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Please ignore the foolish nonsence as I didn't read the original post clearly enough! :)
No you couldn't use Sneak Attack in that situation as your opponent has partial concealment (20% miss chance) and you can't use Sneak Attack if your opponent has concealment.
PFRPG p68 states "A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment."
I have just scanned through this thread so apologies if I am repeating what has already been said but...
No you couldn't use Sneak Attack in that situation as your opponent has partial concealment (20% miss chance) and you can't use Sneak Attack if your opponent has concealment.
The very first post states that the rogue has the Shadow Strike Feat which allows you to deal precision damage, such as sneak attack damage, against targets with concealment.
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The very first post states that the rogue has the Shadow Strike Feat which allows you to deal precision damage, such as sneak attack damage, against targets with concealment.
Doh! Missed that bit, ignore me :)
Sounds like a variant of sniping. You can reenter stealth after a single attack, but to do so is a move action and carries a -20 penalty. You could rule that the mist mitigates that penalty somewhat, but without a specific ruling on that scenario, that's what I would go with. You could, of course, just let it happen because it's a neat interpretation of the rules, but this has the potential of making that carefully crafted BBEG encounter you worked on a bit of a joke.
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Relevant rules, so everyone's on the same page.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.So, only difficult terrain or darkness. Obscuring Mist is not darkness.
Let's look up difficult terrain.
Hampered Movement: Difficult terrain, obstacles, or poor visibility can hamper movement.
Oh yay, really helpful that.
Poor Visibility is not defined. It's strictly a GM thing. To me, I assume you can 5ft step in dim light. That's a 20% concealment. I also assume you can 5ft step in obscuring mist, because you can see 5 ft. I see no logic in saying you have to be able to see 20 or 30 or 50 or 200000 feet to be able to adjust 5 ft.
Okay I'm a little confused as to why you quoted hampered movement instead of difficult terrain here. As the 5-foot step rules state that only darkness or difficult terrain prevent a 5 foot step.
Difficult Terrain: Difficult terrain, such as heavy undergrowth, broken ground, or steep stairs, hampers movement. Each square of difficult terrain counts as 2 squares of movement. Each diagonal move into a difficult terrain square counts as 3 squares. You can't run or charge across difficult terrain.
If you occupy squares with different kinds of terrain, you can move only as fast as the most difficult terrain you occupy will allow.
Flying and incorporeal creatures are not hampered by difficult terrain.
Difficult terrain causes hampered movement. The only place poor visibility is mentioned is in the hampered movement section.
----I wonder why the Paizo staff refuses to clarify the stealth rules.
Because they're rewriting the whole thing. Stealth Playtest
Remember you need to move into the cloud a bit. You need concealment AND you need to not be observed to make the stealth check, so standing 5 feet away from the sucker won't help you.
I'm just not sure if the person standingon the edge of the cloud (outside of it) gets concealment from someone standing inside of it or not. The line from your square to his square is the same as the line from his square to yours.
Poor Visibility is not defined. It's strictly a GM thing. To me, I assume you can 5ft step in dim light. That's a 20% concealment. I also assume you can 5ft step in obscuring mist, because you can see 5 ft. I see no logic in saying you have to be able to see 20 or 30 or 50 or 200000 feet to be able to adjust 5 ft.Okay I'm a little confused as to why you quoted hampered movement instead of difficult terrain here. As the 5-foot step rules state that only darkness or difficult terrain prevent a 5 foot step.
Difficult Terrain: Difficult terrain, such as heavy undergrowth, broken ground, or steep stairs, hampers movement. Each square of difficult terrain counts as 2 squares of movement. Each diagonal move into a difficult terrain square counts as 3 squares. You can't run or charge across difficult terrain.
If you occupy squares with different kinds of terrain, you can move only as fast as the most difficult terrain you occupy will allow.
Flying and incorporeal creatures are not hampered by difficult terrain.
Difficult terrain causes hampered movement. The only place poor visibility is mentioned is in the hampered movement section.
