Oh, stalking and killing a guy is totally different from mocking them! My original post was solely concerned with Nihimon calling a guy a griefer for what amounted to basic trashtalking. It was honestly more a correction than a complaint—misusing the word reduces the word's impact and causes a "crying wolf" situation. What happens when someone in Golgotha* is griefing and people need to convince the leadership to take complaints seriously?
As for the "results" dealy—I mentioned "being driven to leave" as an example benchmark. Nobody has to leave the game for it to be griefing. Hence my clarification. It's not the reaction of the victim that matters, it's whether what you're doing is harassment or just "poor form". Trashtalking isn't griefing. Being a sore winner isn't griefing. Making fun of the PvP-averse isn't griefing. Stabbing the PvP-averse isn't griefing as long as you have a practical reason (usually). Posting sarcastic threads isn't griefing. Not eating your spinach isn't griefing. That word should not become a mere buzzword for our arguing convenience.
One general benchmark I think usually holds is whether the act is "personal". If a griefer is making general remarks about a demographic (like dem carebears), it's a lot harder to call it griefing than if he's going after a lone guy. It can still be dickish, but it's not griefing. Going after a unified group (like Everbloop) is a bit grayer, of course—it's not as personal, but, again, there are no hard and fast rulings here.
*If this game is at all successful, griefers will pop up in every settlement. This isn't any sort of disparaging remark against Golgotha in particular. :P
*If this game is at all successful, griefers will pop up in every settlement. This isn't any sort of disparaging remark against Golgotha in particular. :P
Why, I oughta.... :-)
Goblin Squad Member
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Oh, stalking and killing a guy is totally different from mocking them! My original post was solely concerned with Nihimon calling a guy a griefer for what amounted to basic trashtalking. It was honestly more a correction than a complaint—misusing the word reduces the word's impact and causes a "crying wolf" situation. What happens when someone in Golgotha* is griefing and people need to convince the leadership to take complaints seriously?
As for the "results" dealy—I mentioned "being driven to leave" as an example benchmark. Nobody has to leave the game for it to be griefing. Hence my clarification. It's not the reaction of the victim that matters, it's whether what you're doing is harassment or just "poor form". Trashtalking isn't griefing. Being a sore winner isn't griefing. Making fun of the PvP-averse isn't griefing. Stabbing the PvP-averse isn't griefing as long as you have a practical reason (usually). Posting sarcastic threads isn't griefing. Not eating your spinach isn't griefing. That word should not become a mere buzzword for our arguing convenience.
One general benchmark I think usually holds is whether the act is "personal". If a griefer is making general remarks about a demographic (like dem carebears), it's a lot harder to call it griefing than if he's going after a lone guy. It can still be dickish, but it's not griefing. Going after a unified group (like Everbloop) is a bit grayer, of course—it's not as personal, but, again, there are no hard and fast rulings here.
*If this game is at all successful, griefers will pop up in every settlement. This isn't any sort of disparaging remark against Golgotha in particular. :P
Fair enough.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I maintain that calling someone "an emotionally weak care bear", and the entire mindset associated with putting yourself into a position where you think that's okay, is bad and wrong for a multitude of reasons. And yeah, I'm pretty adamant about that and willing to go to the mat for it.
You mean calling vague demographics "emotionally weak carebears"? Bluddwolf didn't single out a "someone". :P
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Goblin Squad Member
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Carebear is a slur, not griefing. It is no worse than calling someone a spiteful little so and so or any other derogatory remark.
I try not to do it, but I have been guilty of it as well a few times. That said while it is a whole lot more admirable to avoid commenting to complaints at all calling someone a carebear is not grief. It is just a hateful remark.
On the other end, developers have asked posters to specifically stop using the term in reference to other players. In my book that is a good enough indication you should at least not do that thing, MmKay.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I maintain that calling someone "an emotionally weak care bear", and the entire mindset associated with putting yourself into a position where you think that's okay, is bad and wrong for a multitude of reasons. And yeah, I'm pretty adamant about that and willing to go to the mat for it.
I'm pretty sure, though, that there's a difference between calling "someone" that and referring to a generic, unidentified "someone."
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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You mean calling vague demographics "emotionally weak carebears"? Bluddwolf didn't single out a "someone". :P
I disagree. Bluddwolf simply doesn't know for sure who he was singling out, because in many cases only the reader will see themselves as being addressed.
It's a common practice of bullies and slimy marketing people, talking to someone directly while also retaining the ability to claim (to school faculty, supervisors, or regulatory agencies), that they were only making general statements and didn't know that the target would take it personally.
