I will say, the art of trap making and placement has rather declined over the years.
I agree. Traps are not a big enough threat to make someone want to have disable device as a "must have."
I am not saying all traps should be death threats, but a trap 3 above the party's APL should be able to cause a lot of problems. For the most part they are a minor inconvenience.
The first thing I notice is people feal you only need a rogue for traps, locked door, and such. This hase more to do with bad character making then bad class. So meny people get sucked in to thinking that a rogue must be this way. Take a deap breath and get rid of the old stuff you know about a rogue.
The 4 most common mastakes made when building a rogue.
1. They are 1D8HD it is only 1 point per level lower then 1D10HD. Alot of people that build rogues dump con for some reason. If they invest and get a 14 con they can get close to fighter HP.
2. You have 8 skill points per level base. Int is not a dump stat but it is not a primary stat. You don't need to put build points in, or if your rolling one of your highest rolls in average is good enough.
3. Traps are not somthing you should focus on when building a rogue. Do you want trapfinding? Yes. Do you need to focus on traps alone? No. Thats one of the bigest problems when people make a rogue. They feal they need to be the best trap experts. You are and don't need to focus on traps to do it. You should plan how to do two other things then traps. A:Combat B:Social Interactions. Your base stat hase so little to do with total skill after level 6. You base stat will effect your total but still be higher then a untrained skill for any one with a high ability score.
4. Combat focus rogue will bring more to the table then traps. And every one at the table will be very happy. They are more effective over all. With there ability to cover multiple roles in a party. There lower BAB dose mean the standard power attack two handed weapon is not the best way to go. It dose not mean they can't do alot of damage. Sneak attack damage is not hard to do. It dose require more awareness of whats going on. For most fights I can say it's the full bab classes that move so it's harder to flank. You just need to get them working with you on geting them in to flanking.
+1. Traps are pretty much going to be found and bypass even with minimal effort by a rogue. That 1/2 class bonus is big.
The chest also doesn't fully open immediately upon unlocking unless the lid has some spring attached to it.actually it does.
Knock opens stuck, barred, or locked doors, as well as those subject to hold portal or arcane lock. When you complete the casting of this spell, make a caster level check against the DC of the lock with a +10 bonus. If successful, knock opens up to two means of closure. This spell opens secret doors, as well as locked or trick-opening boxes or chests. It also loosens welds, shackles, or chains (provided they serve to hold something shut).
So yeah. I think we've successfully beaten you guys' silly challenge.
Knock>Rogue
Any such chest that is magically trapped, in a way that a rogue can detect and disable said trap i.e. trap is on the outside of the chest, can be gotten rid of with a dispel magic.
Also the search DC would have to be insanely high, since you can take 20 on perception to search, and a level 10 [insert class here] can/will (for the sake of argument) have Eyes of the Eagle and possibly a good wis or even perception as a class skill. Looking at between DC 35 (minimum) to DC 46 (max) that a NON rogue wold be able to detect. A cleric who bought the bullet and sunk a skill selection (10 ranks) into perception can take 20 for easily better than the rogue, even WITH "trapfinding".
No you haven't. Knock is not auto-open. Read the spell again instead of posting certain parts, and that chest is still closed.
PS:You or someone else tried the knock thing already, and I shot it down. Your party is probably about to die. I will bring the entire party back to life so you can try again.This time I won't respond until you make an actual attempt instead of trying to belittle the issue. The chest is a real issue from a real game so instead of assuming you auto-pass tell me what the first action is and who is taking that action. Then I will give you the results of that action.
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Mindless undead do forget everything when they are created. They have no INT score. They have no skills. They are "mindless".
Speak with dead and then animate dead is a better option for the scenario you propose. But it has limitations in terms of answers, number of questions and material components.
The rogue's methods will take time but they cost only that. No 25 gp per hd to animate no spending two spells.
Now the treasure map spell in the APG, while costing money, does let you know where all valuables known to the dead creature are located. This is really useful if you kill a creature away from it's lair.
You apply your character's Intelligence modifier to:
The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game. These are in addition to any starting racial languages and Common. If you have a penalty, you can still read and speak your racial languages unless your Intelligence is lower than 3.
The number of skill points gained each level, though your character always gets at least 1 skill point per level.
Appraise, Craft, Knowledge, Linguistics, and Spellcraft checks.
Mindless means no Int score and immunity to mind affecting effects. Intelligence determines Learning and Reason and has nothing to do with memory or recall.
You're making assumptions here that are not spelled out via the rules and history of the game.
The history of the game going all the way back to the 2nd edition necromancer's handbook are full of examples of zombies being called on to remember pieces of their former lives or continuing with their desires after becoming uncontrolled undead.
But as I said it really doesn't matter, either it can be ordered to use it's memory and open the chest or you use it as a beatstick to force the chest open and let it suck up the trap on it. Either way easier and less dangerous then having a PC do it.
The treasure map spell is a horrible option since it only finds a SINGLE item that the donor considers most valuable to it. Like it's daughter/spouse or it's first wand or junk like that.
As for resources spent the adventure is over, the big bad is dead and the spell slots would go to waste. Burn em and then teleport home.
Plus Animate Dead (Lesser) doesn't have a material component so no 25gp gem requirement. Also once I make that zombie I can use it over and over again to open doors, set off traps, carry loot, etc. until it falls apart then I just make another one. Efficiency, the other reason to play a caster.
It seems to me the general belief of those who suggest the Rogue is "Obsolete" is "If it's not a full-caster, it's useless."Actually they seem to be saying if someone can do your job then you are useless, and they believe anyone can do a rogue's job, but the thing is they keep having to insert different classes.
Using that type of thinking any class can be removed. A sorcerer is close enough to a wizard to do his job, and if you let a cleric's spells count then that makes it even better for a wizard not being useful. A melee focused druid with a powerful animal companion can out DPR a fighter. The same goes for other classes.
The rogue is not needed in a typical 4 man party and is probably the most replaceable, but that does not mean it can't add something to the party without a player needed a high level of expertise. Now if the rogue required a high level of skill in order to be useful, like another 3/4 BAB class I won't name then I would understand.Nice straw man, but no one has said that.
What we're saying is that a rogue is obsolete if another class can do his job AND DO THEIR JOB A THE SAME TIME.
That is only the case in certain games though. It is not true across the board. A paladin can fight and heal so by that logic the fighter can cleric might be obsolete. If you can't do the job full time on your own then you are not doing that person's job. You are only doing part of that person's job. You might be able to split the rogue's job up among the entire party, but the same could be said for any class.
Finding the trap is done by anyone with a high perception.Disarming it might be doable with a summon monster 1 wand depending on the trap, and/or dispel magic, but you would have to make sure to have enough ready.
The party as a whole can combine efforts to make up for the knowledge skills rogue would have chosen. I think clerics have diplomacy as a class skill. The fighter can beat a chest open if nobody can unlock it.
So as a whole the party can do a rogue's job. I have yet to see one class that can be built to do so and succeed if plugged into any game.