----I wonder why the Paizo staff refuses to clarify the stealth rules.Because they're rewriting the whole thing. Stealth Playtest
You answered your own question there. I mentioned it because that was the issue we were discussing, whether dim light (poor visibility) prevented a 5 ft step due to it being listed as one of the things that could cause difficult terrain. If it's a condition that invokes difficult terrain, then it can stop a 5 ft step. The question comes down to 'how much poor visibility is required to cut down a 5 ft step'. My stance is, enough to keep you from clearly seeing the 5 ft you are moving into.
Poor visibility is not listed as causing difficult terrain. It is listed as causing hampered movement. These are seperate things.
Edit: i agree with your ruling mdt. I'm just trying to parse out the arguement
Honestly, the argument was a year ago, so it's hard to remember now, even re-reading the thread.
The argument came down to this. If you have difficult terrain or hampered movement, you can't make a 5ft adjustment (you'll have to claw back trhough the whole thread on how those two got equated).
In obscuring mist...
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Under the current RAW, Stealth does not make your opponent lose his DEX, thus no Sneak Attack. There is a Blog is working on redoing the Stealth rules. But for now, HIPS or Stealth does not grant you Sneak Attack at all, only being Invisible
Under the current RAW, Stealth does not make your opponent lose his DEX, thus no Sneak Attack. There is a Blog is working on redoing the Stealth rules. But for now, HIPS or Stealth does not grant you Sneak Attack at all, only being Invisible
Where did you get that nonsense from?
It is really amazinghow many stealth, rogue and sneak attack haters there are!Of course a successful stealth gives you sneak attack!
The new playtest rules say it gives you the hidden condition. Thus the oponent is unaware of you and denied his DEX bonus to AC, what means you get sneak attack. What´s new id that hidden condition gives you +2 to hit. On every attack you do on your turn.
Even this sentence: "If during your last action you were hidden to a creature, you are still considered hidden when you make the first attack of that new action." doesn´t mean something else, it only states that the hidden condition is ended and you need to hide again. You still get sneak attack on all attacks during your turn because of the flat footed rules.
Everything else would make the whole rogue concept obsolete.
What i didn´t find so far was the answer to if a 5 foot step is sufficient movement for hiding?
adjacent creatures are functionally 0 feet away from each other. No concealment.Creatures who have a full 5' square between them (and can be hit with a reach weapon, or by an ogre) are 5' away from each other, and thus get concealment, or 20% miss chance.
Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.
Poison Frog has 0' reach and can only attack within its own square.
Orc with 5' reach can attack adjacent squares.
Elf with Longspear has 10' reach and can attack one more square away (barring diagonal weirdness)
Three different examples (not a vertical map, just horizontal lines:
---------------------------------------------------
[Frog/Frog] sharing square, 0'
---------------------------------------------------
[Orc] [Orc] adjacent squares, 5'
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[Elf] [space] [Elf] The elves are 10' away
---------------------------------------------------
So in Obscuring Mist, the Frogs have concealment from each other (20% miss chance). Same with the Orcs, as they are not beyond 5 feet. The elves are more than 5 feet away, so they have total concealment from each other (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target).
The new playtest rules say it gives you the hidden condition. Thus the oponent is unaware of you and denied his DEX bonus to AC, what means you get sneak attack. What´s new id that hidden condition gives you +2 to hit. On every attack you do on your turn.
Even this sentence: "If during your last action you were hidden to a creature, you are still considered hidden when you make the first attack of that new action." doesn´t mean something else, it only states that the hidden condition is ended and you need to hide again. You still get sneak attack on all attacks during your turn because of the flat footed rules.
Attacking while Hidden: Usually, making an attack against a creature ends the hidden condition. For purposes of Stealth, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. ... If during your last action you were hidden to a creature, you are still considered hidden when you make the first attack of that new action.
That's not for your whole turn, it's for your first attack.
Hidden rogue stabs a guy, ignoring his Dex to AC, and also gaining a +2 bonus to attack, and applying sneak attack dice. Rogue is now no longer hidden. Rogue's other 3 attacks are not from hidden, and do not gain the bonus.
Where did you get that nonsense from?
It is really amazing how many stealth, rogue and sneak attack haters there are!
