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Robert Downey Jr's Sherlock Holmes certainly was a Rogue, given his anatomical sneak attack abilities :)High int, trapfinding (the razorwire Watson almost ran into), Disguise, Knowledges, Linguistics, he was definitely a Rogue.Or a Detective Bard :O
I think Holmes knowledge certainly mimics bardic knowledge.
That would be Batman. ;)
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Yes. Here's why: opportunity costs.When a player decides to play a rogue what they have decided is that they will bring NONE of those limited resources to the table. That means that if someone decides to play a caster and they have to use ALL of their resources to fill in for the rogue, then the net result is zero gain and zero loss. Any gain in power after that is a bonus. this holds true if the wizard is using 50, 60, or even 90% of his spells as a faux rogue: the player and the party still get more power than if they'd brought a rogue.
I'm not seeing this. When a Rogue uses skills you're not using *any* limited resources to achieve what is arguably the same result for using your spells. Leaving all your spells for other uses. If you're using 2 casters to replace one Rogue and one caster you have more limited resources. More of a limited resource is still not as flexible / useful as a limitless resource. You can run out of spells, particualrly of a specific one, while skills are an unlimited resource. Two casters will get you more raw power than one Rogue and one caster for a limited time, but skills are forever. In a "stealth" oriented mission (which I would presume this to be given the emphasis on replacing Rogue skills with spells) you are rarely going to be on the upper end of the power equation. Or it probably wouldn't be a stealth mission.
Ok, I have to respond here since the point he's trying to make is so painfully clear.
Yes skills are forever but the probability of having to use them more than 2-3 times each in any given adventure is almost nil. 2-3 scrolls/spell slots/wand charges is a negligible cost leaving all of the rest of the resources the caster has available to handle a challenge that ISN'T skill related.As a caster levels the relative value of a single percent of his available resources is usually near an order of magnitude more valuable then another class's and doubly so against the rogues value since all he really does bring is those skills and a highly situational and erratic damage boost.
Even with a knowledge of the mission it's doubtful that a Wizard could memorize the exact spells that might be needed (and would have to resort to wands, etc.)Or scrolls.
You can drag along all kinds of magical gear, so can the Rogue.
No, they can't. Every piece of gear you speak of bringing along you had to get lucky enough to find or rich enough to commission (and you still need to find someone to make it for you). The caster doesn't have to find them, he gets them if he wants them, faster, cheaper and easier then anyone else plus he can provide them to everyone in the party, the rogue cannot.
Its not that hard. If your party is doubling down on wizards your off- wizard can get most of the benefit of the rogue class out of taking one level of it or even blowing feats on skill focus for the important stuff.
In which case you're probably better off having the "real deal"...
Not really, here's the real issue and we'll put it simple.
A). There is a challenge that needs to be solved.
B). Either the rogue will use his resources to solve it (sneak, trapfinding, diplomacy, etc.) the damage dealers will kill it (routinely better damage output, better survivability, more stable results) or the caster will use their resources to solve it (spells, wands, scrolls, etc. to kill, control or just destroy it)
C). After this challenge is done another challenge will happen and it's one that can't be solved with the rogue's class skills. (Hypothetically let's use a stone wall blocking a passage as an example)
D). the damage dealers will beat it down (routinely better damage output, better survivability, more stable results) or the caster will use their resources to solve it (spells, wands, scrolls, etc. to kill, control or just destroy it)
Reduce it to it's basic points and you'll see that end of the day anyone can provide the minimum level of competence to fill the rogues job but only the most perfectly optimized rogue can provide the minimum level of competence to fulfill someone else's job (damage dealer) but is completely incapable of doing the casters job (casters have too many different options).
This is the main point, everything a rogue brings to the party someone else can easily provide but the rogue [b]CAN'T[\b] do the same for any other class. It doesn't have the flexibility, it's really just a one trick pony and not a very good trick at that.
Rogues have flexibility in spades
Flexibility to do what exactly?
I don't have a clue as to why you'd say otherwise.
Because i love playing versatile, dynamic, off the wall outside of the box type characters that are effective and the rogue does NOT help me do that. The rogue is more or less confined to reality while the limits of the game are so much more. The rogues abilities are more or less set in stone compared to what i like to work with.
I have people TELL me how outside of the box and versatile rogues are. What they show me... is not.
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Rogues have flexibility in spadesFlexibility to do what exactly?
I don't have a clue as to why you'd say otherwise.Because i love playing versatile, dynamic, off the wall outside of the box type characters that are effective and the rogue does NOT help me do that. The rogue is more or less confined to reality while the limits of the game are so much more. The rogues abilities are more or less set in stone compared to what i like to work with.
I have people TELL me how outside of the box and versatile rogues are. What they show me... is not.
+1 to this.
Rogues can be very good at what they do but unlike all the other classes available they are stuck with what reality gives them to work with. All the other classes have abilities that CHANGE reality to suit their whims. (Except fighters, but they are compensated for that deficiency by ENORMOUS hit and damage abilities.)Until rogues get something to let them change the rules of the world they live in or get a massive combat boost they will always be a sub-optimal choice.
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Looking closely at the PF rogue it seems that the changes to the skill point system and the consolidation of skills have seriously hurt the PF rogue. In 3.x anyone trying to imitate a rogue had a much harder time and found themselves less and less effective skill wise. They had to buy a lot more skills to do the basic rogue jobs and get half the value for their skill points.
The trap finding class ability is nice but being available at 1st makes one level of rogue all you really need if the job is to find traps and open doors. In general a rogue seems to really benefit from multi-classing.
Looking at the rogue talents I was rather underwhelmed. A few talents were truly neat but most were not to great. And mentally comparing them to a wizard who will have a few extra spells on top of the skills the talents really seem to pale in comparison.
I really wanted rogues to come out looking good.
