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I couldn't resist. Sorry I couldn't be of any actual help.
I'm currently playing a Mystic Theurge myself, though I'm not sure I would have bothered if I'd been limited to the material you listed. The MT is an odd, lonely beast. I'm not sure what to tell you.
I would strongly consider a charisma based spellcaster (bard, sorceror, oracle, or summoner), and then investing heavily in the Use Magic Device skill.
Are you expected to carry the healing role for the party?
Hello. I am more often DM than player, and never have played cleric (except NPC, but it is not the same thing), nor a mystic theurge, nor played at very high level.
...
<the 4 members party should have no caster except me...>
I hesitate ...
You darn well should hesitate. A 4-character high/epic level game where there is one PC who is both the cleric and the wizard?
I'd hesitate to agree to those conditions, personally. What are the other three planning on playing?
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1. CoT caps out at level 11-12. So you will not get high enough for the mystic theurge to start paying off and thats around level 12. Even if you keap playing to level 20. It's a long time from level 4 to 12. As they are the dead levels for power level of mystic theurge.
2. CoT is very social intreaction heavy. And Cha is inportant for every book of this AP. Some books more so then others.
3. If your going to be the only caster in the party. For this AP Bard is hands down the one you should be playing. There are so meny parts of this AP. That are none standard where a bard shines and solves problems no other class can.
4. In this AP you will want restoration. We where hit with some kind of stat damage or level drain in every book.
If you still want to do mystic theurge.
Cleric/Sorcerer Wis/Cha
Focus Cha>Wis>Con>Dex>Int>Str
Cleric3/Sorcerer7/mystic theurge 10
Is the best I can think of.
My top picks for casters in this AP.
1.Bard
2.Oracle
3.Sorcerer
4.Cleric (Casting with some Cha.)
5.Witch
I'd also recommend strait cleric, but it you want a mage like role just pick the more magicky domains. Mgic, rune, knowledge come to mind, but there could be better. If you were planning on playing a blasty type Mage then pick domains like fire, storm, stuff like that.
I've played a mystic theurge. The concept is great, but the mechanics fail. You'll have a lot of versatility and spells, but not be very good at anything.
Also the Mage powers for are based on wizard level, not caster level. Same holds true for specialists and generalists and clerics for that matter.
Ex:
Clr3/wiz3/mt10
Channels as a third level cleric
Uses wizard speciality powers(whatever they may be) as a third level wizard
However the only point of the class is you do cast wiz and clr spells as a 13th level caster. which is pretty cool, but that all you get out of the class.
Personally I'd much rather be a powerful sorcerer or wizard with a high use magic device skill and several healing wands/scrolls/staves.
Edit: in hind sight you've got a pretty good build. Since you're starting at high level it could be a lot of fun. I would hate to have to play the mt at lower levels, but it'll rock ate higher levels. I would play the MT were I in your situation. Though I'd max out the spell penetration feat tree and I might not worry about armor too much. If you're on the front lines than the party is about to wipe. Between wiz and cleric spell casting you can get your ac to astronomical levels without actually wearing armor.
I couldn't resist. Sorry I couldn't be of any actual help.^^, bah picture is nice!
I seldom play as player, surely the only time before long. And i don't play as often as 20 years ago.
I will carry alone the healing role for the party. And i will carry alone the role of caster... A rogue, a fighter, a monk...My friends told me it is not very "exciting" to play a cleric, and i like wizard. So i thought to the MT.
I know my PC will have a role of support, and his action in fight never decisive, but i like the idea to be "swiss army knife", with social skills to play in Westcrown.And we play less organized, no leader...
One of my builds was
Race Tiefling Oni-spawn +2 Str +2 Wis -2 Cha
Str 14 (12 +2 race) Dex 12 Con 12 Int 16 Sag 17 (15 +2 race) Cha 10 (12 -2 race)
trait magical knack: +2 CL cleric
Lvl 1: cleric 1 of Calistria (Charm, Trickery)
feat Fiendish Heritage
Lvl 2: cleric 2
Lvl 3: cleric 2 / wizard Enchantment 1 (opposition: abjuration, divination or evocation) - bonded object
feat: Arcane Armor training
Lvl 4: cleric 3 / wizard 1
Ability: +1 Sag
Lvl 5: cleric 3 / wizard 2
feat: toughness or Combat Casting
bonded object: wand
Lvl 6: C3 / W3
Lvl 7: C3/W3/MT1
Feat: Still SpellAfter, ability for Intelligence
Feats: Arcane Armor Mastery, Spell penetration, Greater Spell penetration, Heighten Spell
Bonded object Staff (of healing)
To finish C3/W7/MT10
I'd maximize wizard levels and not specialize. You only get the low level powers anyway and hand of the acolyte is very useful at any level. My 2c
Clerics may not be as 'exciting' as Wizards but they are Clerics and can cast in heavy armor and get Cleric spells.
Honestly? If I had my heart set on being a mystic theurge, I'd start off with Cleric 1/Wizard 7, and then finish off with two more levels of cleric and 10 levels of mystic theurge. That way, I'd still feel like a wizard with a splash of cleric, but at least I'd be relatively useful from level 1 to 8.
Str 9 Dex 16 (14 +2 race) Con 14 Int 19 (17 +2 race) Wis 13 Cha 8 (10 -2 race)
trait magical knack: +2 CL wizard
Lvl 1: cleric 1 of Calistria (Charm, Trickery)
feat Fiendish Heritage
Lvl 2: wizard 1
Lvl 3: wizard 2
feat: Craft Wondrous Item
Lvl 4: wizard 3
Ability: +1 Int
Lvl 5: wizard 4
feat: whatever
bonded object: whatever
Lvl 6: wizard 5 (bonus feat: Craft Arms & Armor)
Lvl 7: wizard 6
Feat: Spell Penetration
Lvl 8: wizard 7
Lvl 9: cleric 2
Feat: Greater Spell Penetration
Lvl 10: cleric 3
After, ability for Intelligence
Feats: Fiendish Heritage, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Craft Wondrous Item
To finish C3/W7/MT10
As long as you go in not expecting to be "optimized", a swiss army theurge sounds like it could be fun. Personally, finding synergy in something like Oracle (cha-based casting) and Sorcerer (cha-based casting) makes it less ability intensive, even though at 12th level you'd only be slinging 4th level spells (arcane and divine) while your single-classed casters have 6th level spells.
