yar.
Great. I look forward to tearing it apart! :P
Just to be clear, you moved up, attacked one, and then likely full attacked. So...2 rounds, possibly with additional attacks from allies?
Cause if that's the case, that is FAR more common an occurrence (my groups regularly drop single tough enemies in a round or two regardless of party composition).
The last instance where it was like this, the rest of the party set up a distraction to draw all the minions away so that they could be dealt with. Vega popped in while they were all looking the other way (towards the rest of the party and their distraction) and started talking to the BBEG. BBEG draws his sword and approached Vega while his minions charge the rest of the party. Vega then takes him down in 1 round. The rest of the party got in zero attacks to help Vega out, and spend the next while (2-3 rounds) taking care of the minions while Vega tied up BBEG for questioning and meting out proper justice (through the legal system).
However, I have stated already as well (and will do so again) that Vega was not a solo character. He was not doing a solo adventure. He was in a group. A team. I brought him up not as a "monks are OP and destroy everything" argument, but as a "monks can and do contribute to the endeavors of the party, and can do so incredibly well" argument.
I plead that those who delve into the level 17 Vega I'm about to post do so with the mind that this is a character working with a team of adventurers, not as a solo build. I can build other characters that do one thing that Vega does better than Vega does it, I can make a party of characters that together can do everything that some other character can do, and I can also make Vega himself more powerful, but that's not the point. The point is that Vega, a Monk, as is, was still able to contribute to the success of the party, and often did so exceedingly well.
~P
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While the rest of the group would spend 2-3 rounds taking care of "mooks", Vega would maneuver his way to the biggest, toughest, baddest looking foe, and more often than not, 1 round him. This was true for BBEG fights as well. Vega would speed around the BBEG's minions and challenge him (he was a LG, peaceful type, always giving intelligent foes a chance to repent and surrender before "showing them the error of their ways"), while the rest of the party started distracting and disabling his minions.How is it possible to both move over to a foe and take him out in a single attack within one round unless he was far weaker than the monk?
Also, if you don't post your build, then there is no evidence of anything you said. I call shenanigans.
Quivering palm.
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Monks aren't going to stay and tank. If they are hurt they will have retreat like every other non-tank class, only further.Since "tanking" doesn't work in Pathfinder, I think that is not what I was going for.
And the other question is in another soon to be 1000 post thread (the answer by the was is no).Yet as far as flavor goes, they should. Technically it is a bad idea, though.Tanking is more "blocking". Someone has to keep BBEG off the arcane casters.
If you think of the monk less as Bruce Lee and more as old wise man who always seems to be able to dodge, it works fine.
I always thought of Bruce Lee as more like a fighter than a mystic warrior myself, so it wasn't an issue for me.
Old man on the mountain are masters that kick ass while using only their legs, like Pei Mei from Kill Bill. And then they use their HANDS, things get hilariously terrible for their foes.
PF monks can't do that.
I really wish PF monks can do tank/defending really well, so they CAN use flurry to tear some stuff up. But they can't. It pisses me off because there's so many things they should be able to do, but they cannot because of the combination of 3.5/PF action system, and their class design.
Yar.
Quivering palm.
True. Vega was not the kind to kill unless he absolutely had to though, but QP definitely is an option that allows a monk to move and take down an opponent in 1 round.
^_^
~P
Quivering palm.While the rest of the group would spend 2-3 rounds taking care of "mooks", Vega would maneuver his way to the biggest, toughest, baddest looking foe, and more often than not, 1 round him. This was true for BBEG fights as well. Vega would speed around the BBEG's minions and challenge him (he was a LG, peaceful type, always giving intelligent foes a chance to repent and surrender before "showing them the error of their ways"), while the rest of the party started distracting and disabling his minions.How is it possible to both move over to a foe and take him out in a single attack within one round unless he was far weaker than the monk?
Also, if you don't post your build, then there is no evidence of anything you said. I call shenanigans.
Which obviously isn't the case here as they arrested the guy.
After Pirate's most recent post, I was thinking maybe he hog-tied the guy, but that takes a minimum of two rounds with greater grapple and a generous GM to allow you to use that second grapple check offensively.
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Monks aren't going to stay and tank. If they are hurt they will have retreat like every other non-tank class, only further.Since "tanking" doesn't work in Pathfinder, I think that is not what I was going for.
And the other question is in another soon to be 1000 post thread (the answer by the was is no).Yet as far as flavor goes, they should. Technically it is a bad idea, though.Tanking is more "blocking". Someone has to keep BBEG off the arcane casters.
If you think of the monk less as Bruce Lee and more as old wise man who always seems to be able to dodge, it works fine.
I always thought of Bruce Lee as more like a fighter than a mystic warrior myself, so it wasn't an issue for me.
Old man on the mountain are masters that kick ass while using only their legs, like Pei Mei from Kill Bill. And then they use their HANDS, things get hilariously terrible for their foes.
PF monks can't do that.
I really wish PF monks can do tank/defending really well, so they CAN use flurry to tear some stuff up. But they can't. It pisses me off because there's so many things they should be able to do, but they cannot because of the combination of 3.5/PF action system, and their class design.
Pei Mei is at least 16(h level since he has quivering palm$ if one assumes no one else is that high level he is badass.
It is all relative. But a monk of equal level shouldn't be able to out tank a class that is designed to tank.
Yar.
The BBEG was knocked unconscious due to non-lethal damage exceeding his max HP. (thus it was a very casual taking out the rope, tying him up, making sure it’s secure, look up to wonder what’s taking the others so long, picking him up, and then moving on).
Also, beyond QP, Vega (at the level I'm about to post... soon... I'm almost done) can also Flurry-Pounce with a x10 movement charge.
I really got to stop posting these small replies and finish the build post.
gah.
~P
When I was GMing I think the party only arrested one person. Otherwise they flogged/embarassed/killed/maimed their opponents.
Yar.
I have this feeling that I’m going to regret this, but here is Lv17 Vega.
25 point buy.
Following WBL table (with no single item worth more than 25%).
2 Traits
Hero Points option used (with Anti-Hero option – relying on skill rather than daring – also used)
CRB + APG only (save for 1 trait and 1 feat from the Faction Guide, and 1 trait from the Kingmaker Adventure Path Players Guide)
Disclaimer: Sure, I could have twinked him to be more effective. There are near-countless possibilities. Heck, he also could be redone with UM material, or some older 3.x paizo material (like using the Guided property to add your wisdom modifier instead of strength to both attack and damage, then max out wisdom right off the bat instead of balancing it with dex, increasing max DPR by 90+… but that is not my focus or intent), but that’s not the point. This is a character that I actually played, and he did very well in the campaign as is. Also please remember that he was not in a solo adventure. He was a part of a group. When something came up that was difficult or targeted a weakness, the GROUP worked together to overcome it, with everyone involved being able to contribute / being the one targeted. The build below also does NOT include any buffs. So in play, the numbers were actually much higher due to Bard song, long duration spell buffs, etc. We also worked well with tactical movement, providing flanking bonuses and the like. The barbarian mentioned before was like the Yang to Vega’s Yin, and we, despite being opposites in how we approached various situations, worked incredibly well together. Also note his age: at level 10 he was already in his 30’s. This was kingmaker, so a lot of time passes as you advance. At level 17 he is in his 40’s.
