A lot of thought was put in here, my head hurt like hell and I pretty much had D&D-insomnia this night. :D
That's how I felt doing the Constructor. Oi!!
The italicized part isn't a power of the archetype... inquisitors get a domain or an inquisition, and I'm not replacing that in my proposal. Unless I'm missing something, I don't think it's too powerful to leave the temple assassin with 1 domain/inquisition...?
I know it's an iquisitor feature, and I wasn't saying it wa too powerful. What it is is your comment in italicized made me think, why not allow him to change his domain each day, depending upon his mission or what he plans on doing that day? Making him versatile. Maybe rename it versatile domain? I was wondering if having this "versatile domain" ability would be too powerful? One day he uses the "sun" domain. The next day he uses the "Protection" domain, etc., but still must select from his deity's list. What do you think? The temple assassin IS supposed to be versatile and mission specific.
Hm, I dunno, that's interesting and I don't think overpowered. When I said "mission" I meant more like, the overarching mission of the character (i.e. to serve as an assassin for Faith X). Versatile domain sounds nice, but I'd be loathe to trade anything for it... should we just give it for free?
Hm, I dunno, that's interesting and I don't think overpowered. When I said "mission" I meant more like, the overarching mission of the character (i.e. to serve as an assassin for Faith X). Versatile domain sounds nice, but I'd be loathe to trade anything for it... should we just give it for free?
Yes. No real need to trade. All he is gaining is versatility to select any of his deity's domain on a given day, but still restricted to those of his deity. I think that would really fit flavor-wise for the archetype.
Okay, sounds good to me. =)
Hey Maxx/Purplefixer, if one of you could please post a version of the Puppeteer with all the fixes you are making. That would be awesome. I started to make all the fixes, but its taking a long time jumoing beteen the posts to do it. That would be Great!!!
Flak, add in the Versatile Domain featue, and I think the Temple Assassin is done.
Alright, I'll post a more polished version with better/more complete text and so on in the coming day(s). Assuming no rush still?
@Elghinn: Make Maxx do it! I seem to lack the ability to make my own PDFs. >.< Hopefully one of my birthday presents will rectify this issue. I'm wanting a copy of Publisher.
@Maxx: We're having a little bit of a breakdown, Maxx. Let me try to write this more plainly.
As Written:
1: The puppet has either 10 or 20 HP. It is a non-magical inanimate object. Objects can be broken, but apparently in Pathfinder, by the written rules, if you burn them to a pile of ash, they only have the 'broken' condition. There isn't anything below broken. Since the puppet is non-magical, a mending spell from even a first level adept (npc class) can repair it all the way to full after a few minutes. (Mending-mending-mending-mending-mending-*gasp*-mending-mending-mending...! ) This allows a Puppeteer to repair his puppet magically after it receives the broken condition when the Marionette is destroyed (0hp). The puppet has hardness.
2: The Marionette has 1/2 the characters hit points. If the Marionette is destroyed (0hp) it returns to it's 'puppet' inanimate state, and has the broken condition. Marionette HP does not equal puppet HP. The puppet HP is put there for when, say, the barbarian threatens to tear the puppets arms off if the Puppeteer continues to put pepper in his soup. Marionette DR supersedes the hardness of the puppet. The puppet is made of wood, the Marionette is something more 'supernatural'-ish. It starts off vulnerable, and becomes steadily more difficult to destroy than mere wood. So "all the properties and abilities of a familiar of a wizard with level equal to the Puppeteer's class level except for intelligence" would cover the HP of a familiar too, correct?
Marionettes having an intelligence score means someone can dominate the puppet and make it kill the party cleric. "Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!" "Hah hah hah! Mine is an evil laugh!" Having a wooden dummy know things the puppeteer doesn't is... disturbing. @.@
Without having its own skill ranks, you should go one of two ways: Fragment of the Puppeteers own soul, or Subconscious Animation. Otherwise, like your Eidolon, he should have his own creepy knowledge skills. My 'demon binder' summoner actually learned her spells FROM her Eidolon! He had spellcraft and know:arcana and know:planes!
