OriginalAragorn's page

OriginalAragorn - You are correct NPC classes do not get max hp, or the same point buy.

"Aren't they overpowered for CR 1 / 3?"
Yes. But the fix is fairly simple:
Change Ferocity to Orc Ferocity (from the half-orc race in the core rules.)
Change falchion to long sword and shield.

But those two changes should put orc back between hobgoblin and gnoll where they belong.

Thanks. I like your suggestion about changing Ferocity to Orc Ferocity. It seems more reasonable for a CR 1/3 creature.

Sorry if this is going into the realm of a "rules question," but I'm relatively new to PF and puzzled by something:

The Intro in the Bestiary says that "Creatures with PC Class Levels received maximum hit points for their first HD."

I looked up Orcs and it says they don't get racial Hit Dice. They are listed as "Orc Warrior 1." Doesn't this mean they are defined by their class levels? So they should get max hit dice at first level according to the sentence in the intro, right? Yet they only have 6hp..

Is this because Warrior isn't a PC class?

So a tengu is listed as Rogue 1 and they DO get max hit points at 1st level..

I think I just answered my own question.

HP: 6 means that a level 1 character has a solid chance of one-blow-kill on the critter

HP: 12 means that most level 1 characters don't have a chance of a one-blow-kill.

And on level 1, the difference between being in a fight one round longer is often the difference of new character sheets made ready.

Also, light sensitivity for Orcs.

I was thinking that too, but doesn't ferocity mean you have to dish 18hp of damage to actually finish off the critter? (to take the orc from 6 to -12)

Maybe the bigger issue is that Gnolls are underpowered for their CR. Compare the gnoll against a Hobgoblin:

Hobgoblin has better AC (16 vs. 15)
Hobgoblin has better HP (12 vs. 11)
Hobgoblin is more likely to hit (+4 vs +3 melee)
Hobgoblin has better initiative (+2 vs +0)
Gnoll does 1 point more damage when he hits (7.5 vs. 6.5)

Yet a Gnoll is worth 400xp and a Hobgoblin 200xp.

I realize this isn't a huge issue! :) I'm just wondering about these disparities.

So I compared orcs vs. gnolls and this is what I got:

Orcs:
AC 13
HP 6
Melee +5 (2d4+4) = average damage per hit of 9
CR 1/3
XP 135
Special Ability: Ferocity (lets an Orc essentially fight all the way until he hits -12 hp, in a staggered condition)

Gnolls:
AC 15
HP 11
Melee +3 (1d8+3) = average damage per hit of 7.5
CR 1
XP 400

To be honest, I think a Gnoll is BARELY tougher than a single orc. There is no way 1 Gnoll = 3 Orcs in terms of a tough encounter.

A gnoll has better A/C and more HP.

An orc has Ferocity (which means you have to dish 18hp of damage before he is completely dead - more or less) and has a better melee attack.

Am I misunderstanding the Ferocity ability?

Why would a Gnoll be worth three times the XP of an orc?

Very helpful. Thanks!

I haven't played much PF and I wanted to see if my idea was at least reasonably fair.

George

SPOILERS AHEAD!!

I'm running my group through this module Tuesday, but I'm not sure how many XP to give them for Room 8. There are 7 trapped statues in the room with "Shocking Grasp Traps" on each one. So if the PC's "defeat" the first trap and then figure out that each statue is trapped in the same way, do they get XP for each trap they disable or work around?

My concern is that each trap is listed as CR2 (600xp), which means the PC's would get 4,200xp for disarming (or working around) all 7 traps in the room. This seems very excessive for a 1st level module, especially since the traps are all identical in nature - and thus much less challenging than running into 7 different traps.

The room description says CR 2+, which doesn't help me. I figured it says 2+ because you get CR2 for each one you experience.

I'm considering giving full xp for the first trap, and maybe 1/2xp for each subsequent one.

Any advice?

Thanks,
George

hi gamerfinders,

I thought this might be an interesting question to toss out there. I keep on seeing indicators of Pthfinders success, anywhere from #1 spots on Amazons seller list to the CEO saying that they have a bigger market share than dnd. Usually I see players reporting on how the game is selling in the bricks and mortar stores.

But maybe a more important gauge is to ask if it is becoming easier find Pthfinder players to have some fun with? Have people found dnders who resisted for a long time finally coming around to test it out? Are they finding people who've never played a RPG before wanting some Pathfnder?

