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Can anyone sum-up the problem with the Geisha for me? I think I'm failing my perception check again.
But is full of RP!
:D :D :D
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Can anyone sum-up the problem with the Geisha for me? I think I'm failing my perception check again.
Where is this geisha that you speak of? The king of the kingdom in my Kingmaker campaign LOVES everything Asian. Considering the new kingdom is being raised as a free trade hub, I'm guessing a diplomatic envoy from the far east might give the player a good smile.
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Can anyone sum-up the problem with the Geisha for me? I think I'm failing my perception check again.Where is this geisha that you speak of? The king of the kingdom in my Kingmaker campaign LOVES everything Asian. Considering the new kingdom is being raised as a free trade hub, I'm guessing a diplomatic envoy from the far east might give the player a good smile.
The diplomat could be named Inara! (For you Browncoats out there).
The Geisha is a bard archetype from Ultimate Magic. You can find a description of it on the SRD. It's an interesting option, but I've always passed over it for more direct (some would say powerful) options.
It makes a good archetype for various courtiers and urban or intrigue compaigns IMO. You don't take typical geisha on a delve uless you need a constantly complaining pampered entertainer with you and considering it according to those scales is foolish IMO.
Geisha knowledge is tailored to what it does and allows a few things that are beyond typical bards reach. Within certain specialisation geisha can achieve a really high numbers (for her level) and via versatile performance in other two skills as well. And they are real good with diplomacy as well.
You get a scribe scroll trick in your sleeve. Easily concealable source of additional spells and you can even create them via caligraphy along with some wondrous items.
And tea ceremony? 4 rounds to get 100? That's hell of a trade! It's not a thing you want to use in dirty street or dungeon combat, but claming yourself before stepping before the shogun or before going to solve a complex puzzle? And performing the ceremony before an elaborate duel of two masters (each having his own geisha as a part of the praparations)? Particularly before any task that may take too long normally to benefit from the performance and isn't úerformed in a rush. Cool thing also is that you don't have to be there to provide support. This thing also doesn't replace regular performance, so you can provide normal support in a pinch. Oh and did anyone say that you MUST provide this boon upon whole group to drain you of performance for the day? Not at all. You can do this for the specialist that will need to do what's needed and support the group as needed after that.
I don't see this archetype as weak, but rather as a skill and socially focused one.
...I don't see this archetype as weak, but rather as a skill and socially focused one.
To min-maxers, this is the definition of weak. Everyone seems to expect every class to be able to slay dragons- that's just not the case. I think the Geisha is just fine the way it is.
Some see power as ability to slay a great monster, some see it as an ability to manipulate other fools to do it for you. With the right selection of spells this bard can be a master of manipulation and intrigue. ANd be better at it than a regular adventuring bard IMO.
You know how you could've just made an expert who's good at entertaining people as an NPC? Well, here's some rules you didn't need!
Some see power as ability to slay a great monster, some see it as an ability to manipulate other fools to do it for you. With the right selection of spells this bard can be a master of manipulation and intrigue. ANd be better at it than a regular adventuring bard IMO.
With the right spells.. ANY BARD can be a master of manipulation and intrigue. Seriously, saying that the archetype can do something the base class can, and that is what makes it good.. doesn't work.
Its like replacing all the seats in a car with broken glass and saying its an upgrade because it can get you places.
The geshia fails at even really doing anything. Weather social or combative.
Its ability.. 4 bardic rounds PER person effected for a bonus that is suppose to last ten minutes. Cept, you know.. the minute or so people have to get ready to do something.. Then unless you are doing this right outside the place you need to use the buff or inside it, however long it takes to travel there.
The chances of it being used are about as often as you will find bullywags named Steve whether it is for social or combat.
If you are really wanting the ability to manipulate other fools, Look at the Celeberty or Demegogue they actually manipulate the people. For intrigue, the Sandman or Detective.