As long as you know that going in, have fun!
Oracle 6 / Sorcerer 4 / Mystic Theurge 10
would give you 8th level Oracle spells and 7th level sorcerer spells
or
Oracle 4 / Sorcerer 6 / Mystic Theurge 10
would reverse it for 7th level oracle spells & 8th level sorcerer spells
Both Oracles & Sorcerers benefit from having thematic decisions, so you could complement the mystery & the bloodline.
Cure is not a problem for MT: wizard spells can be turned spontaneously in Cure,
Pretty sure you can't do that.
And that the Witch could "ruin" a campaign... or be useless.
Compared to a Wizard or Cleric?
And when you can build an eidolon at level 10 which has 5 attacks at full BAB with Str more than 25, why would you play a fighter?
The Eidolon has 3/4 BAB, at best. And probably because Dismissal is gotten at 9th level.
A friend told me of a template of Anti-paladin/Oracle Lore (Revelation: Sidestep Secret)/vampire... a nightmare for AC and Save...
In an Evil campaign, who cares?
Cleric 5/ Bard 5/ Mystic Theurge 10
You can wear armor and cast spells, you have useful spells on both sides of low level -- which is good because that's all you'll cast for a while, you have bardic performance to help shore you and your allies up, Bard and cleric will both be providing Decent BAB at lower levels meaning you'll have something to do when not casting spells. Skills -- yeah you have skills -- and the ability to use those skills at the point it's going to matter most, and you'll get double duty out of your performance skill (I recommend oratory) keeping you useful in situations where a blade or spell won't work.
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Since you cannot use the APG or CM:
Cleric 5/ Wizard 5/ Mystic Theurge 10
Get the Arcane Armor Training and Mastery feats then go for a mithral breastplate. You need to focus on buffs from your cleric spells, and battlefield control for wizard spells. There are some low level wizard spells that stay useful a long time, such as Grease or Glitterdust.
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I have played mystic theurges...they are well a long road to power.
I do like them. for feats, see if the GM will allow "Practiced Spell caster" from 3.5.
+4 to your effective spell caster level, so you can cast a magic missle spell, and have your caster level equal your hit dice.
I would be a fan of 3 lvel cleric / 3rd level wizard and then do 10 levels of mystic theurge.
you start to see your 3rd level spells at 8th level, and 4th level spells at 10 level. then you begin to get some good spells.
Good spells- buff spells for the party.
Good spells - summon monster spells.
you will excell at being the parties support system.
Wands are your friend.
Oh a neat trick. use a raven familiar to deliver your cure spells.
also, use spectral hand spell, and arcane eye spell. Then you can deliver magic while you are in another room.
This may be campaign specific, I liked having spells like detect invisibiility, Dark vision, Invisibility purge etc.
I can think of some more things..... good luck and have fun.
Oh one last thing....spell focus conjuration augment summoning, and also spell penetraition.
I had a blast with Craft wonderous object.
I guess that is all for now i hope it helps.
Good spell combo- haste- prayer- slow- bless- curse
Hi -- A few comments... (And, for the record, I do like the idea of using Bard to get your arcane requirement, due to the fact that charisma is useful for clerics and the light armour -- I'd say use Magus, but you can't go UM)
Anyhow...Getting to it:
1) Why i could be interested by "armor":
The best fight of my player are often when they "smash the monster" quickly, so each round my PC will use for his defense will be "one round more of damage to heal": my PC should act as booster or battlefield controller in the first round, except when he needs to save his life.
Armor don't need round to be ready!
Magic Vestment has a spell duration by Hour.
One more advantage is that a woman (my PC) in armor is less a "natural target" than one in robe!!! ^^
To end, the less spells in defence, the more in boost and attack, so less round to kill monster, so less damage to cure...
Actually, in a world where people can hurl fire and lightning from their fingertips, intelligent enemies who see a group of adventurers coming would probably target the woman in robes over anything else.
Having said that, if you're a bard, you get to use any light armour without arcane penalty -- and as a cleric you are proficient in medium armour. Since Mithral Medium armour counts as light (as long as you have medium proficiency) - a bard can cast in a mithral breastplate without spell failure without using any feats or swift actions.
Now, if you really want to go Wizard (and the bonded object certainly makes that attractive), and don't want to use the Arcane Armour Training feat, then you should *at the very least* get yourself a light shield or buckler -- if you get them made of mithral, you have 0 arcane failure -- you still have a free hand to cast (though you give up the shield AC in the round) -- and you can use magic vestment to boost it, when you get the spell. (For your own self, use Mage Armour, it also lasts hours per level and gives you the equivalent of a Chain Shirt made of Force). It's a level 1 spell that always gets you an armour bonus of 4, so totally worth Wand-ing. (Also, Shield of Faith don't suck, but that's a different issue).
2) why "touch attack"
One spell is for me basic for MT: Spectral hand!!! And i think i will invest in a wand of Spectral Hand to have ALWAYS a Spectral Hand ready in dungeons.
Through Spectral Hand, you can cast all touch attack of 4th level or less, profane or divine... and touch at safe distance.
Like the very good Shocking Grasp, Touch of Idiocy, Inflict, Poison or Bestow Curse... and all the spontaneus Cure spell of course.
