I'm preparing Escape from Old Korvosa - and I blame me if I'm wrong but Glorio's aims are higly contradictory:
In particular he pursues 3 main objective:
#1 He wants the SCs to get away with Neolandus (and Orsini). Therefore he tells them about the entrance to the Vivified Labyrinth and how to manage its rotation.
#2 He sends Vimanda down there, too, as he hopes the SC will finish her off.
#3 But the most important objective is: to keep his real identity a secret. that is the conditio sine qua non of all his plans and plots.
Yeah. And that's the point where the problems emerge.
Down in the Labyrinth are at least two significant hints about his identity: the "temple" with the statue and the temple guardian. even if the guardian will be in his human disguise (something he has no real reason for as he does not expect any visitors), he will attack the SCs when they enter the temple, probably die in combat - and by revealing his true form in the moment of death he will suggest them that Glorio, too, may not be the one he pretends to be.
Same with object #2: The fullfillment of this wish clearly endangers - if not directly sabotages - objective #3. Vimanda dies, and *poof* hey, that's a cute little foxy lady! wait, that's already the second of one the most evil races of the universe! never mind, let's search Neolandus and then let's get out of here.
Yeah, I don't think so. And I think, neither Glorio.
Ergo: With sending the SCs down in the labyrinth Glorio has to reckon with killing the SCs by his own hands to keep his secret a secret - and thus not only endangering objective #3 but even objective #1.
so why, oh why would he put the most important thing in his life at risk by sending the SCs down in the labyrinth? It just doesn't make any sense. For such a highly intelligent being as he is, for such a talented schemer and plotter as he is - this sounds utterly dumb.
Okay, you could say: He bets on the stupidity of the SCs. And of course there is a chance that they will not put one and one together and slay some of his kin and not even grow suspicious about the housefather of this place. But, come on, that's really desperate.
As I see it, nearly everything would be better than sending the SCs in the labyrinth. Sure, by simply freeing Neolandus and Orsini at his own discretion he fears loss of face among his family - and its consequences. But even if that resumes in some heavy confrontation with his own kin it would stay in the family. It's not a heart warming outlook. But it is better than letting someone reveal his very secret.
I hope I have just overlooked something, but I don't think so. Any thoughts?
Maybe I'm forgetting something from the module, but I'm not sure Glorio is all that invested in seeing the PCs (what are SCs?) escape with Neolandus and Orsini. I thought he just wanted to pit them against Vimanda, and whoever dies, it's a bonus for him.
That's how I played him, anyway. Once you get sent into the Labyrinth, you don't live to tell about it.
SC = Player Character in German, I think. (Spieler-Charakter)
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It's been a while, but IIRC as written he doesn't really intend for Neolandus to get away. His real intent was to clean house using the PCs, as his sister was becoming more of a threat both against his power and his life(them Rakshasas!).
At least that's how it played out for us. He fully planned on letting the PCs and Vimanda duke it out along with everything else down there, then let the other rakshasas in the manor throw themselves at whoever survived, after which he would kill off whoever survived that fight while they were hurting.
Didn't go as planned for him of course, but hey. ;)
Sorry for the "SC", it was about 1 a.m. in the morning, and hogarth is right, it's "PC".
Hm, the module says (p. 34): "Bahor does indeed want Queen Ileosa out of power, and he hopes to accomplish this goal by using seneschal Kalepopolis when the time is right so that he can step in to take her place. [...] Currently, Bahor is unsure how to proceed—he certainly doesn’t want to risk his own life directly opposing the queen, yet at the same time he knows something must be done before her power grows too great. As it turns out, the PCs may be his salvation.
Bahor uses detect thoughts and the conversation itself to judge the PCs’ position on things. He suspects they’re here to rescue Vencarlo, Neolandus, or both, but he certainly can’t just hand them over without appearing weak before his minions (an act he fears would give Vimanda the support she’s seeking to seize control of the family)."
Thus Glorio is fine by the PCs freeing Neolandus, it is his only chance to get the Neolandus wheel in motion. In fact, in this thread: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/adventurePa th/crimsonThrone/escapeFromOldKorvosaGMReference&page=1&source=sear ch#32 Charles Evans 25 wrote:
"Bahor wants the PCs to get away with Neolandus. Neolandus has information which Bahor hopes is damaging to Ileosa, and right now Bahor is worried about how powerful the Queen is getting and what she is up to. He wants Neolandus and his information out there, and if the PCs want to act on that information against Ileosa, so much the better. If the PCs kill Vimanda while they're at it, that's a bonus on top; sure he'd like that to happen- in fact he couldn't resist the temptation to set up the situation precisely so that it might- but his top priority is getting Neolandus and his information out of the House Arkona dungeons. The PCs can even have Vencarlo as well, if they want, whilst they're at it." And then James Jacobs replies: "Charles has it pretty much right in the previous post as regards the complex situation that the Arkonas have woven for themselves. The PCs don't really have to kill Bahor, in any event: they just need to get out with the two prisoners."