Of course a successful stealth gives you sneak attack!
He's right. Its never explicitly stated in the rules that you loose your dexterity bonus to someone who's hiding from you.
Please note i am not a sneak attack hater. I run succesfull stealth as invisibility right down to the +2 to hit, but raw that's very shaky ground.
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Under the current RAW, Stealth does not make your opponent lose his DEX, thus no Sneak Attack. There is a Blog is working on redoing the Stealth rules. But for now, HIPS or Stealth does not grant you Sneak Attack at all, only being InvisibleWhere did you get that nonsense from?
It is really amazinghow many stealth, rogue and sneak attack haters there are!
Of course a successful stealth gives you sneak attack!
The new playtest rules say it gives you the hidden condition. Thus the oponent is unaware of you and denied his DEX bonus to AC, what means you get sneak attack. What´s new id that hidden condition gives you +2 to hit. On every attack you do on your turn.
Indeed, as I said, under a proposed new playtest rule, first proposed in a blog here, it will. Clearly Paizo has seen that the rules for Stealth need clarification and updating. I agree.
BUT- under the current RAW, it does not. In fact the proposed changes to Stealth make it pretty clear that the current RAW does NOT allow Sneak attack, otherwise they’d have just FAQed the question. Instead they propose changing the rules.
Until they do change the rules, Stealth does not make your opponent lose his DEX, thus no Sneak Attack. But for now, HIPS or Stealth does not grant you Sneak Attack at all, only being Invisible does.
Seems i have to apologize.
What is giving me a headache, not for apologizing, but for the rules.
What needs a revision is not only the stealth rules, but also surprise rounds and flat-footed condition.
While it is halfway clear when you can use stealth there are open questions on how. Not talking about feats like hellcat stealth or hips.
Surprise round is at the beginning of comabt ok. But what happens if invisible, hidden or just late-coming characters join later? Second surprise round?
I´m pretty sure that being invisible makes the other flat-footed, so hidden condition makes that too and flat-footed is not only against one attack, but all in your turn. Only with feint its different.
Then, by RAW, actually, invisibility can be countered, stealth not.
So stealth is stronger than invisibility, how should it not give the flat-footed condition? If you don´t see someone in the surprise round, you´re flat-footed against him too, it´s pretty much the same.
I agree that it all could be written better though.
Sneak attack was tied to being flat-footed or having no DE on AC.
Only it´s not so clear in which cases subjects become flat-footed all along.
Surprise round is at the beginning of comabt ok. But what happens if invisible, hidden or just late-coming characters join later? Second surprise round?
Nope, they drop into initiative based on when they act or arrive. If you're invisible, you still roll init at the start of combat, you can then delay if you want.
I´m pretty sure that being invisible makes the other flat-footed
Nope, Invisible creatures are visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any).
so hidden condition makes that too and flat-footed is not only against one attack, but all in your turn.
No, hidden makes you ignore your opponents dex bonus to AC. Not flat-footed, just denied dex.
Denied Dex is a less severe condition than flat-footed. (You can make attacks of opportunity while denied dex, but not while flat-footed)
And once you attack, you are no longer hidden, and thus no longer ignoring the opponents dex bonus to AC, and no longer getting sneak attack (unless you're flanking or doing other special things).
If you don´t see someone in the surprise round, you´re flat-footed against him too, it´s pretty much the same.
Nope, it doesn't matter if you see someone in the surprise round, At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.
Sneak attack was tied to being flat-footed or having no DE on AC.
Only it´s not so clear in which cases subjects become flat-footed all along.
You are only flat-footed if you have yet to act in the current combat.
While flat-footed, you are denied your Dex bonus to AC (among other things).
Sneak Attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC.
Similar question to this, but with enough of a twist that I'm not sure.
Rogue is in obscuring mist. He has levels of Oracle (Waves) and Water Sight. The mist does not affect him.
He shoots arrows at an enemy outside of the mist. Since the rogue is not adjacent to the enemy, the enemy has no idea where he is.
He is not using sniping, since it doesn't make sense in this scenario.