True, but it also gets you right into the line of fire, as it were -- especially if you're not going to have an AC (since you sure aren't going to have the HPs)... Plus, unless you have a high point buy, you're going to have issues with your stats. You need a high WIS and INT for casting, a decent CHA for channels, and decent CON for surviving the low HD. Then, you need DEX for ranged touch and AC. You should consider taking Weapon Finesse, which applies to touches - so you don't also need STR. Also, remember that if your spectral hands get killed, you don't get the hp back, so you might be bleeding yourself to pull your trick (not to mention the fact that as a level 2 spell, each combat you try this in costs you at least 90 gold (assuming it lasts 3 minutes or less and nobody kills the hand, either because they don't want to get hit by spells anymore or because it's on the edge of a fireball or other spell) -- at least until you can make the wand yourself, which halves the cost, but still.
3) why Bonded object
The interest is to transform it in a wand at 5th CL (i.e wand of Spectral Hand for instance), in a Rod after (i.e Rod of Quicken/Silent), and after in a staff (i.e of Healing or Life)... without take any feat.
Actually, I thought this was because it scales (letting you cast any spell in your spellbook) rather than a familiar, which is dependant on your wizard level - and didn't even think about the fact that you can craft the item without needing any additional feats -- however, your reason works too.
4) why weapon and good Str
at low level, with longspear or glaive, you can use "aid another action" + tactical position for Flanking: it is always a good deal to aid the specialist of fight and give them up to +4 attack bonus.
And with whip (Calistria), you can disarm or trip at 3 squares for 1 gp.
Again, if you try for this, you need high attributes in every stat - unless you get a 40-point buy, something's got to give.... Plus, again, you're putting your own fragile self very near thigns that can smash you into wee bits. Now, if you really want to follow this path, I would again strongly recommend Weapon Finesse -- especially since the whip is a Finesseable weapon.
Familiars are at best *partially* dependent on wizard level -- the rest of the scales with your character level (HP, BAB, Save throws, skill use, etc).
I really recommend bard over wizard too incidentally.
Familiars are at best *partially* dependent on wizard level -- the rest of the scales with your character level (HP, BAB, Save throws, skill use, etc).
True -- the powers aren't really all that important (though speak with Master *does* help a fair bit) -- but beyond that, I suppose only the natural armour and int are really tied to your level, which really isn't much. I still like the idea of getting an extra Greater Dispel (or something) without the hassle of having memorized it that morning.
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Multiclassing and Prestige Classes already makes characters less impressive as is, its just a good option to prevent MAD. I personally prefer playing a class straight to 20, something Pathfinder encouraged over 3.5. It may not be twinked out to be the best choice, but it works. Also, he can become a Mystic Theurge at Level 9 I do believe.Oracle/Sorcerer seems like a strong combo into Mystic Theurge.If not being able to cast spells over 2nd level until 10th level, having a bunch of class level dependent abilities that never increase in power seems powerful to you well, um thats your issue I guess. About the only strength that build has is both classes use the same attribute.And at tenth level he can get his first third level spells.
Kneecapping till level 8 can be dealt with, I can't see it till level 10.
Yep and know you know why I don't recomend this prc. I have played 2. One time starting out at high leve. One time starting out at 1st. The mid level pain of this prc is enough for me to avoid it at all cost.
Race Tiefling Oni-spawn +2 Str +2 Wis -2 Cha
Really 14 end STR Stop Breaks hit them hard.
You are a caster that sound like range touch guy.
STR 10 at Best More CHA for burst and Social skill cause is sound like you are the face as well. Stay away from Save DC Spell due to the fact mast spell that have will be 2 level lower than a straight caster. If have to then spam the spell at them. I like the idea Summoning with this build with only 4 players set up flanks and blocker for friend and mass buff.
List out the skill you want and or need.
Heal, Spell Craft, Dip, Know REL, Planes, Arcane, History(need for this path), nobility (this one also).
Craft Wondrous Item. Stat item, Resistance, Pearls Power.
Wand Craft . Scribe Scroll.
Never ever run out of spell. With 2 class, Scroll, Pearls and Wands this should not be hard. That is your role to always have the spell that is need. I to wound go bonded Item.
Straight Wizard. No specialty makes the most out of bonded item.
Use the Feat to Cast in armor.
I really also like Bard /Cleric idea as well.
No, Sorc/Oracle is just a terrible combination for MT, the only thing worse would be bard/inquis or dragonrider/pally or ranger.
Actually, it works just fine as long as you have access to the appropriate 3.5 feats to make it viable.
Some advice for mystic theruges in general:
1) Magical Knack is critical for a mystic theurge; the loss in caster level hurts worse than the loss in spell progression. You need to decide from the start which of your two caster classes you favor and plan accordingly. Also, minimize the levels taken outside of that favored class, mystic theurge, or another prestige class that grants full spell progression in that class (loremaster is usually a decent choice).
2) Maximize your versatility of spells. More than just about any other character, the mystic theurge benefits from taking the item crafting feats. Scribe Scroll and Craft Wand are almost must haves, with Craft Wondrous Item close behind. Spontaneous casters gain less of a benefit than prepared casters, since their versatility is more limited, but using Scribe Scroll and Craft Wand mainly for utility spells like buffs, healing, and simple attack spells lets you conserve your spell slots for more critical circumstances.
3) Mystic theurges work best in a party with other multiclassed primary casters (arcane archer, arcane trickster, eldritch knight, rage prophet, etc.) or without primary (9 spell level) casters. They also require, like most multiclassed casters, the understanding that you will not be as "powerful" in the middle levels as a single-classed primary caster from about 5th-10th character levels (sorcerer/oracle extends that "awkward" period even longer). This completely turns off may players, since that's the point where casters really start to dominate many games.
Some more specific advice from a thread from last year:
There's been some discussion on whether or not a mystic theurge is "viable" during play. The concern is mostly voiced regarding levels 5-9, and especially 5-7. So, as opposed to general statements, I'm inviting the rest of the community to discuss specific cases and circumstances.
Some ground rules:
This is NOT a comparison between the mystic theurge and a single classed cleric, druid, sorcerer, or wizard. If your main complaint is that the mystic theurge isn't as "powerful" as a single classed caster in that class's strength, then you're missing the point behind the concept of the mystic theurge, which is versatility.