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@Elghinn: Make Maxx do it! I seem to lack the ability to make my own PDFs. >.< Hopefully one of my birthday presents will rectify this issue. I'm wanting a copy of Publisher.
@Maxx: We're having a little bit of a breakdown, Maxx. Let me try to write this more plainly.
I'm working on it, and probably posting it at the end of this message (finally not, it's 3 AM here and wouldn't get the computer flying away to the other side of the room, so it's only a little teasing until tomorrow :D).
Beyond a lot of corrections, I added the ability to control mindless creatures, an Ego to the marionette, and a fun feature on Soul Sucking which says that if the body in which the marionette's soul is is slain, the creature dies but the marionette immediately returns into it's body and tries to exert dominance during 24h onto the puppeteer with a +4 bonus to ego (just sayin, at this level this means the puppet has a minimum ego of 24, which is the same value than a 19-20 Blackblade which is already considered as having a big ego). You don't f~#+ with your marionette... o-o
1. I removed the mending mention. Only healing through normal ways, or by animating which gives 1 HP like you wrote.
2. I didn't make any difference between animated and non-animated HP : a marionette has maximum 20 HP while inanimate, and a maximum of half the puppeteer's HP when animated, not counting any construct improvement or Soul Sucking. Animating the puppet gives it back the HP it had last time, but if inanimate, it has the HP it had before being animated. (I guess there is actually the difference you are talking about, written like this ! Silly me.)
They have an intelligence score but no skills and are immune to mind-affecting effects. They are just really, really creepy living puppets whose mind you can't really read or understand... *shivers*
But feel free to comment and suggest changes when I post it, this is still a beta version and even if I'm attached to the Intelligent value for the marionette, it can be adapted. :)
Alright, I'll post a more polished version with better/more complete text and so on in the coming day(s). Assuming no rush still?
No rush. We all have things to do. That goes for you too Maxx. Don't let all this interupt your lives, it is, after all, just a game. :D (...ducks to avoid thrown objects.)
Hm, I dunno, that's interesting and I don't think overpowered. When I said "mission" I meant more like, the overarching mission of the character (i.e. to serve as an assassin for Faith X). Versatile domain sounds nice, but I'd be loathe to trade anything for it... should we just give it for free?Yes. No real need to trade. All he is gaining is versatility to select any of his deity's domain on a given day, but still restricted to those of his deity. I think that would really fit flavor-wise for the archetype.
What about making it similar to a Paladin Oath? The Assassin can mantain his domain as long as his present mission requires, then change it when the mission's accomplished and a new one is undertaken.
My only real concern with marrionettes is that they have roughly 1 attack worth of hit points. They're speedbumps. They don't pass 20hp till level 6 or so. That's only just past non-critical greataxe orc territory (CR 1/2). -Too- fragile. Is the puppeteer meant to spend spells every single action of every fight to keep it mobile? At level 6 3 mooks (CR 1/2-2) are going to kill it on their first action of every fight. DR 3/Magic is nice and all, but it doesn't begin to stand up to the sheer piles of damage even a single direwolf can do. At level 1 they have 4hp and DR 1. If you 'destroy' the marrionette, a medium puppet has 16hp left?
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Okay, pdf made. I skipped the 2.0 version to go to the 3.0.
Notable changes :
- Marionette's traits explained in a clearer format, taken from the modified Construct Traits list, including : D10 HDs instead of having half the puppeteer's HP ; Charisma instead of dex and strength, but only for the purpose of AC and attack bonus ; skill points for the marionette ; ego value added to the marionette.
- Shield proficiency given to the puppeteer, but wielding any weapon or shield gives a -4 malus to the marionette's attacks - this is intended so that the marionette begins play with proficiency with simple weapons, shields (except tower) and light armors.