I'd think that with an expanded market share that people would find the social aspects of the game changing for them.

what have you guys experienced?
booger=boy

A know a guy who owns a large game store in Northern California. He just told me two weeks ago that PF products flat-out sell faster than 4e products.

In that store, there appear to be more PF groups than 4e groups meeting on a weekly basis.

I also just got my D&D group to switch over to PF (at least for the time being).

OriginalAragorn wrote:

Wow, Charge is an interesting topic all by itself! Based on reading page 183 and Squeek's email, I now take it to mean that the act of charging doesn't initiate an AOO, but you are still subject to AOO's from moving out of any threatened squares - up to and including an AOO from your intended target if he has reach.

A good example of this would be if you charged the ogre with, say, a lance or a longspear. When using a reach weapon, you will end your charge 5' away from the opponent. Because you did not move through his threatened area (only *into* it), you do not provoke an Attack of Opportunity. The charge itself doesn't provoke, but any movement you make to get in range might.

That's both a very good illustration of how the charge would work, and also a good lesson on the wisdom of packing a reach weapon!

OriginalAragorn wrote:

11) I'm a little confused about temporary ability score increases. Why is a Tome of Leadership and Influence 27,500gp for a +1 increase to CHA, yet a Headband of Alluring Charisma is only 4,000gp for a +2 increase?

I assumed this was because the Tome, once read, gives you a permanent increase, whereas the Headband only works when you wear it. Is this true?

And the Headband also says "Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the headband is worn." So what happens after the first 24 hours? Does it become permanent?

For the first 24 hours, it does not count for fulfilling prerequisites for feats, increased number of spells, maximum spell level, or whatever else might be dependent on the ability in question. After that initial period, it does count for all of that, but only if you continue to wear it constantly.

Side note: I always wondered how someone with a belt of (whatever) took a bath, since the magic goes away once you take it off, and it takes a full day to reattune to it.

Thanks! That makes sense.

As for your last question, yeah that headband or belt is going to get pretty ripe after a while! Apparently bathing is for sissies! ;)

11) I'm a little confused about temporary ability score increases. Why is a Tome of Leadership and Influence 27,500gp for a +1 increase to CHA, yet a Headband of Alluring Charisma is only 4,000gp for a +2 increase?

I assumed this was because the Tome, once read, gives you a permanent increase, whereas the Headband only works when you wear it. Is this true?

And the Headband also says "Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the headband is worn." So what happens after the first 24 hours? Does it become permanent?

MAD = Multiple Ability score dependent.

SAD = Single Ability score dependent.

Thanks!

Hyperion-Sanctum wrote:

Then it's a problem because the Monk is the only MAD core class and it seems a bit messed up that they completely whiffed on its mechanics.

I disagree with your statement. The monk is not the only MAD core class. The paladin depends on STR, WIS and CHA. The ranger depends on STR and WIS. The bard depends on INT and CHA. The barbarian depends on STR, CON and DEX (remember, no heavy armor and AC penalty while raging). I would argue that even the cleric depends somewhat on CHA (selective channel and number of channels). The cleric and bard also need STR if they plan to participate in melee.

Sorry to be dense, but what do you mean by MAD? Is this an acronym for something?

OriginalAragorn wrote:

10) Question on CR. If you get in a fight with 6 Skeletons (CR 1/3 each), what is the CR for this brawl?

I'm asking because I see what appear to be 2 inconsistent sources:

a) Table 12-3 in the Core book states that 6 creatures = CR+5. So in this case, a CR of 1/3 +5 = CR of 4 (following the steps of 1/3, 1/2, 1, 2, 3, 4).

Yet the following from Crypt of the Everflame seems to indicate otherwise:

** spoiler omitted **

So what gives?

You only start adding to CRs like that when you're at CR 1. So, 3 skeletons = CR1. Then, 2 x CR 1 = CR3.

An easy way to see that is to look at the XP awards for them (and realize that the 135 for CR 1/3 is rounded up from 133 1/3). So, if you add the XP value of all 6 skeletons, you end up with 800 XP (well, 810, rounding) - which is CR 3.

Thanks! Makes sense. It intuitively makes more sense for that encounter to be CR3 not CR4. Appreciate the guidance on how to use that table.