Magic only comes in two varieties for PC's, spells and Items and I addressed both options in my posts. Pretty sure any I wasn't being obtuse anywhere in there.
You actually insulted me for not knowing you meant spells. You actually called the spells out, but the other post mentioned magic items also. I was saying that you will not always have access to any magic you want in every campaign when you want it. The town you are in might not have scroll X(insert other spell duplicating item), and you may not have learned that spell
I understand no arbitrary time table was suggested, but my point is that not all games run the same so you can't assume that jut because you have access to X in one game that it works that way in all games. The best you can say is that you might have access to X.
Sure it does, either the boss will have a key on it's person or know where it is and will go get it to open the chest. Mindless undead don't forget everything they knew when they get animated, they just get slow, and even if they did forget you just give it a rock and it takes 20 beating the lock open and sucking up whatever negative effect is on the chest. Cheaper and safer then having the rogue or fighter doing it.
As for speak with dead, I'd rather spend 15 minutes finding out where [b]ALL[\b] the treasure in this lair is then 2+ hours while the rogue takes 20 to search every 10'x10' area in the lair looking for where the BBEG hid the good loot including whatever is in the chest.
If the boss had the key on him I would not have brought the scenario up. Mindless undead don't keep skills they had when they were alive. That is D&D/PF 101. You are assuming the mindless undead are safe from the bad affect of what is on the chest.
The thing to check is the chest. That is not a 20 minute search.
The chest also doesn't fully open immediately upon unlocking unless the lid has some spring attached to it.actually it does.
Knock opens stuck, barred, or locked doors, as well as those subject to hold portal or arcane lock. When you complete the casting of this spell, make a caster level check against the DC of the lock with a +10 bonus. If successful, knock opens up to two means of closure. This spell opens secret doors, as well as locked or trick-opening boxes or chests. It also loosens welds, shackles, or chains (provided they serve to hold something shut).
So yeah. I think we've successfully beaten you guys' silly challenge.
Knock>Rogue
Any such chest that is magically trapped, in a way that a rogue can detect and disable said trap i.e. trap is on the outside of the chest, can be gotten rid of with a dispel magic.
Also the search DC would have to be insanely high, since you can take 20 on perception to search, and a level 10 [insert class here] can/will (for the sake of argument) have Eyes of the Eagle and possibly a good wis or even perception as a class skill. Looking at between DC 35 (minimum) to DC 46 (max) that a NON rogue wold be able to detect. A cleric who bought the bullet and sunk a skill selection (10 ranks) into perception can take 20 for easily better than the rogue, even WITH "trapfinding".
No you haven't. Knock is not auto-open. Read the spell again instead of posting certain parts, and that chest is still closed.
PS:You or someone else tried the knock thing already, and I shot it down. Your party is probably about to die. I will bring the entire party back to life so you can try again.
This time I won't respond until you make an actual attempt instead of trying to belittle the issue. The chest is a real issue from a real game so instead of assuming you auto-pass tell me what the first action is and who is taking that action. Then I will give you the results of that...
Needless to say autoopen wouldn't be always advisable. Summon/call monster upon opening, explosives, poisonous gas... you name it. Anything could be released and the regular user could protect himself just by pressing a hidden button or something like that. I'm not saying that the wizard can't do Rogue's job, but for how long? Once? Twice a day? Sure there are items, but they are not for free. The rogue can UMD wizard's utility job as well and it's just like that - costly.
Just to change the discussion a bit, what one thing could we adjust on the rogue to make them less "obsolete"?
I think full BAB would certainly put the rogue on par with the ranger.
I'm currently houseruling full BAB to Rogue in my campaign. Works for our group at least.
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Magic only comes in two varieties for PC's, spells and Items and I addressed both options in my posts. Pretty sure any I wasn't being obtuse anywhere in there.
You actually insulted me for not knowing you meant spells. You actually called the spells out, but the other post mentioned magic items also. I was saying that you will not always have access to any magic you want in every campaign when you want it. The town you are in might not have scroll X(insert other spell duplicating item), and you may not have learned that spell
I understand no arbitrary time table was suggested, but my point is that not all games run the same so you can't assume that jut because you have access to X in one game that it works that way in all games. The best you can say is that you might have access to X.
Sure it does, either the boss will have a key on it's person or know where it is and will go get it to open the chest. Mindless undead don't forget everything they knew when they get animated, they just get slow, and even if they did forget you just give it a rock and it takes 20 beating the lock open and sucking up whatever negative effect is on the chest. Cheaper and safer then having the rogue or fighter doing it.
As for speak with dead, I'd rather spend 15 minutes finding out where ALL the treasure in this lair is then 2+ hours while the rogue takes 20 to search every 10'x10' area in the lair looking for where the BBEG hid the good loot including whatever is in the chest.
If the boss had the key on him I would not have brought the scenario up. Mindless undead don't keep skills they had when they were alive. That is D&D/PF 101. You are assuming the mindless undead are safe from the bad affect of what is on the chest.
The thing to check is the chest. That is not a 20 minute search.
If I come across as insulting it is never my intent and if it is taken that way I apologize for it.
Now my point is that any caster who decided that they wanted to fulfill the role a rogue usually does they will automatically be able to accomplish that in any campaign.This is done by the acquisition of a small group of spells (Knock, Invisibility, Alter Self, Charm Person, Animate Dead and Fly) that they can take for free because of their 2 free spells per level class ability.
Follow that with the them using a feat to get craft Wand or Scroll to have these spells on call whenever they choose (All are 3rd level or less so can be scribed or crafted in less than a day WHILE ADVENTURING) for about the cost of a good longsword.
All of this lets them fulfill all the abilities a rogue brings to the party while still providing all the abilities a caster brings as well.
this leaves the rogue with only their damage dealing abilities left so that should be competitive with other damage dealing classes, but it's not.
Yes a rogue can do a lot of damage with sneak attack but without a flank buddy or an opponent who is denied his dex bonus EVERY ROUND then rogues do the lowest damage of all the classes in the game.
So with skills/abilities that can be replaced for the cost of a longsword and damage that is the lowest possible unless the target is already in trouble or the big fighter comes and helps the rogue what good are they?
I'd rather have any other melee class since they just do the job, and don't need specific gimmicks to not suck.
As for the chest if the zombie had the key on him it doesn't matter. If it knows where the key was it solves the chest problem, if it's trapped the zombie takes the full brunt of the trap and is either destroyed or ignores the effect (poison, con save spell, etc). The trap is now useless and the chest is open, problem still solved.
I take it you play APs and the players customize / optimize their characters with that in mind?
Your assumptions are as incorrect as they are unfounded.
If not, it would be interesting to know how they picked just the right spells / skills / feats ahead of time for what you think is a rare mission.
Because you pick the skills/feats/equipment AND CLASS that let your character do what you want them to do. If you want to play a sneak then you pick the kills/feats/equipment AND CLASS that let you be a sneak. Its really not that hard or complicated.
The Rogue selects for what he does. He's not a caster, or a combat type. Stealth is, for the most part, his bit.