Again, the character/build below is without any party buffs. With buffs, everything goes up.
And again again: this is not about optimization. I can easily make Vega tougher/more effective. However, this version proved plenty effective and benificial to the group in actual play.
When he was old enough to choose his own destiny, Vega left Port Ice to focus his body and mind. Not to spread his personal influence over others, but to perfect the self, to make himself a better person. The family motto “Ours is the Right” still holds some influence over Vega, as that mentality was hard-wired into him from birth, but he still found the political machinations of his cousins to be too much. Thus, he left to train in the ancient arts of self betterment… to train as a monk.
There are no true monasteries in the River Kingdoms, but Vega’s willingness to learn from those few wandering monks and general attitude of caring for others caught the attention of a few reclusive monks who made their homes in the mountains surrounding the Valley of Fire. They invited Vega to come live with them, and learn their techniques. Vega agreed, and vanished from Brevoyian knowledge.
There were several monks there, each a former master of Kusari-Gama, but no students. No official monastery. They were simply a few martial artists living in the tranquility of these mountains. Each one specialized in a different style, but they all found solace in these windy mountains, where the elements were strong and potent. For them, it was a place where the true nature of the world, powerful and wild, yet with knowledge of how it works, peaceful, secluded, and defensible. They also felt that it was time to pass on some of their knowledge without risking disturbing the natural balance of the region by flaunting martial might.
Vega was a very apt pupil. He learned much, and was always the perfectionist. He eventually saw how he could combine the techniques of his various masters, and began honing his skills with his own, new style, combined from the techniques of these other styles. He found that his training not only made him stronger, but calmer, wiser, and at one with his surroundings. Through these martial movements and meditative techniques, Vega found truth. Truth about himself, truth about other people, truth about the nature of the world… pure and simple truth. He also learned the values of life… all life, and how even the most evil and corrupt beings can find redemptions and peace if shown mercy. (Sometimes the right kind of mercy was necessary to make others see the truth, but those are often rare corner cases).
After many years, Vega finally left his masters, and set out to spread the truth he had found through his training. He returned to Port Ice to set up a dojo where he could train young students and share the wisdom he found in his art. This was folly. The dojo lasted not even one year before Vega tore it down and resolved to not teach again. There were many factors that lead to this, including a general resentment from the populace to the discipline and mentality that came with the school, and worst of all, unworthy acolytes who used the training for greed and physical might. A number of brigands robbing and assaulting innocents using Vega’s martial arts techniques was more than enough to show Vega the err of bringing the wisdom of the arts to Brevoy. He finally realized why his masters were so reclusive and secretive, and why most monks only travel through the area and never linger long.
And so to did Vega once again leave his home, and joined his predecessors as a traveling monk. Most of the time, he would go from town to town, hamlet to hamlet, and set up a simple home in order to enjoy the simple life among the people. By doing so, he remembered his youth, now tempered with the wisdom of the monks, and found a strange yet simple beauty in the common folk. Though often undisciplined, and rough from the harsh life created by the “civilizations” of the River Kingdoms, he found them often to be very good natured at heart. Even if a town had only one person who he considered truly good, it was enough for him to find peace and beauty in the populace.
As time progressed, Vega found that his skills were more and more needed, even if not wanted, for those good people to find hope and peace. Constant threats put constant pressure on Vega to intervene, and every time he did, the good people he aided were in awe of Vega, and blessed him with thanks, praise, and volunteer labor. Gifts flowed to him like a river, and rumors of Vega’s kind and noble heart spread, especially as he humbly started to refuse gifts. And to not overburden himself with wealth and power (which he felt would draw the ire of the other housed of Brevoy, being a Surtova gaining power and influence in such a manner), but to also spread the message of hope and peaceful coexistence with everything (nature and other people), Vega continued to travel from place to place.
However, Vega was not ignorant of the actions of his relatives, or the political struggles of the various houses of Brevoy. More than once, he came into direct conflict with the raising tensions between regions and houses, and the looming threat of civil war. Not wanting his name combined with his actions to cause a civil war was yet another reason for him to keep on the move.
And so, to avoid persecution from the various Houses (including his own, as his teachings and techniques are often against how the house of Surtova tends to thin about and accomplish things), Vega began traveling to the Stolen Lands to the south. Perhaps he could find acceptance there, or help that land unite into its own kingdom free from political corruption and infighting that plagues Brevoy. Perhaps his name brought there could help stymie the shadow of violence that is looming over his former home? Regardless, he is on the move again, spreading his tranquility and views of the world to those he meets.
Trait: Noble Born: Surtova. +2 damage vs Flat-Footed opponents
Trait: Honored Fist of the Society. +1 Ki Point (Faction Guide pg 62)
Lawful Good
Human Male
Monk (Ki Mystic – Four Winds (Tiger) - Sacred Mountain) 17
Size M (5’10”, 143 lbs)
Age 42y
Speed 80’
Init: +7
HP 151 (max for first 3 levels, rolled every level after, house rule to re-roll 1’s once: 100 +34 con +17 toughness)
DR 3/-
Ki Points: 25 (10 level + 8 wisdom + 2 ki mystic + 1 trait + 4 favorite)
STR: 10 (10, -1 age, +1 inherent)
DEX: 24 (17, -1 age, +2 levels, +6 enh)
CON: 15 (10, -1 age, +6 enh)
INT: 13 (12, +1 age)
WIS: 26 (15, +2 race, +1 age, +2 levels, +6 enh)
CHA: 14 (13, +1 age)
FORT: 12 (10 base + 2 con)
REFLEX: 17 (10 base + 7 dex)
WILL: 18 (10 base + 8 wis)
AC: 44+ (10 base + 5 armor + 2 insight + 7 dex + 1 natural + 5 deflection + 1 dodge + 5 monk + 8 wisdom)
Touch AC: 38+
FF AC: 36+
Conditional AC modifiers:
+2 shield bonus if does not move
+4 dodge vs AoO from movement
+3 dodge when fighting defensively
+6 dodge during total defense
CMB: +17 (17 base + 0 size/str)
CMD*: 50 to 58+ (10 base + 12 bab + 0 str + 0 size + 7 dex + 1 dodge + 2 insight + 5 deflection + 5 monk + 8 wisdom) (+2 shield if does not move, + 6 during total defense)
* If does not move, cannot be knocked prone of forcibly moved by any means, not even by teleportation and mind-affecting effects.
Basic Attack: +20 (12 BaB + 7 Dex +1 WF)
Unarmed Flurry of Blows@*^!: +25 +25 +25# +25# +20 +20 +15 +15 +10
@ once per hour may Charge at x10 speed and Pounce, doing a Flurry of Blows at the end of the Charge, gaining an additional +2 to hit on each attack.
* Each attack grants a free Intimidate check. The Shaken condition lasts a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt. Critical hits add the Frightened condition for 1 round.
^ Each attack that hits a shaken creature makes it Flat-Footed against the rest of your attacks until the end of your next turn.
