to allow write up a breif description of each and present them to her to look over, she might just latch on to one in particular and then your problem will solve itself


Ravingdork wrote:
Then he needs to dump the Charisma score and increase something else. It does nothing for fighters.

I'm pretty sure this character has already seen play time. Rearranging their ability scores likely wouldn't be an option in this case.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Edgar Lamoureux wrote:
RD, while dumping charisma may be the optimal way to go, she is as much, if not more, focused on roleplaying than she is on rollplaying.

Then let her put an 8 or 10 into Charisma and then ROLEplay the character however she likes. The numbers have no bearing whatsoever on how you can ROLEplay your character, but they sure do effect how effective your character is going to be in a ROLLplay combat or skill challenge.

Volaran wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Then he needs to dump the Charisma score and increase something else. It does nothing for fighters.
I'm pretty sure this character has already seen play time. Rearranging their ability scores likely wouldn't be an option in this case.

I really don't see why it wouldn't be. If a player's fun can be improved, allow the change. I allow this ALL THE TIME if it doesn't totally EXPLODE! my campaign's internal consistency.

The Exchange

The player in question is absolutely not going to be moved into lowering her Charisma, regardless. She is dead-set on playing a charismatic fighter. Sometimes, ROLLplay skill challenges coincide with ROLEplaying the character, and she happens to be pretty good with that. As a group, we also tend to roleplay our characters fairly close to the stats. E.G., I, as the Alchemist, have a low CHA

Players in Redcelt32's Kingmaker, Look Away:
due to some backstory events which involved the rape and suicide of his former lover
, and I have played him as a very introverted character. She has had to be an intermediary for the last several years, in-game, and that is shown by how her stats are allocated. And although Redcelt32 wouldn't be bothered by letting her switch out some stats AFAIK, she is the one placing these limits on her character.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Edgar Lamoureux wrote:
The player in question is absolutely not going to be moved into lowering her Charisma, regardless. She is dead-set on playing a charismatic fighter. Sometimes, ROLLplay skill challenges coincide with ROLEplaying the character, and she happens to be pretty good with that. As a group, we also tend to roleplay our characters fairly close to the stats. E.G., I, as the Alchemist, have a low CHA ** spoiler omitted **, and I have played him as a very introverted character. She has had to be an intermediary for the last several years, in-game, and that is shown by how her stats are allocated. And although Redcelt32 wouldn't be bothered by letting her switch out some stats AFAIK, she is the one placing these limits on her character.

Women. They play a totally different game, don't they? We have a young woman in our group (who even GMs occasionally) and it really shakes things up for the rest of us guys.

If she is having fun, then that's all that really matters. However, she shouldn't complain when she finds her character is markedly less effective than others. It should also be her responsibility to fix it somehow if this "ineffectiveness" begins to intrude on the fun of the other players. From what it sounds like though, you have a large group, so it likely won't ever come up.


Well, with the limitations of not using UM and not reworking the prior stats/feats/skills/traits.. I think the suggestions of Chevalier and Vital Strike are both very good. I also think Leadership feat as soon as it is available is very good. I definitely would have encouraged the Heirloom weapon trait as a starting trait based on her concept. Daughter of a sword lord? It screams for this trait. But that is bygones. (normally, I dont allow it anymore, but this would have been a great reason)

Or try talking to her about expanding her horizons and maybe going the Bard (Arcane Duelist) option.

Myself, as a DM, would be tempted to modify a PrC like Battle Herald to fit her concept better. Anyway, no one said the Queen/Baroness/Lady has to excel at combat...that is what you lackies are for. :)

Greg


I'm currently playing as the "Ruler" for a kingmaker game, and used Leadership to get a cohort spouse. This was good for roleplaying, and gives a leader that will always be home when I'm off galavanting around and sometimes miss the "need one week of attention to do kingdom building stuff".