Its not just that it can't do combat, its that it really can't even do social encounters, unless you build an entire campaign around your little geisha house where you could actually have a tea party at least every so often.
One excellent thing about Tea Ceremony is that you can stack bardic performances. Use the Tea Ceremony for Heroics (+4 AC/Saves), then use Inspire Courage when in battle on top of that.
You know how you could've just made an expert who's good at entertaining people as an NPC? Well, here's some rules you didn't need!"Need's" got nuthin' to do with it.
Much as there are Warriors that aren't Fighters, there are Geisha that are not entertaining Experts.
Don't want, don't use.
There is a huge difference between the fighter and the warrior. To begin with one is a player class and the other an NPC class. But when you have something that heavy on the GM side like geisha... The DM could have made a monk geisha if he needed one.
And with this bard archtype, they are entertaining experts.
I'm not sure if the geisha is that bad, really. If anything, it loses on some of the bard's adventuring mojo due to the armor issues. The rest I'm mostly ok with, in fact.
Tea ceremony will seldom come useful anyway, but you don't lose anything. It sounds more like a way to prepare for social encounters via inspire competence, or slightly longer battles. The long duration is a problem, but unless you need to be able to react to a surprise it is simply a requirement that you can work with.
The knowledge is meh, but not all bad. I think the bonus to perform can stack with versatile performer (since you look at the bonus), and the bonus to diplomacy can be a killer. Yes, you aren't a know-it-all anymore - meh, you will manage, especially if the group has a wizard to pick up the slack when it comes to arcane knowledges. Overall, the bonus to diplomacy and the perform -> versatile performance issue make the geisha knowledge no worse than the bardic knowledge it replaces, if not more. You trade versatility for focus, basically, and it's a pretty decent deal.
Scribe scroll is meh, but has potential. It would be cool if you could make some variant scrolls like origami, but it's a matter of taste. Again, it's a freebie, so no harm done.
Overall, if you are expecting a more intrigue-oriented game, the geisha sounds like a perfectly good character. If you are expecting a more traditional game with more exploration or combat, the old bard might be a bit better.
You know how you could've just made an expert who's good at entertaining people as an NPC? Well, here's some rules you didn't need!
You know that you could have made that with any bard? And you know why I wouldn't do it? Because bards are entertaining only as a side job really. That's what they want everone to think about them to let them in.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------------------Some see power as ability to slay a great monster, some see it as an ability to manipulate other fools to do it for you. With the right selection of spells this bard can be a master of manipulation and intrigue. ANd be better at it than a regular adventuring bard IMO.With the right spells.. ANY BARD can be a master of manipulation and intrigue. Seriously, saying that the archetype can do something the base class can, and that is what makes it good.. doesn't work.
Not to the extent the geisha can achieve.
Its like replacing all the seats in a car with broken glass and saying its an upgrade because it can get you places.The geshia fails at even really doing anything. Weather social or combative.
Never said it's good at combat, although his archetype doesn't really fall behind a regular bard that isn't focused on combat (strength builds and other such stuff) once mage armoured (yes external aid is needed, but geisha shouldn't encounter combat nearly as often). Can you proove that it can't achieve anything in social sphere? Or that you can get your social skills higher at least?
Its ability.. 4 bardic rounds PER person effected for a bonus that is suppose to last ten minutes.
I noticed, like you could have noticed from my post.
Cept, you know.. the minute or so people have to get ready to do something.. Then unless you are doing this right outside the place you need to use the buff or inside it, however long it takes to travel there.The chances of it being used are about as often as you will find bullywags named Steve whether it is for social or combat.
Sure it takes long, but there are situations that prevent standard use of performance or just take too long to accomplish. They may come around more often than you realize, but if you take adventuring only as a frantic action, then it's no wonder that this is of no use to you.