All that said they are still a really fun class. If you are willing to really spread your skill points you can have 21 skills at about half points for your level. I have played a rogue like that and it is fun to say, "I can do that." to so many skills. I have also played in games where intrigue and sneaking were almost required. Fighters had to wear light armor to avoid getting the whole party found out.
As I said in my first post; it really comes down to your group, your game, and your play style. Lots of people have fun with rogues.
....The caster doesn't have to find them, he gets them if he wants them, faster, cheaper and easier then anyone else plus he can provide them to everyone in the party, the rogue cannot
He is not guaranteed to have them. Every spell he has for the sake of rogue duplication might have been a spell that could have been more useful in general.
This is the main point, everything a rogue brings to the party someone else can easily provide but the rogue [b]CAN'T[\b] do the same for any other class. It doesn't have the flexibility, it's really just a one trick pony and not a very good trick at that.
That is false as an absolute statement. There are certain scenarios, but it is not true across the board which is how it is being presented.
-BNW wrote: opportunity costs.
I'm not seeing this. When a Rogue uses skills you're not using *any* limited resources to achieve what is arguably the same result for using your spells.When your rogue uses his inexhaustible supply of skills you are using the most limited resource of all: the one character you get to play. Having a rogue's abilities aren't free. You opted to have them instead of having a wizard, a druid, or a cleric.
In pathfinder this is also a false dichotomy. There is no reason that your caster cannot grab the rogue skills that they need.
As you either missed or decided not to answer my other question, how about you provide your wizard based character that files the rogue's role.
Even better if you provide one for 1st, 5th and 10th level.
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He is not guaranteed to have them. Every spell he has for the sake of rogue duplication might have been a spell that could have been more useful in general.
....The caster doesn't have to find them, he gets them if he wants them, faster, cheaper and easier then anyone else plus he can provide them to everyone in the party, the rogue cannot
He is guaranteed to have them if he wants them. Every level up he gets to freely pick any two spells he wants, no problem. If he wants a specific magic item he just makes it for himself. It only costs a feat and if he wants to spend that feat he will.
This is the main reason you play casters, uber-flexibility and total access to anything you want if you want it bad enough.And just because he spent the time to learn 1 or 2 or 20 spells to fulfill one of the rogues abilities nothing stops him from still having every other spell he wants. The only limit to a wizards spell list is his interest in adding another spell to it.
This is the main point, everything a rogue brings to the party someone else can easily provide but the rogue [b]CAN'T[\b] do the same for any other class. It doesn't have the flexibility, it's really just a one trick pony and not a very good trick at that.That is false as an absolute statement. There are certain scenarios, but it is not true across the board which is how it is being presented.
Name one scenario where it isn't true. Give me ONE situation where the rogue has an ability or skill or trick that can't be duplicated by another class. You know what, give me a scenario where 3 other classes couldn't do it just as well.
Trick question, there isn't one.
As you either missed or decided not to answer my other question
Being able to do something all day every day is irrelevant to a PC. You only need to be able to do it long enough to adventure.
How about you provide your wizard based character that files the rogue's role.
Even better if you provide one for 1st, 5th and 10th level.
Certainly. I should have one by tommorow. Magic items always take me a while. Hero labs item buying system is needlessly annoying.
Perhaps you could provide an example of a rogue who's slot the wizard would be replacing as my character? Everyone seems to have a different idea of what the right rogue is and what their role is supposed to be. Last time someone made a scout focused rogue , and the wizard was a bit squishy for that so i used a druid instead.
As you either missed or decided not to answer my other questionBeing able to do something all day every day is irrelevant to a PC. You only need to be able to do it long enough to adventure.
This seems to be the crux of the argument. Being able to do something all day every day, on demand, at the cost of say SPELLS vs. being able to do what is needed to be done when it is needed, i.e. MAYBE a few times a day.
Wow, rogues can stealth all they want to, all day. Nevermind there will never be a 24 hour scenario where you are hiding or scouting without a party, and if there is they're either dead or you're about to be.
Hey, wizards are able to make the whole party invisibe so we don't have to break up the band just to scout. I can also make us all fly, how about that? You, rogue, since you think you're so awesome, you can walk on the ground with the rest of the cattle.
He is guaranteed to have them if he wants them. Every level up he gets to freely pick any two spells he wants, no problem. If he wants a specific magic item he just makes it for himself. It only costs a feat and if he wants to spend that feat he will.
He is not guaranteed. It cost time and money, along with the feat. You are assuming the first two are in abundance.
This is the main reason you play casters, uber-flexibility and total access to anything you want if you want it bad enough.
That is why you play casters.
And just because he spent the time to learn 1 or 2 or 20 spells to fulfill one of the rogues abilities nothing stops him from still having every other spell he wants. The only limit to a wizards spell list is his interest in adding another spell to it.
Money and the chance to learn the spell. In theory a wizard can get every spell he wants. In an actual game where money goes to other things it is not as easy.
Name one scenario where it isn't true.
There is a chest found after a boss fight. Who is going to open it and how? Level 10 character 15 pb, standard wealth.
[b]Give me ONE situation where the rogue has an ability or skill or trick that can't be duplicated by another class.b
Define duplicated? Do you mean use the exact same ability or using another ability to achieve the same results?
There is a chest found after a boss fight. Who is going to open it and how? Level 10 character 15 pb, standard wealth.
Um...knock?
Okay. Search the chest (perception, take 20). If it is locked, cast Knock (d20+CL+10 or ave 30 at level 10). If it is trapped magically, cast dispel magic. If it is trapped mundanely just have the fighter bust it open.
What do I win?
Being able to do something all day every day is irrelevant to a PC. You only need to be able to do it long enough to adventure.
And if you cast 3 "I wish I was a rogue spells" when you needed 4 then you are not doing it long enough. It is not a game ender, but you probably have to rest or return to town to buy scrolls now which is also money that could have went towards something else. Depending on the circumstances they now know someone has been there making the task harder.
Hey, wizards are able to make the whole party invisibe so we don't have to break up the band just to scout. I can also make us all fly, how about that? You, rogue, since you think you're so awesome, you can walk on the ground with the rest of the cattle.