The discussion is on the mystic theurge using the official Pathfinder RPG rules, 15 Point Buy, as documented in the Core Rulebook and associated resources (download page). If you deviate from the official rules (for example, restrict availability/crafting of magic items, copying spells, and/or change the wealth by level guidelines, use 3.5 or other rule variants, etc.), please specify exactly how you deviate and what effect that deviation has on characters. Note that I consider the biggest downfall to the mystic theurge (as with any multiclassed caster) the hit in caster level, so I use traits and always choose Magical Knack ("... Pick a class when you gain this trait--your caster level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn't increase your caster level higher than your current Hit Dice.")
This is not a CharOps discussion, so don't bash a particular "build" simply because it's not as "efficient/powerful" as possible. The main focus is a character that can contribute in most situations and shine in at least a few (i.e, "viable"), not simply maximizing effectiveness in a single activity. In particular, the characters I'm including to start the discussion are developed from my character concepts and take into account progression from 1st level, as well as preparing for future progression based on the concept.
Dwarf Cleric (Torag) 3/Transmuter 3
14 Str (13 +1 enhancement), 10 Dex, 14 Con (12 +2 race), 15 Int (14 +1 advancement), 16 Wis (14 +2 race), 8 Cha (10 -2 race)
Racial Traits: +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha; Medium Size; Speed 20 ft, not reduced by medium/heavy armor/load; Darkvision 60 ft; +4 AC vs. Giants; +2 Appraise checks for metal/stone items; +1 attack bonus vs. Orcs, Goblinoids; +2 saves vs. poison, spells, spell-like abilities; +4 CMD vs. bull rush, trip; Stonecunning; Proficient with battleaxes, heavy picks, warhammers; "Dwarven" weapons considered martial
Class Features: Aura (Good, Law), Channel Positive Energy (2d6, DC 10) 2x/day, Domains (Artifice- Artificer's Touch (CL 3 mending or 1d6+1) 6x/day; Earth- Acid Dart (1d6+1, 30 ft) 6x/day), Orisons, Spontaneous Casting (Cure); Arcane Bond (Ring), Arcane School- Transmutation (Opposition- Enchantment, Illusion; Physical Enhancement (+1 Str), Telekinetic Fist (1d4+1, 30 ft ranged touch) 5x/day), Cantrips, Scribe Scroll
Skills: Appraise 3 (+8/+10), Craft (Armor) 3 (+8), Craft (Weapons) 3 (+8), Knowledge (Arcana) 2 (+7), Knowledge (Engineering) 2 (+7), Knowledge (Religion) 2 (+7), Perception 6 (+9), Spellcraft 6 (+11)
Traits: Magical Knack (Cleric), one other trait
Feats: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, Improved Unarmed Attack, Scribe Scroll
Spells: Cleric (CL 5); 0-4, 1st-3+1, 2nd-2+1
Wizard (CL 3); 0-4, 1st-3+1, 2nd-2+1
Spellbook (all 0-level except Enchantment, Illusion; Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Identify, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Magic Weapon, Shield, True Strike; Acid Arrow, Cat's Grace, False Life, Glitterdust; 135 gp)
Gear: TBD
Combat: TBD
Half-Elf Conjurer 3/Druid 3
10 Str, 13 Dex, 12 Con, 16 Int (14 +2 race), 15 Wis (14 +1 advancement), 10 Cha
Racial Traits: +2 to any one ability score (Int); Medium Size; Speed 30 ft; Low-Light Vision; Adaptability (Skill Focus as bonus feat); Elf Blood; Immune to magical sleep effects, +2 saves vs. Enchantment; +2 Perception checks; Multi-talented (Favored Classes- Druid, Wizard)
Class Features: Arcane Bond (Staff), Arcane School- Conjuration (Opposition- Illusion, Necromancy; Summoner's Charm (+1 round), Acid Dart (1d6+1, 30 ft) 6x/day), Cantrips, Scribe Scroll; Nature Bond (Plant Domain- Wooden Fist (+1 damage) 5 rounds/day), Nature Sense (+2 Knowledge (Nature), Survival checks), Orisons, Wild Empathy (+3), Woodland Stride, Trackless Step
Skills: Heal 3 (+8), Knowledge (Arcana) 6 (+12), Knowledge (Nature) 6 (+14), Knowledge (Planes) 3 (+9), Linguistics 3 (+9; Aquan, Auran, Common, Draconic, Druidic, Elven, Ignan, Sylvan, Terran), Perception 6 (+11), Spellcraft 6 (+12), Survival 3 (+11)
Traits: Magical Knack (Wizard), one other trait
Feats: Augment Summoning, Craft Wand, Scribe Scroll, Skill Focus (Survival), Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Spells: Wizard (CL 5); 0-4, 1st-3+1, 2nd-2+1
Spellbook (all 0-level except Illusion, Necromancy; Enlarge Person, Grease, Identify, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, Sleep, Summon Monster I; Glitterdust, Scorching Ray, Summon Monster II, Web; 120 gp)
Druid (CL 3); 0-4, 1st-3+1, 2nd-2+1
Gear: masterwork scimitar (315 gp), +1/masterwork quarterstaff (arcane bond item; 2,000 gp), masterwork alchemical silver dagger (322 gp), ring of protection +1 (2,000 gp), amulet of natural armor +1 (2,000 gp), scroll of mage armor (CL 3; 75 gp), scroll of lesser restoration (150 gp), wand of scorching ray (4,500 gp), wand of cure light wounds (750 gp), wand of magic missile (CL 3; 2250 gp), 1,518 gp
Combat: AC 13 (touch 12, flat-footed 12)*, 35.5 avg hp, +3 melee or +4 ranged, Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +8, Init +1, CMB +3, CMD 14
*- AC 18 (flat-footed 17) with barkskin and mage armor
Human Cleric (Asmodeus) 3/Enchanter 3
13 Str, 10 Dex, 12 Con, 15 Int (14 + 1 advancement), 16 Wis (14 + 2 race), 10 Cha
Racial Traits: +2 Any one score (Wis); Medium Size; Speed 30 ft; Bonus feat at 1st level; Skilled (+1 Skill Rank per level)