If you are really wanting the ability to manipulate other fools, Look at the Celeberty or Demegogue they actually manipulate the people. For intrigue, the Sandman or Detective.Its not just that it can't do combat, its that it really can't even do social encounters, unless you build an entire campaign around your little geisha house where you could actually have a tea party at least every so often.
Celebrity - good at getting attention of a crowd, not really any better at subtly suggesting things to those fools that really matter and of course they WILL remember well who did it.
Demagogue - another crowd manipulator, this time more of a hatemongerSandman - a liar and spell stealer/manipulator, not really great at persuading.
Detective - manipulator's enemy, not really a manipulator himself.
I think you mistake manipulation and intrigue for bluff. Bluff is really more about "Look behind you!" tricks and immediate "It wasn't me!", but long term truths and deceptions are diplomacy stuff mainly. you are not teling outright lies. You tell the truth to correct people at the right time and they will make assumptions you want them to make themselves. Geisha if anything is a veiled, smiling counterpart to the courtier. The courtier writes pamphlets and instigates scandals, while geisha can actually be the one at the heart of them (and not really in victim's role).
I'm not sure if the geisha is that bad, really. If anything, it loses on some of the bard's adventuring mojo due to the armor issues. The rest I'm mostly ok with, in fact.
Tea ceremony will seldom come useful anyway, but you don't lose anything. It sounds more like a way to prepare for social encounters via inspire competence, or slightly longer battles. The long duration is a problem, but unless you need to be able to react to a surprise it is simply a requirement that you can work with.
The knowledge is meh, but not all bad. I think the bonus to perform can stack with versatile performer (since you look at the bonus), and the bonus to diplomacy can be a killer. Yes, you aren't a know-it-all anymore - meh, you will manage, especially if the group has a wizard to pick up the slack when it comes to arcane knowledges. Overall, the bonus to diplomacy and the perform -> versatile performance issue make the geisha knowledge no worse than the bardic knowledge it replaces, if not more. You trade versatility for focus, basically, and it's a pretty decent deal.
Scribe scroll is meh, but has potential. It would be cool if you could make some variant scrolls like origami, but it's a matter of taste. Again, it's a freebie, so no harm done.
Overall, if you are expecting a more intrigue-oriented game, the geisha sounds like a perfectly good character. If you are expecting a more traditional game with more exploration or combat, the old bard might be a bit better.
+1 to that.
Not really being into dungeon delving and dragon slaying doesn't mean that your niche is already taken.
So, I was kicking around doing a Geisha at some point, if I found a way to overcome its shortcomings. Does anyone have any sweet actual Geisha builds?
-Matt
Wait, you guys say the geisha is good for a intrigue oriented game. So, in what way is she superior to the regular bard in that? Does she gain anything useful for intrigue and/or manipulation?
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So, I was kicking around doing a Geisha at some point, if I found a way to overcome its shortcomings. Does anyone have any sweet actual Geisha builds?
The Geisha archetype loses a total of two things - armour / shield proficiency and Bardic Knowledge - and swaps out the Bard weapon profiencies to use a single 'Monk' weapon. Most Geisha builds will be exactly the same as any other Bard build in most respects - most bard builds not being developed based heavily on their use of armour and shields or the like anyway.
A Geisha in a dungeon bash isn't likely to wear a traditional kimono, any more than any other Bard would dress in colourful motley under the same situations - they're no less adventurers than any other archetype in that respect.
That said, Bards don't get Mage Armour or Shield in their spell lists to make up for the lack of armour a Geisha gets, so you're unlikely to be designing her as a 'melee' Bard.
Choice of 'Monk' weapon is an interesting one. I'd suggest Siangham (to have a 1d6 weapon you can conceal in a spring-loaded wrist sheath), or shuriken (to help you keep your distance). Otherwise the temple sword is always a solid choice... if you're really wanting to head into melee... For simple weapons, a long spear is a good choice (again, to keep your distance), and there's always the crossbows for ranged attacks... The Geisha has as much BAB as any other Bard.
