Is it possible to make a gnome that does good consistent melee damage for the majority of its life from levels 1-12?
So 20pt build for Pathfinder Society. Since I will be playing from 1 to 12 (maybe more if they do higher level content) I will need to be decently effective at all levels or at least survive.
A group of friends wants to do a whole group of Gnomes. Which will either be fun or a complete catastrophe. There are casters abounding and one ranged character. However, someone needs to stand in front or in back and take the damage and deal the damage when they run out of spells (or it can't be enchanted). Since these are kind of naughty little gnomes so it pretty much rules out paladin.
Does anyone have any good suggestions for a melee gnome build?
I have been thinking along the lines of dervish dance and duelist, two-weapon fighting rogue/ninja and cavalier.
Any option that is particularly suited to small characters would be good.
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I've always thought that a gnomish hooked hammer could be awfully scary when built for a character that specialized in it. A fighter can grab weapon spec and eventually expand his crit range some, and it basically being a longsword on one side and shortsword on the other with a x3/x4 crit is pretty awesome.
Gnome Paladin! Maybe with weapon finesse, or maybe just regular sword and board and specialize on defense (shield focus, dodge, toughness + bonus to Con score + lay on hands to self as swift action) should give you a lot of staying power, and when you Smite Evil, you can use your bonus to Charisma as well.
And you can act as the party face, a decent healer, and carry a ranged weapon for back up artillery.
Plus there's always the option of the Small mounted knight on the Medium sized mount....
A druid isn't a bad choice, as your size has no effect on the size of your companion, and later wild shaping. Heck, you can fight on back of your companion. Pick a durable pet, like a dinosaur, and it can serve as a 'tank', and one that's replaceable if it dies. The pinch healing, summoning, and eventual buffs of playing a druid aren't half bad either. And even at low levels, you're about on part with a Cleric for melee combat, since you get medium armor and shields.
In my current party, I'm exactly that - started as a Barbarian (gnome's +2 con helps with the raging rounds and extra hp, plus the fast movement gives you the mobility of a medium-sizer) -- and dipped ranger to 3 for the extra skills, ability to use stealth (size bonus is nice), spell list (so I can use wands of CLW, Longstrider and Lead Blades -- yay!), favoured enemy and terrain, and the free feats (Fighting Style of 2-hander, free Endurance let me take Diehard, which barbarians desperately need). Full BAB in the dip, slight reduction of hp, but not too severe (3d12 becomes 3d10), and while ranger's not favoured class, it's more skill-eriffic than Barb anyway.
We had a medium paladin for a while and while raging, I was at least his equal (better when fighting goblinoids, less so if he was smiting). He had the AC in his field plate, but I did eventually score the coveted Mithral Breastplate, which helped. Plus, the inability to be flanked or caught flatfooted and the ability to tumble through threatened squares ends up working pretty darned well.
I play a gnome dragon shaman, and the one thing that really limits me is my speed. It's especially noticable because all the other PCs have a speed of 40! I've finally gotten boots of striding and springing, but they still leave me 10 feet slower per round, which really matters in wilderness campaigns.
So barbarian might be a really good bet.
A druid isn't a bad choice, as your size has no effect on the size of your companion, and later wild shaping...
Dang you for getting to MY idea first, Sunset__ ! Just want to add that if you're only going to 12th level that build idea gets relatively stronger. See Treantmonk's guide for details.
and dipped ranger to 3 for the extra skills, ability to use stealth
It`s worth pointing out:
ANYBODY CAN USE STEALTH / have the same maximum ranks in it per char. level.Having it as a Class Skill is just a +3 bonus. You can also gain it as a Class Skill via Trait with an extra +1.
Barbarians have enough Skill Ranks that they can max Stealth just as much as Rangers can.