Class Features: Aura (Evil, Law), Channel Negative Energy (2d6, DC 11) 3x/day, Domains (Fire- Fire Bolt (1d6+1, 30 ft ranged touch) 6x/day; Trickery- Class Skills (Bluff, Disguise, Stealth), Copycat (3 rounds) 6x/day), Orisons, Spontaneous Casting (Inflict); Arcane Bond (mace), Arcane School- Enchantment (Opposition- Divination, Transmutation; Enchanting Smile (+2 enhancement to Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Dazing Touch (3 HD) 5x/day), Cantrips, Scribe Scroll
Skills: Bluff 3 (+8), Diplomacy 3 (+8), Knowledge (Arcana) 5 (+10), Knowledge (Planes) 1 (+6), Knowledge (Religion) 6 (+11), Perception 6 (+9), Spellcraft 6 (+11)
Traits: Magical Knack (Cleric), one other trait
Feats: Craft Wand, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Scribe Scroll, Toughness
Spells: Cleric (CL 5); 0- 4, 1st- 3+1, 2nd- 2+1
Wizard (CL 3); 0- 4, 1st- 3+1, 2nd- 2+1
Spellbook (all 0-level except Divination, Transmutation; Charm Person, Chill Touch, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield, Sleep; Glitterdust, Scorching Ray, Spectral Hand, Touch of Idiocy; 150 gp)
Gear: masterwork heavy crossbow (350 gp), +1 cold iron heavy mace (4,324 gp), masterwork alchemical silver dagger (322 gp), ring of protection +1 (2,000 gp), amulet of natural armor +1 (2,000 gp), scroll of chill touch (CL 3; 75 gp), scroll of mage armor (CL 3; 75 gp), scroll of lesser restoration (150 gp), scroll of spectral hand (150 gp), wand of cure light wounds (750 gp), wand of scorching ray (4,500 gp), 1,154 gp
Combat: AC 12 (touch 11, flat-footed 12)*, 42.5 avg hp, +4 melee or +3 ranged, Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +9, Init +0, CMB +4, CMD 14
*- AC 16 (flat-footed 16) with mage armor
Human Wizard 3/Cleric (Nethys) 3
8 Str, 14 Dex, 12 Con, 16 Int (14 + 2 race), 15 Wis (14 + 1 advancement), 10 Cha
Racial Traits: +2 Any one score (Int); Medium Size; Speed 30 ft; Bonus feat at 1st level; Skilled (+1 Skill Rank per level)
Class Features: Arcane Bond (staff), Arcane School- Universalist (Hand of the Apprentice 6x/day), Cantrips, Scribe Scroll; Channel Positive Energy (2d6, DC 11) 3x/day, Domains (Magic- Hand of the Acolyte 5x/day; Protection- +1 resistance on all saves, Resistant Touch 5x/day), Orisons, Spontaneous Casting (Cure)
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) 6 (+12), Knowledge (Planes) 3 (+9), Knowledge (Religion) 6 (+12), Linguistics 3* (+9), Perception 6 (+8), Spellcraft 6 (+14), Use Magic Device 6 (+8)
*- Abyssal, Auran, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Ignan, Terran
Traits: Magical Knack (Wizard), one other trait
Feats: Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Magical Aptitude, Point Blank Shot, Scribe Scroll
Spells: Wizard (CL 5); 0- 4, 1st- 3, 2nd- 2
Spellbook (all 0-level; Color Spray, Comprehend Languages, Grease, Enlarge Person, Identify, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Sleep; Acid Arrow, Resist Energy, Web; 75 gp)
Cleric (CL 3); 0- 4, 1st- 3+1, 2nd- 2+1
Gear: masterwork light crossbow (335 gp), +1/masterwork quarterstaff (arcane bond item; 2,000 gp), masterwork alchemical silver dagger (322 gp), ring of protection +1 (2,000 gp), amulet of natural armor +1 (2,000 gp), scroll of mage armor (CL 3; 75 gp), scroll of lesser restoration (150 gp), wand of acid arrow (4,500 gp), wand of cure light wounds (750 gp), wand of magic missile (CL 3; 2250 gp), 1,543 gp
Combat: AC 14 (touch 13, flat-footed 12)*, 35.5 avg hp, +2 melee or +5 ranged, Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +9, Init +2, CMB +2, CMD 14
*- AC 18 (flat-footed 16) with mage armor
I can't see why there are so many recommendations of "bard" for the arcane. The whole point of the MT is that you get lots of spells. You don't get anything else. The bard's an okay spellcaster for someone with a 3/4 BAB and a d8 HD, but sucks for someone with a 1/2BAB and d6. Who cares about armor if you should never be visible in striking range anyways?
The MT has casting stamina and lots of different choices. You have to think subtlety, not power. You always have something worthwhile to do even if not always something game-changing.
I'm running a C3(luck+travel)S4(Draconic)MT3 at the moment. The high CHA for the sorc means lots of channeling (he's also the "face"). The luck and travel powers are good without lots of cleric levels. My strategy is to always buff (or summon), and almost never attack, so I can remain invisible the whole combat (being very fragile).
Hello. I am more often DM than player, and never have played cleric (except NPC, but it is not the same thing), nor a mystic theurge, nor played at very high level.
Conditions:
for play PFRPG Campaign in Cheliax "Council of Thieves", and after the DM want to go to EPIC levels.Books ONLY authorized:
Core Rulebook
Companion "Cheliax: Empire of Devils"
Add-on of "Council of Thieves" i.e tiefling
Feats of "PFRPG: The inner Sea World Guide" (the last)Build: ability purchase 25 pts
2 traits (magical knack +?) +1 campaign traits (Conspiracy Hunter?)
race tiefling ONLY (because it's fun!)
so 1st feat: Fiendish Heritage (Council of Thieves n°1) because i don't like tiefling at random...
god patron: Calistria (hard way in Cheliax but fun!!!!) or Shelyn
Alignement: CN or CG<the 4 members party should have no caster except me...>
I hesitate:
1) more wizard than cleric (wizard 7 /cleric 3 /MT 10) or more Cleric (W3/C7/MT10) or half-half (W5/C5/MT10)?