Scribe Scroll is one of those Item Creation Feats where you need to know the spell (they're spell-completion items), so taking the Expanded Arcana Feat and / or the Human Bard favoured class bonus to gain extra spells known is twice as nice for the Geisha as it is for most Bards (or, at least, those who don't take Scribe Scroll).
Wait, you guys say the geisha is good for a intrigue oriented game. So, in what way is she superior to the regular bard in that? Does she gain anything useful for intrigue and/or manipulation?
She gets to add half her class level onto Craft (calligraphy), Diplomacy, Knowledge (nobility), and one type of Perform, checks. Diplomacy and Knowledge (nobility) in particular are great for intrigue-based games, and the bonus on Perform greatly benefits the Bard Versatile Performance class feature (so, for example, she could take her Geisha bonus on Perform (act) and then use Versatile Peformance to use that in place of Bluff and Disguise checks).
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See, if I was going to play a game with little to no adventuring in it that was based entirely on espionage and politics and that sort of thing, I wouldn't play D&D. I'd play a game built for espionage and politics.
That is the biggest flaw in the geisha - it's a class that isn't very good because it's built towards doing things 3.x isn't very good at doing. Pathfinder isn't built towards a skills heavy game, it's built towards an adventure heavy game. And the geisha isn't as good at adventuring.
but you can combine espionage with 'adventuring' especially since the system's definition of 'adventuring' is really 'banditry'.
espionage isn't urban exclusive, nor is adventuring exclusive to the underground.
3 adventure paths i beleive a geisha would do excellent in without much thought
curse of the crimson throne
council of thieves
kingmaker
and they might do reasonably well in some aspects of second darkness and carrion crown as long as thier players are reasonably well informed
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The Geisha is the only Bard archetype (at the moment) who replaces Bardic Knowledge with something that boosts her Perform skill... which means she gets more out of Versatile Performance than any other Bard.
She swaps out some weapon proficiencies for some others.
She retains her Bard BAB, and spellcasting abilities.
All she really loses is light armour and shield use... if that somehow cripples a Bard as an adventurer, than I guess you're looking at very melee-heavy games, and the Geisha probably isn't the optimal choice. Otherwise she's more of a skill monkey than even other Bards, with Scribe Scroll for 'free', and the Tea Ceremony which, if you leaverage its use well, can be a great asset.
Geisha, not having armour and shield proficiencies, is also a more natural archetype to multiclass with classes like Monk, Sorcerer, or Wizard - if that's your bag (which, if you're optimising, it won't be...).
but you can combine espionage with 'adventuring' especially since the system's definition of 'adventuring' is really 'banditry'.
espionage isn't urban exclusive, nor is adventuring exclusive to the underground.
3 adventure paths i beleive a geisha would do excellent in without much thought
curse of the crimson throne
council of thieves
kingmaker
and they might do reasonably well in some aspects of second darkness and carrion crown as long as thier players are reasonably well informed
As a player of Kingmaker (one session to end the AP) i can tell that the geisha wouldn't help any more than any other bard, and it would help less than any other bard because it can't fight so good as the bard.
you don't need to be a PC to contribute. a Cohort works too. They make just as good of a cohort as a rogue or any other bard.
A Geisha may not contribute much to combat
but combat isn't the only factor.
The bard is already a great mix of fighting and skills. Probably one of the best "Adventurer" classes.
The geisha just takes away too much for what it adds. If this were a skills-based system, it'd be a lot more equaled out.
Don't want, don't use.
I don't like this way of thinking.
With this logic Paizo could just chuck out a bunch of mechanically wonky classes that nobody would use, but they'd still be there on the astronomical off chance that somebody would want to.
There are a lot of classes and archetypes that fall into gray areas, but I can't see a scenario where spending 10 minutes preparing a 10 minute buff would ever be viable when adventuring, or at the very best extremely situational. I'd personally be fine with it if it was 10 minutes preparation for a 1 hour buff.