The people towards whom Bluddwolf was addressing his contempt are real, actual, specific people, even though I cannot identify them by name.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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If you don't see the message "if you are frustrated by my actions, you are [derogatory epithet]", we don't have the shared background to communicate.
If you don't think that message is received by any individuals as directed towards them, I can direct you to some of the philosophy of communication resources that explain what communication is and isn't. Likewise if you claim that the stated intent of the speaker is the controlling factor in anything real.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Okay, then, but you're going to have to forgive those of us who don't remember everything that you few people have ever said to each other, and therefore don't interpret perfectly reasonable sounding remarks exactly the same way you do.
Frankly I find it hard to imagine that any of you are as bad as any of you make the others out to be, but that's your right.
Stop being reasonable Cal. I prefer the Cal that goes apesh1t on Andius.
It makes me uncomfortable to be seen agreeing with Caldeathe. I remember the good old days when I was always at his throat over some dispute or another. We've drifted so far apart since then. :(
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Goblin Squad Member
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He won't believe it if I say it, but one day he's going to be unemployed and depressed and look back and think "Wow, I was so angry at Ryan and maybe one or two other people that I actively campaigned for an enterprise to fail, and said so in public, without giving a moment's thought to the 20+ people who had nothing to do with my anger, and never hurt me, who would be unemployed if I got my way." I'd hate to be him that day.
Unemployed? What, is his boss fated to become a huge PFO fan?
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Goblin Squad Member
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You mean calling vague demographics "emotionally weak carebears"? Bluddwolf didn't single out a "someone". :PI disagree. Bluddwolf simply doesn't know for sure who he was singling out, because in many cases only the reader will see themselves as being addressed.
It's a common practice of bullies and slimy marketing people, talking to someone directly while also retaining the ability to claim (to school faculty, supervisors, or regulatory agencies), that they were only making general statements and didn't know that the target would take it personally.
The people towards whom Bluddwolf was addressing his contempt are real, actual, specific people, even though I cannot identify them by name.
Wow, I'm a master wordsmith. I'm also a master of imposed transference. A master manipulator. A marketing genius. And my insults are like Muhammed Ali's phantom punch, actually even more so because even the victim does not know he is the victim and no one can identify him by name.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Pfft. I mostly feel sad for Andius. I wouldn't wish that much anger on my worst enemy.
How did Andius come into this? Although he and I had some epic battles, we had a certain level of respect for each other's character traits. In the end, I was not the source of Andius' anger, his closets associates were. I don't say this to open an old wound, just clarifying that I had nothing to do with his anger. I may also just be confused by the context of which his name was brought up.
Oh.. Maybe I am just falling victim to transference as well, and inserting myself into an accusation I shouldn't have.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The main reason Bluddwolf and I don't get along is because one of our earliest interactions was me calling him out for pulling this crap on a very real, specific person. The fact that so many others in the community rush to defend Bluddwolf will not deter me.
LOL, this again!! For those who were not hear at the time, this is the post that has led to this...
After reading this forum, the level of PVP that is going to be used means I am highly unlikely to support it, play it or spend money on it. Many of my friends feel the same way. Unless there is a way to flag or unflag PVP or at least set up "no PVP" servers then it is a deal breaker to me. Not every one enjoys PVP and most of the time I have played in mmo's that included it there were always griefers out there that kill players just for the sake of killing them, no matter what the level difference, no matter if it gained them nothing. Most of the time these types of players ruin the fun I have when in a mmo.
Original post: July 29, 2013!!!!
This game will not be to everyone's taste. This is not good and it is not unfortunate, it is just a reality.
I wish you luck in your search for a game that is to your liking.
Jeepers, that Bluddwolf is one harsh bastard!!
Realmwalker would probably thank me for saving him the money. The PvP in PFO wil not be significantly different than a majority of MMOs out there, it is almost identical to the majority.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My next direct comment to Realmwalker:
@ Realwalker
You are considering to play PFO, which is an Open World PVP Sandbox MMO. There is no way for you to avoid all non consensual PVP. There are measures that you can take to mitigate the possibility of it happening, but not complete protection from it.
You could have a bounty placed on you, or an assassin's contract against you. Your settlement could end up going to war. All of these things can lead you to non consensual PVP. You can travel outside of the city gates and into the wilderness, and be assailed by bandits or other characters Hell bent on murder, and not all of these cases will be "random", "greifing" or even "ganking". They are just an important part of the culture that the Devs have envisioned for PFO.