It's also nice that they were a spellcaster (Bard) with item creation feats, so all that time we are away doing adventuring she can make our magic items (or at least some of them).
This is also good for a player that doesn't want to get into managing another character in combat, and especially good for if your combat is already going to involve 9 player (3 of which have multiple creatures to control, likely).

Other than Leadership (which her traits and ability scores just fall nicely into), I'd focus on things that a Charismatic Fighter should be good at.

Intimidation has both in and out of combat uses. Same with Bluff. Diplomacy is a good idea, as a ruler type, but not absolutely necessary. There are diplomat positions for this kind of thing. Perhaps a highly charismatic cohort from your Leadership feat will take diplomacy.

Use Magic Device is also a good one, simply to be another person who can pull out a "save the moment" type of item (if, say, the rogue isn't focused on it or happens to be unable to do the deed at that moment).

It's a nice change of pace for a front-line fighter type, and will give the player some options outside of combat.
With a 9 character group, and a Life Oracle for healing, I don't think there will be a major need for highly optimized characters. It's the perfect time for a alternative build character.

Edit: Regarding feats, I think teamwork feats with the Rogue (outlank and precise strike) are good. The cavalier will be able to grant people some, but it's only for a short duration and limited times per day, so a "favorite" combo might be a good choice for a permanent feat option.

Shadow Lodge

Edgar Lamoureux wrote:

@InVinoVeritas, the Enforcer feat would be great for her, but I have never, in the near-year I've been gaming with her, seen her do nonlethal damage, even if it was more beneficial than lethal. Otherwise, it would be perfect.

@SunsetPsychosis, I agree with the mobility feats, but that would also irk her, as she is not very into the crunch of it all.

@Redcelt32, as for Teamwork feats, I would suggest she work together with the rogue and get Outflank and/or Precise strike. These can be taken as fighter feats, if necessary.

Have her look at Merciful weapons. She might change her tune if she sees +1d6 damage to each attack. Yes, she's knocking them out, not killing them, but that's okay.

Definitely, though, finding ways to maximize Intimidation opportunities would be great. In an ideal world, she's Demoralizing some foe every round.

Here's an alternate progression:

1: Swap out EWP: Aldori Dueling Sword with Cornugon Smash

4: Weapon Specialization
5: Furious Focus
6: Shatter Defenses
7: Leadership
8: Greater Weapon Focus
9: Enforcer
10: Intimidating Prowess
11: Deadly Stroke
12: Greater Weapon Specialization
13: Improved Overrun
14: Charge Through
15: Dreadful Carnage
16: Greater Overrun
17: Combat Reflexes

All demoralize, all the time. The Overrun is used to knock down opponents wherever they may be; With Dreadful Carnage, anyone knocked down is demoralized, with Greater Overrun they invoke an AoO, the AoO allows the attack to activate Shatter Defenses, and a regular attack can then be a Deadly Stroke.


shame there not a charisma equiavlent to guided enchement which lets you add your WIS modifer indtead of STR to attack rolls, a CHA to dmg and attack would be handy.

Scarab Sages

InVinoVeritas wrote:
Edgar Lamoureux wrote:

@InVinoVeritas, the Enforcer feat would be great for her, but I have never, in the near-year I've been gaming with her, seen her do nonlethal damage, even if it was more beneficial than lethal. Otherwise, it would be perfect.

@SunsetPsychosis, I agree with the mobility feats, but that would also irk her, as she is not very into the crunch of it all.

@Redcelt32, as for Teamwork feats, I would suggest she work together with the rogue and get Outflank and/or Precise strike. These can be taken as fighter feats, if necessary.

Have her look at Merciful weapons. She might change her tune if she sees +1d6 damage to each attack. Yes, she's knocking them out, not killing them, but that's okay.

Definitely, though, finding ways to maximize Intimidation opportunities would be great. In an ideal world, she's Demoralizing some foe every round.