Kind of sucks because I like the rest of the Geisha's abilities.
So, in an intrigue based campaign, you or your cohort has to go spend 10 minutes doing a ceremony before any big meeting... Even if you rule that the affected allies don't have to be part of the ceremony it's still pretty bad. Maybe if you could make the ceremony and save the effects to actvate later, so you could do the ceremony in the morning and activate at night, then it would be better, it would be an ability to use bardic performance without the performance. As it is, it's just meh. Best way to describe it, really, meh.
So, in an intrigue based campaign, you or your cohort has to go spend 10 minutes doing a ceremony before any big meeting... Even if you rule that the affected allies don't have to be part of the ceremony it's still pretty bad. Maybe if you could make the ceremony and save the effects to actvate later, so you could do the ceremony in the morning and activate at night, then it would be better, it would be an ability to use bardic performance without the performance. As it is, it's just meh. Best way to describe it, really, meh.
it's not the free 10 minute buff the archtype is about
it's the free item creation feat.
item creation feats are worth sacrificing multiple levels worth of decent class abilities to get.
but you get it at the cost of several proficiencies you won't really use. it's effectively a free feat.
and you trade knowledge bonuses for more focus on your role as face. big deal. not every powerful class is designed to engage in melee combat.
it's a lot easier to build a geisha around a role not oriented around combat. face especially. the geisha makes a better caster than the core bard as well, because it sacrifices almost nothing for a free item creation feat.
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The diplomat could be named Inara! (For you Browncoats out there).
[Mal laughs]
[...]
Inara: "'Ambassador' is Mal's way of sayin-"
Mal: "She's a whore, Shepard."
Kaylee: "The term is 'Companion.'"
Mal: "Yeah, I always get those mixed up. How's business?"
Inara: "None of yours."
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item creation feats are worth sacrificing multiple levels worth of decent class abilities to get.
What?! No that is just plain wrong. Flat out wrong.
Anyways on to the actual question I think that people who say the geisha sucks are really more just disappointed that it really doesn't much help to actually provide rules to better fit an oriental campaign. It's really just about equal to bard but not different enough or better enough at any given facet to justify taking as an alt class. It also really doesn't have anything that stands out as helping a character better emulate the role of geisha than a regular bard.
The team ceremony is really the worst part. Its duration is the biggest stickler. I have never heard of any diplomatic meeting that lasted 10 minutes or less. Diplomatic meetings last for hours on end as people haggle and negotiate. So all the tea ceremony can possibly be used for is to give a small buff to a samurai about to enter a duel or to make someone's plea to a government official more convincing but if and only if you can guarantee they won't have to wait in line because if they have to wait your benefit is lost.
I honestly think that the geisha could be made into a class better at filling that social role if the tea ceremony lasted for 10 or 30 minutes per bard level but had a bonus equal to only about half the normal value. That way you actually could use it for some sort of courtly matter or to help a general about to defend the fortress or any other appropriate situation.
Bottom line. People are not complaining because the geisha isn't powerful enough. People are complaining because it doesn't actually add anything to help play the archetype any better.
So, in an intrigue based campaign, you or your cohort has to go spend 10 minutes doing a ceremony before any big meeting... Even if you rule that the affected allies don't have to be part of the ceremony it's still pretty bad. Maybe if you could make the ceremony and save the effects to actvate later, so you could do the ceremony in the morning and activate at night, then it would be better, it would be an ability to use bardic performance without the performance. As it is, it's just meh. Best way to describe it, really, meh.
I didn't mean that those who benefit from the ceremony effect don't take part in it. Just that the geisha doesn't have to use it on whole group. The ceremony is only performed on a person wo does the iportant thing when the rest would be just rolling aid another or doing something else really.
See, if I was going to play a game with little to no adventuring in it that was based entirely on espionage and politics and that sort of thing, I wouldn't play D&D. I'd play a game built for espionage and politics.