Wow, Charge is an interesting topic all by itself! Based on reading page 183 and Squeek's email, I now take it to mean that the act of charging doesn't initiate an AOO, but you are still subject to AOO's from moving out of any threatened squares - up to and including an AOO from your intended target if he has reach.

10) Question on CR. If you get in a fight with 6 Skeletons (CR 1/3 each), what is the CR for this brawl?

I'm asking because I see what appear to be 2 inconsistent sources:

a) Table 12-3 in the Core book states that 6 creatures = CR+5. So in this case, a CR of 1/3 +5 = CR of 4 (following the steps of 1/3, 1/2, 1, 2, 3, 4).

Yet the following from Crypt of the Everflame seems to indicate otherwise:

So what gives?

In regards to question #2 above, one thing that seems to have been overlooked is that when using the Charge action, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from the target of the charge, so you could (literally) charge up to the ogre and give him a whack. Of course, then you are at a -2 to your AC for his attack when it comes to his turn again.

Jeff - that's a great answer. I hadn't considered that. I'll remind my players (since we're all new to PF) a few times that they have that option if they're willing to sacrifice their AC.

It's funny - charge never seemed that great when I took a quick look at it. But now that I realize that benefit of bypassing the AOO, that makes it a more appealing option.

Thanks Azure_Zero! You have answered a number of my posts and it's very helpful. Appreciate it.

Sorry I never posted that revised Shadow I was trying to put together. I never did quite get the concept. Maybe I'll save that one for later. :)

Damage Reduction "Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction."

DR Type: Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent
cold iron/silver: +3
adamantine*: +4
alignment-based: +5
* Note that this does not give the ability to ignore hardness, like an actual adamantine weapon does

Thanks! And I'm blushing a little bit because I always forget to check that site. I've just been looking in the books. From now on, I'll take a look there first.

9) Not sure exactly how Damage Reduction works. For example, a "Devil, Lemure" has a DR of "5/good or silver."

I understand that this means that anything besides "good" or "silver" weapons have to take a 5-point damage reduction against a lemure.

But does this mean that a 10th level wizard casting a Lightning Bolt would suffer a -5 damage reduction? What if he was hit with a +5 Greatsword? Does that also take a -5 damage reduction?

In short, does powerful magic still take the -5 DR (even though a fairly mundane item like a silver dagger would avoid the DR)?

They did a blog post on Poison to help folks figure it out.

HERE is the link.

Thanks! I just took a look and it spells it out nicely. :)

8) I'm not sure how poison works in PF. I'll list the stats for a Giant Ant and see if I'm understanding this correctly.

Poison (Ex) Sting - injury; save Fort DC 12; frequency 1/round for 4 rounds; effect 1d2 Str; cure 1 save

Does this mean a PC has to roll a Fort save each round after he's stung (including the round he's initially stung) against DC 12? My understanding is that the PC takes 1d2 strength damage EACH round until he makes a save.

So in this example, if he fails his first two checks but makes the save on Round 3 then I believe he takes 2 rounds of strength damage (due to failed saves in Round 1 and 2). So this would be 1d2 x2. Starting in round 3, he takes no more damage. Is this right?

I tried reading in the Core Rulebook and the Bestiary and I'm not sure it's explained too well. (or I'm just not getting it)

Other than Paizo's site (which I like a lot), are there any other good blogs or forums related specifically to PF?

I like to get my reading in!

Going back to your initial Question #3: Even if you do trip an arrow trap, you should be able to learn how not to trip a similar trap later. Therefore, the XP represents learning from your mistakes.

Makes sense. Thanks!

Unless someone has taken the "Trap Finder" rogue talent, they must actively state that they are making Perception checks to search for traps.

Most rogues will check for traps in likely places - Doors, Suspiciously long corridors, and rooms with mysterious corpses.

Very helpful and clear. Thanks!

Thanks! I think I understand that better now about Stealth & Perception.

Next Question:

7) For traps, do the PC's roll a passive perception check to see if they notice it? Or do the players have to state they are actively searching for traps in order to get a perception roll?

Best group I ever ran was a pair of two PC's - a burly Two-handed Human Fighter and a quick-witted and mobile Elven Rogue/Duelist. They were best friends and mercenaries in the 'Grey Mouser' vein. I added a third recurring NPC, a female elven Wizard/Cleric/Theurge who usually played the role of their employer and occaisional damsel in distress. There was a friendly rivalry for her affections between them, and she served equally well as a common adventure hook, a mouthpiece for the GM to help them out when they were 'stuck' and an option for healing, support and magical protection, either through minor magic items or direct participation.