And in another thread James writes: "Even then, Bahor's not supposed to be a combat encounter..."
So the module does not intend that Glorio sweeps in after the PC/Vimanda battle to finish whoever survives it. He just wants the PCs to escape - and that gets in the way with objective #3.
Well, if Word of God says that's Glorio's plan, then I guess that's that. If you reach a point in your game where the PCs have rescued Neolandus, killed Vimanda, and deduced Glorio's true nature, then I suppose Glorio would have to go, "Crap. I really screwed this whole business up." And try to kill them after all.
But I think it's highly unlikely that events will play out exactly as Glorio plans. And if the GM (through Neolandus and Venclaro) is insistent that the PCs leave Korvosa immediately, they might not have to face Glorio at all (they can escape in the hidden barge).
Spieler-Charakter is awesome. I'm going to suggest that change for my group. :)
Sorry for the "SC", it was about 1 a.m. in the morning, and hogarth is right, it's "PC".
Hm, the module says (p. 34): "Bahor does indeed want Queen Ileosa out of power, and he hopes to accomplish this goal by using seneschal Kalepopolis when the time is right so that he can step in to take her place. [...] Currently, Bahor is unsure how to proceed—he certainly doesn’t want to risk his own life directly opposing the queen, yet at the same time he knows something must be done before her power grows too great. As it turns out, the PCs may be his salvation.
Bahor uses detect thoughts and the conversation itself to judge the PCs’ position on things. He suspects they’re here to rescue Vencarlo, Neolandus, or both, but he certainly can’t just hand them over without appearing weak before his minions (an act he fears would give Vimanda the support she’s seeking to seize control of the family)."Thus Glorio is fine by the PCs freeing Neolandus, it is his only chance to get the Neolandus wheel in motion. In fact, in this thread: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/adventurePa th/crimsonThrone/escapeFromOldKorvosaGMReference&page=1&source=sear ch#32 Charles Evans 25 wrote:
"Bahor wants the PCs to get away with Neolandus. Neolandus has information which Bahor hopes is damaging to Ileosa, and right now Bahor is worried about how powerful the Queen is getting and what she is up to. He wants Neolandus and his information out there, and if the PCs want to act on that information against Ileosa, so much the better. If the PCs kill Vimanda while they're at it, that's a bonus on top; sure he'd like that to happen- in fact he couldn't resist the temptation to set up the situation precisely so that it might- but his top priority is getting Neolandus and his information out of the House Arkona dungeons. The PCs can even have Vencarlo as well, if they want, whilst they're at it." And then James Jacobs replies: "Charles has it pretty much right in the previous post as regards the complex situation...
My PC's aren't here yet still in EoA, but I have given serious thought to how this plot will play out. What it really comes down to is whether or not the PC's learn Bahor's true nature. If the PC's don't then Bahor can sit back and watch the wheels turn. I think it highly unlikely that the PC's won't suspect the truth and that Vimanda will probably tell them out right if it looks like they will defeat her in the labrynth. Even if the PC's know the truth I only see Bahor reacting violently immedietly if threatened directly, or he is certain the PC's will let his families secret out. He is more likely to a) monitor the situation and act accordingly to facilitate his plan to eventually take the crown for himself, or b)attempt to negotiate a settlement with the PC's then betray them later on. Of course, if both of these actions fail, then a pre-emptive strike is most likely necessary.
@Gonturan: you're welcome :)
b2t: Walter, I think it is more than probably that the PCs at least suspect the true nature of Glorio once the first dead raksasha is revealed (that would probably be the one in the temple). And we all know what happens when PCs have suspicions...
I mean, there is a rakshasa temple down there, guarded by a rakshasa. it is not very likely that it would be there if the guardian was the only rakshasa - it wouldn't make any sense. but even then Glorio's plan is so buggy that it will reveal his very secret: If the PCs kill Vimanda as hoped - *poof* there is all of a sudden a rakshasa down there. and that would not arouse further questions and suspicions? a rakshasa is an evil mastermind, it is not some average
monster you place here and there to keep guard. and it neither is very likely that it is in the labyrinth by accident - or that it will serve a human master. as I said: by sending a) the PCs down in the labyrinth and b) Vimanda after the PCs glorio torpedos his most important aim. and that sucks.
"Even if the PC's know the truth I only see Bahor reacting violently immedietly if threatened directly, or he is certain the PC's will let his families secret out."
Sorry, but I disagree. keeping the secret of his true nature is the foundation of all his plans and powers. He cannot let it happen that someone gets away after finding out the truth - and he would be a complete idiot if he expected the PCs to keep his secret. By the way Glorio's stat block says otherwise, too: "Bahor only stays behind to fight to the death if his enemies show that they know of his true nature—allowing anyone to escape his clutches with this knowledge is the thing he fears the most."
okay, so how to fix this situation? here is an idea: at first strike the whole temple. and vimanda is not send into the labyrinth, either. so Glorio's plan is just that: let the PCs free neolandus and orsini and let them flee all together. It is straight forward, but there is no chance to find out about his true nature.
everything would be fine if not vimanda decided on her own to go down there and manipulate the PCs to kill glorio. she expects that after that fight the group will be easy to finish off - and all witnesses to the Arkona secret will be dead. When Glorio finds out about that it is too late to hinder his sister, she is already on her way.