That is the biggest flaw in the geisha - it's a class that isn't very good because it's built towards doing things 3.x isn't very good at doing. Pathfinder isn't built towards a skills heavy game, it's built towards an adventure heavy game. And the geisha isn't as good at adventuring.
Not quite. You can have a decent game of intrigue with D&D and geisha would thrive there. It would be the same type of game where Master Spy PrC would do great.
Bard is really a jack-of-all-trades and is really good at it, but geisha is just another aspect of this class.
It's subtlety and persuation.
It's the person that is accepted in the company of highborn and able to loose tight lips.
It's the gray eminence behind the scenes.
It's the ambition behind great persons.
It's Mata Hari
It's Scheherazade
And if you must go that battle, just UMD that mage armour and be off.
item creation feats are worth sacrificing multiple levels worth of decent class abilities to get.
What?! No that is just plain wrong. Flat out wrong.
Anyways on to the actual question I think that people who say the geisha sucks are really more just disappointed that it really doesn't much help to actually provide rules to better fit an oriental campaign. It's really just about equal to bard but not different enough or better enough at any given facet to justify taking as an alt class. It also really doesn't have anything that stands out as helping a character better emulate the role of geisha than a regular bard.
The team ceremony is really the worst part. Its duration is the biggest stickler. I have never heard of any diplomatic meeting that lasted 10 minutes or less. Diplomatic meetings last for hours on end as people haggle and negotiate. So all the tea ceremony can possibly be used for is to give a small buff to a samurai about to enter a duel or to make someone's plea to a government official more convincing but if and only if you can guarantee they won't have to wait in line because if they have to wait your benefit is lost.
I honestly think that the geisha could be made into a class better at filling that social role if the tea ceremony lasted for 10 or 30 minutes per bard level but had a bonus equal to only about half the normal value. That way you actually could use it for some sort of courtly matter or to help a general about to defend the fortress or any other appropriate situation.
Bottom line. People are not complaining because the geisha isn't powerful enough. People are complaining because it doesn't actually add anything to help play the archetype any better.
Not that the talks actually can't take place during the ceremony. A n eatly arranged meeting with programe whe the parties are exchanging words and geisha observes ceremonial parts. First ten minutes the parties are just exchanging greetings and niceties and then geisha just keeps up the performance as one bonus drops it was exactly 10 minutes and another kicks-in.
It can really be any elaborate ceremony, from ball to a conference, as long as some kind of protocol is observed.
I know the talks don't take place during the ceremony, but the effects still only last 10 minutes after it is finished, which means you'd have to have the ceremony in a side room immediately before the talks happen and then after it drops you have what an extra 3 minutes of buffs from regular bardic performance if the diplomat's performer is even allowed into a conference. No just no. The buffs need to be longer to matter in an intrigue based game. Maybe have a caveat that combat makes them disappear faster if you think that it would be unbalanced for a dungeon crawl but please if your argument is that geisha is for an intrigue game the buffs are simply too short duration.
Not that the talks actually can't take place during the ceremony. A n eatly arranged meeting with programe whe the parties are exchanging words and geisha observes ceremonial parts. First ten minutes the parties are just exchanging greetings and...
I think that actually makes some sort of sense here, and is probably how its thought to be.
At 10th level, assuming a Cha of 22, she could buff a single ally for 70 minutes like that. That might not be enough for every situation, but should cover alot.
However:
Considering that Cha is the primary attribute and her class skills and the Geisha bonus she gets to Diplomacy, makes the Geisha the perfect Face for a group, so most likely she would be the one leading the negotiations etc, and not the group's barbarian. But that doesn't make much sense if she's busy all the time performing the ceremony.
(it makes more sense if the Geisha is just a cohort)
Not that the talks actually can't take place during the ceremony. A n eatly arranged meeting with programe whe the parties are exchanging words and geisha observes ceremonial parts. First ten minutes the parties are just exchanging greetings and...I think that actually makes some sort of sense here, and is probably how its thought to be.