Here's an alternate progression:

1: Swap out EWP: Aldori Dueling Sword with Cornugon Smash

4: Weapon Specialization
5: Furious Focus
6: Shatter Defenses
7: Leadership
8: Greater Weapon Focus
9: Enforcer
10: Intimidating Prowess
11: Deadly Stroke
12: Greater Weapon Specialization
13: Improved Overrun
14: Charge Through
15: Dreadful Carnage
16: Greater Overrun
17: Combat Reflexes

All demoralize, all the time. The Overrun is used to knock down opponents wherever they may be; With Dreadful Carnage, anyone knocked down is demoralized, with Greater Overrun they invoke an AoO, the AoO allows the attack to activate Shatter Defenses, and a regular attack can then be a Deadly Stroke.

Thank you very much, this is what I was looking for. The capacity to stay relevant, have a specific role in the party, and do some impressive things as an individual combatant, most of which leverage her cha score. Im sure she will have other issues later on, but most of those are offset by having 8 other party members. A shaken opponent is that much easier for the rest to hit or affect. And Im sure she plans to take leadership since she took natural born leader.


redcelt32 wrote:
leadership

Just make sure she picks a companion that enhances her role and abilities to keep her in the mix. Although with 9 player adding companions to combat could be a problem.

Scarab Sages

Any cohorts chosen wont be going with the party on adventures typically, only filling a role in the kingdom, etc. I already don't allow summoners, ranger pets, or summoning of monsters, allies, etc. I give druids a choice of several different spells for spontaneous casting in place of summon natures ally. Otherwise it gets too ridiculous. It is very hard to tell a druid, cavalier, or paladin they dont get their AC, however, so we actually have 9+2 ACs in the party.

It is a handful, and the combats can get long if you aren't vigilant, but we have good times.

Sovereign Court

Ditch fighter asap, go Bard and later into Battle Herald. In a party that big inspire courage will be amazing and will add to the leadership feel, and battle herald allows that charismatic character to mold into a war leader.


redcelt32 wrote:

Any cohorts chosen wont be going with the party on adventures typically, only filling a role in the kingdom, etc. I already don't allow summoners, ranger pets, or summoning of monsters, allies, etc. I give druids a choice of several different spells for spontaneous casting in place of summon natures ally. Otherwise it gets too ridiculous. It is very hard to tell a druid, cavalier, or paladin they dont get their AC, however, so we actually have 9+2 ACs in the party.

It is a handful, and the combats can get long if you aren't vigilant, but we have good times.

thats cool

actually just on her character we have a bard who is basically a high priced lady of the evening ;) although has spun the character into being the Madam of the entire kingdom and has a network of brothels that provide information for our group, they also come in handy for do recon and espionage.

Maybe an army of prostitutes won't be her cup of tea but when the time comes for her to grab leadership perhaps present it to her as a network of information gathers who can also do recon espionage etc in whatever flavour you'll think she'd enjoy.

because while its not entire useful inside combat, intel before combat or manipulating how and when that combat may take place is very useful and will lead into her becoming queen very nicely if she has her own private network people which no one else in the group will have.

Scarab Sages

She likely would have it she had not just played on in the last AP we did, RotRL. That game had a 2 barbarians (1 was a dragon disciple), a dual wielding ranger, a bow specced ranger, melee cleric, and a optimized rogue. She didnt go the bow route, so her melee contribution was nearly non-existent. Pretty much she sang and cast spells, which she was okay with, I think she just wanted something a bit more aggressive this time around. Not that she wasn't aggressive before, but with the bard it was pretty much limited to coup de grace-ing anything that ended up helpless during a battle.

I think next AP we are going to have to sit her down and design a character for her BEFORE she builds a big story background and personality, rather than trying to build the character after the background. :)


redcelt32 wrote:

She likely would have it she had not just played on in the last AP we did, RotRL. That game had a 2 barbarians (1 was a dragon disciple), a dual wielding ranger, a bow specced ranger, melee cleric, and a optimized rogue. She didnt go the bow route, so her melee contribution was nearly non-existent. Pretty much she sang and cast spells, which she was okay with, I think she just wanted something a bit more aggressive this time around. Not that she wasn't aggressive before, but with the bard it was pretty much limited to coup de grace-ing anything that ended up helpless during a battle.

