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I love the magus, and I have read and re-read the Spellstrike ability several times, but I can't be absolutely sure of something: let's say you are a player race that has natural attacks (such as a tengu's bite attack) - can you deliver a spellstrike through natural attacks, such as a bite, claw, or tail? If a monster takes on magus levels, do they get to use their natural weapons to deliver spellstrikes automatically, or do they require some other ability/feat/option? Thanks.
-will
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It requires you to be wielding a weapon and the spell is cast through that weapon. So no natural attacks.
But wait a few minutes and someone will prove me wrong.;)
Spell combat says
while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand
if we're splitting hairs a claw is considered a light melee weapon, hell an unarmed strike is a light melee weapon.
if there was a hard requirement for a manufactured weapon you could argue it should say so.
honestly it doesn't really make a difference for spellstrike a manufactured weapon with an 18-20 threat range is optimal for spellstrike so anything less like a natural attack is not overpowered.
so long as your not trying to get additional attacks by mixing natural and manufactured and trying to spell combat the lot, its fine.
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honestly it doesn't really make a difference for spellstrike a manufactured weapon with an 18-20 threat range is optimal for spellstrike so anything less like a natural attack is not overpowered.
so long as your not trying to get additional attacks by mixing natural and manufactured and trying to spell combat the lot, its fine.
This is primarily in connection to the material I am writing: cougarans (catfolk) get two claws attacks as primary weapons, or secondary if they wield any manufactured weapons - just like a tengu's bite. I suspect the most broken anyone will try and make it at this level (and with no other racial abilities allowing primary or better use of the natural attack), will be attempting to make a spellstrike spell effect with either a blade or a claw, but obviously not both - since that is not allowed within the scope of the ability anyways).
It gets gritty when you start adding magus levels to something more potent with more gruesome natural attacks in their base build. This is where my concern really comes into place - though I could use an official ruling, especially if it's already been discussed, as I suspect it has. I recently created an NPC, and before I finalize it, I want to know if the words "plus spellstrike" would need to be added after the claw damage roll stat. I added it in after the quarterstaff attack - she's a staff magus. :D I love it. ;) But yeah, I could still use some clarification in concrete.
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if we're splitting hairs a claw is considered a light melee weapon, hell an unarmed strike is a light melee weapon.
if there was a hard requirement for a manufactured weapon you could argue it should say so.
I think it's necessary to split hairs on this, considering the application to monsters for advancement. Also, to counterpoint, for effects such as Magic Weapon / Magic Fang differentiation, a monk's unarmed strike is considered a weapon and not a natural attack. An aboleth using his tentacles with spellstrike because he has magus levels presents an example of this questionable definition of the "wielded light weapon" deal.
Never forget the aboleths - you will curse the day you did so. If an aboleth can do it, it can be done. :P ;)
I'm guessing you have a particular example or where in particular you see the trouble?
I can't come up with a single instance where a spellstrike through natural weapon is going to cause a balance issue.
so if you've go an example please post I'd like to take a look at it.
I have a question: on the hexcrafter guide, it says, for Prehensile hairs:
"The gravy is it's a PRIMARY NATURAL ATTACK so all your iterative attacks are at FULL BAB."
But this seems to be in contrast with natural attack rules:
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.
So, if I make my iterative weapons attack, and then make the hair attack, it should be at -5. Even if I use my only natural attack, I still don't get the iterative attacks, if I have an high bab. Someone could clarify this?
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Gah, there's a faq page for a reason guys.
Magus: When using spell combat, can the weapon in my other hand be an unarmed strike or a natural weapon?Yes, so long as the weapon is a light or one-handed melee weapon and is associated with that hand. For example, unarmed strikes, claws, and slams are light melee weapons associated with a hand, and therefore are valid for use with spell combat. A tail slap is not associated with a hand, and therefore is not valid for use with spell combat.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 04/05/13
Natural AttacksMost creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and add the creature’s full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature’s base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type.
I highlighted the important parts for you. As for mixing the iterative attacks with the Hair strike the guide specifically says don't do this UNLESS you are using the hair just as a touch attack. Then the -5 to hit and strength penalty don't matter.
I read that faq a tons of times, but never saw this way. Anyway, I just want to understand if I'm using correctly my attack routine: spell combat with weapon iterative attacks and hairs at -5, for a -7 total. This is my standard attack routine (useful for a bunch of thing. Primarily I can AoO at 10 feet, and in the round I cast frostbite I can fatigue up to 3 targets, that's not bad, imho :))
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There is a new magus arcana in Blood of the Moon, Natural Spell Combat i think its called that lets you use a natural attack as part of spell combat. This would allow you to attack with the hair as a primary weapon, at str 1.5x, and spell combat a spell for the same roll/damage.
Incorrect, the arcana doesn't work that way.