! +2 vs Humans
# Bonus attacks due to Medusa’s Wrath.
Unarmed Damage: 2d10+2+1d6 non-lethal (+2+2d6 vs Humans) (+2 vs Flat-Footed opponents)
Unarmed Additions: ~Stunning Fist: 17/day, Fort DC 26 or be stunned for 1 round = no dex to AC and -2 penalty to AC)
~Touch of Serenity: 17/day, Will DC 26 or be unable to cast spells or attack for 1 round
~Elemental Fist: 17/day, +4d6 elemental damage of my choice.
~Dim Mak: Spend 1 Ki Point to make a Stunning Fist attack as a Touch Attack.
~Quivering Palm: Fort DC 26 or die
…
Shuriken Flurry vs Normal: +23 +23 +18 +18 +13 +13 +8. 1d2+1 damage
Shuriken Flurry vs Undead: +25 +25 +20 +20 +15 +15 +10. 1d2+3+2d6 damage
Shuriken Flurry vs Constructs: +25 +25 +20 +20 +15 +15 +10. 1d2+3+2d6 damage (ignores up to 20 hardness)
Acrobatics to Jump 52 (as above + 20 from high land speed)
Climb 4 (1 rank + 0 str + 3 class)
Diplomacy 11 (5 ranks + 2 cha + 4 persuasive)
Escape Artist 15 (5 ranks + 7 dex + 3 class)
Handle Animal 3 (1 rank + 2 cha)
Heal 16 (6 ranks + 8 wis + 2 kit)
Intimidate 37 (17 ranks + 2 cha + 3 class + 5 mask + 4 persuasive + 6 skill focus)
Knowledge Geography 5 (2 ranks + 1 int + 2 mystic)
Knowledge History 7 (1 rank + 1 int + 3 class + 2 mystic)
Knowledge Local 5 (2 ranks + 1 int + 2 mystic)
Knowledge Nobility 5 (2 ranks + 1 int + 2 mystic)
Knowledge Religion 7 (1 rank + 1 int + 3 class + 2 mystic)
Perception 21/25 (10 ranks + 8 wis + 3 class) (+4 insight when not talking)
Profession: Gardener 20 (1 rank + 8 wis + 3 class + 8 race)
Ride 11 (1 rank + 7 dex + 3 class)
Sense Motive 16/20 (5 ranks + 8 wis + 3 class) (+4 insight when not talking)
Slight of Hand 8 (1 rank + 7 dex)
Stealth 15/19 (5 ranks + 7 dex + 3 class) (+4 insight when not talking)
Survival 9 (1 rank + 8 wis)
Swim 4 (1 rank + 0 str + 3 class)
Anti-Hero*: Skill Focus: Intimidate
Monk Feature: Unarmed Strike (as Improved + unique benefits)
Monk Feature: Elemental Fist (scales with level)
Monk Bonus @ 1st: Dodge
1st: Enforcer
Monk (sacred mountain) Feature @ 2nd: Toughness
Monk Bonus @ 2nd: Combat Reflexes
3rd: Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike
5th: Dazzling Display
Monk Bonus @ 6th: Ki Diversity: Dim Mak (Faction Guide pg 56-7)
7th: Weapon Finesse
9th: Shatter Defenses
Monk Bonus @ 10th: Medusa’s Wrath
11th: Stunning Fist
13th: Touch of Serenity
Monk Bonus @ 14th: Mobility
15th: Combat Patrol
17th: Spider Step
*option for never being able to use Hero Points while others can
Monk: Unarmed Strike
Four Winds: Elemental Fist (scaling)
Sacred Mountain: Toughness (Feat, +1 Natural Armor)
Monk: Fast Movement +50
Monk: Maneuver Training
Ki Mystic: Ki Mystic (Ki Pool +2, addition Ki abilities)
Monk: Ki Strike (Magic, Lawful, Adamantine)
Sacred Mountain: Bastion Stance (cannot be moved or knocked down)
Sacred Mountain: Iron Limb Defense (+2 shield bonus when not moving)
Ki Mystic: Mystic Insights (additional use of Ki)
Monk: Wholeness of body (additional use of Ki)
Sacred Mountain: Adamantine Monk (DR /- that scales, additional use of Ki)
Ki Mystic: Mystic Visions (additional use of Ki)
Four Winds: Slow Time (additional use of Ki)
Ki Mystic: Mystic Prescience (+2 insight to AC & CMD)
Monk: Quivering Palm (DC 26)
Four Winds: Aspect Master: Tiger (1/hour Charge at x10 speed and Pounce)
Sacred Mountain: Vow of Silence (+4 insight to various skills when don’t talk)
Abilities that use 1 Ki Point:
~ Extra Attack at Full Bonus in a Flurry
~ +20’ to speed
~ +4 Dodge
~ +4 Insight to a Skill Check
~ Increase Iron Limb Defense from +2 to +4
~ Dim Mak (Stunning Fist as a Touch Attack)
~ Double DR from 3/- to 6/-
Abilities that use 2 Ki Points:
~ Mystic Insights (Immediate action: ally within 30’ can reroll an attack or save)
~ Wholeness of Body (self heal 17 HP)
~ Mystic Visions (cast Divination for free while sleeping, caster level 17)
Abilities that use 6 Ki Points:
~Slow Time (gain 3 standard actions in 1 round)
Belt Pouch (1gp)
Hammock (0.1 gp)
Healer’s Kit (50 gp)
Muleback Chords (1000 gp) ~effective Str +8 for carrying capacity~
Boots of Elvenkind (2500 gp)
Mask of Intimidation (2500 gp) ~crafted for me by an ally using the Crafting Rules. Grants a +5 competence bonus to Intimidate checks~
Handy Haversack (2000 gp)
5x5 Carpet of Flying (20000 gp)
Stone of Ki Serenity (32000 gp) ~as a necklace of Ki Serenity. Paid double market value to make it slotless~
Ring of Sustenance (2500 gp)
Ring of Protection +5 (50000 gp)
Bracers of Armor +5 (25000 gp)
Monk’s Robes (13000 gp)
Headband of Inspired Wisdom +6 (36000 gp)
Belt of Physical Might +6 (90000 gp) ~for Dexterity & Constitution~
Amulet of Might Fists +2 Merciful Human Bane (80000 gp)
+1 Distance Shurikens x 40 (160 gp each)
+1 Distance Undead Bane Shurikens x 20 (360 gp each)
+1 Adamantine Distance Construct Bane Shurikens x 20 (420 gp each)
Potion of Fly (750 gp)
Potion of Bull’s Strength x3 (300 gp each)
Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds x 4 (300 gp each)
Manual of Gainful Exercise +1 (27500 gp) ~has been read~
A little over 1000 gp left over as a buffer for any other needs.
~P
Sorry, what is your definition of better with respect to 3/4 BAB classes?Also are you equating contribution to being the amount of damage done by a player in an encounter in order to determine the quality of the class?
Alchemists do an excellent job with damage and bombs, but it's situational. I don't see witches being combat power houses when compared to monks or rogues. Of course there is the Magus and the Oracle which do have some very good damage potential but i wouldn't say monks and rogues are wiped off the map because of them.