2) use of an armor (feats Arcane Armor Training + Arcane Armor Mastery, and/or Still Spell) or not? so feats?
3) Specialize in one wizard school (enchantment?) /opposition schools ? or universialist school? So which cleric domains?
4) i think to use more Touch attack (spell spectral hand) than ranged,
which spell to concentrate?Any suggestions are welcomed!!! Thanks
Really, based on what you posted here, you've already decided what you wanted to play pretty specifically. Chaotic Tiefling Wizard/Cleric/MT. That's a solid concept there that you seem set on playing, so go for it and see how it turns out. I would decide your level split after you play a few sessions and see where the most need is. I would also talk to your GM about the nature of the campaign before choosing your School and Domains---for example, it would suck to play an enchanter only to discover that most of your enemies have high Will saves.
That said, my thoughts:
Tieflings get a penalty to Charisma. This makes them not the best clerics, because while Wisdom is a cleric's caster stat, they do have some abilities based on Charisma, most notably Channel Energy, which as an all around support caster type, you are probably going to tap into to heal your party at some point, or deal with undead. Depending on your desires and the campaign needs, I'd therefore maybe consider druid, who doesn't need Charisma, and you could add some shapeshifting schtick to your party role (combine with Wizard Transmutation school for synergy). Carry healing items (wands of cure) if you don't think your druid spells will be enough to handle the party's healing needs.
Using a Tiefling as your chosen race also makes them non viable for the various Charisma-based caster suggestions floating around, unless you are using some variant that allows different ability score adjustments--OR you use them for playing an Abyssal or Infernal sorcerer, wherein their Charisma penalty is negated for the purposes of casting sorcerer spells. If you WEREN'T set on playing a tiefling, which you seem to be, the Charisma based caster suggestions are pretty good, and I like the bard suggestion because Mystic Theurge is essentially a magical jack of all trades.
Cure is not a problem for MT: wizard spells can be turned spontaneously in Cure, and with Spectral Hands, you can cure your friends (Cure Critical and less) at distance (or place Poison).
Actually, I am not sure you can do that. The rules state: "Spontaneous spellcasters can only select spells that they have prepared that day using non-spontaneous classes for this ability, even if the spells have already been cast." This is more for a prepared vs. spontaneous class, like cleric/sorcerer---but I would check with your GM about spontaneous transformation of cure spells using a non-spontaneous class like wizard to make sure the GM thinks this is a kosher use of the class ability.
Also if you are planning to be low on your cleric levels, which was your first choice, you're only going to be able to do this with lower level cure spells for awhile, till you get a lot of levels of Mystic Theurge to up your cleric caster level.
Witch isn't an option: I tested a little the APG and found some things were "over powered", that a base class like fighter have lost a little more of interest. Did you notice 5 of the 6 new base classes were sort of caster?
I am normally very cautious and cynical about splat power bloat, and I have not found the APG to be overpowered. There are "tricks" the Witch can use in specific circumstances that are powerful, but likewise ways to get past them. I know one of the big hexes people complain about the witch is the Slumber one--which any elf and half-elf are automatically immune to, as is any creature with immunity to enchantments/compulsions/mind affecting.
Also, Fighters have gotten a lot more options in the APG, both with their archetypes (Mobile fighter and Weapon Master particularly) and more feats Fighters can access. They haven't lost viability.
I have always assumed the larger number of caster classes in the APG was because they fit specific spellcaster niches that suit certain types of fantasy better. For example, the templar-based cleric is out of place in a swords-and-sandals fantasy, but the oracle fits right in. A shamanic type world may have no place for pointy hat wizards, but witches work perfectly. Alchemists are great for steampunk worlds where maybe a bard is not. While on the other hand, you don't need to make up a lot of new non-caster classes to suit specific flavor, because soldiers, adventurers, and thieves are everywhere. :)
And that the Witch could "ruin" a campaign... or be useless.
And when you can build an eidolon at level 10 which has 5 attacks at full BAB with Str more than 25, why would you play a fighter?
Because when the fighter gets hurt, the summoner is unaffected, and there aren't spells that specifically are designed to dismiss or devolve a fighter, whereas there are for eidolons--not to mention, as someone else noted, the eidolon's BAB is never going to be as good as a fighter. Plus people are less likely to scream and run away from a fighter in town than they might from a scary eidolon---you can't always keep the thing summoned and walking around. Amongst other things. :)
A friend told me of a template of Anti-paladin/Oracle Lore (Revelation: Sidestep Secret)/vampire... a nightmare for AC and Save...
Do you all play vampires often in your campaigns?
For my build, i would be "armored" to be less dependent on spells, but it costs 2 feats and the swift action. So, if i use Quicken Spell (Rod or Feat), i must cast 2 cleric spell in this round to prevent risk of failure. Or use Still feat (with Heighten Spell to increase DC)...
If you really want to be armored, then you need to seriously consider a bard-based build (arcane duelist in particular), and ergo not go the tiefling route if you don't want the penalty to your casting stat.
I don't think Sorceror/cleric is better: you cannot use MT power in the 2 ways and that you gain in Cha bonus, you lost more in skills points.
And with my build, i could increase enough Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidation, Sense Motive and Perception to do social.
Again, if you are looking to be social, then tiefling isn't a great choice, and bard looks better. Of course, play what you think is the most fun, just be aware of the possible pitfalls.
However, I'd suggest if you're trying to be the party caster, I don't know if I would worry too much about your social skills on top of that. That of course is up to you.
Good luck.