The rogue does not have access to fly or invis because...?
At level 19-20, which is what you're talking about. None, though weapon focus/spec and training add up to +8/10 (with dueling gloves) if my math is correct.
Indeed, which is a fair bit less than sneak attack, and just as sneak goes up as you level, so does the fighters weapon training and fighter only feat mechanics. But rogue is more damage.
But a strength of 30+, power attack, a crit range of 15-20 and the crit feats make it pretty brutal.
But there is nothing in the game that stops a rogue from doing the exact same thing. They get nearly as many bonus feats and neither class gets any bonus strength or crit range... Its just that most folks build dex/finesse rogues and waste feat slots making that viable while never getting any kind of extra damage from it. If you want to be a rogue who does well in combat, it's a bad way to make your character.
Or archery. Base archery is pretty dang badass. I mean if we're talking about wild theoretical possibilities then the rogue wins.
We aren't talking wild theoreticals, we are talking basic numbers on the character sheets and average damage outcomes. It's just that for some reason people thing Rogue = Dex and it doesn't have to be that way. Like any class you can take it in multiple directions and an all out murderous thug who stabs you in the liver is one of those directions that many folks seem to have a mental block on.
There is a chest found after a boss fight. Who is going to open it and how? Level 10 character 15 pb, standard wealth.Um...knock?
Okay. Search the chest (perception, take 20). If it is locked, cast Knock (d20+CL+10 or ave 30 at level 10). If it is trapped magically, cast dispel magic. If it is trapped mundanely just have the fighter bust it open.
What do I win?
Broken potions, a ruined lead lined chest, and an imprisoned fighter.
-James
If you explain to me how a non-magical trap imprisons the fighter I'll give you this one. But you can't.
Also, if we're level 10 and all we lose is some potions, good riddance.
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A wizard does not need a bunch of spells to do a rogue's job. A 9 wiz/1 rogue will do all of the common rogue jobs as good if not better than a rogue. The spells are the icing on the cake.
Let us take a Human wizard with 18 int (including the +2). It is not far fetched. At every wizard level he gets 2+4+1=7 skill points. If he puts two points into: perception & disable device he still has 5 left for other stuff. Lets say he uses them for spellcraft, stealth, acrobatics, and two knowledges. Once he takes one rogue level for trap-finding he can fill a rogue's role easily.
It does require that one rogue level but otherwise he is more effective than a rogue of equal level. His spell flexibility lets him do a lot of things.
Now there are situations where he will fail. Cases where the rogue could shine, for example if he needs to climb and has to cast spider climb a lot. But i think that will usually be the exception rather than the rule.
There is a chest found after a boss fight. Who is going to open it and how? Level 10 character 15 pb, standard wealth.Um...knock?
Okay. Search the chest (perception, take 20). If it is locked, cast Knock (d20+CL+10 or ave 30 at level 10). If it is trapped magically, cast dispel magic. If it is trapped mundanely just have the fighter bust it open.
What do I win?
If it was that easy I would not have posted a 10th level guideline. You might want to give this one serious thought.
Try again, and give me steps. You don't need a full stat block, but the class of the character and his stats for the particular attempts will be needed.You can either use a random dice generator or assume a roll of 9 and the 11 alternating since that averages to about a 10 on the dice.
edit:I prefer you do this how you would do it in a real game though.
And if you cast 3 "I wish I was a rogue spells" when you needed 4 then you are not doing it long enough. It is not a game ender, but you probably have to rest or return to town to buy scrolls now which is also money that could have went towards something else.
Or you open the door with a the fighters head. The sneaky wizard running out of the right spell is less than optimal but it is by no means a day ender.
And if you cast 3 "I wish I was a rogue spells" when you needed 4 then you are not doing it long enough. It is not a game ender, but you probably have to rest or return to town to buy scrolls now which is also money that could have went towards something else.Or you open the door with a the fighters head. The sneaky wizard running out of the right spell is less than optimal but it is by no means a day ender.
What makes you think the problem is a door? Swords and full BAB don't solve every problem in the game.
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Rogues are only obsolete if you believe there is only one style of play.
Other classes would equally suffer the same fate through different dogma.
Fortunately Pathfinder makes all classes 'obsolete' because NONE of them are 'Essential'.
-BNW wrote: opportunity costs.When your rogue uses his inexhaustible supply of skills you are using the most limited resource of all: the one character you get to play. Having a rogue's abilities aren't free. You opted to have them instead of having a wizard, a druid, or a cleric.
In pathfinder this is also a false dichotomy. There is no reason that your caster cannot grab the rogue skills that they need.
I take it you play APs and the players customize / optimize their characters with that in mind? If not, it would be interesting to know how they picked just the right spells / skills / feats ahead of time for what you think is a rare mission. The Rogue selects for what he does. He's not a caster, or a combat type. Stealth is, for the most part, his bit.
My players exist in a sand box campaign for years playing the same characters across dozens of adventures of all types. My players don't choose spells, skills or feats because of one adventure.
You talk about "opportunity costs", what are the opportunity costs for the caster who has decided to "stealth" his character and spend his limited skill points / feats / spell selections on the off chance that it will be useful over time? Most of my players over the years (35 now to be exact) who have played casters did so to use magic, not to immitate a Rogue. If they want to do stealth they choose a Rogue, Ranger or the like. It's a different playing style. Anybody can do a point buy build for a specific mission that will put the caster ahead of the game for that mission / adventure. They do the character they want to play, no matter the adventure. More, or less useful, depending on what they've gotten themselves into.
The spells are a more useful resource than anything a rogue brings to the table because they are FAR more powerful.
My point being why waste the slots doing something a skill can do.
You're playing in a very unusual campaign if you can exhaust a wand of knock before you can replace it.
Hopefully, but then you spent the resources to create it (or bought it, or if you were lucky, found it). How many wands / staves / devices are you going to tote along?