It is not very sophisticated anymore, but at least it will work. kind of annoys me that I have to make Vimanda dumb enough to risk the whole family secret, though. but I guess you could justify that: after years of being in the second row she is greedy enough to go all in. either she succeeds and wins the control over the Arkonas. Or, if she looses that final fight against the PCs, she has at least the satisfaction that glorio went down some seconds earlier. what do you think? have I overlooked something?
This might be a longshot, but what about the Raktavarna ("Edge of Anarchy" p.86)? It has a "memory poison" ability -- perhaps Glorio has one of these creatures, and he plans to use it as his failsafe if/when the PCs discern his true nature.
He could try to bluff them into some kind of blood oath: cut his own hand to prove that the blade isn't poisoned; then when they cut themselves, poof! Secret? What secret?
Exeter -
I don't disagree with your assesment. I do feel that Glorio would be open to negotiating a settlement with the PC (to betray them later) to obtain his other stated goals.
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He could try to bluff them into some kind of blood oath: cut his own hand to prove that the blade isn't poisoned; then when they cut themselves, poof! Secret? What secret?
But would he cut every PC's hand? And I don't know how much game mechanics should come into his planning, but I'm pretty sure he would expect at least one of these relatively powerful mortals to resist the Raktavarna poison. Right?
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I'm preparing Escape from Old Korvosa - and I blame me if I'm wrong but Glorio's aims are higly contradictory:
I'm also worried about running that part of the campaign, for the same reasons you are. Right now I am planning to run it like this, but I fear it won't be bulletproof and I might need to prepare more fully:
- I expect the PC's to infiltrate the house by stealth, but be noticed by some of the Rakshasas servants above and battle them: then realizing their true natures when they die.
- Then I expect the players to go in super-meta-gaming mode and deduce that ALL Arkonas are probably Rakshasas.
- When they meet Bahor, I'll have him pretend to be a regular human, being used as a puppet public figure by the Rakshasas controlling his family: the leader of which is Vimanda, masquerading as his sister. He will ask the PC's to please kill this vile fiend Vimanda, so that leadership of the Arkona family can finally come back into the hands of humans.
- Vimanda will face the PC's in the labyrinth, underestimating them and expecting to kill them all in there.
I'm not totally satisfied with this, but basically it seems I am stuck between 2 undesirable realities:
- If Bahor sees that the PC's are very strong and relatively easily defeated his henchmen, he would fear he wouldn't be able to kill them. So he would risk his family's secret coming out, but trying to pretend he's not "one of them". While crappy, that fate seems better than death.
- If Bahor sees that the PC's only barely managed to survive a fight against the other Rakshasas, he would try to finish them off, but I am worried that this would lead to a TPK... something even less desirable.
Of course, another option I am considering is simply making it so that Bahor is either simply absent from the manor when the PC's invade it; while it removes a potentially interesting RP scene from the adventure, it might make the story more believable as a whole.
But would he cut every PC's hand? And I don't know how much game mechanics should come into his planning, but I'm pretty sure he would expect at least one of these relatively powerful mortals to resist the Raktavarna poison. Right?
Like I said, it's a longshot.
But here's the thing, folks: this sort of character motivation question is great for GMs to explore, but it's very unlikely to ever become an issue for PCs. It's what TVtropes would call "Fridge Logic"--a flaw in reasoning that won't become apparent until long after the plot has been resolved.
From the PCs' perspective: Glorio will ask them to do something dangerous, possibly suicidal; as they escape by the skin of their teeth, they will uncover a terrible secret about Glorio; then they will confront and kill him (or escape the city to confront him at a later date).
No PC I've ever played with would pause to ask, "Why did he send us down there in the first place?" Players look forward, not back.
Just ran the meeting with Bahor myself last night. Went through the dialog with all the bluff/sense motive about the queen. No one in the party really had the sense motive required to pick up on it. Towards the end of the convo, the pcs thought they had it figured out that he was trying to slip them the info without carnochan or other servants hearing, as if someone was spying for the queen. So I played off of that and had him more bluntly state that he wasn't sure if his staff should be trusted, and he is hiding the seneschal and vencarlo in the basement "for safekeeping". He apologizes for the inconveinience, but if they could sneak in, rescue those two, as if it was a stealth rescue without his knowledge, all sides would benefit. He gives them the info on how to get into the labrynth, and still sends his sister in, but that was the best way I could think of sorting that situation out in a somewhat logical fashion. He also can claim ignorance of what they really are, as vimada could have killed his "wife" and taken her place.
It doesn't make logical sense if you assume an equal amount of investment in the three points.
