One of the players in my campaign is playing a rogue. Despite the book definition of Stealth indicating that:
You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.
He claims that he can take a move action at half speed while using Stealth, then take another move action at half speed in place of his standard action, thus effectively moving at his full speed without penalty.
I call shenanigans. What's your take on it?
Totally allowed. He IS moving at half speed for the round. He could have moved double that without running. He choose to go stealthy and only gets to move half.
Speed is how far you can move in a move action. For each move action he is taking he is only moving half his normal allowed speed.
Why would it be shenanigans? He's effectively using his two move actions for the round to move at half the speed he could with a normal double move.
Hm... half speed for two moves = 30 feet (normally)
Full speed for two moves = 60 feet (normally)
Where is the problem?
As others as said he is right. He made two move actions, both times using half normal speed. He did not run, attack or charge. He simply used both his actions as move actions.
He's moving more than half his base land speed in the round. Therefore, at least to my understanding, there should be a penalty to his Stealth roll.
He's moving more than half his base land speed in the round. Therefore, at least to my understanding, there should be a penalty to his Stealth roll.
No he is not. His normal speed for a single move is 30' his normal speed for a double move is 60 feet.
If he is just moving 15' per move action he is not moving more then half is normal speed.
He's moving more than half his base land speed in the round. Therefore, at least to my understanding, there should be a penalty to his Stealth roll.
Per move action he is not.
Look at it this way -- with you way you present it he should double move his full 60 feet since he's going to take the penalty either way.
Actually by moving more than his normal speed he'll take no penalty since the penalty only applies to moving greater than 1/2 your normal speed but less than your full normal speed.
OR if you impose the penalty anyways he should simply double move the full sixty since the penalty is going to be the same for moving 30 as it is for moving 60.
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The rules never say `...in the round`. They don`t care about the total DISTANCE moved in the round, they care about how FAST you are moving (any action moving you besides 5` steps is almost always expressed as a multiplier of your normal move action)... A Rogue could normally spend a move action to move half their normal speed and then TAKE A STANDARD ACTION in the rest of their turn... Spending two Move Actions is spending more of the round moving, it doesn`t mean he is moving faster while moving.
Your player moved half the distance (at half the speed) he could have with the actions he took, thus completely complying with letter and spirit of the rules. Now... if you start to talk about things like bonus Move Actions granted by Spells or abilities, I`d agree the RAI / RAW would start to get murky, but not in this case.
He claims that he can take a move action at half speed while using Stealth, then take another move action at half speed in place of his standard action, thus effectively moving at his full speed without penalty.
I call shenanigans. What's your take on it?
Hey there!
Actually, yes he can do this! You can swap your standard action for a move action. Please see the Combat chapter text following below:
Move Action
A move action allows you to move up to your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time. See Table: Actions in Combat for other move actions.You can take a Move Action in place of a Standard Action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.
What my esteemed colleagues are trying to tell you is that, if you use a Move Action to move you can move up to your listed speed per Move Action. This is then modified by things like terrain or skills like Stealth.
So one move action = 30 ft this turn
Two move actions = 30 + 30 = 60 ft this turn
one stealth move action = 15 ft this turn
two stealth move actions = 15 ft + 15 ft = 30 ft this turn
*30 ft is the example number
**You can actually move much farther, but that would involve the Run Action (which is a full round action, and you can't stealth)
Does that make sense?
Completely 100% unquestionably legit.
Normal human with a speed of 30 can use his move action to move and his standard action to move another 30 for a total of 60 feet.
Stealthed human with a speed of 30 can use his move action to move 15 and his standard action to move another 15 for a total of 30. He's not getting away with anything and is still moving at half speed.
My elven inquisitor with the travel domain and the elf alt racial to ignore the penalty for moving beyond half speed relies substantially on this. Of Course for him this means I stealth move around 70-75ft on a double move.
It's totally legit.
I am buying a lotto ticket. The internet has spoken with a single voice. ;)
The Desert Shadow trait allows full speed movement for no penalty when stealthy as does the fast stealth Rogue talent.
But yeh the others are all correct..see we can agree on something.
Yeah, the poster obviously has an extreme handle on the rules so let's throw out a bunch of corner cases that break from the rules using race/trait and class features.
Thanks guys.
Yeah, the poster obviously has an extreme handle on the rules so let's throw out a bunch of corner cases that break from the rules using race/trait and class features.
Thanks guys.
Pardon me..but as the OP was talking about a rogue I see nothing wrong with pointing out that a Rogue has the ability within core at 2nd level to ignore the speed restrictions on stealth altogether..it is certainly not a corner case.
Well, fair enough. I accept the judgement of my peers. : )
Hi,
i have a concern about a Double Move with half speed to avoid the -5 penalty. Why?
Look at:
Swift Tracker (Ex): Beginning at 8th level, a ranger can move at his normal speed while using Survival to follow tracks without taking the normal –5 penalty. He takes only a –10 penalty (instead of the normal –20) when moving at up to twice normal speed while tracking.So if i read it right the penalty for tracking is not based on move actions per round but on the value of speed itself.
Otherwise the second sentence (bold) would make no sense.
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Hi,
i have a concern about a Double Move with half speed to avoid the -5 penalty. Why?
Look at:
Swift Tracker (Ex): Beginning at 8th level, a ranger can move at his normal speed while using Survival to follow tracks without taking the normal –5 penalty. He takes only a –10 penalty (instead of the normal –20) when moving at up to twice normal speed while tracking.So if i read it right the penalty for tracking is not based on move actions per round but on the value of speed itself.
Otherwise the second sentence (bold) would make no sense.
Different set of rules. Tracking isn't related to stealth.
But both are related to speed. ;)
@Hargor: Penalties to skill checks while moving aren't consistent. The penalties to Survival checks for fast movement are separate and unrelated to penalties to Stealth for fast movement.
Look at:
Swift Tracker (Ex): Beginning at 8th level, a ranger can move at his normal speed while using Survival to follow tracks without taking the normal –5 penalty. He takes only a –10 penalty (instead of the normal –20) when moving at up to twice normal speed while tracking.So if i read it right the penalty for tracking is not based on move actions per round but on the value of speed itself.
Otherwise the second sentence (bold) would make no sense.
I agree -- that sentence makes no sense. Unless it's talking about tracking and sprinting at the same time?
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Hi,
i have a concern about a Double Move with half speed to avoid the -5 penalty. Why?
Look at:
Quote:
Swift Tracker (Ex): Beginning at 8th level, a ranger can move at his normal speed while using Survival to follow tracks without taking the normal –5 penalty. He takes only a –10 penalty (instead of the normal –20) when moving at up to twice normal speed while tracking.
So if i read it right the penalty for tracking is not based on move actions per round but on the value of speed itself.
Otherwise the second sentence (bold) would make no sense.
I think that the rules for tracking are written differently because you use it as part of local or overland movement, not in a tactical (combat) situation. You use stealth in tactical situations. The successful Survival check DC makes you able to follow tracks for one mile moving at half your overland or local movement rate or with a penalty to move faster. I guess you could track in combat, but why would you?
So, in the end, tracking is based on the speed itself because you are working in a timeframe of minutes or hours and distances of miles not rounds and 5' squares.
That's why I think there is a difference.
Andy