This is the stereotype that i'm railing against. This is the bit he can do, but in pathfinder it is not his bit exclusively . Other classes can do it and many times can do it better.
My players exist in a sand box campaign for years playing the same characters across dozens of adventures of all types. My players don't choose spells, skills or feats because of one adventure.
Either do mine. Start looking at the evidence of what we're saying rather than launching baseless accusations instead of making a point.
You talk about "opportunity costs", what are the opportunity costs for the caster who has decided to "stealth" his character and spend his limited skill points / feats / spell selections on the off chance that it will be useful over time?
The opportunity cost is that you're not Treantmonks godwizard. This is still a smaller loss FOR THE PLAYER than being a rogue.
Most of my players over the years (35 now to be exact) who have played casters did so to use magic, not to immitate a Rogue. If they want to do stealth they choose a Rogue, Ranger or the like. It's a different playing style.
Because that's how you had to do it in the past. That they're continuing to do so now that the rogue is obsolete is a measure of their and yours not recognizing the far reaching repercussions of a small change in the gaming system (how skill ranks work). With skills being condensed and open to everyone it has become possible for other classes with slightly fewer skill points to take over most if not all of the functions of the rogue.
Anybody can do a point buy build for a specific mission that will put the caster ahead of the game for that mission / adventure. They do the character they want to play, no matter the adventure. More, or less useful, depending on what they've gotten themselves into.
Since skills and powers at least i've been using these sorts of characters for campaigns. they work.
My point being why waste the slots doing something a skill can do.
Because after you're done "Wasting" the slots as a wizard what you have left over is far more useful than the rogue.
Hopefully, but then you spent the resources to create it (or bought it, or if you were lucky, found it). How many wands / staves / devices are you going to tote along?
With a handy haversack? Roughly a metric ton of the things as needed.
A lot of adventures require stealth at certain points, some center on it. That depends on the campaign. As for functioning, mine have. Are they dragging the whole party behind them? Sometimes yes, othertimes, no. Different players / classes take the lead depending on what's happening.
Its easier for casters to share their abilities. Rogues cant.
A reasonable facsimile... at the cost of tremendous resource expenditure. Are spells more powerful than skills? Yes. Does a caster get fewere skills and feats thatn a Rogue? Yes. And you're blowing them to do what a Rogue can do with just skills?
Yes. A Wizard gets spells, feats, and skills. A rogue gets some more feats and some more skills. It is my contention that the spells are so useful that even after the wizard has exhausted his feats and skills what he has left is still more than the rogue.
Again a different style of play. And no, the caster to Rogue comparison is not all that matters. It's "is my character what I wanted him to be". That matters.
Its. The same. Comparison.
Our playstyles aren't that different. You need to stop harping on that as an excuse. As long as you don't include the class rogue along with what you want your character to be able to do, another class will be able to functionally do the concept better. Whether its a sneak, a master manipulator, a disguise expert, or a cat burglar its been fairly easy since 3.0 for another class to do it better with a level or two of rogue.
You're kidding, right? One quicky then. How long does a Disguise last and how long does an Alter Self spell last?
-If you need to change outside of your race/gender you're pretty much out of luck with a mundane disguise. If you need to change into something shorter or taller you're out of luck. If you just need to be someone different in a market and not draw suspicion for a few hours an untrained check will probably do what's needed.
And again, you're stuck in the 2e rut of "only rogues can use mundane disguises" Look at the new possibilities. Break free, and soar.
True, there are limits to everything. And yes, a high level caster makes a better faux Rogue. If he's made the "right" choices to immitate the Rogue and prepped his whole life for the role. It is easier to take / use cross class skills in PF. The question should be why you would want to.
Because it makes your concept WORK better.
In a game where the player is filling a "role" in the party it makes sense. In a game where the player is living a life it probably doesn't.
Role and roll playing are not irreconcilable opposites. A good role player can come up with a rational and compelling background for pun pun if they are so inclined.
Make me a caster that can do "everything" a Rogue can do, in a sandbox environment and still match up to other casters who have focused on "magic" and be useful in other types of adventures.
That's an unfair request. Why should the faux rogue have to do all the rest (they can) and still match up with the casters when the REAL rogue cannot? You are again using the wrong comparison. Its not a matter of playstyle, your are objectively looking at the wrong thing.
If I come across as insulting it is never my intent and if it is taken that way I apologize for it.
Now my point is that any caster who decided that they wanted to fulfill the role a rogue usually does they will automatically be able to accomplish that in any campaign.
This is done by the acquisition of a small group of spells (Knock, Invisibility, Alter Self, Charm Person, Animate Dead and Fly) that they can take for free because of their 2 free spells per level class ability.
Those spells also have to be prepped the correct number of times per day, and IIRC they are pretty much in the 1dt to 3rd level range, which means other spells such as haste and fog cloud are not getting used. At that point the wizard is impeding the party's progress by trying to be a rogue and a wizard. So not only do you lose out on other common spells, but any spell not prepped the right number of times is can cause issues. Of course you can leave spell slot open, but that 15 minutes is not always available.
Follow that with the them using a feat to get craft Wand or Scroll to have these spells on call whenever they choose (All are 3rd level or less so can be scribed or crafted in less than a day WHILE ADVENTURING) for about the cost of a good longsword.
Animate dead cost money in the form of Onyx(?). It is pretty trivial at higher levels, but those 25 gp add up when they get multiplied. That was something I did not realize before I made a dread necromancer(3.5 class).
Yes a rogue can do a lot of damage with sneak attack but without a flank buddy or an opponent who is denied his dex bonus EVERY ROUND then rogues do the lowest damage of all the classes in the game. ....I'd rather have any other melee class since they just do the job, and don't need specific gimmicks to not suck.
Rogues may or may not do the least amount of damage, but they still do enough damage to matter. If we both need 20 dollars for a cover charge to get into a club, and you bring 1000, while I only bring 75 I have still met the standard. IIRC a typical rogue is doing more damage than many classes before limited abilities such as smite come into play. That means most of the time the rogue is competitive. If the paladin has 2 or 3 enemies a day that he decides to one round that does not invalidate the rogue.
As for the chest if the zombie had the key on him it doesn't matter. If it knows where the key was it solves the chest problem, if it's trapped the zombie takes the full brunt of the trap and is either destroyed or ignores the effect (poison, con save spell, etc). The trap is now useless and the chest is open, problem still solved.
The in my example does not have a key, even though most chest do. I don't know if I mentioned this earlier, but this is not a chest I made up. I am just using it since I was asked to name one scenario earlier meattrace is not taking it seriously and keeps trying to skirt around the issue with very simple answers that are autofailing.
You are also assuming the chest is not using an AoE based trap, or any other number of bad things that go beyond the disabler(in this case a skeleton). Many home GM's and Paizo writers are very creative so I would not just assume throwing a summon or undead at it will always solve the issue.
Your ideas would work for many of the traps in my home games, but not for every trap. I don't require a rogue, but if you don't have one be prepared to improvise because the game just got a harder in some areas. The same thought process goes for not having a class that can remove status affects.