Instead of the logical untruth of 1 + 1 + 1 = 2
you have 0.01+0.5+1.49 =2
Basically preservation of his secret identity is paramount. His sister's death is a convenience. Sending mortal twerps to their death is barely worth the breath it takes to send them away.
The longer the PC's hang out with him the less solid his disguise is (they must go away without a fuss), and only a great fool would assume that he can get the best of 4 or more armed thugs in a toe-to-toe fair fight. Besides direct confrontation is just not his style...he's a crime boss and a cold calculating non-mortal.
His sister is eventually going to elevate from a mere nuisance to a pest so letting her have a fair fight with the PC's will make his life easier in dealing with her. Having her limp back with a punctured lung, broken hip or nearly dead is just icing on the cake!
His labyrinth is a masterwork thing of deadly grace and beauty (in his mind) so sending the PC's into the sausage meat grinder with smiles on their sheep-like faces is just a duh-no-brainer. It's not like he'll ever see them again...owait...
It's been...sheesh two years since I ran this AP...but for me I had Bahor run along the lines of a double crossing James Bond-ish type villain. He never intends for the PC's to escape his labyrinth (and he has good reason to believe so given the trope I draped on him), but he does desire his meddlesome sister to potentially be "solved" by the PC's. The infiltration of his labyrinth and subsequent escape of Neolandus is really quite far from his brilliant mind. The curse of hubris (heck even Emperor Palpatine boffed up and he was a mastermind too).
"(Scott Evil: 'Wait, aren't you even going to watch them? They could get away!') "No, no, no. I'm going to leave them alone and not actually witness them dying. I'm just gonna assume it all went to plan. What?" - Dr. Evil
Some good ideas in here.
My concern is that all the Rakshasa will know every move/thought the PCs have:
A) Bahor will use his 'Detect Thoughts' special attack/ability on the PCs to know if they suspect his true origin. (I'm guessing this ability is "at-will" so if the target makes his save, Bahor just tries again and again...)
B) Bahor (and Vimanda) uses his third eye ability to spy on the PCs, especially if they accept his Ring of Evasion gift.
C) Vimanda has her Raktavarna spy. So as long as the "dagger" is still with the party, Vimanda knows all the plans they are making - especially if Bahor has sent the PCs down into the labyrinth after her.
So, the plot (as written) should go:
Bahor makes a deal for the PCs to go down into the labyrinth. He can watch their every move from the Ring of Evasion.
Vimanda is watching their every move from the Raktavarna/dagger. She disguises as Vencarlo and bluffs (using detect thoughts) them to return to the palace to kill Bahor.
Bahor knows this (ring) and is also prepared. He blows her cover to win them back.
Now Bahor has to kill Vimanda (with or without help from PCs) and then has to kill the PCs because they probably realize his Rakshasa secret (detect thoughts again).
Is this about right?
I'm thinking when it all comes down to the meeting, Bahor will magic a mook to look like him and think he is him (the human Glorio) and go with the my sister's been acting wierd and stuffs wrong plan. He will be scrying via a Raktavarna necklace on the mook. From there he's going to paint the picture that Vimanda is not who she says she is, and that she had been away earlier (during EoA) and that she had been acting funny after visiting a male suitor in the city proper (My pcs were heavily dedicated to finding and questioning her, and where told she was "unavailable" and that no one knew where she went. He'll use this as his hook that she was replaced during that time, and ever since she's been in the basement often leading the idea that she made the labrynth and is the villian.... Thats my plan... Also Bahor wants them to kill her and get Neolandis out so he can replace him at a later convenient time...
I'm going to play him as looking at this as the end game, if he can replace the Seneschal around the time that he becomes the new king/ruler then he is pretty much eternal ruler of the city as he can keep replacing the next ones (hell be the first king to have children rule after him, pulling a highlander and just replace the "kids" as they get the right age and he will "die" off. So if the Arkona family goes down in the meantime it's ok because he's has moved on and had his thugs in his guild grabb all the real loot before the city takes it.
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Two things that you should consider:
- the characters know that the fox headed creature is a Rakshasha?
Knowledge (Planes):
a) Identify a creature's planar origin DC 20
b) Identify a monster's abilities and weaknesses DC 10+CR
A Rakshashais a outsider, so you need a DC 20 knowledge check to identify Vimanda race.
- She is shapechanger. Nothing in the creature description or the subtype description say that she would revert to her rakshasha for when slain.
A few shapechangers revert to a specific form when slain, a few stay in the altered form at least for a time.
So Glorio can think that his family secret will not be discovered by "ignorant peasants" like the PC, especially if you follow Steward suggestion and he give them a red erring with the idea that his sister has been replaced recently.
She is shapechanger. Nothing in the creature description or the subtype description say that she would revert to her rakshasha for when slain.
Can someone verify this (point out the rule)? This will make a huge difference.
She is shapechanger. Nothing in the creature description or the subtype description say that she would revert to her rakshasha for when slain.Can someone verify this (point out the rule)? This will make a huge difference.