First you can already use the hair with spellcombat normally without needing the arcana.Second, the purpose of that arcana is for using NON-hand based natural attacks with spellcombat (tentacles, gore, bite, wings, etc.)
Third, the Arcana does not undo the normal rules for natural attacks stating if they are used with iterative attacks they become secondary attacks and suffer those penalties as well.
@BlackStorm, Not quite. Only the hair will be at -7 and half str bonus to damage, the iterative attacks do not suffer that penalty and will just be at -2 to hit and full strength bonus to damage.
@BlackStorm, Not quite. Only the hair will be at -7 and half str bonus to damage, the iterative attacks do not suffer that penalty and will just be at -2 to hit and full strength bonus to damage.
Yup, that's what I meant, I wrote really bad: I meant the -7 was for hairs only, obviously.
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I am confused why you think you can use hair with spell combat when the FAQ you quoted specifically says you can't.
Its possible you misunderstood my intention or more correctly I didn't state what I meant by any means at all =).
If you use your hair and only your hair, with natural spell combat, you can attack with your hair as a natural weapon, as your only one, then deliver a spell through your hair, granting another attack with your hair.
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I am confused why you think you can use hair with spell combat when the FAQ you quoted specifically says you can't.
Its possible you misunderstood my intention or more correctly I didn't state what I meant by any means at all =).
If you use your hair and only your hair, with natural spell combat, you can attack with your hair as a natural weapon, as your only one, then deliver a spell through your hair, granting another attack with your hair.
It works with the hair attack because of the rule that any natural attack that is hand related is valid for spellcombat. The prehensile hair functions as a hand (and has been confirmed by the devs that it is a hand for spellcombat purposes) so it works just fine.
As for your second comment you are not quite correct there as well. You don't have to just use the hair, you can always use it with iterative attacks as well you just take the secondary attack penalties with it.
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There is a new magus arcana in Blood of the Moon, Natural Spell Combat i think its called that lets you use a natural attack as part of spell combat. This would allow you to attack with the hair as a primary weapon, at str 1.5x, and spell combat a spell for the same roll/damage.Incorrect, the arcana doesn't work that way.
First you can already use the hair with spellcombat normally without needing the arcana.Second, the purpose of that arcana is for using NON-hand based natural attacks with spellcombat (tentacles, gore, bite, wings, etc.)
Third, the Arcana does not undo the normal rules for natural attacks stating if they are used with iterative attacks they become secondary attacks and suffer those penalties as well.
@BlackStorm, Not quite. Only the hair will be at -7 and half str bonus to damage, the iterative attacks do not suffer that penalty and will just be at -2 to hit and full strength bonus to damage.
Spell Combat (Ex): At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.
Magus, Spell Combat: When using spell combat, do I specifically have to use the weapon in my other hand, or can I use a mixture of weapons (such as armor spikes and bites) so long as my casting hand remains free?
You specifically have to use the light or one-handed melee weapon in your other hand.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 04/05/13
So you can't use your hairs with spell combat.
It is not a full attack, so you can make only the attacks specified by the ability, those that you make with "light or one-handed melee weapon in your other hand."Nothing more.
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Thats where Natural Spell Combat comes in, "The magus can use his spell
combat class feature with a natural attack of his choice."I assumed this was how to get around that restriction.
You already can use a law attack or another attack associated with a hand.
What the arcana seem to change is that you can now use it with any form of natural attack.So, spellcombat with a bite, or a tail slap, or whatever kind of natural attack he can get.
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There is a new magus arcana in Blood of the Moon, Natural Spell Combat i think its called that lets you use a natural attack as part of spell combat. This would allow you to attack with the hair as a primary weapon, at str 1.5x, and spell combat a spell for the same roll/damage.Incorrect, the arcana doesn't work that way.
First you can already use the hair with spellcombat normally without needing the arcana.Second, the purpose of that arcana is for using NON-hand based natural attacks with spellcombat (tentacles, gore, bite, wings, etc.)
Third, the Arcana does not undo the normal rules for natural attacks stating if they are used with iterative attacks they become secondary attacks and suffer those penalties as well.
@BlackStorm, Not quite. Only the hair will be at -7 and half str bonus to damage, the iterative attacks do not suffer that penalty and will just be at -2 to hit and full strength bonus to damage.
Spell Combat (Ex): At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon...
You're information is out of date. When directly asked about Spellcombat and Prehensile hair with this quote
Her hair can manipulate objects (but not weapons) as dexterously as a human hand.I'd love it if this power wasn't excluded from the other hand ruling for spellcombat. It goes a HUGE way towards removing the MAD issues for Magi.
His answer was:
SKR Clarifying spellcombat and natural attacksSpell combat uses hands (a natural weapon that's part of that hand qualifies). There ya go.[/url]
Prehensile hair is called at as hand-like which is enough for use with Spellcombat.