Here's the thing with that. 1) how often are missions stealth missions? 2)a related point, Can the rogue function with the party in stealth mode?
A lot of adventures require stealth at certain points, some center on it. That depends on the campaign. As for functioning, mine have. Are they dragging the whole party behind them? Sometimes yes, othertimes, no. Different players / classes take the lead depending on what's happening.
Unless the entire party tailors itself around sneaking a stealth mission is impossible/unlikely with the entire party there. This means that the rogue has to go off alone to do his thing. this is both dangerous and boring for all the other players to sit around while the rogue does stuff. It happens occasionally but for the occasionally but for the reasons above its not common.
I never said it was common. You set the type of mission, not me.
the wizard can make said magical gear though. Sometimes overnight.
Sure can. Just takes time and resources to do what the Rogue can do on the fly.
Not really because the copy is only marginally worse than the original at what the original is supposed to be good at and is far superior at other things. Make or show me the rogue that's the real deal. Its not a poor imitation. Its a reasonable facsimile.
A reasonable facsimile... at the cost of tremendous resource expenditure. Are spells more powerful than skills? Yes. Does a caster get fewere skills and feats thatn a Rogue? Yes. And you're blowing them to do what a Rogue can do with just skills?
You have the wrong starting point. Think outside of the box.The starting point for comparing optimization/power level is NOT your class it is your ROLE or function in the party: what it is that you want your character to be able to contribute to the success of the group. You are not starting with a wizard and then saying "what can i do to be the best at what i want this character to accomplish" You start with a concept, idea, or role and then say "whats the best way to pull this off". Many people want to play (or think someone needs to play) the door opening trap finder. They think that that automatically means rogue. It does not have to.
I am thinking outside the AP, but in the sandbox :) My players choose what they want to play, over time, not the "role they must take" for the party. Different playing style. Given that my players often don't know what they will stumble over or decide to do next (or a year down the line) they focus on what they want for thier character.
That a wizard taking wizardy abilities is more powerful than a wizard taking roguey abilities is not the question. The question is "Is a wizard taking roguey feats better at fulfilling the function of the party sneak than the rogue." A wizard to wizard comparison is irrelevant. All that matters is the caster to rogue comparison.
Again a different style of play. And no, the caster to Rogue comparison is not all that matters. It's "is my character what I wanted him to be". That matters.
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This is where we differ. I can see mechanical advantages.Show them.
You're kidding, right? One quicky then. How long does a Disguise last and how long does an Alter Self spell last? A disguise lasts as long as needed. Checks occur only if someone is suspicious (a city guard takes 10 on his check at the gate for example). People who aren't suspicious don't bother checking. It does happen every hour if you're disguised as a specific individual and in the presence of someone who knows them (something Alter Self can't do iirc). And all those magical techniques that trip up a magical disguise don't do squat to a mundane one. Alter self is one minute per level. It does have some side benefits I admit, but magic sees through it. Overall, I'd say advantage Disguise. Ymmv.
There is no adventure that requires an unlimited amount of anything. The question is whether the amount you need will exceed the amount you have if you're playing a caster instead of a rogue. A well prepared wizard should be able to have more than enough juice to get you through the day, and it gets more and more likely as you level. Even if for some reason you need to open 100 doors on an adventure there's no reason the wizard can't take disable device. Given how easy it is to use cross class skills these days you would have to be incredibly stuck with preconceived notions to fall into the dichotomy.
Not really because the copy is only marginally worse than the original at what the original is supposed to be good at and is far superior at other things. Make or show me the rogue that's the real deal. Its not a poor imitation. Its a reasonable facsimile.
True, there are limits to everything. And yes, a high level caster makes a better faux Rogue. If he's made the "right" choices to immitate the Rogue and prepped his whole life for the role. It is easier to take / use cross class skills in PF. The question should be why you would want to. In a game where the player is filling a "role" in the party it makes sense. In a game where the player is living a life it probably doesn't. Make me a caster that can do "everything" a Rogue can do, in a sandbox environment and still match up to other casters who have focused on "magic" and be useful in other types of adventures.
I don't think we'll agree because we are working from very different starting positions / game styles with different game choices confronting the players. Still, an interesting excursion into alternatives.
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I know this will not solve anything, but here goes anyways:
Average McThiefyGuy
CG Medium Elf Rogue 1 (20 pt buy)
Init +6 Senses: Low-light vision, Perception +7 (+8 vs Traps)
Speed 30, Languages: Common, Elven, Giant
Defense
AC 17 Touch 15 FF 12 (Armor +2, Dex +4, Dodge +1)
HP 9 (1d8+1)
Fort +2 Ref +6 Will +1 (+2 vs Enchantment Spells/Effects)
Immune: Magical Sleep
Offense
Ranged Dagger +4 (1d4+2 19-20/x2) Range 10
or Sling +4 (1d4+2 20/x2) Range 50; Ammo 10 normal_______
Melee Rapier +2 (1d6+2 18-20/x2)
Sneak Attack +1d6
BAB 0 CMB 2 CMD 17
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8
SQ: Low-light vision, Keen Senses, Elven Immunities, Desert Runner (+4 Constitution checks & Fort saves vs. fatigue, exhaustion, forced marches, starvation, thirst, hot or cold environments), Weapon Familiarity (Longbow, Longsword, Rapier, Shortbow)
Favored Class: Rogue (Skills)
Traits: Reactionary (+2 Init), Forlorn (+1 Fort)
Feats: Dodge
Skills: 8/lvl Acrobatics +8, Bluff +3, Climb +6, Diplomacy +3, Disable Device +9, Escape Artist +8, Know(Local) +5, Perception +7, Sleight of Hand +8, Stealth +8
Combat Gear: Lasso, Oil (2), Alchemist’s Fire (2)
Gear: Rapier (20gp/2lbs), Daggers (4) (2gp/1lb), Sling (0gp/0lbs), 10 Sling Bullets (0.1gp/5lbs), Lasso (0.1gp/5lbs), Leather Armor (10gp/15lbs), Thieves Tools (30gp/1lb), 50’ silk rope (10gp/5lbs), Grappling Hook (1gp/4lbs), Backpack (2gp/2lb), Waterskin (1gp/4lbs), Torch (.01gp/1lb), Flint & Steel (1gp/0lb), Belt Pouch (1gp/0.5lbs), 3 days rations (1.5gp/3lbs), Alchemist’s Fire (2) (20gp/1lb), Oil (2) (0.1gp/1lb)
Carrying Capacity Light <58 Med 59-116 Hvy 117-175 Lift 350 Drag 875
Total Weight Carried: 54 lbs (23 in backpack)
Coin: 14gp, 1sp, 9cp
Now, imagine you sit down to a game with 3 other players, and one of them says "Here's my character, I'm playing a rogue."