I couldn't find an offical ruling so I will suggest someone put on the "ask JJ board". Otherwise, I would say it is up to each individual DM for his campaign.
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I couldn't find an offical ruling so I will suggest someone put on the "ask JJ board". Otherwise, I would say it is up to each individual DM for his campaign.She is shapechanger. Nothing in the creature description or the subtype description say that she would revert to her rakshasha for when slain.Can someone verify this (point out the rule)? This will make a huge difference.
The only related rule I could find is a 3.5. FAQ that say that if you use the shapechange spell you don't revert to your true until the spell end.
I think it is decidely the DM realm to rule if the shapechanger change back, and that it could be ruled differently for each kind of creature.
I will post a question for JJ if no one has already done it.
JJ opinion is that the shapechangers always revert to a "true" form.
Darn - because if they did not revert, there are no "holes" in the plot line (as indicated by the opening post).
For example:
If the PCs go down into the Vivified Labyrinth and kill the Rakshasa in the temple (D24: Avidexu) or Vimanda, and they DON'T revert to their true form, then the only (subtle) clue to their true identity are the statues and exotic Vudra decor.
I know it says Vimanda will attempt to disguise herself as Vencarlo and attempt to convince them that Bahor sent them down into the Labyrinth to die (page 50).
It also says Vimanda is attractive and not afraid to use it to her advantage (page 49).
As an alternative, she could approach the (male) PCs in the Labyrinth as Melyia Arkona. She could play the "damsel in distress", stating her ruthless brother sent her down in the labyrinth to die as well. She can help them escape (or even to find their friends) but only if they help her kill Bahor.
Ultimately, the scenario would be the same (PCs confront Bahor with Vimanda), but Vimanda would not have to worry about Bahor blowing her cover as a disgused Vencarlo and winning the PCs back to his side.
Of coarse, Vimanda would betray them after they have killed Bahor, attacking the group while they are low on resources/health. This way she wins on all accounts (the Rakshasa secret is safe is she kills all witnesses to the shapechanges, AND she is now the new Head of the House).
Thoughts?
regarding the revealing of the true form after death: on page 61 stands "In his death, Purusav was revealed to be a tiger-headed monstrosity with backward-bending hands." So I fear that option is none...
I've come to a solution (it's a mix of my suggestions in this thread and Sethious's alienated wife idea) for my own and in two weaks my group will probably finish EfOK without recognizing that there were any plot holes.
But it really annoys me that this module is so flawed at its very core. There are some discussions about "7 days" and plot holes in this forum, I started one by myself, and as far as I remember I read a thread about "Skeletons" being somehow ill-designed as well (I did not recognize any plot wholes during my first reading of this module but who knows what will come up during the preparation phase). So I hope at least "History" will be without bad surprises. I really, really like CotCT, and my players love it. But I, too, really, really dislike that I have to clean up stuff the writers should have done. That's somewhat of a downturner.
My PCs ruined all my best laid plans...
As soon as the PCs got into the Labyrinth, they pulled the lever once (briefly explored), then pulled the lever a second time; bringing them right to Sivit (area: E20) and rescued Vencarlo.
Vimanda has her Raktavarna reporting this to her, so she knows she'll have to drop her Vencarlo disguise.
The text doesn't specifically say so, but I'm guessing she has tortured/teased/etc Vencarlo in her Melyia Arkona form, so that option is out (see my previous post).
I suppose she could disguise herself as a (beautiful) noble-woman, captured by the Arkona's, and still plead with the PCs (and now Vencarlo) to kill Glorio. (After what Vencarlo has been through at the hands of the Arkona's - this might just work).
Or she could just observe the PCs, who will now head straight for Neolandus, thanks to the help of Vencarlo. This could give Vimanda the opportunity to wait until their return, hiding directly behind the illusionary wall (area: E1) for a surprise attack. If I wanted to be really nasty, she could have previously manipulated the Labyrinth so that area E5 is facing area E2, giving her a handy Heal spell for when the battle gets ugly.
Thoughts?
My PCs ruined all my best laid plans...
As soon as the PCs got into the Labyrinth, they pulled the lever once (briefly explored), then pulled the lever a second time; bringing them right to Sivit (area: E20) and rescued Vencarlo.
Vimanda has her Raktavarna reporting this to her, so she knows she'll have to drop her Vencarlo disguise.
The text doesn't specifically say so, but I'm guessing she has tortured/teased/etc Vencarlo in her Melyia Arkona form, so that option is out (see my previous post).
I suppose she could disguise herself as a (beautiful) noble-woman, captured by the Arkona's, and still plead with the PCs (and now Vencarlo) to kill Glorio. (After what Vencarlo has been through at the hands of the Arkona's - this might just work).
Or she could just observe the PCs, who will now head straight for Neolandus, thanks to the help of Vencarlo. This could give Vimanda the opportunity to wait until their return, hiding directly behind the illusionary wall (area: E1) for a surprise attack. If I wanted to be really nasty, she could have previously manipulated the Labyrinth so that area E5 is facing area E2, giving her a handy Heal spell for when the battle gets ugly.