If you still want to give the game a try, that is your choice and I welcome you to it. But, don't expect the game to be any different than what I have written.
OHh.. the humanity!!
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Goblin Squad Member
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My third and final direct post to Realmwalker, but notice how my fantastic wordsmith skills kick into action...
@ Realwalker
It seems there are a few here that are comfortable to try to convince you that your experience in PFO will be secure from the griefing, unwanted PVP that you may have experienced in other MMOs.
If you read the provided links, I'm sure you will be convinced that your fears will be assuaged and you will be able to play in PFO with virtually no unwanted PVP.
Oh, and don't worry about needing a PVE Only server, the few here can guarantee you will never be forced into unwanted PVP.
As a matter of fact, when the next Kickstater is offered, you should kick in as much as you can, because PFo will offer you everything you were never able to get from those other MMOs.
Wow, you guys were right, that feels so much better....
and to this Nihimon replied:
<unnecessary sarcastic condescension>-1
You all see, the only "calling out" that was done was my calling out several posters, including Nihimon for potentially misleading this would be player with the rose colored glasses that he still wears.
What is amazing is that I am still more correct in my statements, almost two years ago, than his are even today.
Or was Golgotha's killing of noob gankers in the starter town of Marchmont, last night, a hoax??
@ Kadere
I bet you did not get to the bottom of that pop corn bag. Put a fork in it, done!!
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Wow, I'm a master wordsmith. I'm also a master of imposed transference. A master manipulator. A marketing genius. And my insults are like Muhammed Ali's phantom punch, actually even more so because even the victim does not know he is the victim and no one can identify him by name.You mean calling vague demographics "emotionally weak carebears"? Bluddwolf didn't single out a "someone". :PI disagree. Bluddwolf simply doesn't know for sure who he was singling out, because in many cases only the reader will see themselves as being addressed.
It's a common practice of bullies and slimy marketing people, talking to someone directly while also retaining the ability to claim (to school faculty, supervisors, or regulatory agencies), that they were only making general statements and didn't know that the target would take it personally.
The people towards whom Bluddwolf was addressing his contempt are real, actual, specific people, even though I cannot identify them by name.
You forgot your implausible deniability.
This explains the concept a little bit too thoroughly. It is a bit of an extended wall of text though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For those interested in the whole sordid story rather than a tiny curated fraction of it, Here is Realmwalker's original post a good ways through the very large and already-heated thread.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You forgot your implausible deniability.
This explains the concept a little bit too thoroughly. It is a bit of an extended wall of text though.
Oh it is too late to read any of that...
I did have time a patience to listen to this entire song:
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Goblin Squad Member
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For those interested in the whole sordid story rather than a tiny curated fraction of it, Here is Realmwalker's original post a good ways through the very large and already-heated thread.
Pages 9 and 10 were where most of my comments came from, and I only included my direct responses to Realmwalker, since that was what was brought up.
Considering the number of people who have come, saw and said "no thank you" since the beginning of Alpha, it is quite surprising that this almost two year old exchange is still a bone of contention.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The fact that so many others in the community rush to defend Bluddwolf will not deter me.
But I do have a feeling it drives you MADDDD!!!
That is what this is really all about. I say something, others agree, and you are stunned or disappointed and dredge up the old Realmwalker thing.
But you seem to forget, that exchange did not go well for you either. I can point to the state of the game now, and although it has improved from alpha, it is still no wheres's near what was described two years ago (I'm referring to the Blogs).
The PVP is very much what I expected it to be. Unfortunately I think the PVE has been less than my expectations and to be honest, about the same amount of grinding as Dark Fall Unholy Wars. I was hoping that escalations would be more like those in Rift, but maybe they will get there.
I think Emerald Spire needs to be brought on sooner, rather than later.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh it is too late to read any of that...You forgot your implausible deniability.
This explains the concept a little bit too thoroughly. It is a bit of an extended wall of text though.
That's too bad, it's really quite fascinating.
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Lovin' this thread so much right now...
But, but, but, it was supposed to be all about *ME*. ;-)
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Goblin Squad Member
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The part that makes me so happy is how Mbando, Nihimon etc. are throwing out this
griefer accusation as though it has some kind of power behind it but aside from dragged up Ryan quotes GW is notably silent.
That means one of two things:
A. Goblinworks doesn't agree with your definition of griefing.
B. They simply don't have the time to deal with such petty matters.
If they don't have time to deal with it with this tiny population size, what makes you think they ever will?
This pleases me VERY greatly because both individuals seemed to think GW's community policement would be perfect, and there would be no use for player run anti-griefer groups. To that I say....