I can't see why there are so many recommendations of "bard" for the arcane. The whole point of the MT is that you get lots of spells. You don't get anything else. The bard's an okay spellcaster for someone with a 3/4 BAB and a d8 HD, but sucks for someone with a 1/2BAB and d6. Who cares about armor if you should never be visible in striking range anyways?
The MT has casting stamina and lots of different choices. You have to think subtlety, not power. You always have something worthwhile to do even if not always something game-changing.
Surprisingly its that last part on why the bard makes such a great mystic theurge.
1. Armor -- yes, people think it's over rated -- but you want to use your spells for useful things... not protecting yourself. Armor will also cause creatures to misunderstand what you are doing and can save you action economy. Not to mention that it isn't just armor -- it's armor and a shield. A light shield +3 is 4 points of AC that didn't come from a spell and didn't take an action -- you can also still cast with the shield. So even if we keep it simple with a +3 mithral breastplate and a +3 light shield we've got a +13 to AC very easily. The mystic theurge like any other character can always use some protection.
2. Options -- you are going to be stuck with low level spells for a long time. So having other options than just same low level spells is always good. Bardic performance provides lots of options. Even in its simplest form of inspire courage you are giving everyone in your party quite the boost -- they aren't going to be worrying so much about your spells when you are providing a +2 to hit and damage without needing much protection yourself... and then you follow it up with heroism or good hope. Skills are great from the bard -- you aren't going to get many skill points and bard lets you spread them out more with versatile performance and bardic knowledge.
3. Low level blues -- Lets face it: Mystic theurges typically suffer at lower levels. As others have pointed out often up into their teens. IF you start with bard -- you don't have too. take bard to fifth level and guess what -- you are a 5th level bard. Just as useful as any other fifth level bard. You aren't some crappy wizard 3/cleric 2 that's making due with 2 second level spells and a bunch of first level spells -- you are still a full fledge bard. You grab a level of cleric and... no one really cares. After all you weren't going to get third level spells soon, and you've got more healing to spread around now as well as some useful domains. You can still fight -- yeah you are down one point of BAB but a single point isn't that bad especially with your bardic music and heroism backing you up worse comes to worse go nova and drop shield of faith and divine favor on yourself -- people won't know you from the fighter. You have armor you have a shield you can still mix it up. At tenth level you have 3rd level bard magic and 3rd level cleric magic meaning you've got your prayer to help, magic vestment to help keep costs down, as well as haste and good hope. The buffs you offer are serious stuff and you are still no slouch if you need to mix it up yourself (+6 BAB instead of +7 hardly a bad trade).
From this point on your magic will improve and you are still competent in multiple fields. You've got great spells that are subtle and wonderful buffs -- you have options and you are still going places.
It works precisely because all the really great bard spells are low level and you get access rather quickly.
It takes the pain out of being a mystic theurge.
QUOTE="Defraeter"] I thank you all for your advices!!!!!!!
I see tactics are not easy... but you give me very good advices!!! Thanks!
It's very different from a build of an NPC who must just do one fight and die. ;-)
Note:
1) Why i could be interested by "armor":
The best fight of my player are often when they "smash the monster" quickly, so each round my PC will use for his defense will be "one round more of damage to heal": my PC should act as booster or battlefield controller in the first round, except when he needs to save his life.
Armor don't need round to be ready!
Magic Vestment has a spell duration by Hour.
One more advantage is that a woman (my PC) in armor is less a "natural target" than one in robe!!! ^^
To end, the less spells in defence, the more in boost and attack, so less round to kill monster, so less damage to cure...
But it is not "the best", because the price "2 feats & the swift" is high...
Cause it long road till you get level 3 spells.(The soonest is level 8) I would use one feat for this and get the light. But you may want to Skip this
2) why "touch attack"
One spell is for me basic for MT: Spectral hand!!! And i think i will invest in a wand of Spectral Hand to have ALWAYS a Spectral Hand ready in dungeons.
Through Spectral Hand, you can cast all touch attack of 4th level or less, profane or divine... and touch at safe distance.
Like the very good Shocking Grasp, Touch of Idiocy, Inflict, Poison or Bestow Curse... and all the spontaneous Cure spell of course.
Smart and I totally agree. But watch the save DC one do to the fact that your save DC will be 2 lower that caster same point cause when your are. Also Cure or Inflict it pick one or the other not both unless spend feat to get the other but that UM.
3) why Bonded object
The interest is to transform it in a wand at 5th CL (i.e wand of Spectral Hand for instance), in a Rod after (i.e Rod of Quicken/Silent), and after in a staff (i.e of Healing or Life)... without take any feat.
I agree that you free upgrade with out the feat but I do not think you can change it.
4) why weapon and good Str
at low level, with longspear or glaive, you can use "aid another action" + tactical position for Flanking: it is always a good deal to aid the specialist of fight and give them up to +4 attack bonus.
And with whip (Calistria), you can disarm or trip at 3 squares for 1 gp.
Sure I do this all the time to save spells but the DC is 10 - 2 for the flank so DC 8.... you do not need 14 STR for +2 to get this to DC 6. Pluss you realy on do this tactic at level 1-3 maybe 4 but that is and the DC dose not raise but your BAB will.
And
@thomas nelson: sure, it don't bother me if the other score the glory... after all i'm used to as DM!!!!
Did I see that this may plans to go epic level? If so then best build is Cleric 3/ Wizard 3/ Mystic Theurge till campaign is over if this 10 ,15, 20 ect.
Combat Casting is must cause it will work for both classes. Any feat that work for both is a good idea. Casting Defensive is DC 15 +2x spell level and you your spell level + Casting Stat( you stat is not High due to need 2 and you are 3 level be hind.
How many hat is this guy going to wear?
You may want to go Necromancy themed spell list for the touch spell. Alot of the one you listed are Necromancy. And Get School Focus and Greater School Focus Necromancy.
For the God you picked out I would use Luck and Trickery.
I kind of like Nethyis due that fact he is god of Magic and all.
What is you trick or Schick going to be. I would pick 3. Then Give 3 feat to help each.