Thoughts?
How did they fare against Sivit? Was it a bit of a challenge or did they steam-roll her? Since the Raktavarna was relaying that event to Vimand that could be an indication as to whether or not Vimanda would fight the PC's or try to get them to take down her "dear" brother.
If these "nobodys" have cake-walked through the labyrinth they could be good allies (might be interesting to have her support through the rest of the campaign provided they are useful in cementing her control of things in Old Korvosa and beyond), but if they seem weakened or taxed by their encounters she should definitely play things to the hilt. Having her hiding behind the illusory wall and within reach of healing could be her best shot.
But it really annoys me that this module is so flawed at its very core. There are some discussions about "7 days" and plot holes in this forum, I started one by myself, and as far as I remember I read a thread about "Skeletons" being somehow ill-designed as well (I did not recognize any plot wholes during my first reading of this module but who knows what will come up during the preparation phase). So I hope at least "History" will be without bad surprises. I really, really like CotCT, and my players love it. But I, too, really, really dislike that I have to clean up stuff the writers should have done. That's somewhat of a downturner.
As someone who ran CoCT I'd just add that as much as I worried about some of the plot holes most of the time my players didn't really catch on or didn't care enough to point it out. I feel much of the concern of plot holes comes from GM knowledge of each adventure's extensive background. Players aren't necessarily going to get all of that. The only real incident where I had it came up was this (Bahor's offer). At the time I had thought to think of something that makes a bit more sense but in the end I actually went with the way the adventure and though there was some disbelief I just portrayed Bahor as a smug bastard who enjoyed watcing folks jump through rings of fire. Other than that I chopped and condensed a lot (History and Scarwall particularly) but I didn't feel like I had to make any huge plot adjustments. But yeah the Arkona bit was my least favourite part of the whole AP it just didn't feel right.
Wyrd, I know what you mean, Gonturan has mentioned something like that before, and yes, you both have point. But. It's a weak point. My group writes a really detailed diary and talks about it, and at least one of my players gives a lot of thought to NPCs actions and motives. And I don't want to be caught with my pants down.
But even if it wasn't that way: The argument "that's stuff the players won't likely realize" is still a poor one. I mean, we do not talk about some fan/amateur written adventure. it is a professional product, and I bought it with money. And if that comes into play i can expect a plot without holes. Don't get me wrong: I am a big fan of Paizo and its products, I think they are on top of the industry. But I wish they would have given some parts of CotCT one more rebrush to even things out.
But even if it wasn't that way: The argument "that's stuff the players won't likely realize" is still a poor one. I mean, we do not talk about some fan/amateur written adventure. it is a professional product, and I bought it with money. And if that comes into play i can expect a plot without holes. Don't get me wrong: I am a big fan of Paizo and its products, I think they are on top of the industry. But I wish they would have given some parts of CotCT one more rebrush to even things out.
Fair enough. Groups and players will vary. For what its worth my group was pretty good for tracking clues, info on NPCs, being involved with the setting and such. Never felt like I got 'caught'.
I do think many of the plot holes in the adventures are almost a result of the AP structure. Many of the overly convoluted backgrounds seem to be a result of authors needing to shoehorn in various intermediate villains to pad out the adventure and add the needed encounters. The Arkonas seem to a result of this but the Labyrinth was mostly fun when I ran it. Though the Arkonas could be become a bigger issue in adventures after CoF depending on the PCs actions. Logic gets stretched sometimes but not stretched too far (usually).
I've come to a solution (it's a mix of my suggestions in this thread and Sethious's alienated wife idea) for my own and in two weaks my group will probably finish EfOK without recognizing that there were any plot holes.
FYI finished up EFOK a couple of weeks together and that story worked out pretty well on my end. The party had a real rough time of it, lost a member to Sivit, and got split during the fight. (The rogue pulled a lever to break off the fight because it was going badly, but the rage prophet jumped through after Sivit and managed to kill her the next round). This split the party. Seperate, they both encountered Vencarlo (one being Vimada). When both groups met up, there were two Vencarlos. After some fun roleplaying and a pitched battle they rescued the senechal and bolted with the vessel in the cave. The party is of the mindset that Glorio is one of the good guys at the moment, so everything is going "just as planned" for him in my campaign. I plan on having him reappear in Crown of Fangs at some point, but I have a bit of time to figure out exactly what kind of role I want him to play.
How did they fare against Sivit? Was it a bit of a challenge or did they steam-roll her? Since the Raktavarna was relaying that event to Vimand that could be an indication as to whether or not Vimanda would fight the PC's or try to get them to take down her "dear" brother.
If these "nobodys" have cake-walked through the labyrinth they could be good allies (might be interesting to have her support through the rest of the campaign provided they are useful in cementing her control of things in Old Korvosa and beyond), but if they seem weakened or taxed by their encounters she should definitely play things to the hilt. Having her hiding behind the illusory wall and within reach of healing could be her best shot.