In short I don't think you can fill the role of two classes without diminishing your ability to do your own job, and do the job as well as the original class. It might work for a particular campaign or GM, but I would not say it is always going to be true.
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If I come across as insulting it is never my intent and if it is taken that way I apologize for it.
Now my point is that any caster who decided that they wanted to fulfill the role a rogue usually does they will automatically be able to accomplish that in any campaign.
This is done by the acquisition of a small group of spells (Knock, Invisibility, Alter Self, Charm Person, Animate Dead and Fly) that they can take for free because of their 2 free spells per level class ability.Those spells also have to be prepped the correct number of times per day, and IIRC they are pretty much in the 1dt to 3rd level range, which means other spells such as haste and fog cloud are not getting used. At that point the wizard is impeding the party's progress by trying to be a rogue and a wizard. So not only do you lose out on other common spells, but any spell not prepped the right number of times is can cause issues. Of course you can leave spell slot open, but that 15 minutes is not always available.
Well first it's 1 minute to prep any spell slot now that we have arcane discoveries but truthfully that's what Arcane Bond, scrolls and Wands are for. This gives a caster 5 ways to get that challenge solved in 1 minute or less while still leaving the bulk of their spellcasting available for whatever else they want to do.
Follow that with the them using a feat to get craft Wand or Scroll to have these spells on call whenever they choose (All are 3rd level or less so can be scribed or crafted in less than a day WHILE ADVENTURING) for about the cost of a good longsword.Animate dead cost money in the form of Onyx(?). It is pretty trivial at higher levels, but those 25 gp add up when they get multiplied. That was something I did not realize before I made a dread necromancer(3.5 class).
The 3rd level version of animate dead doesn't cost anything. No material cost on that spell.
Yes a rogue can do a lot of damage with sneak attack but without a flank buddy or an opponent who is denied his dex bonus EVERY ROUND then rogues do the lowest damage of all the classes in the game. ....I'd rather have any other melee class since they just do the job, and don't need specific gimmicks to not suck.Rogues may or may not do the least amount of damage, but they still do enough damage to matter. If we both need 20 dollars for a cover charge to get into a club, and you...
And that's the point we've all been trying to make to you, just because a pure rogue can have a higher score in a skill than almost anyone else once you get past the difficulty of the check it doesn't matter.
For damage however it's different, for every round the Big, Bad is up is a chance for a PC to die and a round of resources needs to be spent (Spells, Health, Consumables, etc) so the goal is to end that fight ASAP. In that situation do you take the rogue who can kill it in 10 rounds or the Fighter who can do it in 3 and let the wizard/bard/cleric/etc deal with the other stuff a rogue would have done?
End of the day the rogue slows down the party completing the challenge since he makes fights take longer and actually has a bigger chance to fail at using his class skills.
Edit: Oh and the chest is a non-issue if we're using a zombie to open a chest we're outside of the room (like most good bomb disposal technicians who use robots do) and just because YOU didn't find the key to the chest doesn't mean there isn't one. The zombie would know where it is and go get it.
Well first it's 1 minute to prep any spell slot now that we have arcane discoveries but truthfully that's what Arcane Bond, scrolls and Wands are for. This gives a caster 5 ways to get that challenge solved in 1 minute or less while still leaving the bulk of their spellcasting available for whatever else they want to do.
So you are not taking sacrificing spells to be a rogue you are sacrificing feats(for the arcane discovery) also. I don't see that as a positive comment. Arcane Bond could be the familiar, and it is only 1 more spell. Scrolls and wands cost time and money you could be using for other things. All I see are more inhibitors to you doing wizard things, which means the wizard side is suffering.
The 3rd level version of animate dead doesn't cost anything. No material cost on that spell.
That is not true.
School necromancy [evil]; Level cleric 3, sorcerer/wizard 4Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (an onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead)
And that's the point we've all been trying to make to you, just because a pure rogue can have a higher score in a skill than almost anyone else once you get past the difficulty of the check it doesn't matter.
My point with skills is that they have access to more skills, not that they are guaranteed to have a higher score.
For damage however it's different, for every round the Big, Bad is up is a chance for a PC to die and a round of resources needs to be spent (Spells, Health, Consumables, etc) so the goal is to end that fight ASAP. In that situation do you take the rogue who can kill it in 10 rounds or the Fighter who can do it in 3 and let the wizard/bard/cleric/etc deal with the other stuff a rogue would have done?
I think a wizard who is being a wizard and that can bring more buffs and debuffs is the key here. You spend your spells on rogue things, and now you can't help the party as much. You can save your arcane bond for haste, but other low level spells are not availible if you decided to take the rogue's spot.
End of the day the rogue slows down the party completing the challenge since he makes fights take longer and actually has a bigger chance to fail at using his class skills.
How does he have a bigger chance to fail.
Some challenges are accomplished by more than swords. You need to get into a room without making a lot of noise, and with a short amount of time. You can try the knock spell, but the rogue still has a better chance to get in. You might have a wand of knock, but that is 750 gp that could have went elsewhere.Edit: Oh and the chest is a non-issue if we're using a zombie to open a chest we're outside of the room (like most good bomb disposal technicians who use robots do) and just because YOU didn't find the key to the chest doesn't mean there isn't one. The zombie would know where it is and go get it.
Since when do unintelligent undead remember life events? Once you are zombified you are zombified. It takes int to remember, and zombies don't have int. If you stand outside the room you may not get to witness the affect. If you open the door you may be subject to it. There are enough variables for the zombie ideal to fail. When the zombie is unharmed do you assume nothing happened or he just was unaffected by it? Maybe he made his save. Maybe he was immune to it. How long do you wait to go into the room?
I will say, the art of trap making and placement has rather declined over the years.
I agree. Traps are not a big enough threat to make someone want to have disable device as a "must have."
I am not saying all traps should be death threats, but a trap 3 above the party's APL should be able to cause a lot of problems. For the most part they are a minor inconvenience.People put traps in places and have them act like wandering monsters.
Whether this is the nature of the EL system or whatever, I'm not sure.
But traps are not wandering monsters.
If you have an encounter that revolves around a trap or properly includes one then it can be a challenge.
-James
I am saying that if you go by the book the traps affects are not always that dangerous, or the save is to low or the perception, and disable DC's are too low. This is not always the case, but it seems to be the majority of the time.
Felix Leafturner Level 1
CN Medium humanoid
Init +3 Senses; Low light vision, Perception +4
Defense
AC 13, touch 13, flat-footed 10
(+3 dex)
hp 6 (1d6)
Fort +0, Ref +3, Will +2
Defensive Abilities
Offense
Spd 30 ft.
Melee -1 Quarterstaff (1d8-1)
Special Attacks
Spells Known (CL 1st):
1st (3/day)— 1st: Vanish, Grease, Summon monster I, mage armor, identify, Enlarge person, expeditious retreat.
0 (3/day)—the normal ones.