- "Living puppet" available as a lesser power at 5th level, works the same way but only on humanoids.
- Original "living puppet" still available at 10th level, against any creature you can fascinate.
- Living puppet gains a greater version at 15th level, usable against mindless ennemies as a melee touch attack with a charisma check to take control of the mindless creature during the duration of your performance. Do you really want to control the ooze ? Well, go touch it !
- Capstone ability clearer and less powerful, the puppeteer don't have access to the creature's thoughts.
Issues I ran into :
- Soul sucking still too much unclear and a pain to apply quickly in a game for my tastes. Also, not cool enough.
- Global form of the class, different from a classic multiclass variant.
- Balance, because of the added powers. Low levels abilities added because it isn't fun to wait until 10th level to begin really controlling ennemies.
Things I should detail :
- A marionette exerting dominance into it's master can put the puppeteer's soul into the marionette during this time for petty vengeance and roleplaying creepy fun.
So, here it is : The Puppeteer 3.
Also, if you have a more "construct feeling" variant to give, with a mindless (or less intelligent and more creepy) marionette like originally wanted to see Purplefixer, get on with it ! It will require different mechanics, as Ego is a balancing factor of Soul Sucking for example, but nothing is impossible.
Puppeteer 3 Editing:
I still like this class. :D Just adjustments for grammar and spelling and a few game terms. Like shields causing arcane spell failure. Shields are for marionettes!
The puppeteer is the consummate master of control. His strange puppet-play not withstanding, the puppeteer pulls on the strings of every living creature to control and coerce, masterfully directing events toward his own desired outcomes. Using creatures as simple toys to pit against their comrades or stunning the crowd isn't merely an easy task for the puppeteer, it is also an enjoyable one. Because of the potential abuses of such abilities, and the mind-set that leads one down the path of utter control, almost all puppeteers are of neutral or evil alignment. Even those who try to follow the path of the righteous often find that the easier it becomes the exert full dominance over others free will, the harder it becomes to resist making all those lovely puppets dance.
Role: Puppeteers spend much of their time playing with their
thralls. While their power comes from within, they rely heavily on their marionette companions in dangerous situations, but don't hesitate to use powerful enemies as new puppets if possible. True controllers of the battlefield, they can hold their own in combat thanks to their marionette, or subvert the will of an opponent to turn the enemy against each other.
Puppeteers are proficient with all simple weapons. Puppeteers are also proficient with light armor and light shields. A puppeteer can cast puppeteer spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like any other arcane spellcaster, a puppeteer wearing medium or heavy armor, or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. A multiclass puppeteer still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.
A puppeteer learns a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table: Summoner Spells Known under “Spells Known.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they may be cast any number of times per day. Cantrips prepared using other spell slots, due to metamagic feats, for example, consume spell slots as normal.
My only issue with the marionette is giving it Fighter BAB and Hit Dice. That makes it basically a fighter! Two full characters for one character is too much. We have to moderate somehow. Instead of dice at all, use flat numbers? Say 15 at first level, and +6 for each additional character level (not class level)? That makes the marionette seem more 'artificial' and still gives the marionette the ability to use things like the Toughness feat. Keep him using the puppeteer's BAB! Also, if the marionette has an ego, it must also have an alignment. Neutral Evil is the classic 'selfish and lazy' alignment, so you may make all marionettes neutral evil? If you want them to be fractious and contentious and have their own goals outside of those of the puppeteer you should probably go with that so those things don't need to be spelled out. Make them greedy little sods.
Also, dismissing a spell is a standard action. Should dismissing the marionette be faster for some reason?
A puppeteer begins play with a strange marionette fashioned of ordinary wood. The marionette's physical appearance is that of a small or medium-sized humanoid. While inanimate, the marionette has 20 hit points (10 hit points if small), hardness of 5, floats on water, and
uses all the rules of a standard inanimate object, including those for saving throws of attended and unattended objects.