Once again, my players ruined any plans I may have had (they seem to do that often...hahahah):
Luck was with them against Sivit. I used her Darkness spell too late in the battle (it was a real killer against everyone except the party's half-orc - the only one with darkvision).
After rescuing Vencarlo, he guided them directly to Neolandus in room E21. The party took the bust-in-the-door approach and went toe-to-toe with Senshiir (Beatific One). My party is melee heavy (magic light) and Senshiir kicked some *ss! (Disarming, tripping and grappling really threw the party for a loop). After a whooping 26 rounds of battle, they finally defeated her - using almost every single resource and spell they had!
(P.S.: the group said this was the most exciting battle they have ever had with these characters!)
So, while I could have Vimanda waiting in ambush - and likely TPK the entire party - what fun is that? Even disguised, she might be able to convince them to attack Bahor, but that would most likely end up a TPK as well.
Is there any reason I should even bring Vimanda in at this point? They still have to battle the Enormous Reefclaw (D23) to escape.
How did they fare against Sivit? Was it a bit of a challenge or did they steam-roll her? Since the Raktavarna was relaying that event to Vimand that could be an indication as to whether or not Vimanda would fight the PC's or try to get them to take down her "dear" brother.
If these "nobodys" have cake-walked through the labyrinth they could be good allies (might be interesting to have her support through the rest of the campaign provided they are useful in cementing her control of things in Old Korvosa and beyond), but if they seem weakened or taxed by their encounters she should definitely play things to the hilt. Having her hiding behind the illusory wall and within reach of healing could be her best shot.
Once again, my players ruined any plans I may have had (they seem to do that often...hahahah):
Luck was with them against Sivit. I used her Darkness spell too late in the battle (it was a real killer against everyone except the party's half-orc - the only one with darkvision).
After rescuing Vencarlo, he guided them directly to Neolandus in room E21. The party took the bust-in-the-door approach and went toe-to-toe with Senshiir (Beatific One). My party is melee heavy (magic light) and Senshiir kicked some *ss! (Disarming, tripping and grappling really threw the party for a loop). After a whooping 26 rounds of battle, they finally defeated her - using almost every single resource and spell they had!
(P.S.: the group said this was the most exciting battle they have ever had with these characters!)
So, while I could have Vimanda waiting in ambush - and likely TPK the entire party - what fun is that? Even disguised, she might be able to convince them to attack Bahor, but that would most likely end up a TPK as well.
Is there any reason I should even bring Vimanda in at this point? They still have to battle the Enormous Reefclaw (D23) to escape.
Did the dagger from EoA come into play?
Did the dagger from EoA come into play?
Yes, and no.
The whole time, I've assumed that the dagger (Raktavarna) has been reporting to Vimanda.
If (big IF) I make an encounter with Vimanda, I'll have the dagger jump in (as described).
But the party is so depleted, AND they had such a fantastic battle with Senshiir, any further encounter with Vimanda seems to be pointless...
...so, I've decided that Senshiir IS Vimanda:
She used her disguse ability to look like a Beatific One!
- The battle was so kick-*ss that it was a fitting climax for her,
- She makes an appearance (they'll notice the beatific one revert back to rakshasha form after the final blow).
- this will get the players thinking that things are "wrong" in the Arkona household
- it makes sense that Vimanda might be torturing Neolandus for info behind her brother's back - only to be surprised by the PCs
The whole time, I've assumed that the dagger (Raktavarna) has been reporting to Vimanda.
But the party is so depleted, AND they had such a fantastic battle with Senshiir, any further encounter with Vimanda seems to be pointless...
...so, I've decided that Senshiir IS Vimanda:
She used her disguse ability to look like a Beatific One!
- The battle was so kick-*ss that it was a fitting climax for her,
- She makes an appearance (they'll notice the beatific one revert back to rakshasha form after the final blow).
- this will get the players thinking that things are "wrong" in the Arkona household
- it makes sense that Vimanda might be torturing Neolandus for info behind her brother's back - only to be surprised by the PCs
I ran this session last week (with Vimanda disguised as a Beatific one).
The players loved it!After they finally defeated that increadible encounter, I described the 3-headed Beatific One as slowly morphing shapes. First, the shape flashed into the beautiful Melyia Arkona. Then the form shimmered again into the fox-headed Vimanda before stopping.
This really freaked out the PCs. But what really blew them away was when the dagger (Raktavarna) wiggled out of its owner's belt and madly flopped, sizzled and died beside Vimanda! (I had scenes flash in its sizzling blood from all the events that it had spied on against the PCs).
When they realized they had been spied on for all this time - the player's faces went white and dropped - it was priceless.