Adventures went smoothly and relatively quickly - so much so that I basically doubled the xp requirements to advance so that we could slow down and enjoy the play. I tend to put just a touch less magic in my campaigns anyway to keep it 'magical' anyway, and it worked out great.

That sounds fun!

Interesting point about XP! These guys are going to level quickly, because the encounters are averaging about 400xp - which is 200 each. Then, when you throw in traps, they're going to level pretty quickly. For example, they'll level after about 8 monster encounters & 2 traps (as a rough estimate).

But I'm OK with quick leveling. As a 2-PC party it's OK if they buff up pretty quickly.

6) I don't understand the rules very well for how/when to roll perception when two opposing sides initially meet.

See these examples:

a) Two orcs come out of the forest to suddenly attack the party as they're walking on the trail. Do I roll perception for ALL the participants, including the Orcs? Do I roll just for the party against the Orcs' stealth score?

b) Two PC's enter a door in a dungeon and walk into a room. Suddenly 3 skeletons rise from the floor and attack. Do I roll party perception checks against Skeleton stealth?

c) Two cheetahs are approaching a party of PC's in a flat plains. I assume nobody needs to roll perception since there's a lot of distance for everyone to see each other. Same with a long dungeon room or corridor if someone is pretty far away. I think.

Basically, I'm confused about WHO rolls perception - against whose stealth score.. and when!

Well, we had our initial session of PF last night! By the way, both guys are very experienced D&D players - but only one of them has any 3.0/3.5 experience. But they're good players.

They took a Half-Elf Ranger and an Elf Rogue. Since they're such a small party, I threw them a little extra starting cash. And I gave them a 20-point build.

I think our session went great! My biggest concern is healing though. The Ranger hasn't even been nicked yet, but the Rogue has TWICE been reduced down to nearly unconscious. So now BOTH of their healing potions are gone and they are only three encounters into the adventure.

Luckily (and I can't be too specific since they know of this forum) there should be some additional healing available for them to find.

But the two-man party went great! There was a lot of learning to do, and rust to shake off, so it was great to only have to focus on 1 PC at a time.

Here were some rookie mistakes:
*I allowed Skeletons to run 20' up to the PC's and then attack with both a scimitar and a claw. However, since they took a move action they should have only gotten ONE attack - right?

*The Rogue forgot a couple opportunities to Sneak Attack a flat-footed foe. He realized it afterwards and berated himself!

*I attacked the PC's with a pair of Orcs, but one of the PC's failed his perception roll. So in theory, I think he should have been surprised. But I failed to give the Orcs any kind of surprise round or give the Rogue any kind of flat-footed penalty.

Anyway - these were a few "learning opportunities" but overall the game was fun and we learned a lot.

George

So did the post above help?

Well, to be honest right after your post I got swamped prepping for our initial PF session (which occurred last night), so I haven't been able to get back to the monster enhancement rules.

I will probably try again today and repost some different stats tonight. I'll definitely use your instructions to help me.

Thanks for following up! This is a helpful community.

Keep in mind though, your two PCs should reasonably be able to handle a CR2 encounter quite easily as well, so long as one of them isnt incapacitated. In most cases... it's a matter of numbers (and by extension, the action economy) rather than killing power (which early monsters won't have, but that jerk barbarian that took power attack, cleave and a greatsword probably will.)

As for playing the more versatile (read, spellcasting) classes... I really wouldnt worry too much. At early levels, a specialist will be considerably more powerful. Druids dont come into their own for a few levels, and even then, a group of say, a fighter and rogue that play to their own strengths should be able to plow through most challenges thrown at them.

Thanks for the advice!

I'm intrigued by your statement that 2 PC's should be able to handle CR2 encounters. I assume you mean as the occasional really tough encounter, right? For the majority of encounters, I'm trying to stick to around the 400xp total.

PS: Interesting that you state Fighter and Rogue. My players are taking a Ranger & Rogue. My concern there is the lack of healing ability and the lack of channel energy against undead. Then again, they can buy healing potions for 50gp each.

Thanks everyone for the advice! Our first session is this coming Tuesday night.