The puppeteer can animate his marionette in a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform. This ritual cannot be performed on a marionette with the broken condition. The animated marionette retains its immunity to mind-affecting abilities, but if the puppeteer is unconscious, sleeping, or slain, it immediately collapses. The puppet takes commands empathically from the puppeteer, requiring no standard action to take standard actions of it's own, but requiring the puppeteer to take a move action to move the marionette on his turn. A puppeteer carrying a shield or a weapon is unable to properly control its marionette, and gives it a -4 penalty to attack. The marionette always goes on the same initiative as its puppeteer, and counts as an eidolon for the purposes of spells such as rejuvenate eidolon.
Marionettes gain the following special abilities when animated:
*Familiar Traits: The marionette has all the traits and abilities of the familiar of a wizard with a level equal to the puppeteer's class level, with a few exceptions.
• DR/magic equal to half the puppeteer's level. This DR supersedes the marionette's hardness value.
• Has a slam attack dealing 1d3 (small) or 1d4 (medium) damage, but can also wear and wield any magic items, weapons, shields, items, and armors using the same proficiencies of the puppeteer. With the exception of armor and weapons, puppeteers and marionettes must share item slots due to conflicting magical energies. If the marionette wears a magical ring, the puppeteer may only wear one magical ring without conflict.
• Uses the Puppeteer's saving throws.
• Skill points equal to 2 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The marionette cannot use the puppeteer's skill ranks as a familiar can.
• No Constitution score. Any DCs or other statistics that rely on a Constitution score treat a marionette as having a score of 10 (no bonus or penalty).
• Uses at all times the puppeteer's ability scores in place of it's own, but substitutes the puppeteer's charisma for strength, and for dexterity for the purpose of AC.
• Has an intelligence of it's own like a familiar and speaks all the languages its puppeteer knows. However, the marionette can never take actions to move or stand itself. Only at the tug of the puppeteer's strings can the marionette move and attack.
• Base land speed equal to the puppeteer's.
• The same visual abilities of the puppeteer. If the puppeteer has low-light vision, so does the marionette. If the puppeteer has dark-vision or light-sensitivity so does the marionette.
• Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).
• Immunity to disease, death effects, necromancy effects, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
• Not subject to ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, energy drain, or nonlethal damage.
• Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless).
• Not at risk of death from massive damage. Immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points or less.
• Shares the puppeteer's feats.
• As constructs, marionettes do not breathe, eat, drink or sleep.
* Ego : A marionette has an ego equal to the puppeteer's level +4, and that ego increases as the puppeteer becomes more powerful. In cases where a puppeteer and it's marionette come into conflict, like any intelligent item, a marionette can attempt to exert its dominance (see Intelligent Items). Due to its flexible and powerful nature, a marionette has a nonstandard ego progression.
* Familiar Bonus : An awaken marionette grants a +3 bonus to Perform.
* At 7th level, when the familiar would normally gain 'Speak with animals of its kind', the Marionette grants Improved Share Spells instead.
* At 9th level the marionette can add slashing, cold iron, or silver to it's damage reduction.
* At 15th level add any one additional material or damage type to the marionette's damage reduction that results in a legal DR/type, except piercing. (For example, the Marionette can have DR/slashing and adamantine and magic, DR/bludgeoning and cold iron and
magic, or DR/slashing and silver and magic, but never DR/slashing and bludgeoning, or DR/cold iron and silver.)
If the marionette is destroyed, it collapses to the ground with 0 hit points and the broken condition. When animated, the Marionette's hit points are unchanged from the last time it was animated. The only exception to this is if the Marionette was destroyed, in which case it returns with 1 hit point. The Marionette does not heal naturally, but applications of curing magic and channeled positive energy can restore its hit points as normal. The Marionette cannot be rendered inanimate through dispel magic, but disjunction or an anti-magic field immediately renders it inanimate as usual and it must be animated again. Rendering a marionette inanimate is a free action for the puppeteer that could make the marionette attempt to exert dominance on its master.