We finished that EfOK some weeks ago, this is how it went: I made the changes, I mentioned above (Glorio said, his wife being "weird"; no rakshasa temple and motive in the labyrinth and so on). The PCs went down in the labyrinth, met Melyi in the disguise of Vencarlo. They did not totally trust her/him, but they were separated from the fake Orsini as Sivith pulled a trigger deeper in the labyrinth, trying to hunt the players down. after that the PCs unfortunately went straight ahead to Sivith's temple and encountered there the real Orsini and freed him. Then the met the darksphinx (or the darksphinx met the the group), killed her and stumpled upon Melyia in a new disguise: a young woman, an undercover agent of Cressida Croft who tried to infiltrate one of the drug trafficking gangs of the Arkona's but was unmasked not long thereafter. this time they trusted her a little bit more but they decided to stay down in the labyrinth to search for the seneschall and not to go up with the agent to kill Glorio. so meliya decided to finish them off - and was killed in pretty intense battle.
the surprise was total. :)
and as I expected, my group speculated about Glorio being a Rakshasa as well: One of the player's remembered that the Arkonas were somehow "changed" after they return from Vudra for the first time. But they never went really far with that as they concentrated on their main objective. and after they found Kalepopolis they decided against going up to Glorio (and doing whatever), as they wanted to secure the Seneschall's escape from the city. I don't know what they will do when they return after SOS, though.
After all, I reallys recommend to strike all the rakshasa hints in that adventure (big surprise, I know *g*). as it makes more sense that way - and if you want to play other adventures in korvosa (perhaps with the same players but with different characters) as I do you've got the chance to keep a wondeful secret.
second after all: I wanted to thank all you guys here: it was a pleasent discussion with a lot of good thoughts and recommendations!
Glad the suggestion worked out for you for the most part. My party still thinks Glorio is a good guy, but they haven't seen him since the end of EFOK. They just finished Ashes and are standing outside of Scarwall ready to begin the 5th book tonight.
For future reference for other GMs, this is what I've done with the whole Arkona Plot so far....
My group has a Paladin of Iomedae in it, and after fighting a group of Red Mantis in Vencarlo's home did not immediately deduce that he may have been captured by the Arkonas while looking for Neolandus. They instead did some scrying/locate object to find out where he was and determined he was in fact with the Arkonas. They then walked in the front door, asked for a meeting with Glorio, and straight up asked him for Vencarlo's release.
Glorio then used bluff to convey that he was being watched, likely by that one-eyed 'pirate' Carnochan, (check the secret message rules, you don't need sense motive to pick up on the message, you just need it if the message isn't aimed at you). They then had a lengthy conversation about the state of Old Korvosa while really talking about how yes Vencarlo could be here but my 'cousin' Melyia is trying to wrest control of the family from me and I don't know who to trust please go into the Vivified Labyrinth and find your friend(s). Oh and watch out for Melyia she's evil and a whore.
I have the Paladin so convinced of Glorio's innocence that he actually offered to help escort Glorio off the premises if he thought his life was in danger. Glorio thought that would alert Melyia's conspirators and make things harder. He did however give them the secret to the elephant as well as told them of a secret smugglers entrance by the water (being the more logical choice so they didn't have to storm the house and reveal all the rakshasa guards). They went down and immediately walked into the Temple and a fight with the cobras.
The gist is this: Bahor (as Glorio) pretends his cousin has changed and is trying to eliminate him as head of the household. He makes it sound like he doesn't use the basement suites, but his cousin Melyia seems to. When they go down there and find Rakshasas, as well as Melyia, hopefully they will assume it is all on her side. However, when they encounter Melyia, she will (as her lovely female human self) try to convince the group that she was put down here by Glorio and that evil man is trying to kill them all! "He sent you down here to die, you fools! Please help me!" (I have several ladies' men in the group it could work....)
Since the group has both the 'ring of evasion' and the 'silver dagger' likely both sides will know what the other is up to, and the reactions of the PCs will determine how each rakshasa tries to play it out. I am holding only a small glimmer of hope that I will actually have one of the two survive.
hmmm...I need to have Melyia invest in a ring of undetectable alignment, so she doesn't ping evil right away....darn paladins.
So my group bought Glorio's innocence, and took the secret smuggler's entrance in. They hit up the temple, killed the king cobras and Avidexu, and said "Oh Crap, Rakshasa!". They then quickly found the hidden walls and beelined straight for Neolandus.
Heading into the dungeon, they turned once, explored as much as possible, then turned again in wheel 1 (ending up straight for Sivit). They then had both guys they came in for, and decided rakshasa or no they should GTFO. I had Vimanda use the teleport room to head for the entrance to the labyrinth so when they finished rotating back to the entrance she was there in human form crying and untrustworthy of them because that Glorio is a vile creature!
They didn't buy it as players, but couldn't prove it as characters, so they didn't attack (lots of discussion regarding this). I had the reefclaw attack soon after, and Melyia left of her own accord separate from the group, as she still didn't 'trust them'.
So end of Chapter 3, both Arkona siblings and 4 house guards are still alive. They didn't explore the palace, or half the dungeon. I will have to think further on how this will affect the future of Korvosa! ;-)