I like Trip, Disarm, Reposition, Dirty Trick with Whip Pluss True Strike and Enlarge Person this give you like 30ft of reach. +22 of the roll which should go to get it though and let you trip up to huge. This may or may not want you to spend a feat on this. Also give you reach for you touch spells. Just thought of this Hand of the Mage + Whip 30 range + 15 Reach means 45ft Trip. I bite tongue but the 14 STR maybe worth it. (God it hurts me to say that... the Pain is GREAT give me sec to recover...)Sobbing softly.... K let us move on.
You can heal but you are never going to be great healer. So do not try.
No feat there.
You real power is you mass of spells and the ability to always have spell for the job. Either form you 2 List, Scrolls, Wands, Pearls,
Plus to 2 Domain Power and Hand of the Mage that are like spell.
You have 10 feat to work with Plus Scribe Scroll and 2 Traits
Combat
Anatomist
Combat this week but with range touch attack it may be worth it and not bad for role play lead to School Focus Necromancy ect
Faith
Birthmark
Strong and frees hand Bonded item
Magic
Desperate Focus Trait Cheliax +2 trait bonus on concentration checks
Social
Charming with Charm Domain that may take this might not be so bad for roll play.
Equipment
Prehensile Whip
Faction
Master of Pentacles (Cheliax)
Soul-Drinker (Cheliax)
Both good role play
Race none you are Tiefing
Regional
Secret Revolutionary
good role play
Religion
Wasp Whisperer
good role play
After doing all that Extra Trait may be fun and go with the themed of allot of little powers.
Combat Casting as needed
Point Blank Shot /Precise Shot: Range Touch Spell you may need not may
depends on you play style.
Craft Wondrous Item Just Stat Items alone it worth the feat for this guy. Then add in Peals or Phylactery of positive channeling ask if can combo this or make it in an other slot. Ioun Stone Orange and Purple. Plus Tomes to help with MAD Stat that are need for this build. Cloak of Ress. Bracer of Armor, Rode of the Magi Must HAVE and Early as Level 5 or 3 Depends on Build
Craft Wand If you go Wizard 5 take it for free for sure. Other wise it depends on how much you want him to be a crafter. If Rouge or any one else take Use Magic Devise the this become way more use full and help share some of the healing role. This is really hard one to pass up.
Spell Penetration SR question??? Do you try to beat it and give two feat help it that is your call I would try to avoid it by buffing or spam it Or Summoning.
School Focus/ Greater School Focus/ Augment Summoning. I would Pick on theme and stick with it. Necromancy, Enchantment, Conjuration. Your taste pick one that will work well for BOTH classes.
Necromancy Doom, Ray of enfeeblement, Cause Fear, Sotto Voice, Touch of Fatigue, Chill touch, Ghoul Touch, Blindness/Deafness. The Inflict Spells if you can get them on you list but do not give free cure to do it.
Enchantment + Charm Domain + Charming Trait not to bad Charm Person, Command, Bane, Hideous Laughter, Suggestion, Hold Person
Conjuration Grease, Web, Glitter Dust, Stinking Cloud, Troop with Summon Monster
Meta Magic I think not but to one taste.
You have to think subtlety, not power. You always have something worthwhile to do even if not always something game-changing.Surprisingly its that last part on why the bard makes such a great mystic theurge.
...
It takes the pain out of being a mystic theurge.
It also takes the point out of being a mystic theurge ;).
Suppose you've already got C3 B4 (so you qualify). You're going to consider the next four levels (say). If you simply take them as Cleric, you get 4d8HP, +3BAB, 2d6 more channeling power, and (probably) another couple domain powers. Take 4 levels of MT, you get 4d6 HP (4 HP less), +2 BAB (1 less than above), and access to two L3 Bard spells. Are two L3 Bard spells/day worth 4 HP, +1BAB, 2d6 channeling, +1 fort, and two domain powers?
You've already made the caster level sacrifice and it still looks to me like you're better off admitting error and continuing on in one of the two classes you've already got. Since the only benefit to being a MT is being able to cast spells from two classes, it seems nuts to choose a qualifying class that's mostly about things other than casting spells!
The same could be said for anyone considering mystic theurge.
Look the whole reason you go into mystic theurge is to have more versatility. Bard gives that -- you get plenty of good spells and plenty of extra options. There is very little you are going to have as a wizard that you won't have as a bard in this case that you will actually want to use.
The same could be said for anyone considering mystic theurge.
That's true if you're considering it from L1.
If you're already C3W3 (or C3S4), though, you may as well go MT, since you're advancing two full caster classes. If you're already C3B4, however, either one of the existing classes seem strictly better to continue, since otherwise you're advancing one full caster and one 3/4 caster.
If you're determined to have some Bard and be a MT, you're better off as C3B1W3MT* than C3B4MT*, since you're going to have more and higher-level arcane spells at the cost of 18 skill points and a couple unexciting bard special abilities.
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I think full bard is a much better choice. They get healing, arcane spells, specal abilitys, skills. They are just very effective members of a party. The only thing you need to do is invest in umd and some gold for lesser restoration, and remove XX.
So they do every thing a mystic theurge dose. They have less spells per day but gain specal abilitys, and skills. And at no point are they behind in there ability to keap up with the party.
Complete disagreement -- I think the bard does fine as a mystic theurge -- in fact its doubly nice since you don't just have to be the semi retarded wizard/ semi retarded cleric that can't do anything but cast low level spells. The bardic abilities play in nicely and add a lot more than you suggest they do.
Abraham spalding
I like your bard point of view with the Cleric but I would take first level of cleric at second level or firt just for spells, orison, burst, Domain powers ect early. Then add bard on top till I get it highter.
But I do not think I like it for this party of Fighter, Monk, Rouge and mega Caster.The lack or healing and big bag/ control scare me.
How does cleric and bard have less healing than wizard and cleric?
I would point out that even with just core you have lots of the good battlefield control spells as a bard too.