TOLD YOU SO!!!
also...
WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?!
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Goblin Squad Member
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... GW is notably silent.
That means one of two things:
A. Goblinworks doesn't agree with your definition of griefing.
B. They simply don't have the time to deal with such petty matters.
I can't control the universe :p we are moving over to the new forums. If you guys don't want to come we will miss you, but I will be updating the GW forums as to when these features are added.. etc... :) <3
Still rocking those deep analytic skills, I see.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Never really cared for the guy, before or after the fall from grace.
I never cared much for you either. It was evident to me fairly quickly that Pax only cared about subordinate parties. If we didn't want to bow to Pax diplomacy with them would be a wasted effort, and so I never bothered trying to get on your good side after that.
While that seems to be the main thing those within TEO criticized about my time as their leader I think it's pretty apparent now by the Golgothans slaughtering their members despite their efforts to make friends with you that I had the correct approach.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am blissfully unaware of any contracts brokered between the empire and the southern block. The last I was in charge of brokering such contracts, we were still told that there were concerns about any hard line deals with us.
The closest we ever got was an interest in trade contracts, but it never moved to official brokering of terms.
We do have another multi gaming community in our empire Andius. Feel free to contact DEYS or Mystical Awakening and inquire whether their alliance with us requires them to be pasted to the bottoms of "Pax's" heels. You might find the truth is much the opposite.
As usual provide no proofs, claim victory, gloat. Rinse, repeat.
At our first meeting with TEO all I said (that keeps getting inflated to this bogus straw man) is:
"We are not interested now or in the future in joining into an agreement where we do not have a clear benefit"
Selfish? Maybe, we had no interest in being the underdog or being under represented.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They made no deals just a lot of hub-bub on their forums about reversing the damage I had done and their diplomatic efforts with Pax paying off. Now they are dying to Pax members.
The mere fact you need a deal with Pax to not have them slaughter your members prooves my point. It's a legitimate strategy but not the kind of allies I wanted for the group I had built.
The groups you cited are EoX members. Basically your client states. Regardless of how harsh or soft / demanding or lenient your rule is the basic fact remains they are your underlings.
Twist words as you may I think my point stands.
To this day if I could go back and change anything about my leadership in TEO the only things I'd really change is the quality of members I accepted and handing over the reigns to Lifedragn. Also I'd be a bit more clear about the fact TEO's primary purpose was to protect others and not ourselves. I think the main thing that really sunk me was accepting too many Carebears into a group that was intended to be militant and then caring too much about keeping members happy who really never should have been in TEO to begin with. TEO would have been considerably stronger as a far smaller group with less people such as Cheatle that never cared about it's true intent but joined because we won the landrush.
We might not have gotten first settlement pick but I'd have a more manageable group size and more valuable members.
My decision to not foster relations with Pax was always extremely solid.
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Also I'd be a bit more clear about the fact TEO's primary purpose was to protect others and not ourselves.
Nurturing and protective were always qualities that I thought shown through quite well from your personality here on the forums.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The mere fact you need a deal with Pax to not have them slaughter your members prooves my point. It's a legitimate strategy but not the kind of allies I wanted for the group I had built.
With the matter of KoTC aside, there has been pvp between multiple parties. I don't understand why you would think anyone would abide by total non aggression between parties with a strained history, where there is no offer of benefit, and no reasonable expectation of reciprocation.
People planned to attack the empire when you were a leader, there was no indication that the stance was ready to change after the supposed fall. To assume a stance of pure non aggression in such a circumstance would be suicide.
What we did instead is agree to the NAP provided. What is being done by empire settlements now is abiding by the contract we did sign and offer reparations if there is a violation.
Sure, the empire might not be this nebulous idea of social justice. That said we abide by the contracts we do sign.
Again, offer no proofs. Claim victory. Rinse. Repeat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Dox
Not sure if that's sarcasm or not but I actually do spend a considerable amount of time in most games protecting and mentoring newbs. I'm a pretty nice guy until you give me a reason not to be. Then I'm a total a~*$&!*.
I think what my former allies who once loved and respected me fail to see is the way I treat them now is the exact way I treated UNC and Pax. Infact there was one point I blew up at Areks on Teamspeak so epicly even I privately felt I had been out of line and Nihimon kicked him from the TSV Teamspeak.
If I'm a troll now (which I won't deny) what does that make me back then?
If I'm a troll now (which I won't deny) what does that make me back then?
I'm not sure really.
But for "right now", the stark differences in personalities that you describe makes it seem to me that you have some issues you need to work out.