Spells Memorized
1st Enlarge person (dc14), Vanish, Color spray (DC14)
Statistics
Str 8, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +0; Cmb -1
Feats Point blank shot
Skills Appraise +8 (1 rank +4 int +3 trained), Linguistics +8 (1 rank +4 int +3 trained),Disable Device +4 (1 rank +3dex ),Spellcraft +8 (1 rank +4 int +3 trained), Know: Arcana +8 (1 rank +4 int +3 trained),Acrobatics +4 (1 rank +3 dex ),Stealth (1 rank +3 dex +3 cat familiar),Perception +4 (o ranks +2 elf +2 familiar's alertness)
Languages Common, Elf, Draconic, Celestial, Sylvan, Gnome (for speaking to fences), Gnoll
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About rogues and damage. Out of a 7 player party. Bard, Witch, Warlord(ToS), Rogue, Cleric/Monk, Fighter, And Ranger. So very combat heavy group. The Rogue did more damage on a avarge attack then any of the other characters in the party. The hardest part of geting the damage out of a rogue is geting every one else to work with the rogue to do it. Bard songs and the warlords comanding presence working to gether make the lower bab moot point. It then becomes about damage and flanking. With two weapon fighting, bard songs, Warlord comanding presence, the rogue was doing 3 attacks with +17/+17/+12 damage 1D4/18+X2 +13 (Sneak Attack +4D6,Powerfull Sneak). Character was built off 15 point buy.
If it takes a Fighter 3 rounds to drop a BBEG. It will only take the Fighter and Rogue 1 round to drop the BBEG.
Me and the other DMs are not kind to casters and let them rest all the time. So changing out your spells very often. Is not realy somthing we will let have enough of a rest brake for. But thats up to your DM.
o changing out your spells very often. Is not realy somthing we will let have enough of a rest brake for. But thats up to your DM.
You realize that that trick only works on arcane casters right? You have to keep divine casters attacked on an hourly basis for it to work.
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Well first it's 1 minute to prep any spell slot now that we have arcane discoveries but truthfully that's what Arcane Bond, scrolls and Wands are for. This gives a caster 5 ways to get that challenge solved in 1 minute or less while still leaving the bulk of their spellcasting available for whatever else they want to do.
So you are not taking sacrificing spells to be a rogue you are sacrificing feats(for the arcane discovery) also. I don't see that as a positive comment. Arcane Bond could be the familiar, and it is only 1 more spell. Scrolls and wands cost time and money you could be using for other things. All I see are more inhibitors to you doing wizard things, which means the wizard side is suffering.
It's not a sacrifice. It's a pure power up, 1 minute to cast any spell I know at full strength without burning my arcane bond? That's just buckets of Win there
The 3rd level version of animate dead doesn't cost anything. No material cost on that spell.That is not true.
School necromancy [evil]; Level cleric 3, sorcerer/wizard 4Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (an onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead)
Yes it is.
ANIMATE DEAD, LESSER
School necromancy [evil]; Level cleric 2, sorcerer/wizard 3
Target one corpse
Duration instantaneous
This spell functions as animate dead, except you can only create
a single Small or Medium skeleton or zombie. You cannot
create variant skeletons or zombies with this spell.
No material component for this version so no cost save a 3rd level spell slot so you can even put this one in a wand. :)
And that's the point we've all been trying to make to you, just because a pure rogue can have a higher score in a skill than almost anyone else once you get past the difficulty of the check it doesn't matter.
My point with skills is that they have access to more skills, not that they are guaranteed to have a higher score.
For damage however it's different, for every round the Big, Bad is up is a chance for a PC to die and a round of resources needs to be spent (Spells, Health, Consumables, etc) so the goal is to end that fight ASAP. In that situation do you take the rogue who can kill it in 10 rounds or the Fighter who can do it in 3 and let the wizard/bard/cleric/etc deal with the other stuff a rogue would have done?
I think a wizard who is being a wizard and that can bring more buffs and debuffs is the key here. You spend your spells on rogue things, and now you can't...
Really, so if I where to choose a Bard who has access to as many skills and an equal number of skill points as well as the spells I'm talking about you'd concede this point?
I think a wizard who is being a wizard and that can bring more buffs and debuffs is the key here. You spend your spells on rogue things, and now you can't help the party as much. You can save your arcane bond for haste, but other low level spells are not availible if you decided to take the rogue's spot.
False argument here, just because the wizard decided to take the spells that allow him to mimic being a rogue does NOT prevent him from doing everything you said.
A decent wizard will have a spell slot free, an extra scroll or a wand prepped to use whatever spell he feels will best solve the challenge in front of him. Whether it's throw a Knock spell in there or an additional Haste/Blink/Invisiblility/etc. It's whatever he decides to add based on how he CHOOSES to handle the challenge.How does he have a bigger chance to fail.
Some challenges are accomplished by more than swords. You need to get into a room without making a lot of noise, and with a short amount of time. You can try the knock spell, but the rogue still has a better chance to get in. You might have a wand of knock, but that is 750 gp that could have went elsewhere.
(337.5 gold actually but not that important)
Using this example and your 10th level character:The rogue will take 10 to open the door (10 + 10ranks + 3 class bonus +6 Dex ) = 29
The wizard casts Knock with the same take 10 = (10 +10 spell bonus +10 for the caster level check)= 30
The rogue has to burn a feat or cash for masterwork tools to pass the wizard on his own class skill.
Same goes for stealth, but the rogue is required to burn even more resources and can't keep up with the wizard.
The rogue will take 10 on stealth check (10 + 10ranks + 3 class bonus +6 Dex ) = 29
The wizard casts invisibility with the same take 10 = (10 +20 spell bonus +up to 10 ranks in the skill)= 31-40
Edit: Oh and the chest is a non-issue if we're using a zombie to open a chest we're outside of the room (like most good bomb disposal technicians who use robots do) and just because YOU didn't find the key to the chest doesn't mean there isn't one. The zombie would know where it is and go get it.
Since when do unintelligent undead remember life events? Once you are zombified you are zombified. It takes int to remember, and zombies don't have int. If you stand outside the room you may not get to witness the affect. If you open the door you may be subject to it. There are enough variables for the zombie ideal to fail. When the zombie is unharmed do you assume nothing happened or he just was unaffected by it? Maybe he made his save. Maybe he was immune to it. How long do you wait to go into the room?
As I stated in my last posting with the info pulled straight from the Bestiary and Core Book, nothing about the intelligence score or mindless trait say anything about losing their memory. They lose the ability to think not remember.
Anyway, the point of a mindless minion is it opens the chest takes whatever effect goes off and then brings what's in it to you while you set safely 100 ft away. If it can reach you from there it's a DM fiat and they want to get you and nothing you can do will stop it.
Disguise- polymorph, alter self=+10 to disquise skill.
Try a +20.
Diplomacy- charm person, dominate person, glibness=saving throws and time limits
As opposed to diplomacy's inherent functional limits.
The duration on dominate person is one DAY per level. What on earth are you doing that takes longer than that.
Bluff- suggestion="do this"=/=lying
I have no idea what you're trying to say here.
Craft- fabricate=Skill check again.
Take 10. Add your int modifier. Oh right, you're a wizard, thats a 15. That makes most stuff.