At 10th level, assuming a Cha of 22, she could buff a single ally for 70 minutes like that. That might not be enough for every situation, but should cover alot.
However:
Considering that Cha is the primary attribute and her class skills and the Geisha bonus she gets to Diplomacy, makes the Geisha the perfect Face for a group, so most likely she would be the one leading the negotiations etc, and not the group's barbarian. But that doesn't make much sense if she's busy all the time performing the ceremony.
(it makes more sense if the Geisha is just a cohort)
nope she can't: 10 minutes from tea, 18 rounds from levels, 10 rounds level 1 and from cha, so 12.8 minutes.
nope she can't: 10 minutes from tea, 18 rounds from levels, 10 rounds level 1 and from cha, so 12.8 minutes.
Not that the talks actually can't take place during the ceremony. A n eatly arranged meeting with programe whe the parties are exchanging words and geisha observes ceremonial parts. First ten minutes the parties are just exchanging greetings and...I think that actually makes some sort of sense here, and is probably how its thought to be.
At 10th level, assuming a Cha of 22, she could buff a single ally for 70 minutes like that. That might not be enough for every situation, but should cover alot.
However:
Considering that Cha is the primary attribute and her class skills and the Geisha bonus she gets to Diplomacy, makes the Geisha the perfect Face for a group, so most likely she would be the one leading the negotiations etc, and not the group's barbarian. But that doesn't make much sense if she's busy all the time performing the ceremony.
(it makes more sense if the Geisha is just a cohort)
No, I think you don't understand what Zmar meant.
The meeting happens during the ceremony, not after. They sit down, talk, drink tea, while the Geisha is performing her duties.Minute 0: People meet up, introduce each other, make small talk. Geisha starts preparing the tea ceremony. (alternatively this part happens 10 minutes before the guests arrive if possible)
Minute 10: Tea ceremony is finished, Buff kicks in for 10 minutes, "real" meeting starts. Geisha starts preparing tea ceremony #2.
Minute 20: Buff #1 runs out, Tea ceremony #2 is finished, Buff #2 kicks in. Geisha prerpares tea ceremony #3.
She can do that 7 times, for 70 minutes total.
Exactly. Social skills don't have actions associated for their non-combat use and neither does the tea ceremony acutely prescribe what action must be undetaken during the ceremony. Is it a serie of full round actions or really just a neatly organised venture that takes 10 minutes (limit enforced because the effect uses up resources) where everyone engages in small talk under geisha supervision and enjoys some higher culture? And does it really prevent the other social skills from being used if we're at it? If the geisha talks then no action diplomacy and bluff are a free game IMO. Just no suggestions, spells and other bard mojo, but exchanging words? Why not?
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See, if I was going to play a game with little to no adventuring in it that was based entirely on espionage and politics and that sort of thing, I wouldn't play D&D. I'd play a game built for espionage and politics.
And that's your game. Fortunately, there's a lot of PF players who aren't playing in your game.
Not to the extent the geisha can achieve.Never said it's good at combat, although his archetype doesn't really fall behind a regular bard that isn't focused on combat (strength builds and other such stuff) once mage armoured (yes external aid is needed, but geisha shouldn't encounter combat nearly as often). Can you proove that it can't achieve anything in social sphere? Or that you can get your social skills higher at least?
The geisha will encounter combat as often as the PARTY encounters combat.
And again, it isn't that it can't achieve stuff in the social sphere, its that the archetype DOES NOT really add to the ability to add into the social sphere.
Like i said, making a car, replacing the seats with broken glass WILL still be able to get you from point A to point B. But to pretend that is an upgrade to its ability to get you from point A to point B is incredibly stupid.
