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Question from Mr. Noob here.
I'm putting together an encounter with 3 orcs (CR 1/3), so the total CR is 1.
Their treasure says "NPC," so I went to Table 14-9 and looked up "Total GP Value" for a Level 1 NPC (since it's a CR1 encounter). It returned a value of 260gp.
So far, so good.
I then went to the Bestiary and looked up their treasure, which is "Studded Leather, Falchion, 4 Javelins, and Other Treasure."
But the problem is this. When I add up the value of their listed treasure for 3 Orcs, I get this:
75gp = 3 suits of studded leather
225gp = 3 falchions
12gp = 12 javelinsSo I'm already at 312gp of NPC Gear value for the 3 orcs. Meaning I'm already past the 260gp and without even adding in any coins or jewelry.
Am I erring somehow?
I believe you are looking at avg gold per encounter. All this means is they should fight some wolves or other creature with low/no treasure to off set this.
Not sure if this is relevant, but don't forget that they'll sell the equipment for half the listed price. I don't recall if the guidelines are supposed to reflect net gold, or retail gold.
That's another one of the things I'm trying to find out! :)Not sure if this is relevant, but don't forget that they'll sell the equipment for half the listed price. I don't recall if the guidelines are supposed to reflect net gold, or retail gold.
I've been using that as the book price, and they then get 1/2 if they sell it.
The campaign has been sandboxed sine about lv 5, and we are getting close to level 10, and wealth seems on par with where it should be.Every now and then i throw in a roll your loot and that can put a spike in it one way or the other.
I then went to the Bestiary and looked up their treasure, which is "Studded Leather, Falchion, 4 Javelins, and Other Treasure."
But the problem is this. When I add up the value of their listed treasure for 3 Orcs, I get this:
75gp = 3 suits of studded leather
225gp = 3 falchions
12gp = 12 javelinsSo I'm already at 312gp of NPC Gear value for the 3 orcs. Meaning I'm already past the 260gp and without even adding in any coins or jewelry.
Am I erring somehow?
Nope -- only that your 260 is the average treasure for an encounter of level -- there's a reason that the rules warn you about using only NPCs as targets. :) Basically, the party does well here, and then fights an animal, ooze, undead or aberration next. (Not necessarily "next", but you get the idea).
So, for instance -- after these 3 Orcs, the next encounter is with the Orc Wolftrainer - he's got leather and a whip and the wolves, well, are wolves.
I looked at Ezren in Kingmaker chapter ... 3, I think, and all his gear looked like it was more or less cherrypicked, and equalled WBL of his level.
If your PCs receive a lot of loot they can't use (and they're not good optimizers) then you may have to filter money back in.
I'm sure that's spelled out somewhere. I just can't find it.
I generally look at the total retail value of the gear they have, not what they could sell it for. Sometimes you need to guess if the party will keep an item or sell an item when you dole it out, to keep the wealth reasonable.
You may want to gey cheeper weapon for the orks 2d4+STR1/2 MoD with 18-20x2 has good good chance of killing PC at level 1. With ork having power attack mosty likly. Go to club a) free b) melee and range) c)1d6+str Mod x2 is less likly to kill som one.
On side note level 1-3 I count every thing, level 4-7 I only count Master work, Magic, or Alchimal 8-11 Magic, or Alchimal. 11+ Magic.
Cause at as level go up no cares about 50 suits of chian shirts unless they are mitharal.
Exactly. You cannot really predict when PCs are going to sell something, or when they're going to keep it. Somebody who has a clear combat role may entirely surprise you by multiclassing and spending a feat to use an item that you thought nobody in the group had synergy with.
PCs, particularly canny ones, usually manage to pull victory out of the jaws of defeat, so shorting them on just a little isn't the worst thing, whereas underchallenging them (because they have too much WBL) leads to a boring game -- besides, it's on them to semi-frequently liquidate treasure into a usable form, both so they can use it and so you can reassess what their wealth really is and push it back toward what it should be.
The really hairy thing when it comes to WBL is item-crafting. Depending on your perspective, it may or may not mean that you (the DM) have to calculate crafted items differently than found items for the purposes of treasure, and adjusting PCs back towards WBL.
Some DMs think that the advantage of crafting is that PCs can make ANY item that they can afford, while the items they want may not necessarily be available to purchase -- such as trying to buy a 20k gold item in a city where only items of 5k or lower can always be found. These DMs may or may not count crafted items like any other item for the PCs WBL; so the PC doesn't have 'more wealth' than any other character even though he crafted the items, but because they're cherrypicked, they probably synergize very well with the character build and yield greater combat potential than would be suggested by the numbers.
After all, what's more powerful -- a spellcaster with 200k worth of magic armor, a magic weapon, some resistance bonuses? Or a spellcaster with 200k worth of three magic items that grant caster level bonuses, extra spell slots, and rods that spontaneously apply metamagic to cast spells?
Others say that the advantage lies in the fact that you craft items at half price; this perspective is likely found in games where the GMs run campaigns with high magic, where players are more or less free to shop for magic items out of the approved books. So a Wizard with Craft Wondrous Item may have a WBL of 20,000 gold, but because he took the gold he got from adventuring and crafted with it, may be actually carrying 22,000 gold worth of equipment because he made some of it at half price. Truly, running with this perspective, a character with Craft Wondrous Item / Rod / Stave / Scroll / Arms & Armor may approach double the suggested WBL.
You did not miss any thing but orc are over power for there CR and that is perfect point showing it.
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I looked at Ezren in Kingmaker chapter ... 3, I think, and all his gear looked like it was more or less cherrypicked, and equalled WBL of his level.
If your PCs receive a lot of loot they can't use (and they're not good optimizers) then you may have to filter money back in.
Thanks for looking that up. :)
Bottom line is that I'll keep an eye on things and make sure the loot progression is about right. And I'll adjust as necessary.
But I'm still not clear on ONE little thing. If a 2nd level PC should have around 1000gp in loot, how would you count a +1 Longsword? Would you count it as a 2000gp item (since that is the price for a PC to purchase such an item) or as a 1000gp item (since that is what a PC could only sell it for)?
I'm sure that's spelled out somewhere. I just can't find it.
I think you are over thinking this. :) Those numbers are guidelines, not rules. Plus as others have mentioned that is the avg over several encounters. So if you have 10 encounters all CR 1 then they should have about 2600 gp worth of treasure.
As far as should you count it as half or full value. As a rule of thumb if you are doing your own stuff, mundane items that they are not likely to keep or use or not long, count as half. Things like magic items they will likely keep for awhile count as full. But just remember there is no hard and fast rules, GMing is more of a artform than anything. Learning your players and what you all as a group enjoy and then making the game play to that style.
For some that means lots of treasure way above the avg and for some that means a more mundane lower treasure amounts. Just depends on what you like and don't like.
How can 1 ED player be push around by charts. 1 ED had Metcric ton more chart than 3.5 or pathfinder (3.75)? I laughted so hard I almosted cried lollololololoolololololollololololololololololool
Np if you gm 1ED then 3.75 is way easier. Much cleaner system