Disable device- knock=open chest with a skill check at +10.
Reread the spell again. its +10 PLUS YOUR CASTER LEVEL.
Escape artist- dimension door=Can't move through a dimension door while tied up and casting while grappled is kind of tough.
-Reread the spell and not the name. there is no actual door. You do not have to step through. Getting off a spell in a grapple isn't that hard.
Heal- heal spell=Got me there. Unless Rogue has a staff of curing. Also, wizards don't have heal.
Summon an archon to do it for you.
Intimidate- meteor swarm=Funny, and pretty true. At 17th level.
Linguistics: tongues=True enough. Hope you have it memorizes a few times.
-scrolls.
perception- scry, detect magic, the ring of eyeball things=None of these things actually is a perception check. Also, DC 15 perception check to notice someone is scrying on you as opposed to an opposed skill check against the rogue's stealth makes scrying obsolete.
stealth- invisibility=Don't do anything at all and it is correct. Do anything, rogue still does it better.
-Not really. See the thread about stealing farmer browns chickens for the myriad of things that can go wrong trying to stealth. It gets worse in a dungeon.
use magic device- I don't need to cheat thanks=Oh, so using skills is cheating now? It's only been an ability they've had since FIRST EDITION.
What i mean is that the use magic device skill is largely built in to already being a wizard.
You were mostly right about the stealth....except,. of course, for the part where you were rolling. A caster optimized for stealth having to pick a specific race
-he only needs to pick a specific race for the people that are touting that the rogue does so at full speed. If someone wants to move twice as fast into the darkness as the party meat shield i fully recommend covering them in BBQ sauce for whatever lurks in the way.
work his but off, and work his way up to the rogues pretty basic efforts to manage stealth and he can still roll lower than the rogue who doesn't have to roll. As you said, a caster optimized for stealth is under-optimized for a caster, while a rogue who bothers to make stealth useful isn't spending huge effort to do so.
Have you read anything i've said in this thread?
For the millionth time, this is a simple concept. The wizard can out rogue the rogue and still have some wizard left over. That he doesn't out wizard another wizard while doing this is completely, 100%, totally, irrelevant.
What does a rogue do better than anyone else?
There have been a lot of remarks in this thread that other classes can achieve as-good or better results than rogues for many of the "iconic" rogue abilities.
In almost all cases, these have required the use (in one way or another) of magic. What everyone, as far as I can tell, seems to have forgotten is that while magical solutions do trump mundane solutions, the magic itself is trivially detectable. (The counter-argument is obvious, use abjurations to mask the magical auras, but this represents an even greater expenditure of resources.)
A strength of the Rogue's abilities are that, in almost all cases, those abilities are nonmagical, and thus cannot be defeated by a simple expedient of Dispel Magic (or stronger applications of the same). I grant that Fighters and Barbarians fall into this category too, and to an extent Rangers and Monks, and that the mundane foundation that these classes enjoy is not unique to the Rogue.
What a Rogue does better than anyone else is be simultaneously prepared for a staggering array of contingencies without resorting to magic. Is it a strength that will be called into play often? That depends on your game. Is it a laughable "strength" to have? Perhaps when the party opposes the local goblins, or is engaged to thwart the Archbishop's assassination... When they're up against the Demonic Cult or the Mad Archmage or the local despotic dragon? Not so much.
To be sure, Rogues benefit from magic just as much, in cases more than, other classes. They can, however, make do without and still be able to rely on a great deal of their class mechanics.
Also, as was pointed out a few times before, the game is designed around the assumption of a cooperative effort within the party. Sure, a Wizard could stand in for a Rogue (at the expense of some resources, either daily spells or money and time), but the party is almost certainly better served by having a Rogue that the Wizard can buff at substantially lower expense. Could they have a different class to buff and still come out ahead? Almost certainly. Are there any classes better suited to providing nonmagical versatility? I'd say not.
No you haven't. Knock is not auto-open. Read the spell again instead of posting certain parts, and that chest is still closed.
PS:You or someone else tried the knock thing already, and I shot it down. Your party is probably about to die. I will bring the entire party back to life so you can try again.
This time I won't respond until you make an actual attempt instead of trying to belittle the issue. The chest is a real issue from a real game so instead of assuming you auto-pass tell me what the first action is and who is taking that action. Then I will give you the results of that...
You're going to have to actually respond rather than being flippant.
But you won't because I DEFEATED YOUR CHALLENGE!Fine. Let's play nice.
Beefblower Eisenstein elf wizard 10 (transmuter) 15 pb
s-7 d-12 c-14 I-24 w-10 c-7
Spells Memorized-0-detect magic, doesn't matter
1-identify, grease, doesn't matter etc.
2-knock, alter self, glitterdust, etc.
3-dispel magic x2, shrink item, yadda yadda
4-doesn't matter
5-teleport
Items-eyes of the eagle, headband of int +4 (attuned skills: disable device and diplomacy), cloak of resistance +3, handy haversack, some scrolls but they don't matter.
Skills-regular stuff, sundry knowledges, 10 ranks of perception (total bonus +17), 10 freebie ranks in Disable Device (total bonus +11). Spellcraft/knowledge arcana +20.
Round 1-Casts Detect Magic. If there is an aura, assess school/spell.
Round 2-If there is magic, cast Dispel Magic. Cast detect Magic again.
If no magic. Approach, search chest for traps, take 20. Perception DC 37. Do I find a trap? Is it locked? Tell me so I can proceed.
[For the millionth time, this is a simple concept. The wizard can out rogue the rogue and still have some wizard left over. That he doesn't out wizard another wizard while doing this is completely, 100%, totally, irrelevant.
So, make it a clear setup you are saying you can have a party that is:
Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Wizard
Vs
Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue
And that the Wizard Wizard party would be better off then the Wizard Rogue party?
[For the millionth time, this is a simple concept. The wizard can out rogue the rogue and still have some wizard left over. That he doesn't out wizard another wizard while doing this is completely, 100%, totally, irrelevant.So, make it a clear setup you are saying you can have a party that is:
Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Wizard
Vs
Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, RogueAnd that the Wizard Wizard party would be better off then the Wizard Rogue party?
Correct. Especially if the makeup is
Fightery Fighter, Clericy Cleric, Wizardy Wizard, Roguey Wizard.
Dispel magic suppreses traps for 1d4 rounds, then they start working again. Disable Device vs magical traps will permanently remove the threat.
Dispel magic suppreses traps for 1d4 rounds, then they start working again. Disable Device vs magical traps will permanently remove the threat.
Or in some cases, and with a good enough skill check, allow the trap to be bypassed rather than disabled - cunningly useful both if you think it likely that you might be followed by less-than-savory folk, and also in the event that a clever foe has rigged all of his magical traps to somehow register that they are functioning...
<flunky examines wall map> "Boss, one of the lights for the East passage went out..."
Now fighter in full plate is down a 20-30' pit and has taken a little bit of damage. He's out of the combat for awhile, and can be subject to enemy 'fun' that can take him out even longer (causing him to fall). How do you rate the effectiveness of an enemy that does this? Seems to me as if the trap is doing its full CR 1-3 worth here.