Nearly invisible and virtually indestructible strings of force connect the marionette and the puppeteer. These strings are mostly intangible, but can be severed by a wall of force or similar effect. Once the duration of such a field lapses, the Puppeteer can restore the strings as a swift action. See invisible and similar effects allow the strings to be traced back to the puppeteer, but they otherwise cause a visible disturbance only at where they connect to either puppeteer or
marionette. These strings of control have a maximum distance of 100 feet unless the unfetter spell or a similar effect is used.
Finally, a Marionette can be enhanced like a construct with the Craft Construct feat.
Do the marionette uses of bardic performance prevent the marionette from attacking? It certainly sounds so! That's an excellent balance trade-off. Make sure to put fascinate, demoralize, living puppet, and soul-absorbing gaze in italics beneath the bardic performance heading! Just like the bard, they aren't listed separately.
The language on this power is great. However, the concentration check is both trivial and cumbersome. I suggest you EITHER remove the will saves and make it a concentration check (10+strength mod+HD), (10+will save), (10+wis mod+hd); or remove the concentration check entirely and leave just the will saves as written.
Living Puppet, Greater: Awe... some... :D It's enchantment for oozes, constructs, and mindless undead! You may want to make it provoke an attack of opportunity? Not sure. EXTREMELY powerful against an adamantine golem! May also want to make it check against spell resistance. Or make it a ranged touch attack with a range of only 10'?
I'm just thinking ahead to the power of a puppet bone-storm.
At 16th level, as a full-round action, a puppeteer can use his performance to make his wooden marionette look into the deepest thoughts of a fascinated creature and absorb it's soul. Using this
ability breaks the fascinate performance. The creature receives a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the puppeteer’s level + the puppeteer’s Cha modifier) to negate the effect. If a creature’s saving throw succeeds, the puppeteer cannot attempt to absorb the soul of that creature again for 24 hours.
By consuming a soul, the marionette's body changes into a grotesque, deformed appearance of the creature whose soul was absorbed. The marionette's body then uses the creature's base speed, Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution modifiers instead of the puppeteer's base ones as long as the puppeteer maintains the performance. Any magic item on the marionette works if the creature could use them. This means that a marionette absorbing a bear's soul could only use its armor if the armor had the Wild enhancement, otherwise any equipment melds into the marionette and becomes unusable at this time.
The creature whose soul was absorbed remains conscious inside the marionette but is unable to act or speak in any way that isn't allowed by the puppeteer. The creature's original body becomes occupied by the marionette's soul. The marionette keeps its normal Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities. The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and special qualities. A body with extra limbs does not allow the marionette to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. The marionette can't choose to activate the body's extraordinary or supernatural abilities. The creature's spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body. The marionette's soul then becomes confused, as per the spell Confusion. Its normal tactic is to then take the full defense action if adjacent to nothing, or defend itself violently against any adjacent, obvious threat. Otherwise, it will cry, talk, and act childishly without menacing anyone or anything.
Should the marionette with the creature's soul be reduced to 0 HP, the creature would return into it's body and be stunned for one round. Should the creature's body be killed, the marionette's soul would return to it's body and try to exert dominance over the puppeteer with a +4 circumstance bonus to ego, and the creature would be slain. If the marionette achieves dominance in this case, it will immediately attempt to force the puppeteer to ((set up and use this ability on more creatures until successful, even his own allies if they seem more likely targets???)).
This is a mind-affecting ability.
Assuming control needs to be rewritten, I think. Why would Mind Blank give a +4 sacred bonus to resist? Subtility = subtlety.
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Puppeteer 3 Editing:
I still like this class. :D Just adjustments for grammar and spelling and a few game terms. Like shields causing arcane spell failure. Shields are for marionettes!** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
I hate my triple-clicking mouse so much when it closes three programs at once, including Firefox, without asking if I really want to quit a lot of tabs (including a huge forum response) at once. >>_<<
Well.