When does he roll stealth checks? After each attack? Once per round?
From what I can tell, the rules are vague on this question.
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Well this is far from an official answer and the rules I have read don't seem to specifically cover your situation, it's one of those true corner cases, but based on the scenario you have provided I would treat it as a ranged attack from an invisible attacker.
If the opponent can't see his attacker through the fog, but the Rogue can see perfectly then the Rogue is basically invisible. I don't know that I would give him the full benefits of invisibility but what I would do is deny the opponent his DEX to AC, which allows the Rogue to roll sneak attack. The Rogue doesn't really have to roll Stealth checks unless the opponent starts looking in the fog for him and he wants to move without drawing attention.
The full rules for invisible attackers can be found in this section of the PRD: Under Invisibility.
The portion I was recommending says this:
If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location.
So after the first attack, the enemy would know that his attacker was somewhere in the fog, but would not be able to pinpoint the square or visually detect the Rogue who would still be invisible for all intents and purposes.
That's my take on it.
I'll agree with that. It's the same as someone attacking a blinded target, or attacking someone in a darkness field they can see through. The person who is targeted is denied dex bonus, and thus is sneak attack valid.
That's what I was thinking would happen...
HEy, BigNorseWolf and Grick got me here!
As it turns out i was right above.
Wraithstrike just pointed it all out nicely in another thread about stealth and sneak attack.
And a 5' step is movement, so using stealth while 5'stepping is absolutely legal.
Take 5-Foot step:
"You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness."
Obscuring mist:
"The vapor obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet."
Scenario: e=enemy, c=character, x= free space, o=obscured;
viewed from character
oexcxo --> oecxo --> oexcx
It´s ok because you see where you go, 5', but not beyond.
This tactic could be countered by step up.
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none of this matters
this is not world of warcraft
using stealth does not make you fade out
Combat plays out like this
Assumptions:
1) your foe has not acted in combat yet (is flat-footed)
2) your foe is unaware of you
3) you win initiative
4) ignoring a suprise round
1) you cast your spell and move up making a stealth check (full speed, half-speed, I don't care)
2) your foe fails his perception check to hear you coming (you're probably standing right behind him and he's listening to his ipod) but has now taken an action because he's startled by your spell (he gets out a torch, or a potion, or goes on full defense, again I don't care). He's not flat-footed
3) you make your full-attack.
3a) first attack he is still unaware of you and denied his dex, you get sneak attack
3b) the rest of your attacks he is aware you are stabbing him and you do not get your sneak attack
4) you take a 5-foot step away and make a stealth check
5) he takes a 5-foot step into your old square and can now see you and he makes a full attack
By Raw he still needs a perception check to see you since you do have concealment(which is what you need since he can't see you anymore).
In fact it gets really bad with a stealth heavy ranger who has plains as a favored terrian,camoflauge, and hide in plain sight. That guy can roll stealth against you standing in afield in broad daylight and guess what you just lost sight of him. It can and does make you vanish from sight if they can't beat your check. Now i might impose a penalty like with sniping since they know your there but guess what if even with a -20 you can't beat the rogues check your kidneys are getting hit again.,
Nope you have concealment which allows you to stand or crouch or whatever in such a way that your harder to make out in that mist. Thats how the rules work by your ruling a rogue can't hide in the mist to begin with since once he is within 5ft he can be seen and since there is no facing you can't just come up behind the guy.
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the reason you can sneak up on him initially is because he is unaware of you and failed his perception check to hear you coming and the spell blocks sight beyond 5 feet. So with a high enough perception check, he would have known you were coming and the spell would only serve to prevent him from picking out which square you were in until you got with 5 feet
And how is that different than the next stealth check? unless your using spring attack the attack you make is after you finish moving meaning you have to stop 5 feet away.
Concealment and Stealth Checks
You can use concealment to make a Stealth check. Without concealment, you usually need cover to make a Stealth check.
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Your getting concealment here. And before you say that he is observing you with his ability to listen so you can't hide then the arguement that you can use bluff to do so falls apart because even if the guard turns around to look when you yell "its the Goodyear Blimp" he can still hear you.