We decided to go with 1 PC per player (no gestalt or anything). So we'll have a small party. I'm going to start them off with Crypt of the Everflame, which I'm modifying for 2 PC's.

I'm scaling down every encounter and every trap - and the treasure as well. In some cases, I'm reducing the number of monsters (e.g., 3 skeletons instead of 6). In other cases I'm reducing the power of monsters (there is one particular CR3 monster that I'm statting lower to be a CR1 monster).

To me, this still takes less time than producing my own stuff. After all, I get a nice town with the adventure. So that will become their home town. And I get a nicely done dungeon adventure. After Crypt, I may run them through Godsmouth Heresy.

If in doubt, I'm erring towards the side of easier encounters. I don't want to overwhelm them initially.

5) Please help me see if I understand how to modify a monster.

The appendices in the Bestiary are kind of confusing to me, but I muddled through them. Please take a look at this Shadow, modified from CR3 all the way down to CR1:

Shadow - unmodified:
CR3
HP 19 (3d8+6)
Medium Undead
Init +2; Darkvision 60’; Perception +8
AC15
HP19 (3d8+6)
Fort+3; Ref+3; Will+4
Incorporeal, channel resistance +2, undead traits
Fly 40’
Melee: Touch +4 (1d6 STR damage)
Create Spawn
Dex14, Int6, Wis12, Cha15
BAB+2; CMB+4; CMD17
Dodge, Skill Focus (Perception)
Skills: Fly+11; Perception+8; Stealth+8

Shadow - modified:
CR1
HP9 (d8+5)
Small Undead
Init +3; Darkvision 60’; Perception +8
AC13
Fort+3; Ref+3; Will+4
Incorporeal, channel resistance +2, undead traits
Fly 40’
Melee: Touch +3 (1d4 STR damage)
Create Spawn
Dex16, Int6, Wis12, Cha15
BAB+1; CMB+3; CMD16
Dodge, Skill Focus (Perception)
Skills: Fly+13; Perception+8; Stealth+12

The most critical changes:
*Changed Size to Small
*HP reduced (19 to 9)
*Initiative raised by +1 (due to DEX raise from being Small)
*AC reduced (15 to 13)
*Melee touch reduced from +5 to +3
*STR damage reduced from 1d6 to 1d4
*BAB, CMB, CMD all reduced by -1
*Fly increased by +2; Stealth increased by +4 (small size)

So does the 2nd set of stats look reasonable for a CR1 Shadow?

Thanks

I should point out though that your example of holy water doesn't include the material component in it.

Yep, good catch! I forgot about that.

Thanks, makes perfect sense. Appreciate it. :)

4) On the equipment cost table, it lists spells as costing: "Caster level x spell level x 10gp" (plus any additional noted expensive components).

So if you got a withering disease or terrible curse, a 5th level Cleric would only charge you 150gp to cure it? Is that correct?

Spell Level: 3
Caster Level: 5
Multiplier: 10
Equals: 150gp

And a first level spell cast by a 1st level caster would only cost 10gp by that same calculation.

Just wanted to make sure it's accurate.

EDIT: I would have thought the multiplier would have been 100, not 10. So for example, I think 1500gp is more reasonable than 150gp for Remove Curse or Remove Disease. I think 100gp is more reasonable than 10gp to get a Cleric to make holy water for you(or whatever).

Thanks for the responses! Actually QUITE helpful. :)

OK, new to PF. Instead of many, many questions I'll try to keep it at one ongoing thread.

Here are my first 3 questions:

1) When stocking your adventure, do you assign "Average Hit Points" per the Bestiary, or actually roll for hit points? My gut tells me I'd roll for tougher monsters and use average hp for numerous minions.

2) I'm trying to understand AOO. If you run up to an Ogre (10' reach) to attack him, does he automatically get an AOO? I'm asking because once you reach 2 squares away from him, you are now threatened by him. Then, when you close the gap into the final square (adjacent to him), you have left a threatened square. Doesn't this give him an AOO? So how does someone charge a monster with a 10' reach without being subjected to an AOO?

3) XP for traps/hazards: when is XP awarded for traps/hazards? I assume if you cleverly circumvent a trap, you get XP. But what if you fall into a pit trap, take damage, and scurry away afterwards with your pride and body wounded? Do you still get XP? What if you blindly trigger an arrow trap but the arrows whiz by and miss you? Do you get XP? What if you tumble down a mudslide and take 20 points of damage. XP?