You're cheating there. That trap isn't a separate 1-3 cr monster, it has to be added to the experience of the other monsters in the encounter to determine CR.
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Now fighter in full plate is down a 20-30' pit and has taken a little bit of damage. He's out of the combat for awhile, and can be subject to enemy 'fun' that can take him out even longer (causing him to fall). How do you rate the effectiveness of an enemy that does this? Seems to me as if the trap is doing its full CR 1-3 worth here.You're cheating there. That trap isn't a separate 1-3 cr monster, it has to be added to the experience of the other monsters in the encounter to determine CR.
And don't forget the fighter still gets a save vs the fall and can make a climb check to get out.
Now fighter in full plate is down a 20-30' pit and has taken a little bit of damage. He's out of the combat for awhile, and can be subject to enemy 'fun' that can take him out even longer (causing him to fall). How do you rate the effectiveness of an enemy that does this? Seems to me as if the trap is doing its full CR 1-3 worth here.You're cheating there. That trap isn't a separate 1-3 cr monster, it has to be added to the experience of the other monsters in the encounter to determine CR.
To determine CR, yes. To determine XP, no. If you do the math, the pathfinder CR/XP system awards the same total party XP if you calculate an Encounter CR based on the participants and then determine XP for the encounter, or you determine XP per participant based on individual CR and sum those XP values.
Hence, the point that the amount of XP gained from overcoming the encounter is justified by the difficulty of the encounter applies equally well to encounter participants alone or in a group. (Naturally, a GM may decide to award whatever XP he or she likes.)
The point I took from it, though, was that Traps need not be encountered solo, and indeed could present more of an obstacle as printed, without clever modification, if the Traps were part of a multi-participant encounter. This makes sense - if the guards know that there's a pit trap there, naturally they'll pick that spot to make a stand, as it gives them an advantage.
Edit: Really, the printed traps are building blocks just as much as the bestiary entries and the class progressions are. Mix stuff up to create more challenging encounters. I remember one particularly nasty trap+creature creation I was faced with... a fire burst trap and an Iron Golem - the Golem would activate the trap almost every round, and get healed (per its description) while the party got damaged by the fire. That was a tricky one, and I was happy to have a trap specialist with the party...
The point I took from it, though, was that Traps need not be encountered solo, and indeed could present more of an obstacle as printed, without clever modification, if the Traps were part of a multi-participant encounter. This makes sense - if the guards know that there's a pit trap there, naturally they'll pick that spot to make a stand, as it gives them an advantage.
Is there any reason the party wouldn't all get a perception check to spot the trap and be able to say "hey Clanky, avoid the tile with the skull on it" ?
The point I took from it, though, was that Traps need not be encountered solo, and indeed could present more of an obstacle as printed, without clever modification, if the Traps were part of a multi-participant encounter. This makes sense - if the guards know that there's a pit trap there, naturally they'll pick that spot to make a stand, as it gives them an advantage.Is there any reason the party wouldn't all get a perception check to spot the trap and be able to say "hey Clanky, avoid the tile with the skull on it" ?
Why no reason at all, but suppose it isn't marked? Or that every third tile is marked with a skull? Or that the guards the party is fighting are light enough that they don't trigger the trap, and are seen to walk across it several times? Or that the party is chasing the guards in badly lit corridors?
There are plenty of reasons that the perception checks could fail, and even if they succeed, the encounter is made slightly harder by Clanky knowing that he can't walk there - it restrict his movement and maneuvering options.
Why no reason at all, but suppose it isn't marked?
The perception check could fail, but there's little reason for the rest of the party not have perception checks anyway. Even for traps, a min maxed cleric will have a comparable perception roll to a rogue.
Or that every third tile is marked with a skull?
-i just mean that the party could warn the tank about the trap.
Why no reason at all, but suppose it isn't marked?
The perception check could fail, but there's little reason for the rest of the party not have perception checks anyway. Even for traps, a min maxed cleric will have a comparable perception roll to a rogue.
Or that every third tile is marked with a skull?
-i just mean that the party could warn the tank about the trap.
Oh, sure, but having movement restricted is having movement restricted - regardless of whether that restriction comes from falling into a pit trap that caught him by surprise or being told "Don't stand in that square, there's a pit trap." The point is that the warning accomplishes the same effect as the trap going off - restriction of movement and thereby making the combat slightly harder.
Oh, sure, but having movement restricted is having movement restricted - regardless of whether that restriction comes from falling into a pit trap that caught him by surprise or being told "Don't stand in that square, there's a pit trap." The point is that the warning accomplishes the same effect as the trap going off - restriction of movement and thereby making the combat slightly harder.
This situation just isn't the ringing endorsement of the rogue that its meant to be.
Oh, sure, but having movement restricted is having movement restricted - regardless of whether that restriction comes from falling into a pit trap that caught him by surprise or being told "Don't stand in that square, there's a pit trap." The point is that the warning accomplishes the same effect as the trap going off - restriction of movement and thereby making the combat slightly harder.This situation just isn't the ringing endorsement of the rogue that its meant to be.
I never meant that statement to be a ringing endorsement of the Rogue. This next one, however...
In fact, looking for traps does need to be declared, and takes (RAW) a move action at minimum.
The Trap Spotter rogue talent is a good way to gain an auto-spot ability for traps in the game. Normally, you can't autospot traps like this. A player has to specifically state that they're looking for traps.
- James Jacobs on the Paizo Rules Questions forum: Dec 6, 2009
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
Trap Spotter (Ex): Whenever a rogue with this talent comes within 10 feet of a trap, she receives an immediate Perception skill check to notice the trap. This check should be made in secret by the GM.
If that party that Clanky is with lacks a Rogue, he might not get his warning. Now that's a small problem if the trap is a simple 30' pit trap, but it's a pretty darn big problem if that 30' pit trap has 2 or 3 rust monsters at the bottom, especially since Clanky will probably land prone. It's a really serious problem is the trap is an energy drain trap that will sap away Clanky's life energy...
A Magical Device Trap of annoyance best dealth with by a rogue.
Magic Missile Stone Finger Trap CR 2
Type magic; Perception DC 26; Disable Device DC 26
Effects
Trigger proximity ( alarm ); Reset automatic 1d4 rounds
Effect spell effect (magic missile, 1d4+1 force damage to one creature within 20 feet)
Technically a magic device trap could fire every round and the best trap for a rogue would be one that is Reflex save based. True a wizard can use Shield in this case to soak the magic missiles but swap that for a repeating Acid Splash, Burning Hands, or other nasty things.
At higher levels replace proximity with vision triggers, now it sees the invisible wizard and keeps spewing chain lighting at anyone within spell range.
There are some traps that a wizard can't deal with resource effectively.
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A Magical Device Trap of annoyance best dealth with by a rogue.