More damage, more utility to the group. The Monk ( and Rogue ) both get beaten up like red-headed step-children on that account by the rest of the 3/4 BAB classes. All those classes have spellcasting, great damage and/or utility and tons of gimmicks ( well, the Cleric doesn't, but he has full spellcasting. Not sure what the Oracles excuse is for getting so many, many interesting abilities ).
Yar!
Honestly, I do not agree with that statement. That is why I'm not touching that question. However, if you are serious about that question, I suggest a separate thread focused specifically on that question (with all the posts and text in this thread, that one line can get easily overlooked, even with Sarrion and myself addressing it at the moment).
Also, you'll not have to wait much longer for Lv.17 Vega. I'm putting him into text format right now so as to be posted.
~P
Sure, I'll be happy to look how he is built. :)
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Monks aren't going to stay and tank. If they are hurt they will have retreat like every other non-tank class, only further.Since "tanking" doesn't work in Pathfinder, I think that is not what I was going for.
And the other question is in another soon to be 1000 post thread (the answer by the was is no).Yet as far as flavor goes, they should. Technically it is a bad idea, though.Tanking is more "blocking". Someone has to keep BBEG off the arcane casters.
If you think of the monk less as Bruce Lee and more as old wise man who always seems to be able to dodge, it works fine.
I always thought of Bruce Lee as more like a fighter than a mystic warrior myself, so it wasn't an issue for me.
Old man on the mountain are masters that kick ass while using only their legs, like Pei Mei from Kill Bill. And then they use their HANDS, things get hilariously terrible for their foes.
PF monks can't do that.
I really wish PF monks can do tank/defending really well, so they CAN use flurry to tear some stuff up. But they can't. It pisses me off because there's so many things they should be able to do, but they cannot because of the combination of 3.5/PF action system, and their class design.
Pei Mei is at least 16(h level since he has quivering palm$ if one assumes no one else is that high level he is badass.
It is all relative. But a monk of equal level shouldn't be able to out tank a class that is designed to tank.
People shouldn't try to apply stats to characters. Otherwise we get ridiculous situations that people complained Darth Vader didn't have the throw lightsaber ability, and WotC created a Throw Lightsaber feat to address those players.
It's not worth the headache to stat them up.
Plus you bring up another annoying thing. Fighters pretty much have to be heavy armor combatants, and light armor doesn't work well for them at all as they lose benefits and gain nearly nothing.
Yar.
I have this feeling that I’m going to regret this, but here is Lv17 Vega.
So in short, you just stacked on a lot of dice of damage and relied on flurry to take out your foes.
Like a TWF rogue with sneak attack.
More damage, more utility to the group. The Monk ( and Rogue ) both get beaten up like red-headed step-children on that account by the rest of the 3/4 BAB classes. All those classes have spellcasting, great damage and/or utility and tons of gimmicks ( well, the Cleric doesn't, but he has full spellcasting. Not sure what the Oracles excuse is for getting so many, many interesting abilities ).
Monks have tons of "gimmicks" slow fall, improved evasion, improved movement (+60 ft as a capstone), great unarmed damage, ki powers, a decent amount of skills and great combat maneuvers as well.
Rogues have a ton of skills, trap finding and good damage when they are in a situation of flanking, or flat footed opponents(not including the scout archtype). Plus UMD helps them with some utility items that can help the party or themselves.
Personally I wouldn't call them the red-headed step-children of the 3/4 classes. The monk and rogue sacrifice huge damage output (when compared to a fighter or barbarian) for supernatural, combat and martial utility. A lot of these utilities are practically unlimited resources when compared to the finite resources of the casters (with the exception of the witches hexes).
Well, he looks like one of many variations on the "can't touch this" archetype of the Monk, with decent damage on a humans and creatures who do not have elemental resistances. So far, I fear, I am not seeing anything which most classes wouldn't do better at that level in direct comparison.
Does he contribute? Sure, he will in a good number of fights. Unless your campaign begins concentrating on outsiders, in which case I think he grows suddenly much less effective.
Anyway, a nice character nonetheless. :)
More damage, more utility to the group. The Monk ( and Rogue ) both get beaten up like red-headed step-children on that account by the rest of the 3/4 BAB classes. All those classes have spellcasting, great damage and/or utility and tons of gimmicks ( well, the Cleric doesn't, but he has full spellcasting. Not sure what the Oracles excuse is for getting so many, many interesting abilities ).
Monks have tons of "gimmicks" slow fall, improved evasion, improved movement (+60 ft as a capstone), great unarmed damage, ki powers, a decent amount of skills and great combat maneuvers as well.
Rogues have a ton of skills, trap finding and good damage when they are in a situation of flanking, or flat footed opponents(not including the scout archtype). Plus UMD helps them with some utility items that can help the party or themselves.
Personally I wouldn't call them the red-headed step-children of the 3/4 classes. The monk and rogue sacrifice huge damage output (when compared to a fighter or barbarian) for supernatural, combat and martial utility. A lot of these utilities are practically unlimited resources when compared to the finite resources of the casters (with the exception of the witches hexes).
Finite resources seldomly come into play at the high levels, as far as I have experienced.
IMO, both Monks and Rogues are quite inferior to the other 3/4 BAB classes, but of course we can agree to disagree. :)
Finite resources seldomly come into play at the high levels, as far as I have experienced.IMO, both Monks and Rogues are quite inferior to the other 3/4 BAB classes, but of course we can agree to disagree. :)
Of course we can :)
Monks have tons of "gimmicks" slow fall, improved evasion, improved movement (+60 ft as a capstone), great unarmed damage, ki powers, a decent amount of skills and great combat maneuvers as well.More damage, more utility to the group. The Monk ( and Rogue ) both get beaten up like red-headed step-children on that account by the rest of the 3/4 BAB classes. All those classes have spellcasting, great damage and/or utility and tons of gimmicks ( well, the Cleric doesn't, but he has full spellcasting. Not sure what the Oracles excuse is for getting so many, many interesting abilities ).
1) Combat Maneuvers - NO. Monks requite unique rules to NOT SUCK at Combat Maneuvers because someone is hung up on giving them full BAB. You know who IS good at combat maneuvers? FIGHTERS who can use all the martial weapons designed to assist in carrying them out.
2) Unarmed Damage - This is one of the biggest FAILINGS of the class. It doesn't matter if they increase their damage dice - MOST damage is provided by WEAPON ENCHANTMENTS and STR BONUS. Unless you can SIGNIFICANTLY increase your damage dice, like with sneak attack, it is useless. For this to be anything more than a cosmetic gimmick, the Monk needs to be able to use his advanced unarmed damage through Monk weapons, enchant his hands like weapons straight, and be less MAD.Rogues have a ton of skills, trap finding and good damage when they are in a situation of flanking, or flat footed opponents(not including the scout archtype). Plus UMD helps them with some utility items that can help the party or themselves.
UMD helps Rogues explicitly built for it. UMD helps Bards TONS MORE because they are Charisma focused.
Personally I wouldn't call them the red-headed step-children of the 3/4 classes.
Are you KIDDING? All the other 3/4 classes get spell-casting. Spell. Casting. Neither the Rogue nor the Monk are even partial casters and the Monk is bad at MONK STUFF.