Thanks

Where can I find such things?

Thanks,
George

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

Or you could try gestalt with just one character per player. That works pretty well.

Oh yah, the 3.5 "Unearth Arcana" gestalt rules, sweet idea

gestalt rules? What is that? I don't own UE.

I'm new to PF and I'll be GM'ing a game where I have two fellow players. I've never played PF or 3.0/3.5. Same with one of the players. The other player has played 3.0/3.5 but not PF.

So overall, we don't have a lot of experience except one guy.

Question: would it be easier/better to:

a) Have the players each run one PC (2-PC party), OR..

b) Have the players run 2 PC's each (4-PC party) so that it would be a lot easier to use pre-published materials

Here's what I think are the pros/cons:

Option (a) - 1 PC each:

Pros:
*combats (and the whole game) will go a lot more quickly
*it will be easier for the players to learn the game if they only have 1 PC each
*one of my players doesn't like running multiple PC's (although he will if he has to)

Cons:
*I'll have to customize a lot of the Module or AP that I use to make it work for small party (which may be challenging as a new GM)

Option (b) - 2 PC's each:

Pros:
*It will give the party more diverse abilities
*I can use modules as written and I can set up encounters in a more conventional way using the tables in the Core Rulebook

Cons:
*May be difficult for new players to master 2 classes
*One of my PC's isn't wild about running 2 PC's - in any type of RPG

Looking for advice! Thanks

How can 1 ED player be push around by charts. 1 ED had Metcric ton more chart than 3.5 or pathfinder (3.75)? I laughted so hard I almosted cried lollololololoolololololollololololololololololool

Glad I could entertain you!

Thanks everyone! I think I get it now. And yes - I was probably overthinking it.

I got caught up in all the tables and formulae. As a 1e player, things have always been more free-form so I'm probably getting too intimidated by the charts and such in PF. I just need to be a DM, like I have been in the "vintage" games I run.

I'll definitely use the tables as guidelines but will use my judgement as well.

George

I looked at Ezren in Kingmaker chapter ... 3, I think, and all his gear looked like it was more or less cherrypicked, and equalled WBL of his level.

If your PCs receive a lot of loot they can't use (and they're not good optimizers) then you may have to filter money back in.

Thanks for looking that up. :)

Bottom line is that I'll keep an eye on things and make sure the loot progression is about right. And I'll adjust as necessary.

But I'm still not clear on ONE little thing. If a 2nd level PC should have around 1000gp in loot, how would you count a +1 Longsword? Would you count it as a 2000gp item (since that is the price for a PC to purchase such an item) or as a 1000gp item (since that is what a PC could only sell it for)?

I'm sure that's spelled out somewhere. I just can't find it.

OriginalAragorn wrote:

I then went to the Bestiary and looked up their treasure, which is "Studded Leather, Falchion, 4 Javelins, and Other Treasure."

But the problem is this. When I add up the value of their listed treasure for 3 Orcs, I get this:
75gp = 3 suits of studded leather
225gp = 3 falchions
12gp = 12 javelins

So I'm already at 312gp of NPC Gear value for the 3 orcs. Meaning I'm already past the 260gp and without even adding in any coins or jewelry.

Am I erring somehow?

Nope -- only that your 260 is the average treasure for an encounter of level -- there's a reason that the rules warn you about using only NPCs as targets. :) Basically, the party does well here, and then fights an animal, ooze, undead or aberration next. (Not necessarily "next", but you get the idea).

So, for instance -- after these 3 Orcs, the next encounter is with the Orc Wolftrainer - he's got leather and a whip and the wolves, well, are wolves.

Cool. Thanks. I think I'm reading too much into precisely how much each encounter should have for treasure.

I should be more focused on the overall treasure haul for all encounters. My goal is that the PC's will have around 1000gp of treasure at the same time they're hitting 2000xp and leveling.

What is your take on the question about using gross value or resale value when computing treasure haul. So is that orc's falchion worth 75gp (price) or 37gp (resale) towards that 1000gp target for 2nd level PC's?

Not sure if this is relevant, but don't forget that they'll sell the equipment for half the listed price. I don't recall if the guidelines are supposed to reflect net gold, or retail gold.

That's another one of the things I'm trying to find out! :)

Question from Mr. Noob here.

I'm putting together an encounter with 3 orcs (CR 1/3), so the total CR is 1.

