Casting, But In What Language?

[Odion]

Ok so I was just wondering what language do you speak when you cast spells? do you use a magical language or a language of your choice on your character sheet? Also if you do use a magical language is it the same magical language used over all spell casters?

[LazarX]

You speak the language of magic. It's like mathmatics... it's universal.

Now of course when you capture a magician's spellbook, you've got to get past his personal writing style and decipher his cribnotes that's what the spellcraft check is for. And that's assuming he did not make any special effort to encrypt or disguise his writing.

[Odion]

Ok thank you for clearing that up for me :)

[cp]

I don't believe thats correct. By memory descriptions for various languages allude to 'runes of creation' in that language.

My interpretation is that language is a tool, and each race has uses its language to manipulate (cast, complete, activate, target) magic.

[Selgard]

As far as the rules are concerned (and this was put into the Rules forum) there isn't any adjustment on a spellcraft check if the two people don't share a language but one is trying to identify the spells of another. The same holds true for scrolls and also for wizard spellbooks, and identifying/using said spell books. You DO have to decipher that other wizard's shorthand but it says nothing about having to share their specific language.

As far as RAW goes, magic is magic. Languages are a whole other kettle of worms.

-S

[Loengrin]

cp wrote:

I don't believe thats correct. By memory descriptions for various languages allude to 'runes of creation' in that language.

My interpretation is that language is a tool, and each race has uses its language to manipulate (cast, complete, activate, target) magic.

And I believe he is correct, since comprehend languages cannot help you decipher a scroll or write it in your own spellbook, while spellcraft and read magic helps... So it's the same language for everyone ;)

The thing is every wizard has his own "signature", a way unique to him to cast spell, made of whom was his master and his own habit for casting, that's why you have to "decipher" (adapt is a better term I think) the spell of another wizard to your own "signature"... :)

[ralantar]

latin of course!

[LazarX]

ralantar wrote:

latin of course!

The Ars Magica forum is that way -------------->

[Jeffery Keown 232]

In my homebrew campaigns there are two magical languages, Dharzooni and Draconic. Spells can be written in other languages, but take much more space to get the same point across correctly. Thus, most wizards learn on or the other, and spellbooks are usually Dharzooni, though a few Draconic ones have bubbled to the surface.

That's in HERO System. In Pathfinder, we don't bother with a specific language. We assume that, as suggested above, there is a magical notation (similar to math). You either can read a spellbook (ie you have spellcraft or read magic) or you can't.

[cp]

Loengrin wrote:

cp wrote:

I don't believe thats correct. By memory descriptions for various languages allude to 'runes of creation' in that language.

My interpretation is that language is a tool, and each race has uses its language to manipulate (cast, complete, activate, target) magic.

And I believe he is correct, since comprehend languages cannot help you decipher a scroll or write it in your own spellbook, while spellcraft and read magic helps... So it's the same language for everyone ;)

The thing is every wizard has his own "signature", a way unique to him to cast spell, made of whom was his master and his own habit for casting, that's why you have to "decipher" (adapt is a better term I think) the spell of another wizard to your own "signature"... :)

I quite agree that comp languages is *not* needed. I figure that regardless of the language being spoken, the spellcraft allows you to how magic is being manipulated.

Many spells say things like "as part of the spell, you tell the target to perform X action." Many spells are listed as language dependent - ie the spell fails if the victim doesn't understand.

Under my interpretation you manipulate magic via language. The silent feat allows you to do so without language.

Finally, I have played in modules where it was necessary to make a linguistics roll to find the spell in the book, or hidden in the painting.

I don't think it matters which interpretation is <ahem> write - we both agree on the game mechanic.

[LazarX]

cp wrote:

Many spells say things like "as part of the spell, you tell the target to perform X action." Many spells are listed as language dependent - ie the spell fails if the victim doesn't understand.

Under my interpretation you manipulate magic via language. The silent feat allows you to do so without language.