"Oh great, a drain on the party who can't do anything, just what we need."
But wait, let's examine that statement a bit, in relation to things that may actually happen in a game, why don't we?
Average Party Level is 1, so normal encounters will be at CR 1. Maybe some CR 2's or 3's get added in, and a big boss fight may be CR 4. Just what is our useless rogue doing in said fights, eh?
Against Monsters (or groups)
2 Tieflings AC 16, 10 HP, Melee +3, Ranged +3.
CR 1 Ghoul AC 14, HP 13, Melee Bite +3, 2 Claws +3
CR 1 Amoeba Swarm AC 13, HP 9, Swarm damage and immunities, Cannot stab it.
CR 2 Choker AC 17, HP 16, Melee +6 plus Grab, Constrict, and Strangle.
I could go on, but those are enough for your beginning Monster encounters. Against weapon resistant foes, the smart Rogue utilized energy damage (via flask, wand, or environment, whichever is appropriate). Against Sneak Attack immune critters, fight defensively, retreat, or otherwise confound them while your party mates take 'em out. Anyone else (especially Low-AC, High-HP critters, like most Animals) gets cut and cut good.
Now, against other things, like Traps or similar Hazards.
CR 1: Acid Spraying Skulls Trap (Perception DC 25, Disable DC 25, 2xAcid Splash +5 touch)
Arrow Trap (Perception DC 20, Disable DC 20, Arrow +15, 1d8+1)
The rest of the CR 1 traps are along the same vein (DC 20 / DC 20) with a few exceptions. If there're traps, no-one else is gonna find them, and certainly no-one else is going to be able to do anything about them. Sure, the Wizard could use one of his 2-3 1st level spells to trigger one of them, or the Cleric could do the same. That means they DON'T have that spell for the BBEG or horde of orcs or whatever else later.
This rogue can climb walls, sneak around very successfully, pop most locks you'll encounter, and even filch the sheriff's keys on a good roll. That sounds far from useless for a level 1 character to me.
"But level 1 is no fun!"
"Level 1 is too swingy!"
"You can't do anything cool at low levels!"
Sure, low level is where the Non-Casters traditionally get to do their thing, but it's also where good play habits are formed. If the party has no Rogue, they most likely will not even attempt stealth or subterfuge. They're much more likely to get used to "Summon/SoD/Full-Attack/SoD" combats, and not look for alternative solutions.
Why should they, when the "standard" solution works so well.
The party with the Rogue, however, takes it slow when there might be traps around. They actually may FIND some of them before they trip. A certain motivation for stealth and subtlety may grow. Combat may or may not be a desired outcome for most situations.
All this is not intended as a "proof" or anything so presumptuous. There really is no "wrong" way to play a game such as we're debating. While some may not think the Rogue is worthwhile, others (like myself) certainly do. Just because he doesn't get access to spells does not make him useless, it just means he can't play like a spellcaster.
For a really effective progression, McThiefyGuy will continue to advance the skills as listed, while taking the Scout Archetype and archery feats. As an Elf, the free longbow proficiency certainly does not hurt, and Dodge>Mobility>Shot on the Run is extremely viable when you get to add Sneak Attack every time you move more than 10 feet.
Add in Point Blank, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, and Deadly Aim (that should take you through to level 9 or 11, depending on your talent selections) and Finesse Rogue at some point (like Level 2), and you're keeping up with damage dealt.
It seems to me the general belief of those who suggest the Rogue is "Obsolete" is "If it's not a full-caster, it's useless."
I reject that assertion out of hand.
It seems to me the general belief of those who suggest the Rogue is "Obsolete" is "If it's not a full-caster, it's useless."
Actually they seem to be saying if someone can do your job then you are useless, and they believe anyone can do a rogue's job, but the thing is they keep having to insert different classes.
Using that type of thinking any class can be removed. A sorcerer is close enough to a wizard to do his job, and if you let a cleric's spells count then that makes it even better for a wizard not being useful. A melee focused druid with a powerful animal companion can out DPR a fighter. The same goes for other classes.The rogue is not needed in a typical 4 man party and is probably the most replaceable, but that does not mean it can't add something to the party without a player needed a high level of expertise. Now if the rogue required a high level of skill in order to be useful, like another 3/4 BAB class I won't name then I would understand.
There is a chest found after a boss fight. Who is going to open it and how? Level 10 character 15 pb, standard wealth.
You get the Urban Ranger to open it. He's great at opening traps as well as being reliable in a fight unlike the rogue.
You get the Urban Ranger to open it. He's great at opening traps as well as being reliable in a fight unlike the rogue.There is a chest found after a boss fight. Who is going to open it and how? Level 10 character 15 pb, standard wealth.
You have obviously never been in a fight with a well built rogue on the opposing team. I know they are not fighters, but they can still put the hurt on ya.
The ranger is better than a rogue, but I don't know if an urban ranger is better than a rogue. Favored Community, and Knowledge(local) are downgrades IMHO.
He becomes a lot less useful if the scene changes to a non urban area. It is not like the ranger ceases to exist after the trap is bypassed, and the player would not have to worry about losing his use of community abilities due to being out in the wild or something.