Their treasure says "NPC," so I went to Table 14-9 and looked up "Total GP Value" for a Level 1 NPC (since it's a CR1 encounter). It returned a value of 260gp.

So far, so good.

I then went to the Bestiary and looked up their treasure, which is "Studded Leather, Falchion, 4 Javelins, and Other Treasure."

But the problem is this. When I add up the value of their listed treasure for 3 Orcs, I get this:
75gp = 3 suits of studded leather
225gp = 3 falchions
12gp = 12 javelins

So I'm already at 312gp of NPC Gear value for the 3 orcs. Meaning I'm already past the 260gp and without even adding in any coins or jewelry.

Am I erring somehow?

Tilnar - thanks! Your reply is awesome and exactly the kind of practical advice I'm looking for.

I've played D&D 1e for years but never played more modern versions - and now I'm GM'ing. So it'll be a challenge.

As for the classes, I know my friend pretty well. I think he's going to opt for a Fighter-type and a Cleric. Although the druid is tempting, my buddy REALLY likes having as much healing as possible.

I really like your encounter ideas. Nice idea about using an Adept with some low level beasties, or the Hobgoblin with a young cave fisher. Nice!

Clearly, I need to spend more time in the appendices of the Bestiary looking at templates and such!

Figured I'd toss it out there one more time.

Mainly, just looking for the following:

1) For a party of 2 1st level Pc's, what would be a good XP level per encounter? I was thinking 200-300xp per encounter.

2) Any suggestions for good/fun encounters?

3) Would you give a small party extra coin or minor magic?

Thanks

Hi,

I'm getting ready to be a GM for a game with just myself and one friend. To avoid undue complexity (since we are both new to PF), he's only going to play 2 PC's. We'll start at 1st level.

My other friend is also going to join in about a month, when he gets back from vacation. And he's played 3.5 so he's familiar with the rules in some respects. But for now, it's just me and the one guy.

So.. my questions:

1. For 2 1st level PC's, what are good recommended CR levels for a party like that? It seems like CR 1/2 would be too easy (since 200xp is only 1 orc, or 2 kobolds, or 1 zombie). How would 300xp-encounters seem? So that could be 2 orcs, or 3 kobolds, etc. And for a really challenging encounter, maybe I could throw a 400-xp encounter at them.

2. Any suggestions for fun encounters?

3. If there are only 2 PC's, should I throw them some extra bling like extra starting money (for finer equipment) or a couple of Healing Potions?

Thanks!

I will always use the purchase price of something as the value I consider when creating a treasure. I do this because if I used the likely resale value, players could potentially get an item that is more powerful than they should be getting at their level.

EDIT: Or more good gear than I want to give them. I'm stingy with item drops though.

Thanks Dale! That is my inclination as well.

Does anyone else have a different approach?

When figuring out the wealth of a treasure horde (and/or the wealth of a PC), do you use Purchase price of a magic item or the Re-Sale price (50%)?

Hi there,

I’m trying to figure out the GM guidelines in Chapter 12, particularly about Placing Treasure. If I follow the guidelines on Table 12-5, it states that a party with APL2 (to use an example) should have 550gp of treasure per encounter for Medium progression.

So here are my questions:

1. When Table 12-5 says “Treasure per Encounter,” I assume I should just add up all the treasure I place and divide it by the total number of MONSTER encounters, and this should be close to the Treasure per Encounter.. right? Granted, some encounters will have 0 treasure and others will have a large horde. But the average should be 550gp (in my example of APL2, Medium Progression).

2. When I’m placing non-magical valuable items (such as Masterwork weapons and Jewelry/Gems), which value do I use when totaling the treasure horde amount: the Price or its Value to the PC’s? For a Masterwork Lt. Crossbow (which costs 335gp), would I use the 335gp as the value in the horde or 167gp (50% value – which the PC’s could sell it for)?

3. Same question with Magic Items. Chapter 15 says +1 Weapons are worth 2000gp, but a PC could only sell it for 1000gp. So which value is used when I try to arrive at the “Treasure per Encounter?”

I also have the same questions on Table 12-4 (Wealth by Level):
-Similar to the above question, is a +1 Weapon worth 2000gp or 1000gp? If I’m allowing a PC to start at 3rd level, they should have about 3000gp of wealth. So it seems pretty important to distinguish which value to use.

Thanks!