First, thanks for the review ! :D
- Armor and weapons proficiency : Puppeteers -are- intended to be able to cast with light armor and a shield without incuring spell penalties, the same way than a bard can. The balancing factor comes from the fact that the puppeteer wielding a weapon or a shield gives to the marionette a -4 malus to attack because of reduced arm movements (gauntlets and other free-hand weapons are allowed, though). Plus, the Shield Ally ability soon pretty much makes wielding a shield moot for the puppeteer since the shield bonuses don't stack.
Obviously, the proficiency is given first so that the marionette can use one at level 1, and I think it doesn't hurt to let the puppeteer also use a shield if he believes it is worth of it's money and corresponding maluses. I'll ask for other opinions on this one, as I am ok with the idea of a puppeteer not using any shield, but also don't see any reason to negate them the use, especially for a bard variant. :)
Should the weapon proficiency also include the bard weapons, btw ? Not like they are overpowered after all.
- Intro : I'll correct it, noted.
- Cantrips : I'll correct it.
- Marionette BAB and hit dice : your suggestion (15 at level 1 + 6 each level) is actually more powerful than a d10, full BAB progression, since it is more than the normal medium HP available to the marionette. I guess i should reduce it to d8 hit dice, but remember that this d10 isn't accompanied by a high constitution and predilection class bonus. A 15 Con fighter with Toughness would have 16 HP at first level, the marionette would have 13. At 4th level, the now-16 Con fighter would have 3d10+10(1st)+4(Tough)+4(Pred)+12(Con) = an average of 46 HP. The marionette at level 4 has an average of 3d10+10+4(Tough) = 30 HP. (I'm envisaging the possibility to give the bonus HP from puppeteer level to the marionette as a variant predilection bonus.)
This said, and if it stays like it is in sight of this demonstration, I believe the marionette should also keep the full bonus, as to seem strangely more active in melee than the puppeteer.
Concerning alignement, I'm for letting the player decide. I'll give later a RP example and build of NG puppeteer with CE marionette, and one of NE puppeteer with a LG marionette.
More comments on this later, it's 3 AM again here and I'm not really supposed to stay this late. Plus, I think my pills are finally taking effect.
So, beware, <WIP> sign.
I guess my confusion here was imagining a level 4 puppeteer with a 4hd marionette! There was no table or anything to suggest otherwise, or reference otherwise, so the assumption was the marionette would have full BAB (level 4 = 4 BAB) and full D10 hit dice (level 4 = 4d10).
Just remember the balance concerns of allowing the puppet with full BAB to make touch attacks with deliver touch spells! You don't want to make this class superior to the Magus with twice the HP.
Maybe 20hp + 4 per level is more in line with what you're thinking? I'm in a rush to get the puppet to 40hp, where it's safe from a single basic attack in a round, and by level 6 it needs to realistically be able to resist three attacks from a non optimized creature (~15 damage per hit) or it will be so pointlessly fragile in melee combat as to be unuseable. I will spec and play three different puppeteers in home combat and see how they fare against a -3, -1, and +1 cr creature to playtest game speed and the marionette once we have a final draft.
Looks totally fun!
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I guess my confusion here was imagining a level 4 puppeteer with a 4hd marionette! There was no table or anything to suggest otherwise, or reference otherwise, so the assumption was the marionette would have full BAB (level 4 = 4 BAB) and full D10 hit dice (level 4 = 4d10).
You must have forgotten the marionette HAS 4 HD at level 4, in my previous example ! Though, the fighter still gets exactly 50% more HP.