The rogue functions in the wild, and in the communities.
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If you explain to me how a non-magical trap imprisons the fighter I'll give you this one. But you can't.
Also, if we're level 10 and all we lose is some potions, good riddance.
Magical trap had it's aura concealed by the lead lining. If there also was a flask of mundane acid or alchemist fire, there could have been much more lost treasure, or quest items in there.
Magical trap had it's aura concealed by the lead lining. If there also was a flask of mundane acid or alchemist fire, there could have been much more lost treasure, or quest items in there....
If you explain to me how a non-magical trap imprisons the fighter I'll give you this one. But you can't.
Also, if we're level 10 and all we lose is some potions, good riddance.
Im not sure lead lining would do it, besides, what is the rogue going to do? So instead of the fighter being imprisoned the rogue is, but i suppose thats a win in and of itself.
I am not sure about the lead either. From my understand a spell is cast on the chest when they are trapped, not cast inside the chest, not that my example is using imprisonment though.
I am not sure about the lead either. From my understand a spell is cast on the chest when they are trapped, not cast inside the chest, not that my example is using imprisonment though.
Either way, if knock didnt open it and it doesnt detect as magic you can be pretty damn sure its somehow bugged
I am not sure about the lead either. From my understand a spell is cast on the chest when they are trapped, not cast inside the chest, not that my example is using imprisonment though.Either way, if knock didnt open it and it doesnt detect as magic you can be pretty damn sure its somehow bugged
Most likely true, but on average a level 10 caster can only open a DC 20 lock.
prd=When you complete the casting of this spell, make a caster level check against the DC of the lock with a +10 bonus. If successful, knock opens up to two means of closure.
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He is guaranteed to have them if he wants them. Every level up he gets to freely pick any two spells he wants, no problem. If he wants a specific magic item he just makes it for himself. It only costs a feat and if he wants to spend that feat he will.
He is not guaranteed. It cost time and money, along with the feat. You are assuming the first two are in abundance.
What part of 2 free automatic spells of his choice every level up did you not understand?
Costs no money or time it just magically appears in the book.As for the items whatever cost is associated with them it will cost the rogue twice as much since the wizard can craft them himself if chooses to.
And just because he spent the time to learn 1 or 2 or 20 spells to fulfill one of the rogues abilities nothing stops him from still having every other spell he wants. The only limit to a wizards spell list is his interest in adding another spell to it.
Money and the chance to learn the spell. In theory a wizard can get every spell he wants. In an actual game where money goes to other things it is not as easy.
Time and money are what an adventuring wizard has most.
Spend 2-4 days adventuring and earn 2000 gold and lounge around the house for a month living off the proceeds is kinda what adventurers do. The wizard just takes a break in there to buy/research a new spell. All it takes is time and money.Name one scenario where it isn't true.
There is a chest found after a boss fight. Who is going to open it and how? Level 10 character 15 pb, standard wealth.
Uhmm.. Animate Dead the Boss and tell him to open the chest?
Or the Divine Caster version, speak with dead and make him tell you how to open the chest.While he's at it make it tell me where all the valuables are or just go get them and bring em to me.
That was easy, what else you got?
[b]Give me ONE situation where the rogue has an ability or skill or trick that can't be duplicated by another class.b
Define duplicated? Do you mean use the exact same ability or using another ability to achieve the same results?
Nope, just a situation where the rogue and only a rogue is needed to solve a challenge. Remember the rogue only has 2 real class defining abilities.
A). A broad skill list with plenty of skill pointsBut anyone can take any skill, at best the rogue will be a few points ahead. Big Deal
B). Magical trap detection. Big whoop, two other classes get the same trick and every spellcaster can fake it better then the rogue can.
And I quote:What part of 2 free automatic spells of his choice every level up did you not understand?
He is guaranteed to have them if he wants them. Every level up he gets to freely pick any two spells he wants, no problem. If he wants a specific magic item he just makes it for himself. It only costs a feat and if he wants to spend that feat he will.
He is not guaranteed. It cost time and money, along with the feat. You are assuming the first two are in abundance.
He is guaranteed to have them if he wants them. Every level up he gets to freely pick any two spells he wants, no problem. If he wants a specific magic item he just makes it for himself. It only costs a feat and if he wants to spend that feat he will.
It seems to me that were talking about access to magic in general and you mentioned magic items also. How about writing clear post before writing insults, thanks.
Time and money are what an adventuring wizard has most.
Spend 2-4 days adventuring and earn 2000 gold and lounge around the house for a month living off the proceeds is kinda what adventurers do. The wizard just takes a break in there to buy/research a new spell. All it takes is time and money.
Not all games allow you to do things without a time limit so no that is not a valid assumption. Some games are plot-centric. You can chill at the house if you want, but the world might end.
Uhmm.. Animate Dead the Boss and tell him to open the chest?
Or the Divine Caster version, speak with dead and make him tell you how to open the chest.
While he's at it make it tell me where all the valuables are or just go get them and bring em to me.
That was easy, what else you got?
Animate dead makes him into some random undead creature, and since that is most likely a zombie or skeleton it can no more unlock the chest than anyone else.
PRD:Answers are brief, cryptic, or repetitive, especially if the creature would have opposed you in life.
If the dead creature's alignment was different from yours, the corpse gets a Will save to resist the spell as if it were alive. If successful, the corpse can refuse to answer your questions or attempt to deceive you, using Bluff.
Apparently it is not so easy.
By the time you are done trying to play 20 questions with the dead guy assuming you even get him to cooperate the rogue probably has the chest open, and he can go out in the wilderness without losing much unlike the urban ranger.
The chest is locked, but nonmagical, just lined with lead from the inside, which even in thin sheet blocks the detection spells completely. Trap is inside the chest and triggered upon opening, or perhaps by sight or touch. Thus the knock spell unlocks the chest, but does nothing to reveal or disarm the trap and neither do the detection spells. Bursting the chest would open and thus release the Imprisonment. The trap can also be further shielded from detection by false magic auras as well.