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For your character, there`s no reason you can`t use `standard` warrior-type classes (ftr/barb),
you may just want to be a bit more focused than otherwise on finding `effective` builds (there are many),
along with having as effective melee stats as you can (probably meaning 17 STR before racial adjustment to 15 to start - Barbarian Rage and Weapon Focus will be helpful starting off),
and thus, having `dump stats` in other areas, namely INT/WIS/CHA),
but there is no reason you will not be able to deal with CL-appropriate threats:
the game is built to let you win without utter optimization.
For a build recommendation, I think the Bardiche in APG is a great Pole-Arm with nice base damage and decent Crit Range (there`s an Exotic Pole-Arm called the Fauchard in Undead Revisited that is even better Crit-wise and has the Trip Quality, but it`s an extra Feat for proficiency). Reach Weapon means you have to move 5` less to attack the same opponent, assuaging your slower speed (Barbarian gives you `normal` speed anyways) ...2-Handed doesn`t need many Feats to do it`s main job (and automatically makes the most of your STR), letting you take things leveraging the AoO`s you will get, along with other `Tactical Utility` stuff besides vanilla DPR bumps. ...But this isn`t any different than what a Medium character would do.
I am currently playing a Grippli paladin in another campaign, and the big surprise for me playing a small sized strength based fighter was how much combat gear you can carry. Full armor and a plethora of weapons with 14 strength is not a problem with the 3/4's carrying capacity and 1/2 weight. Biggest issue would be a rope if I carried one. My recommendation is to multi-class into something that gives stealth as a class skill for the extra +3 and attempt to sneak up on things to start combats no matter what class you are playing, if your group is fine with holding back while you fandangle yourself closer to start the encounter, you don't have to worry about your speed. Also, don't mess around with weapon finesse and such, just grit your teeth and go two hander + power attack and just accept the 3-4 points less each attack you're doing.
Hi, I'm a Gnome and I'm a frontline melee character.
I am of course not PFS Legal, having been made a looooong time ago (I think using Beta Rules with a smattering of 3.5) but it gives you an idea of what can be done.
It shouldn't be too hard, really. Just don't fall into the weapon finesse trap.
Respectable str and power attack will have you performing admirably in melee, and definately pulling your weight in an all gnome party. (Sure, you'll fall behind a human in this regard, but that's not really that big a deal.) A fighter or paladin duelist can amass a flat bonus to damage that'll make the smaller dice insignificant. With +3 from weapon spec/training or +5 from smite 1/day coupled with precise strike... along with +2 or 3 str and power attack you'll be doing decent damage.
A straight rogue will do fantasitcally too, as you have no penalty to your sneak attacks. TWF is the way to go, and the "swashbuckler" varient is nice for a bit of melee kick. However, without a flanking buddy or a d10 hit die you may have some trouble holding the frontline all by yourself, and you'll be relying on surprise rounds and high initiative to land those sneak attacks.
Calavier's I've always found rather lackluster. I REALLY love the teamwork feats, but they seem to have their place in a more melee-orientated group.
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I'd say cavalier. He'll deal less damage than a medium cavalier, but will be able to charge more often.
A bard should be fine, too.
Another option would be summoner. The eidolon is a pretty strong melee combatant.
Gnome cavaliers are awesome and can do ridiculous damage.
I would recommend order of the sword, as at 8th you can start adding your mounts strength to damage, which combined with spirited charge is just sick.
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A gnome can be a great front line fighter. With a twenty point buy you should go:
Strength 16 (18 preracial) 17 points
Dexterity 12 2 points
Constitution 15 (13 preracial) 3 points
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 10
Charisma 10 (8 preracial) -2 points
I would say go with cavalier for the mobility boost and sick charging damage or barbarian for the boost from raging and fast movement. Use your favored class bonuses for hit points, because your lower weapon damage will probably add a round or two to each combat, and you need to make up the difference in the amount of damage you take. Go two-handed weapon and you will do 2 less damage per hit, but you will hit just as often and have slightly better AC. Also, as has been posted above, your gear will weigh less proportionally, so encumbrance should not be an issue. You should look carefully at racial traits and feats, because there are several that give very nice bonuses against enemies larger than you, which is most of them.