Divine classes are basically the crown princes of D&D. They get all the best stuff.
1) Combat Maneuvers - NO. Monks requite unique rules to NOT SUCK at Combat Maneuvers because someone is hung up on giving them full BAB. You know who IS good at combat maneuvers? FIGHTERS who can use all the martial weapons designed to assist in carrying them out.
Monks have a CMB equal to there level, much like a fighter, and they can get tripping and disarming weapons.
2) Unarmed Damage - This is one of the biggest FAILINGS of the class. It doesn't matter if they increase their damage dice - MOST damage is provided by WEAPON ENCHANTMENTS and STR BONUS. Unless you can SIGNIFICANTLY increase your damage dice, like with sneak attack, it is useless. For this to be anything more than a cosmetic gimmick, the Monk needs to be able to use his advanced unarmed damage through Monk weapons, enchant his hands like weapons straight, and be less MAD.
Brass knuckles
Are you KIDDING? All the other 3/4 classes get spell-casting. Spell. Casting. Neither the Rogue nor the Monk are even partial casters and the Monk is bad at MONK...
If only the monk could get access to some spell-like abilities ....
63.875 is what I calculated for DPR on that level 17 monk (I would have preferred 10th but whatever) and that is assuming Medusa's wrath worked. You said you were fighting a boss so this would be lower, buffs might make up for it.
Just for anyone interested
Edit: This drops to 20 on a creature with 5 DR
Magus and Barbarian are better at combat maneuvers. The Fighter vs Monk debate is laughable.
Strenght surge maxes +20. True strike is +20 at level 1.
Just saying.
Oh, actually I had that guy in one party I GM'ed for. The solution is to ignore him and his feeble attacks and focus on the people who can actually harm your villains.
Sorry, but the Monk is still pretty pathetic. He has excellent defenses, but those don't win the 2-3 round fights at high levels.
…He also won't contribute much to the fight, compared to the rest of the party.
…
I'm sure that if your GM puts especially weak opponents before you, the Monk can kill some of them and feel like a huge contributor. Level appropiate CR's at the high levels? Not so much, unless it's one of the many badly designed monsters.
…
Because the Monk is not standing there alone. He's there with 3-4 of his friends, and while he feebly is whaling away at that enemy, secure in his knowledge that he cannot be harmed, he still isn't contributing well to the group effort, because the enemy can ignore him.
Meanwhile, the better balanced classes are taking care of said enemy, because they actually do hit and damage ( or outright eliminate, in the case of casters ) said opponent.
…But even Player Two could not make the Monk good enough to be seriously important for the party.
…
For me the high levels, ( i.e. take your pick from between 16th to 19th ) are of interest, because the argument I've been making is that Monks are not relevant at those levels, compared to other classes. I think 16th or 17th level would be ideal.
…tells me your “monk” was not able to contribute to the party at all.
Does he contribute? Sure, he will in a good number of fights.
Which was exactly my point. I was not trying to say monks are better than [class], or that all you need is a monk. I’m saying that a monk half decently built CAN and DOES contribute, which by your own admission, Vega (by far not a twinked out monk, but not crap either) does do.
And seriously:
I have stated already as well (and will do so again) that Vega was not a solo character. He was not doing a solo adventure. He was in a group. A team. I brought him up not as a "monks are OP and destroy everything" argument, but as a "monks can and do contribute to the endeavors of the party, and can do so incredibly well" argument.
I plead that those who delve into the level 17 Vega I'm about to post do so with the mind that this is a character working with a team of adventurers, not as a solo build. I can build other characters that do one thing that Vega does better than Vega does it, I can make a party of characters that together can do everything that some other character can do, and I can also make Vega himself more powerful, but that's not the point. The point is that Vega, a Monk, as is, was still able to contribute to the success of the party, and often did so exceedingly well.
…Disclaimer: Sure, I could have twinked him to be more effective. There are near-countless possibilities. Heck, he also could be redone with UM material, or some older 3.x paizo material (like using the Guided property to add your wisdom modifier instead of strength to both attack and damage, then max out wisdom right off the bat instead of balancing it with dex, increasing max DPR by 90+… but that is not my focus or intent), but that’s not the point. This is a character that I actually played, and he did very well in the campaign as is. Also please remember that he was not in a solo adventure. He was a part of a group. When something came up that was difficult or targeted a weakness, the GROUP worked together to overcome it, with everyone involved being able to contribute / being the one targeted. The build below also does NOT include any buffs. So in play, the numbers were actually much higher due to Bard song, long duration spell buffs, etc. We also worked well with tactical movement, providing flanking bonuses and the like. The barbarian mentioned before was like the Yang to Vega’s Yin, and we, despite being opposites in how we approached various situations, worked incredibly well together.
…
And again again: this is not about optimization. I can easily make Vega tougher/more effective. However, this version proved plenty effective and beneficial to the group in actual play.
I mean, seriously. Why move the goalpost? Also, if Vega was not a character in a Kingmaker game, perhaps I would not have added Human Bane to his amulet. Maybe I would have upped the plus, or if there were plenty of demons, added Demon bane instead. Or something appropriate to the campaign world he was adventuring in.
If I really wanted to simulate a TWF rogue (first, I’d just play one instead), I’d use brass knuckles or another monk weapon with flaming/frost/corrosive/shocking/bane on it instead of Unarmed with an Amulet. I really don't think I did "stack on alot of extra dice" to Vega. Also: did you not see that each hit has a very high chance of making the target Shaken, reducing its ability to function, then makes it flat footed? Or stunned (with a touch attack no less!), or unable to attack or cast, or outright die? Or I could have done a more fighter route by specializing in the Temple Sword (which IS a monk weapon, which monks ARE proficient in, and CAN flurry with), using Imp.Crit and Power Attack with it (power attack is based off of handedness and bab, NOT strength mods as many seem to believe. Switch dex for Str, or allow the Guided property to use Wisdom for attack & damage on each hit.
And again again: this is not about optimization. I can easily make Vega tougher/more effective. However, this version proved plenty effective and beneficial to the group in actual play.
Do I need to say it a third time?
I posted my experience with a monk where it proved to be useful to the group in response to magnuskn saying that monks, even when built and played by a super optimizer, are not be useful to the group. Then was asked to post him to show how he was not completely and utterly useless, but could in fact help, and sometimes, even rock.
Compare Vega to CR 17 encounters if you must. He doesn’t do too bad. Sometimes even kicks ass. He has abilities beyond simply doing damage too. Now remember that he is IN A PARTY. And this party works together, including giving Vega buffs above and beyond what he can already do. And he does the same for them (Mystic Insight anyone? Awesome ability. Flanking? So easy to do with a speed of 80. Disabling BBEG so that they are no longer a threat? Easy to do to (stunning, serenity, non-lethal damage like crazy, death effects, fear effects, blocking them via combat patrol, take your pick). And let’s not forget that he automatically benefits from a Divination spell when he rests. That is a good spell (imo).
So far, I fear, I am not seeing anything which most classes wouldn't do better at that level in direct comparison.
uhm:
I can build other characters that do one thing that Vega does better than Vega does it, and I can make a party of characters that together can do everything that some other character can do, and I can also make Vega himself more powerful, but that's not the point. The point is that Vega, a Monk, as is, was still able to contribute to the success of the party, and often did so exceedingly well.