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The chest is locked, but nonmagical, just lined with lead from the inside, which even in thin sheet blocks the detection spells completely. Trap is inside the chest and triggered upon opening, or perhaps by sight or touch. Thus the knock spell unlocks the chest, but does nothing to reveal or disarm the trap and neither do the detection spells. Bursting the chest would open and thus release the Imprisonment. The trap can also be further shielded from detection by false magic auras as well.
I'm a little confused on how the rogue is supposed to disarm this trap if it's on the inside of the chest and goes off if it is seen.
Wizard uses knock. Chest opens; people are hit by trap.
Rogue uses unlock. Chest opens; people are hit by trap.
How exactly is he supposed to get this trap disarmed without setting it off?
Well I'm still waiting for someone to point out which class is not obsolete in that it must be included in the group or the group cannot function. Anybody? Or are all classes actually obsolete?
Well I'm still waiting for someone to point out which class is not obsolete in that it must be included in the group or the group cannot function. Anybody? Or are all classes actually obsolete?
All classes are pretty much interchangeable with each other, if the GM is willing to compensate. The Rogue is just a good bit more interchangeable ( and the Monk even more ) than the rest, because Paizo brought out so many classes which drink its milkshake. Drink it right up.
Nope, just a situation where the rogue and only a rogue is needed to solve a challenge. Remember the rogue only has 2 real class defining abilities.
A). A broad skill list with plenty of skill points
But anyone can take any skill, at best the rogue will be a few points ahead. Big Deal
I'd say that rogue has 2 skills more than others, but he is not better at them. For example detecting traps in the big city Urban Ranger has Trapfinding & Favored Community bonuses to find traps and thus is better than Rogue. In other areas they are as good. At least Inquisitor & Ranger get stealth bonuses (and Perception bonuses that are not related to traps), Rogue does not, so he isn't a very good scout either. Same is true for all skills in the game (=Rogue is not a top notch in any of them even without the other class using magic).
B). Magical trap detection. Big whoop, two other classes get the same trick and every spellcaster can fake it better then the rogue can.
Everyone can detect magical traps now. Only few can disable them without use of magic. That makes that ability even more useless.
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The problem with Rogues is that they are in the top tier only against traps. And traps have been nerfed a LOT during the development of DD & PF. Traps used to be like Flesh to Stone->Stone to Mud->Open Gate to the plane of water to dissolve the remains in the vast waters. Now for example
Arrow Trap (Perception DC 20, Disable DC 20, Arrow +15, 1d8+1)Now this is more like it. This is the kind of trap I'd expect to see in a Level 1 adventure. You spot it on a 12, which ain't too bad, and disable on an 11. Not too shabby for level 1.
is a minor nuisance witch can't even knock 1st level character unconsious. If that trap fired 3-4 arrows (= had a chance to kill straight away 1st level character ), the value of trapfinding would get back up.
The chest is locked, but nonmagical, just lined with lead from the inside, which even in thin sheet blocks the detection spells completely. Trap is inside the chest and triggered upon opening, or perhaps by sight or touch. Thus the knock spell unlocks the chest, but does nothing to reveal or disarm the trap and neither do the detection spells. Bursting the chest would open and thus release the Imprisonment. The trap can also be further shielded from detection by false magic auras as well.I'm a little confused on how the rogue is supposed to disarm this trap if it's on the inside of the chest and goes off if it is seen.
Wizard uses knock. Chest opens; people are hit by trap.
Rogue uses unlock. Chest opens; people are hit by trap.
How exactly is he supposed to get this trap disarmed without setting it off?
Well, is there anyplace whe it's said how the rogue (or anyone for that matter) finds the trap with his search check? What are the other clues? Nowhere I can remember is also written how the rogue can disarm such trap, only that he can do that.
The chest also doesn't fully open immediately upon unlocking unless the lid has some spring attached to it.
I will say, the art of trap making and placement has rather declined over the years.
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The first thing I notice is people feal you only need a rogue for traps, locked door, and such. This hase more to do with bad character making then bad class. So meny people get sucked in to thinking that a rogue must be this way. Take a deap breath and get rid of the old stuff you know about a rogue.
The 4 most common mastakes made when building a rogue.
1. They are 1D8HD it is only 1 point per level lower then 1D10HD. Alot of people that build rogues dump con for some reason. If they invest and get a 14 con they can get close to fighter HP.
2. You have 8 skill points per level base. Int is not a dump stat but it is not a primary stat. You don't need to put build points in, or if your rolling one of your highest rolls in average is good enough.
3. Traps are not somthing you should focus on when building a rogue. Do you want trapfinding? Yes. Do you need to focus on traps alone? No. Thats one of the bigest problems when people make a rogue. They feal they need to be the best trap experts. You are and don't need to focus on traps to do it. You should plan how to do two other things then traps. A:Combat B:Social Interactions. Your base stat hase so little to do with total skill after level 6. You base stat will effect your total but still be higher then a untrained skill for any one with a high ability score.
4. Combat focus rogue will bring more to the table then traps. And every one at the table will be very happy. They are more effective over all. With there ability to cover multiple roles in a party. There lower BAB dose mean the standard power attack two handed weapon is not the best way to go. It dose not mean they can't do alot of damage. Sneak attack damage is not hard to do. It dose require more awareness of whats going on. For most fights I can say it's the full bab classes that move so it's harder to flank. You just need to get them working with you on geting them in to flanking.
The chest also doesn't fully open immediately upon unlocking unless the lid has some spring attached to it.
actually it does.
Knock opens stuck, barred, or locked doors, as well as those subject to hold portal or arcane lock. When you complete the casting of this spell, make a caster level check against the DC of the lock with a +10 bonus. If successful, knock opens up to two means of closure. This spell opens secret doors, as well as locked or trick-opening boxes or chests. It also loosens welds, shackles, or chains (provided they serve to hold something shut).