Language dependent spells are a different kind of beast. These spells have an added component to them... the empowerment of ordinary speech to enforce a compulsion. For the same reason as applies to Bard spells, these spells obviously can not be cast silently. And they do require that the speech be understood by the target.

Also remember that the text of a spell in the spellbook isn't necessarily what you utter when you cast. the text of the spell is the complete spell, what you utter is merely a verbal triggering component. That's why Power Word spells take up the space that they do... most of the spellbook text is what you need to set up the spell matrix that's triggered by the one word, while not languge dependent, also can not be uttered silently.

[Odion]

Ok so if magic is a language does that mean if you cast a language dependant spell on a target that also cast magic (therefore understanding magic) will the spell take effect as you both speak and understand it?

[LazarX]

Odion wrote:

Ok so if magic is a language does that mean if you cast a language dependant spell on a target that also cast magic (therefore understanding magic) will the spell take effect as you both speak and understand it?

No... because the language dependent part is not the language of magic which is not a language of conversation, but a language of commanding reality.

[Kolokotroni]

I generally use Greek as my 'magic words' language. As a fluent speaker its fun to come up with phrases that make sense for the spells I am casting, and it sounds sufficiently foreign and archaic to everyone else that it works to enhance that aspect of my characters actions.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

I'm learning portuguese irl so thats what I use. :-). It sounds cool and adds flavor.

[Regrs]

Kolokotroni wrote:

I generally use Greek as my 'magic words' language. As a fluent speaker its fun to come up with phrases that make sense for the spells I am casting, and it sounds sufficiently foreign and archaic to everyone else that it works to enhance that aspect of my characters actions.

Rofl'ed on that one Kolokotroni, but it makes sense in sessions with foreign players but at sessions with Greek players you might be misunderstood for trying to translate the game, like another attempt back in the 3rd edition of D&D.

Remember "Επιθεση Ευκαιριας"...

[ProfPotts]

Quote:

Ok so I was just wondering what language do you speak when you cast spells? do you use a magical language or a language of your choice on your character sheet? Also if you do use a magical language is it the same magical language used over all spell casters?

Some of the actual RAW for this is in a weird place...

'Tongues: In times of stress or unease, you speak in tongues. Pick one of the following languages: Abyssal, Aklo, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Ignan, Infernal, or Terran. Whenever you are in combat, you can only speak and understand the selected language. This does not interfere with spellcasting, but it does apply to spells which are language dependent...' (APG page 44, in the section on Oracles Curses)

So, you can usually cast spells in any language you can speak (rather than some other 'magical language'), and they work the same regardless of which language you happen to choose. By RAW, none of this effects attempts to identify the spell you're casting.

Written magical notation is a different kettle of fish altogether, it seems.

[leo1925]

Regrs wrote:

Kolokotroni wrote:

I generally use Greek as my 'magic words' language. As a fluent speaker its fun to come up with phrases that make sense for the spells I am casting, and it sounds sufficiently foreign and archaic to everyone else that it works to enhance that aspect of my characters actions.

Rofl'ed on that one Kolokotroni, but it makes sense in sessions with foreign players but at sessions with Greek players you might be misunderstood for trying to translate the game, like another attempt back in the 3rd edition of D&D.

Remember "Επιθεση Ευκαιριας"...

Oh yes i remember that.....

So to get that straight both you and Kolokotroni are greek?

[Regrs]

Quote:

Oh yes i remember that.....

So to get that straight both you and Kolokotroni are greek?

I am, not sure about Kolokotroni but I suppose so.

[leo1925]

Regrs wrote:

Quote:

Oh yes i remember that.....

So to get that straight both you and Kolokotroni are greek?

I am, not sure about Kolokotroni but I suppose so.