Magic Missile Stone Finger Trap CR 2
Type magic; Perception DC 26; Disable Device DC 26
Effects
Trigger proximity ( alarm ); Reset automatic 1d4 rounds
Effect spell effect (magic missile, 1d4+1 force damage to one creature within 20 feet)
Technically a magic device trap could fire every round and the best trap for a rogue would be one that is Reflex save based. True a wizard can use Shield in this case to soak the magic missiles but swap that for a repeating Acid Splash, Burning Hands, or other nasty things.
At higher levels replace proximity with vision triggers, now it sees the invisible wizard and keeps spewing chain lighting at anyone within spell range.
There are some traps that a wizard can't deal with resource effectively.
Uhmm.. Dispel magic and a ball peen hammer?
Dispel shuts it down for a few moments then you beat it with the hammer till it breaks.
And the crazy traps you all are trying to pull has the same problem all traps have, it's either a save (which anyone can make), or direct damage which the meat shield is designed to suck up while he sunders it.
CR appropriate traps do not make rogues even remotely necessary.
traps ESPECIALLY Magic traps are easily dealt with by the roguish caster.
I removed a post. Play nice.
A Magical Device Trap of annoyance best dealth with by a rogue.
Magic Missile Stone Finger Trap CR 2
Type magic; Perception DC 26; Disable Device DC 26
Effects
Trigger proximity ( alarm ); Reset automatic 1d4 rounds
Effect spell effect (magic missile, 1d4+1 force damage to one creature within 20 feet)
Ok, can you do the math on the cr on this one? A cr 26 to spot and a cr 26 to disable being a cr2 seems cheesey if not wrong. Also... the rogue isn't dealing with that trap at level 2. They can't reliably spot it and they can't reliably disarm it.
Technically a magic device trap could fire every round
-at the cost of sending the CR even higher into the stratosphere.
There are some traps that a wizard can't deal with resource effectively.
I should think that this would apply not just to traps but also to other situations. Having to carry around 62 different gadgets and rely on spellcasting to duplicate what a skilled Rogue can manage with 5 gadgets and no magic kinda seems like a waste of magic to me. Add to that the fact that Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, Disjunction, and Antimagic all shut the wizard down without muck recourse, Antimagic most of all, and I'd say that's a pretty hefty statement in favor of the Rogue.
Granted, one might not initially be opposed by such resourceful foes, but eventually one will be (or one's GM is not exercising the full extent of potential foes to provide a challenging game, for which there is no recourse in class options). Imagining myself as a member of such an adventuring party, I would be considerably more gratified to travel in the company of a common and mundane sneak thief (whose antics required a mundane response to properly counter) than to travel with a roguish Wizard with the depth and breadth of the arcane at his beck and call (whose magics are easily overmatched by a flunky with a wand/staff/scroll of the appropriate catch-all counterspelling/dispelling effect).
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As for speak with dead, I'd rather spend 15 minutes finding out where [b]ALL[\b] the treasure in this lair is then 2+ hours while the rogue takes 20 to search every 10'x10' area in the lair looking for where the BBEG hid the good loot including whatever is in the chest.
Active perception checks are just a move action and there are several options that can reduce this to a free action. My thief (who makes active perception checks as free actions) just sweeps the dungeon as he moves through it, so it takes him no extra time to search.
Have you read anything i've said in this thread? For the millionth time, this is a simple concept. The wizard can out rogue the rogue and still have some wizard left over. That he doesn't out wizard another wizard while doing this is completely, 100%, totally, irrelevant.
Apologies if someone's already addressed this, as I've only skimmed the thread, but can the wizard out rogue the rogue in an antimagic field?
the flying invisible wizard is a poor set of assumptions
you can't really guarantee permanent flight without being a 15th level air elemental bloodline sorcerer.
you can get close with overland flight, but you have to recast that every day. 10 hours at 10th level is still not permanent. for 20 hours a day, you have to blow 2 of your 5th level slots. this is a real problem in combat because you have drastically lowered your overall resources.
none of the invisibility spells really have a decent duration. and only a single one of them doesn't end upon performing a hostile action. which casting dispel magic is considered. and greater invisibility is a 4th level spell with the 2nd shortest duration of it's family. a 4th level spell is major resource to burn. and definitely not sufficient to rely on.
and knock, a 2nd level spell isn't really enough to rely on either.
a wizard is not a sorcerer. he cannot instincively cast a spell on the fly. he has to prepare. which is a lot of time that can be easily interrupted.
A CL3rd wand of knock costs 4500 gold pieces a pop. and that will not reliably open most locks without lots of trial and error.
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As for speak with dead, I'd rather spend 15 minutes finding out where [b]ALL[\b] the treasure in this lair is then 2+ hours while the rogue takes 20 to search every 10'x10' area in the lair looking for where the BBEG hid the good loot including whatever is in the chest.
Active perception checks are just a move action and there are several options that can reduce this to a free action. My thief (who makes active perception checks as free actions) just sweeps the dungeon as he moves through it, so it takes him no extra time to search.
Have you read anything i've said in this thread? For the millionth time, this is a simple concept. The wizard can out rogue the rogue and still have some wizard left over. That he doesn't out wizard another wizard while doing this is completely, 100%, totally, irrelevant.
Apologies if someone's already addressed this, as I've only skimmed the thread, but can the wizard out rogue the rogue in an antimagic field?
CR appropriate traps do not make rogues even remotely necessary.
This is undeniably true, nothing makes a rogue *necessary* in an adventuring party.
traps ESPECIALLY Magic traps are easily dealt with by the roguish caster.
Unless you find them the hard way (as would be easy to do in the midst of a running combat), in which case the trap gets to fire at least once.
I grant that many traps are easily dealt with by a roguish caster. I do not grant that, once fired, many traps are easily dealt with by a roguish caster in a reasonable length of time.
Ex: <trap fires mid-combat> <all creatures within 40 feet make will saves> <those who fail are Plane Shifted to the Elemental Plane of Water> <those who save or were outside the radius remain in the room with an open portal to the Elemental Plane of Water in front of them, and must make reflex saves against the wall of water that surges out>
Ex: <trap fires mid-combat> <the floor of the room rotates 90 degrees left, and becomes a new wall> <there is no new floor, just a yawning black abyss> <reflex saves to grab on to the new wall>
Ex: <semi-magical trap is discovered> <Cleric examines trap> "If we dispel the magical aspect of the trap, it collapses the mountain on top of us. If we don't dispel the magical aspect of the trap, it sounds the alarm and the whole complex will know exactly where we are. Or we go back and find another way in."
Apologies if someone's already addressed this, as I've only skimmed the thread, but can the wizard out rogue the rogue in an antimagic field?
I have, tangentially, and the answer is still "No." ^_^ This was the first thing that occurred to me...
Apologies if someone's already addressed this, as I've only skimmed the thread, but can the wizard out rogue the rogue in an antimagic field?
-Seriously, if thats what you're relying on as a point you've lost. First off, anti magic fields are so rare that they barely warrant consideration. Secondly, Yes, a roguey wizard can be about 90% as effective as the real thing in an anti magic field. Its inane to try to argue that the party needs to underpowered 99.999 percent of the time so they'll be prepared for the rest of it.