So yeah. I think we've successfully beaten you guys' silly challenge.
Knock>Rogue
Any such chest that is magically trapped, in a way that a rogue can detect and disable said trap i.e. trap is on the outside of the chest, can be gotten rid of with a dispel magic.
Also the search DC would have to be insanely high, since you can take 20 on perception to search, and a level 10 [insert class here] can/will (for the sake of argument) have Eyes of the Eagle and possibly a good wis or even perception as a class skill. Looking at between DC 35 (minimum) to DC 46 (max) that a NON rogue wold be able to detect. A cleric who bought the bullet and sunk a skill selection (10 ranks) into perception can take 20 for easily better than the rogue, even WITH "trapfinding".
It seems to me the general belief of those who suggest the Rogue is "Obsolete" is "If it's not a full-caster, it's useless."Actually they seem to be saying if someone can do your job then you are useless, and they believe anyone can do a rogue's job, but the thing is they keep having to insert different classes.
Using that type of thinking any class can be removed. A sorcerer is close enough to a wizard to do his job, and if you let a cleric's spells count then that makes it even better for a wizard not being useful. A melee focused druid with a powerful animal companion can out DPR a fighter. The same goes for other classes.
The rogue is not needed in a typical 4 man party and is probably the most replaceable, but that does not mean it can't add something to the party without a player needed a high level of expertise. Now if the rogue required a high level of skill in order to be useful, like another 3/4 BAB class I won't name then I would understand.
Nice straw man, but no one has said that.
What we're saying is that a rogue is obsolete if another class can do his job AND DO THEIR JOB A THE SAME TIME.A wizard takes Perception (a wise move for everyone really) and chooses Knock and Dispel Magic as two of his spells. Now they don't need a rogue and, really, no party resources were drained.
Again, just to be clear and to nip any further straw-manning in the bud, all I'm saying is that the rogue the least necessary class in the game. Anything he can do, someone else can do better. The only exception, magical traps, are ONLY put in the game to make the rogue feel useful.
You have a dog, and you have a bone. If you only have the dog to chew on the bone, and you only have the bone to give to your dog, then why not get rid of both?
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And I quote:What part of 2 free automatic spells of his choice every level up did you not understand?
He is guaranteed to have them if he wants them. Every level up he gets to freely pick any two spells he wants, no problem. If he wants a specific magic item he just makes it for himself. It only costs a feat and if he wants to spend that feat he will.
He is not guaranteed. It cost time and money, along with the feat. You are assuming the first two are in abundance.
He is guaranteed to have them if he wants them. Every level up he gets to freely pick any two spells he wants, no problem. If he wants a specific magic item he just makes it for himself. It only costs a feat and if he wants to spend that feat he will.It seems to me that were talking about access to magic in general and you mentioned magic items also. How about writing clear post before writing insults, thanks.
Magic only comes in two varieties for PC's, spells and Items and I addressed both options in my posts. Pretty sure any I wasn't being obtuse anywhere in there.
Time and money are what an adventuring wizard has most.
Spend 2-4 days adventuring and earn 2000 gold and lounge around the house for a month living off the proceeds is kinda what adventurers do. The wizard just takes a break in there to buy/research a new spell. All it takes is time and money.
Not all games allow you to do things without a time limit so no that is not a valid assumption. Some games are plot-centric. You can chill at the house if you want, but the world might end.
And your point is? No arbitrary time table was ever proposed on this challenge and if there were one nothing really requires us to care. We're discussing characters who want to function as a thief, not the most socially conscious group of individuals out there.
Uhmm.. Animate Dead the Boss and tell him to open the chest?
Or the Divine Caster version, speak with dead and make him tell you how to open the chest.
While he's at it make it tell me where all the valuables are or just go get them and bring em to me.
That was easy, what else you got?Animate dead makes him into some random undead creature, and since that is most likely a zombie or skeleton it can no more unlock the chest than anyone else....
Sure it does, either the boss will have a key on it's person or know where it is and will go get it to open the chest. Mindless undead don't forget everything they knew when they get animated, they just get slow, and even if they did forget you just give it a rock and it takes 20 beating the lock open and sucking up whatever negative effect is on the chest. Cheaper and safer then having the rogue or fighter doing it.
As for speak with dead, I'd rather spend 15 minutes finding out where [b]ALL[\b] the treasure in this lair is then 2+ hours while the rogue takes 20 to search every 10'x10' area in the lair looking for where the BBEG hid the good loot including whatever is in the chest.
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Mindless undead do forget everything when they are created. They have no INT score. They have no skills. They are "mindless".
Speak with dead and then animate dead is a better option for the scenario you propose. But it has limitations in terms of answers, number of questions and material components.
The rogue's methods will take time but they cost only that. No 25 gp per hd to animate no spending two spells.
Now the treasure map spell in the APG, while costing money, does let you know where all valuables known to the dead creature are located. This is really useful if you kill a creature away from it's lair.
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What hapens if your DM. Dose not let you rest after you started to attack a strong hold. Where it's all or nothing? Thats how I run dungon crawls. If they know you have been there becous you left for 8hr to rest. They are not mindless they are not stupid. They will hunt you down and ambush you when your weak. I do not feal sorry for my players, or any one that thinks the bad guys should stay where they are. And let the players come to them. And I alow players to buy magic items if there in a large city other then that there out of luck.
In this type of encounters the rogus do much better then wizards. As wizards will need to recover spells after a few encounters. If they are not carefull.
Saying the full wizard can do the rogues job. Depends on point buy your working with. It can be very hard with a 15 point buy.
Now a wizard with one or two level of rogue can do the rogues job. And not even slow down or wast spells or ablitiys to do so.
Most of the problems are the same as befor. Players not realy looking at rogues in a new light. And keaping the old thinking of there for traps and locked doors. Remake them in to what you want them to be. Not what they where in later aditions of the game.