So what other one single class at 17th level can do everything that Vega does but better? I don’t think there is one, but if you are convinced: PLEASE SHOW ME A BUILD. There are ones that can do one, maybe even a few things better, but not ALL. Same thing can be said for most every class out there. Doesn’t that tell you something?
I had a feeling that I’d regret this.
~P
@Cartigan - Does the monk melee worse or do combat maneuvers worse than the spell casters?
Monks have a CMB equal to there level, much like a fighter, and they can get tripping and disarming weapons.
1) Combat Maneuvers - NO. Monks requite unique rules to NOT SUCK at Combat Maneuvers because someone is hung up on giving them full BAB. You know who IS good at combat maneuvers? FIGHTERS who can use all the martial weapons designed to assist in carrying them out.
Except a fighter ALWAYS has a full BAB. Moreover, he has two-handed tripping and disarming weapons.
2) Unarmed Damage - This is one of the biggest FAILINGS of the class. It doesn't matter if they increase their damage dice - MOST damage is provided by WEAPON ENCHANTMENTS and STR BONUS. Unless you can SIGNIFICANTLY increase your damage dice, like with sneak attack, it is useless. For this to be anything more than a cosmetic gimmick, the Monk needs to be able to use his advanced unarmed damage through Monk weapons, enchant his hands like weapons straight, and be less MAD.Brass knuckles
Now he only needs to not require 4 high ability scores.
Are you KIDDING? All the other 3/4 classes get spell-casting. Spell. Casting. Neither the Rogue nor the Monk are even partial casters and the Monk is bad at MONK...If only the monk could get access to some spell-like abilities ....
Like Fly, Greater Invisibility, Stoneskin, Polymorph, Righteous Might, Time Stop. Oh, sorry, I was being facetious better than you.
@Cartigan - Does the monk melee worse or do combat maneuvers worse than the spell casters?
What level spell caster. Higher than... 8? Yes.
63.875 is what I calculated for DPR on that level 17 monk (I would have preferred 10th but whatever) and that is assuming Medusa's wrath worked. You said you were fighting a boss so this would be lower, buffs might make up for it.
Just for anyone interested
Edit: This drops to 20 on a creature with 5 DR
Uh, okay. Since I had a really, really mundanely built archer Inquisitor of eleventh level do a DPR of 151,63, I guess that is bad. ^^
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So what other one single class at 17th level can do everything that Vega does but better? I don’t think there is one, but if you are convinced: PLEASE SHOW ME A BUILD. There are ones that can do one, maybe even a few things better, but not ALL. Same thing can be said for most every class out there. Doesn’t that tell you something?
So do you think the monk is better than all of the other classes at level 17? Or just fighters? Or just certain classes?
The only times I ever see a monk really doing well is when they have Fly and Enlarge Person cast on them. Otherwise they always tend to be meh, replaceable by another melee class. At my current Rise of the Runelords game, the monk is pretty good at not getting hit, but not doing a lot of damage unless he gets Enlarge Person.
I always look at my characters' abilities by itself first. If he gets way better due to prep and buffs spells, that's a bonus, but it's not something that can be relied on.
Yar.
So, in order for a Monk to be considered anything other than useless, they need to out-fight a fighter, out-magic full casters (arcane or divine), and out-special ability every other class that has special abilities?
They can't dabble in multiple areas, doing decently at some of them, without out-doing classes that specialize in that one thing? They have to be able to do it all AND do it better in order to not be useless?
Seriously? Because that is the impression I’m getting.
~P
@Cartigan - Does the monk melee worse or do combat maneuvers worse than the spell casters?What level spell caster. Higher than... 8? Yes.
Why is level 8 the tipping point?
Yar.
So, in order for a Monk to be considered anything other than useless, they need to out-fight a fighter, out-magic full casters (arcane or divine), and out-special ability every other class that has special abilities?
They can't dabble in multiple areas, doing decently at some of them, without out-doing classes that specialize in that one thing? They have to be able to do it all AND do it better in order to not be useless?
Seriously? Because that is the impression I’m getting.
~P
now you under stand why the monk is only able to get love from certain deranged folks who think it is so frickin rad!
do you see what we are up against. ron paul has a better chance of being elected president then we do of getting any love for the monk.sorry ARGHHHHHHH!
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Yar.
So, in order for a Monk to be considered anything other than useless, they need to out-fight a fighter, out-magic full casters (arcane or divine), and out-special ability every other class that has special abilities?
They can't dabble in multiple areas, doing decently at some of them, without out-doing classes that specialize in that one thing? They have to be able to do it all AND do it better in order to not be useless?
Seriously? Because that is the impression I’m getting.
~P
You are the one who stated that. I was surprised you implied he can do everything really well most of the time.
The damage output seems really low unless I'm misreading that.
Your AC is nice, but I'm surprised you are not taking a lot of hits as NPCs and creatures at 17 should be hitting a lot more.
Quivering Palm at 26 is good, but I'm also surprised that creatures aren't making the saves. NPCs probably won't make them unless they are melee types.
I'm just at the start the 2nd book of Kingmaker. So far the encounters are only too hard or not hard enough.
The first step to understanding will come when you realize wizards in myth and fiction are not "those who can revise reality with a gesture," and that warriors in myth and fiction are not merely "those who are really strong and good at hitting people."Hah! Clearly we read different myth and fiction
Pei Mei is at least 16(h level since he has quivering palm$ if one assumes no one else is that high level he is badass.
You guys need to read the essay D&D: Calibrating Your Expectations by Justin Alexander.
Summary: Most heroes you have heard/seen/read about are at best level 5 if statted out for D&D.
TO me the fighter looks boring all you do is roll dice and say "hit" or "miss" the monk ads flavor to those sayings and ads abilities that dont allow you to zone out during combat and just mentally count hp in your head.
Yar.
So, in order for a Monk to be considered anything other than useless, they need to out-fight a fighter, out-magic full casters (arcane or divine), and out-special ability every other class that has special abilities?
They can't dabble in multiple areas, doing decently at some of them, without out-doing classes that specialize in that one thing? They have to be able to do it all AND do it better in order to not be useless?
Seriously? Because that is the impression I’m getting.
~P
Just the bolded part needs to be true, we are making builds in the other thread to test if it is, so far I haven't been convinced.
Why is level 8 the tipping point?@Cartigan - Does the monk melee worse or do combat maneuvers worse than the spell casters?What level spell caster. Higher than... 8? Yes.
You realize your reception of spells is staggered, right? I took a shot in the dark but at some point you are going to gain access to spells that will make you a better combatant than combatant classes.
Yar.
So do you think the monk is better than all of the other classes at level 17? Or just fighters? Or just certain classes?
The only times I ever see a monk really doing well is when they have Fly and Enlarge Person cast on them. Otherwise they always tend to be meh, replaceable by another melee class. At my current Rise of the Runelords game, the monk is pretty good at not getting hit, but not doing a lot of damage unless he gets Enlarge Person.