I think next AP we are going to have to sit her down and design a character for her BEFORE she builds a big story background and personality, rather than trying to build the character after the background. :)

well maybe you need to try and get her to understand that in PF its perfectly acceptable to call a fork a spoon.

so although her backstory might be charisma fighter, she dosen't actually take any fighter levels and instead takes a class that will mechanically do what she wants it to even though it might not sound right.

for example with the bard there the arcane duelist where the cha would have some syngery with the build. but she need not consider herself a bard, she's a charismatic fighter
she doesn't cast spells , instead spell she uses are simply flavoured to incredible feats her fighter can achieve.

that way the mechanics work on the table and her RP is unaffected.

Scarab Sages

I have to thank you all who posted on this thread for helping me out. The big thing that I saw was that there really is no easy way out of the predicament.
After talking to the player (which isn't hard considering shes my daughter), I clarified that her attachment to her weapon is solely based on the fact that its called and Aldori sword and she felt she had to use one since it was the family weapon. I simply stole the stats from the elven curved blade, said it looks like a katana, and renamed it an Aldori dueling blade, and voila! The next time she visited her father, he mentioned that the swordsmiths had developed a new longer aldori blade, and would she like him to send her one? I am hand-waving letting her use it with the Aldori dueling sword exotic proficiency, and problem is solved. It isn't as elegant a solution as I would prefer, but it fixes the main problem and she's happy. I could have let her get to higher level and figure out theres problems, but as a weapon master its not like she could just switch over easily, and after being so overshadowed in combat last AP, I thought she deserved a build she can work with.

@InVinoVeritas - I am planning on suggesting a similar feat lineup for her to follow as she levels, so thanks again for your feat tree.


InVinoVeritas wrote:


Here's an alternate progression:

15: Dreadful Carnage

All demoralize, all the time. The Overrun is used to knock down opponents wherever they may be; With Dreadful Carnage, anyone knocked down is demoralized, with Greater Overrun they invoke an AoO, the AoO allows the attack to activate Shatter Defenses, and a regular attack can then be a Deadly Stroke.

This reads as if Dreadful Carnage activates when an opponent is knocked down. I thought Dreadful Carnage only activates if the target is reduced to 0hp? Is there another feat that causes the above effect? --I'm not sure.

The Exchange

Shakor wrote:
InVinoVeritas wrote:


Here's an alternate progression:

15: Dreadful Carnage

All demoralize, all the time. The Overrun is used to knock down opponents wherever they may be; With Dreadful Carnage, anyone knocked down is demoralized, with Greater Overrun they invoke an AoO, the AoO allows the attack to activate Shatter Defenses, and a regular attack can then be a Deadly Stroke.

This reads as if Dreadful Carnage activates when an opponent is knocked down. I thought Dreadful Carnage only activates if the target is reduced to 0hp? Is there another feat that causes the above effect? --I'm not sure.

No, you are correct, Dreadful Carnage is only hen an opponent is taken to 0 or fewer HP. Apparently, I missed that in all the times of looked through.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Phasics wrote:

well maybe you need to try and get her to understand that in PF its perfectly acceptable to call a fork a spoon.

so although her backstory might be charisma fighter, she dosen't actually take any fighter levels and instead takes a class that will mechanically do what she wants it to even though it might not sound right.

for example with the bard there the arcane duelist where the cha would have some syngery with the build. but she need not consider herself a bard, she's a charismatic fighter
she doesn't cast spells , instead spell she uses are simply flavoured to incredible feats her fighter can achieve.

that way the mechanics work on the table and her RP is unaffected.

I am THE Ravingdork and I STRONGLY support this message.

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