If we made an archetype that gave the bard the ability to grow a fro any time he wanted that replaced... its ability to use a long sword, yes the archetype doesn't fall behind the normal bard. BECAUSE IT IS THE NORMAL BARD STILL.
And that's what you are doing. It falls behind the normal bard in combat, UMD or not. It stays right along the normal bard in social stuff, because it doesn't really take away from the social things, other than you know.. the several knowledge skills that bards get.
Also WHERE in the archtype does it say "The geisha is capable of preforming a 'dance' that causes people who fail their will saves to obediently serve the geisha and not know that the geisha is manipulating them. Cause you know, your "control the fools" is far greater with the sandman than the geisha.
Also the "there are some situations that normal performances cant be used too.." That's a cop-out. There are some situations that you can't use acrobatics. cause like.. you are tied up. However in 99% of the rest of the time you can use it. Especially if your main performance skill is acting. The tea party? You need to have a specific campaign in order for it to work. The whole reason why you say that the geisha is good at intrigue is simply because it can add half its level to diplomacy.
Though, I guess if you yourself (as in the player) are as geisha as you seem to think the geisha is, I guess you could totally rules laywer the tea party ability to allow you to tea party ALL THE TIME. It never says that you can't have tea ALL THE TIME everywhere you go. You don't even need to spend performances to have TEA ALL THE TIME.
So basically, because it is vague, you could start up 10 minute tea parties, every single round, regardless of what you are doing. Fighting a dragon? USE ITS FLAME TO BOIL THE TEA! Shambling mound got you down? TURN THAT THING INTO TEA!
Truthfully that's the only way to really get the geisha to work at all. Make TEA ALL THE TIME. WITH TWO SCOOPS!!
And that's your game. Fortunately, there's a lot of PF players who aren't playing in your game.See, if I was going to play a game with little to no adventuring in it that was based entirely on espionage and politics and that sort of thing, I wouldn't play D&D. I'd play a game built for espionage and politics.
You're right, there unfortunately are a lot of people who have yet to learn that there are systems outside of D&D.
I think the problem is that people are looking at a archtype that was largely intended for NPC use from the persepctive of "How will that be of benefit to my PC?"
The problem is that a book largely intended for PC use ended up getting large amounts of NPC stuff. Putting a large amount of rules like this in a book that is suppose to be intended for PC use, is like having going to a Chinese buffet, but all the food is reserved for the cook making it.
The GM doesn't need rules per say. He can create whatever the hell he wants. one of my GMs for example removed weapon finesse and made it part of the weapon. He also removed climb, escape artist and swim. created athletics, and had it deal with climb/swim/jump. removed jump from acrobatics, and added in escape artist. Made athletics con based.
But you don't see that in any of the books thus far for pathfinder.
Another GM of mine, had us fight bizarre plant/tree dog things. Hell I created Legion, created a size catagory larger than gargantuan and then complicated systems for the Magical Book of Chaos, and the random alchemy potion creation system.
But you know when I couldn't create stuff? When I was the player. The player actually needs stuff in books to play it, then GM doesn't. The GM has several books actually that could give him ideas. GM guide, Bestiaries, adventure modules etc.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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You're right, there unfortunately are a lot of people who have yet to learn that there are systems outside of D&D.And that's your game. Fortunately, there's a lot of PF players who aren't playing in your game.See, if I was going to play a game with little to no adventuring in it that was based entirely on espionage and politics and that sort of thing, I wouldn't play D&D. I'd play a game built for espionage and politics.
Pathfinder is a system outside of D&D. :D
Pathfinder is a system outside of D&D. :DYou're right, there unfortunately are a lot of people who have yet to learn that there are systems outside of D&D.And that's your game. Fortunately, there's a lot of PF players who aren't playing in your game.See, if I was going to play a game with little to no adventuring in it that was based entirely on espionage and politics and that sort of thing, I wouldn't play D&D. I'd play a game built for espionage and politics.
No it isn't. It is fundamentally 3.5.