I always look at my characters' abilities by itself first. If he gets way better due to prep and buffs spells, that's a bonus, but it's not something that can be relied on.
I addressed this already:
I can build other characters that do one thing that Vega does better than Vega does it, I can make a party of characters that together can do everything that some other character can do, and I can also make Vega himself more powerful, but that's not the point. The point is that Vega, a Monk, as is, was still able to contribute to the success of the party, and often did so exceedingly well.
Please read posts, don't skim them. Against CR appropriate opponents, Vega doesn’t need buffs. With a +25 to +29 to hit, and a +37 to Intimidate checks on each hit to make them shaken, and each hit after that is against FF AC, plus the ability to potentially Stun opponents, he actually hits a lot without any outside help. They aren’t the most damaging hits, but they aren’t love taps either, and they do add up.
As for the DR w/ Vega. He was not built to be a DPR machine. Also, what kind of DR. He ignores magic, lawful, and adamantine. If your going to change the target for determining DPR value, then you should also change him amulet to a simple +5 (thus only DR /- and DR/epic really stop him). Did the DPR calculation show the opponent being flat footed and stunned? BTW: Vega was not built to show optimization in DPR, he was built to be played in an actual campaign, where certain truths were present, and predictions could be made.
~P
now you under stand why the monk is only able to get love from certain deranged folks who think it is so frickin rad!
do you see what we are up against. ron paul has a better chance of being elected president then we do of getting any love for the monk.
If you think our criticisms are made because we don't want the Monk to get some love, you are seriously mistaken. Quite the contrary, all you "Monks are fine, move along!" people are the ones which are probably the ones who are preventing the class from getting the necessary buffs it needs.
TO me the fighter looks boring all you do is roll dice and say "hit" or "miss" the monk ads flavor to those sayings and ads abilities that dont allow you to zone out during combat and just mentally count hp in your head.
So the monk... rolls more dice and hits or misses. Yeah, that totally changed the dynamic.
63.875 is what I calculated for DPR on that level 17 monk (I would have preferred 10th but whatever) and that is assuming Medusa's wrath worked. You said you were fighting a boss so this would be lower, buffs might make up for it.
Just for anyone interested
Edit: This drops to 20 on a creature with 5 DR
Out of curiosity, what would be average at that level? Since you're doing math anyway.
Edit: Average for a damage dealer in general.
You are the one who stated that.
Actually, it's being implied by a few, recently in particular Carigan, who's proof of why monks are sub-bar include how Fighters are better at doing one thing, while 3/4 BaB classes can cast spells, and clerics and wizards eventually gain spells that make them even better.
BYC wrote:
I was surprised you implied he can do everything really well most of the time.
Define everything. Everything he's intended to do, yes, he's not ass-terrible, and has a means to deal with many situations. Can he cast spells? No (except for divination each night, and a few abilities that are similar to spells). If this wasn't your intent, I apologize, but I'm reading a lot of arguments saying that this class can cast spells so monks suck, and this other class can hit really hard so monks suck, and this other other class can also do this if it specializes in it better than your monk who didn't specialize in it, therefore monks suck... (I'm trying to catch up on previous posts and other threads as well)... so it's quite possible I'm misinterpreting you atm, but I don't believe I actually said Vega could do everything other classes can do, but I did say that everything that he CAN do, he does fairly well. (that is, contribute to the party via several ways, including hitting things, weakening things, knocking out things, stunning things, disabling things, scaring things away, reaching hard to reach places quickly and easily, flanking things, allowing party members to reroll bad rolls, taking hits (he does have DR 3/-), occupying BBEG's when no one else can, etc).
~P
Unless I'm missing something, Big Stupid Fighter's comments with regards to trying to make a monk a tank is the only munx sux side of this discussion where the anti-monk person has had actual experience with a Pathfinder monk in a campaign over a long period of time.
Everything else in the munx sux side of all these threads has just been extreme mental masturbation - becuase the munx sux crowd has been arguing from ignorance having no experience running Pathfinder monks (-Pathfinder- monks, not 3X monks) in a campaign.
The Monk played by my resident min-maxer was a PF monk ( with the 3.5 VoP ). Still didn't do really much, compared to the mundanely built archer fighter or the pimped out Wizard/Archmage/Incantatrix ( yeah, I let them use some 3.5 PrC's back then... I was young(er) and foolish ^^ ).
If you think our criticisms are made because we don't want the Monk to get some love, you are seriously mistaken. Quite the contrary, all you "Monks are fine, move along!" people are the ones which are probably the ones who are preventing the class from getting the necessary buffs it needs.now you under stand why the monk is only able to get love from certain deranged folks who think it is so frickin rad!
do you see what we are up against. ron paul has a better chance of being elected president then we do of getting any love for the monk.
the monk could always be better but so could every class, i would love the cleric to not be so mono theistic and when he pulls out his holy symbol undead melt , not going to happen. i would love the fighter to be able to decapitate in one swing, the mage to well....the mage and sorcs are pretty good in my book could use more hd. the point is all classes could be better and more amazing but it just gets out of control there is nothing wrong with the monk.per se could he be improved sure would i love full bab and add wis to damage and hit heck yahh but then you naysayers would be all up on that saying how it is overpowered blah blah. i think really it is personnel preference it is like 1000 mini glen becks in here all making broad sweeping what if/judgmental statments.
63.875 is what I calculated for DPR on that level 17 monk (I would have preferred 10th but whatever) and that is assuming Medusa's wrath worked. You said you were fighting a boss so this would be lower, buffs might make up for it.
Just for anyone interested
Edit: This drops to 20 on a creature with 5 DR
Out of curiosity, what would be average at that level? Since you're doing math anyway.
Edit: Average for a damage dealer in general.
Twice that, around 130. You can easily optimize for much more but without optimization you'll be fine at around 130.
The Monk played by my resident min-maxer was a PF monk ( with the 3.5 VoP ). Still didn't do really much, compared to the mundanely built archer fighter or the pimped out Wizard/Archmage/Incantatrix ( yeah, I let them use some 3.5 PrC's back then... I was young(er) and foolish ^^ ).
That's a moot point, the archer-type fighter is known to be one of the highest DPR machines out there (though a zen archer is better overall). And if you comparing classes and say that the monk didn't do much compared to "bestDPRclass" and "pimped Wiz-shebang", that doesn't say much at all.
In the RL Kingmaker game I play in, our party of 5 has two damage dealers: my monk and a cavalier (the charging-lance-on-mount type). All things being optimal (the cavalier gets to charge) my monk does 10% less damage in a round. But *most* of the time things are not optimal, in which case the cavalier's DPR drops to at best 50% of his optimal. The monk is still delivering his full payload.
...
There is an important optimization aspect that is overlooked a lot of the time: there is no bonus/buff/extra in the game that doesn't have a larger impact on the monk than other classes.