I am using spoilers so that i don't threadjack.

to Regrs:

Ah it's good to find another greek player of PF especially on the forums. Μηπως κατα τυχη μενεις Θεσσαλονικη;

[godsDMit]

Odion wrote:

Ok so I was just wondering what language do you speak when you cast spells? do you use a magical language or a language of your choice on your character sheet? Also if you do use a magical language is it the same magical language used over all spell casters?

Binary. ;)

[SlimGauge]

godsDMit wrote:

Binary. ;)

Except witches, who use hexidecimal

This message brought to you by the number "f".

[godsDMit]

SlimGauge wrote:

godsDMit wrote:

Binary. ;)

Except witches, who use hexidecimal

This message brought to you by the number "f".

Very nice.

[fluffsorcerer]

I don't think Pathfinder magic is bound into a single language like the true-speak of Earthsea, rather it is a certain mode or manner of speech. Think of a spell like a folk melody with lyrics differing from culture to culture. The individual words don't matter when making a spell craft check, because they each fit into a certain "pattern" which all casters recognize as forming the basis of that spell. A spell may have many different variations, utilizing wildly different gestures and words, but every combination of those words carry's the import of that spell. So, if a human cleric sees an elven priestess cast a healing spell by muttering a prayer in elvish, he can recognize it even though he casts his spells in celestial, because both versions of the spell have the same "rhythm" which he can recognize through his formal training in spellcraft. Following this theory, every tradition of spellcasters would have their own particular method of casting a given spell, bringing about the same results. Bards sing snatches of gnomish ballads which have lyrics fitting the particular "pattern" of a spell, while old elvish wizards chant old elvish litanies, and their human counterparts use ancient draconic formulas. Each variation of a spell might even have subtly different effects depending upon which tradition it comes from. The elvish formula for a fireball spell may create a burst of blue flames, while the most common human variation creates orange and crimson ones, shot through with sparks of gold. A wizard's magic missile may be a neatly formed orb of force, while a sorcerer's might be a sizzling, ragged bolt of energy. These effects allow casters to identify the particular method someone is using to cast a spell, and might produce some snobbery on the part of adherents to individual methodologies. "Ugh, you're using Morgandon's imprecation to the wall of searing flame? Gnomish magic is so common and slap-dash!" This idea also explains how sorcerers can learn the same spells as wizards can without the more erudite mage's reliance on arcane notation. A sorcerer has an innate sense of which sorts of words, gestures, and ingredients form which sorts of spells, and they hone that sense through trial, error, and personal experimentation. Wizards have no need for this instinct because their method of magic use has more or less "cracked the code" on which kinds of components make up which spells. Their notation takes most of the guess work out of spell crafting, getting easily reproducible results. Sorcerers instead use the spark of the natural savant, and thus their spells may have more personal show-effects representing their inner natures. But now I'll stop before I let my pet theories run away with me. :)

[Frankthedm]

For D&D games styles, I've always viewed them as Audio combination locks. They always sound foreign to the hearer.

[John Templeton]

I thought magic used Dragonic, why wizards getvit as a bonus language.

[mrofmist]

Odion wrote:

Ok so I was just wondering what language do you speak when you cast spells? do you use a magical language or a language of your choice on your character sheet? Also if you do use a magical language is it the same magical language used over all spell casters?

It used to be that Draconic was the language of Magic, it's what it was written in and how it was cast.

[Bwang]

Per RAW, I do not find a specific language, but see language dependant effects mentioned.

[Troubleshooter]

Language is irrelevant. Identifying a spell operates solely on whether you can see the caster -- if you cannot see the spell being cast, you cannot identify the spell. Not knowing the language the caster uses does not prevent you from identifying a spell, and knowing the language does not guarantee success.

In 3.5, Draconic was mentioned in the flavortext to be the written language of magic. That is no longer the case in Pathfinder, if I recall correctly.

You will further notice that Draconic is an optional selectable language. A Wizard gets Scribe Scroll for free, and he can choose not to take Draconic.

So magic is either universal or whatever the caster uses, but either way, it doesn't matter.