Well I have been thinking on 3 builds following some of the advice in the thread. I want to avoid Barbarian because I have an 11th level barbarian and I would like something a bit different. I need to avoid casters like bard and summoner because everyone else is likely to be one)
The first two are strength based and using the following stat array
Gnome Cavalier
STR 16 (18 17pts)
DEX 12 (2pts)
CON 16 (14 5pts)
INT 10
WIS 10
CH 9 (-4 Points)
Cavalier 11 Order of the Sword
1 Mounted Combat
1 (Teamwork Feat) ???
3 Ride by attack
5 Spirited Charge
6 (Cavalier bonus )Power Attack
7 Improved Overrun
8 Trample (Order of the sword feat)
9 Trick Riding
11 Indomitable Mount
Or I could do Fighter 2/Cavalier 9 Order of the sword
1 Mounted Combat
1 (fighter feat) Ride by Attack
2 (Fighter Feat) Spirited Charge
3 Power Attack
3 (teamwork feat) ????
5 Boon Companion
7 Indomitable Mount
8 (Cavalier Bonus Feat) Improved Overrun
9 Trick Riding
10 Trample (order of the sword feat)
11 Greater Overrun
The other option is completely Different and kind of goes against some of the advise but I think it still works.
Gnome Fighter/Duelist (either weapon master or free hand fighter)
Fighter 7/ Duelist 4 or Fighter 6/Duelist 5
STR 13 (15 7pts)
DEX 16 (10pts)
CON 14 (2pts)
INT 14 (5pts)
WIS 10
CHA 9 (-4pts)
I could dump my wisdom and lower my int a bit to start with 18 dex but that seems a bit harsh on the penalites) I will need to get a +4 int Headband and +4 or hopefully +6 Dex belt. Ideally I would get Celestial armor but things get pricy. Also gloves of dueling if I go Weapon master or normal fighter.
1 Weapon Finesse
1 (fighter) Power Attack
2 Dancing Dervish
2 (fighter) Dodge
3 Weapon Focus Scimitar
4 (fighter) Weapon Specialization Scimitar
5 Mobility
6 (fighter) combat expertise
7 Side Step
9 Improved side step
11 step up
and dipped ranger to 3 for the extra skills, ability to use stealthIt`s worth pointing out:
ANYBODY CAN USE STEALTH / have the same maximum ranks in it per char. level.
Yes - I should have been more clear:
+3 bonus to stealth, +bonus in favoured terrain and being untrackable in forests..
and dipped ranger to 3 for the extra skills, ability to use stealthIt`s worth pointing out:
ANYBODY CAN USE STEALTH / have the same maximum ranks in it per char. level.Yes - I should have been more clear:
+3 bonus to stealth, +bonus in favoured terrain and being untrackable in forests..
To be honest though, with the racial +4 from small size, he's probably making the cut as well as any ranger. It could always stand to be better, but as a frontliner that shouldnt be his priority.
Excellent Advice
Hmm, perhaps it's time I rethought my stance on mounted combat. That looks pretty potent.
Still, I'd check with your DM if mounted combat is going to be the go in your campaign or not. (Though as a small size character it isnt REALLY a problem)
Out of curiosity, what would you take as a mount?
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if you go Weapon Finess and don't want to buy a 13 STR, cause 13 str is really 15 str cost for a gnome (i.e. if you want to buy STR 12 or 14 at most, for a post racial of STR 10 or 12, AND if you don't give a rat's behind about cleave, improved bull rush and other Power Attack chain feats, then consider Piranha Strike from the Sargava Companion book (grants same damage as Power Attack, but instead of STR 13 prereq it has Weapon Finesse prereq)
Piranha Strike only works with light weapons. I restate my suggestion of a druid, possibly multiclassed with Barbarian. You can take the Boon Companion feat to make up for any lost companion levels for multiclassing, and if you go with any of the shaman Archetypes, you can shape at +2 level in certain forms. And really, Beast Form III is the main one you're wanting to go for anyways. All the elemental forms are generally more situational.