Flanking? The +2 to hit increases the DPR of the monk more than the fighters. Bard song? The +X to hit-and-damage increases the monk's DPR more than the fighters. High ground? Haste? Bless? Good hope? Greater Magic Weapon? You name it... the monk will have a better pay-out from it than others. Even if the monk starts out with less DPR than the fighter in the base-state. Each buff takes the monk closer to the fighter's buffed DPR - until he exceeds him in a heavily buffed party.
the monk could always be better but so could every class, i would love the cleric to not be so mono theistic and when he pulls out his holy symbol undead melt , not going to happen. i would love the fighter to be able to decapitate in one swing, the mage to well....the mage and sorcs are pretty good in my book could use more hd. the point is all classes could be better and more amazing but it just gets out of control there is nothing wrong with the monk.per se could he be improved sure would i love full bab and add wis to damage and hit heck yahh but then you naysayers would be all up on that saying how it is overpowered blah blah. i think really it is personnel preference it is like 1000 mini glen becks in here all making broad sweeping what if/judgmental statments.
I think there is little which could endear you to me less than comparing me to Glenn Beck. >.<
But, hey, whatever. I got another Monk by the "I can't build characters" guy in my current PF group, so I'll report back in a year or so how much he sucked, compared to the others who took character classes which are decently built.
Man, I hope UC helps out the Monk to get on par with the rest. Also the Rogue.
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Yar.
So do you think the monk is better than all of the other classes at level 17? Or just fighters? Or just certain classes?
The only times I ever see a monk really doing well is when they have Fly and Enlarge Person cast on them. Otherwise they always tend to be meh, replaceable by another melee class. At my current Rise of the Runelords game, the monk is pretty good at not getting hit, but not doing a lot of damage unless he gets Enlarge Person.
I always look at my characters' abilities by itself first. If he gets way better due to prep and buffs spells, that's a bonus, but it's not something that can be relied on.
I addressed this already:
I can build other characters that do one thing that Vega does better than Vega does it, I can make a party of characters that together can do everything that some other character can do, and I can also make Vega himself more powerful, but that's not the point. The point is that Vega, a Monk, as is, was still able to contribute to the success of the party, and often did so exceedingly well.Please read posts, don't skim them. Against CR appropriate opponents, Vega doesn’t need buffs. With a +25 to +29 to hit, and a +37 to Intimidate checks on each hit to make them shaken, and each hit after that is against FF AC, plus the ability to potentially Stun opponents, he actually hits a lot without any outside help. They aren’t the most damaging hits, but they aren’t love taps either, and they do add up.
As for the DR w/ Vega. He was not built to be a DPR machine. Also, what kind of DR. He ignores magic, lawful, and adamantine. If your going to change the target for determining DPR value, then you should also change him amulet to a simple +5 (thus only DR /- and DR/epic really stop him). Did the DPR calculation show the opponent being flat footed and stunned? BTW: Vega was not built to show optimization in DPR, he was built to be played in an actual campaign, where certain truths were present, and predictions could...
I didn't ignore them. I fully believe that more damage = better for fighting characters. Defenses just do not hold up very well. If you can stun them all the time, then that works as well. Or kill them with quivering palm. If you're getting these results, good for you.
I find that humanoid NPCs are much easier to handle than crazy big monsters. We fought a ice linnorm recently with our party of 5 level 12 characters. We should have died due to CR differences, but we got lucky. The monk couldn't do anything to it. He couldn't get past the DR\ + regeneration, he can't trip it, he can't stun it, he really couldn't do much. We got lucky and the ranger hit it 3 or 4 times with crits and killed it (and he has a cold iron weapon). Maybe it's a bad example, but monsters have all sorts of things that monks do not handle well. DR, regeneration, high AC, lots of HP, virtually impossible to combat maneuver against, and just as fast if not faster in case we needed to run.
That's why I want to see how monks can do against various monsters because they need to be able to hold off (but not run off unless everybody can get away) at very least against those types of monsters of equal CR.
The Monk played by my resident min-maxer was a PF monk ( with the 3.5 VoP ). Still didn't do really much, compared to the mundanely built archer fighter or the pimped out Wizard/Archmage/Incantatrix ( yeah, I let them use some 3.5 PrC's back then... I was young(er) and foolish ^^ ).That's a moot point, the archer-type fighter is known to be one of the highest DPR machines out there (though a zen archer is better overall). And if you comparing classes and say that the monk didn't do much compared to "bestDPRclass" and "pimped Wiz-shebang", that doesn't say much at all.
In the RL Kingmaker game I play in, our party of 5 has two damage dealers: my monk and a cavalier (the charging-lance-on-mount type). All things being optimal (the cavalier gets to charge) my monk does 10% less damage in a round. But *most* of the time things are not optimal, in which case the cavalier's DPR drops to at best 50% of his optimal. The monk is still delivering his full payload.
The problem was not that the archer Fighter was doing very well ( and he did ), but that the Monk character, who was optimized, did not, even compared to other characters from prior or later campaigns.
He couldn't reliably hit with more than his first attacks.
He didn't do much damage when he hit.
But he was basically untouchable, because all his defenses were so very high. Woop-de-doo. I proceeded to ignore him and focus on the PC's who were actually a threat.
I think there is little which could endear you to me less than comparing me to Glen Beck. >.<
Thanks for reminding me, I gotta go buy some gold and seeds. :P
But, hey, whatever. I got another Monk by the "I can't build characters" guy in my current PF group, so I'll report back in a year or so how much he sucked, compared to the others who took character classes which are decently built.
Man, I hope UC helps out the Monk to get on par with the rest. Also the Rogue.
that right there is a broad sweeping statement, I did not call you glen beck i called you a mini glen beck so imagine him as a ranting halfling so technically i only half insulted you. I am sure you will now tell me druids suck because only pot smoking hippy's who love nature play druids.
Except a fighter ALWAYS has a full BAB. Moreover, he has two-handed tripping and disarming weapons.Monks have a CMB equal to there level, much like a fighter, and they can get tripping and disarming weapons.
1) Combat Maneuvers - NO. Monks requite unique rules to NOT SUCK at Combat Maneuvers because someone is hung up on giving them full BAB. You know who IS good at combat maneuvers? FIGHTERS who can use all the martial weapons designed to assist in carrying them out.
You're moving the goal posts. We were talking about combat manuvers. And what does two handed triping or disarming weapons have to do with anything?
Now he only needs to not require 4 high ability scores.2) Unarmed Damage - This is one of the biggest FAILINGS of the class. It doesn't matter if they increase their damage dice - MOST damage is provided by WEAPON ENCHANTMENTS and STR BONUS. Unless you can SIGNIFICANTLY increase your damage dice, like with sneak attack, it is useless. For this to be anything more than a cosmetic gimmick, the Monk needs to be able to use his advanced unarmed damage through Monk weapons, enchant his hands like weapons straight, and be less MAD.Brass knuckles
What meleer doesnt require 4 stats? You gonna take Dex or Wis as a dump stat? It's not like the monk has to raise Cha, which helps fighting not at all, or int, which is the same.
Like Fly, Greater Invisibility, Stoneskin, Polymorph, Righteous Might, Time Stop. Oh, sorry, I was being facetious better than you.Are you KIDDING? All the other 3/4 classes get spell-casting. Spell. Casting. Neither the Rogue nor the Monk are even partial casters and the Monk is bad at MONK...If only the monk could get access to some spell-like abilities ....
So if monks got access to righteous might they would be balanced against Inquisitors? And wont polymorph require you to use the dreaded natural weapons?