By allowing the puppeteer to transfer his bonus HP to the puppet as a predilection class bonus, the fighter (built to last, at least) has 46 and the puppet 34 in average at level 6, it is still a full level less worth oh HPs. With a more fragile fighter, with 14 Con, we get a 42 HP fighter and a 34 HP marionette in average. It must wait until level 5 to attain the 40 hp. But it also has DR, increased natural armor and immunity to a lot of annoying effects. And don't forget that even if the puppet is a bit hard to kill, there always is the squishy puppeteer not far away, especially since if the guy decides he wants to move AND direct the puppet to someone in melee, it takes two move actions he's not using for spells. The marionette has to be hard and dangerous enough to be a threat, but not as resistant as to make the puppeteer a better target in most situations.Just remember the balance concerns of allowing the puppet with full BAB to make touch attacks with deliver touch spells! You don't want to make this class superior to the Magus with twice the HP.
A problem indeed. :/ I guess I'll rule the marionette can only do this into a definite range around the puppeteer. But don't forget this strategy implies to use two sets of actions just to make one touch attack, while you could use an enchantment, move the puppet and make the marionette full-attack in the same round - probably may more efficient.
I'll see to keep the "20hp + 4 per level" and how it would evolve. Keep in mind the 20 HP for medium constructs is only bonus points in addition to base HP... And I'll continue my previous post later, time is again against me ! :(
Personally, I think you should use the eidolon HD progression for the marionette (15d10 at 20th) then +20 hp (+10 for Small). At 1st level, the marionette would have 1d10 + 20 for HP, or 15d10+20 at 20th. The 20 wouldn't increase, but HD would. The marionette is supposed to be a construct to according to the rules, despite the possibility of having 30 hp at 1st level (and yes it's more than any PC). This alone will keep the marionette alive at low levels and scale well like an eidolon with a Con bonus. Use the BAB of the eidolon too. I'm trying to work out the stats for the marionette based on Max's specs, with a chart and description like they have for the eidolon. I'll get back to you when I can.
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Oh my, I freakin' HATE when my arm-long posts get eaten by a key mistake. It's the third time I'm writting this, and will probably kill someone in the streets with my mind just to release the pressure. Or I'll drink a glass of water, who knows.
*Comes back with a bit of blood in the nose and a glass of water, finally didn't kill anyone because he isn't a monster, but hit it's face on the door. Sad day.*
Well, time to answer, discuss and write again for the third time.
Beware, long post.
- Marionette : will change it.
- Dismissing as a free action : I thought the summoner could do it. Will change it to standard.
- Suggested changes : Ouch, some issues right here with your suggestions. Here is why :
--"puppeteers and marionettes must share item slots due to conflicting magical energies. If the marionette wears a magical ring, the puppeteer may only wear one magical ring without conflict."
-> I like it, it makes sense. I vote for keeping this.
--"The marionette cannot use the puppeteer's skill ranks as a familiar can."
-> Ouch ! Big nerf right now. I see a marionette using an acrobatics check as the puppeteer doing an awesome hand motion to move it's puppet, and thus, I think the better way to deal with this is to allow the marionette to use the puppeteer's skills or it's own but only for Dex or Str based skill, whichever is better. This makes the marionette unable to fully use magic items and cast thrice a round like any good munchkin would try to do with quicken + spell + wand in the marionette's hands, and also makes more sense. A marionette could also get special knowledge of it's own.
--"substitutes the puppeteer's charisma for strength, and for dexterity for the purpose of AC."
-> A bit too much of a boost. Using charisma to full strength means a marionette wielding a greatsword from a 20 Cha puppeteer at level 6 would have a base +13 damage wih power attack. Also, Soul Sucking would become far less interesting if it pretty much only gave a Con bonus to the puppet's body, considering the strastospheric charisma from the puppeteer at these levels. With this ability in effect, a 16th lvl marionette could have 24 Str/24 Dex (for AC and reflex saves only)/-/13/16/24. Could make sense with something else than full BAB though.
--"However, the marionette can never take actions to move or stand itself. Only at the tug of the puppeteer's strings can the marionette move and attack."
-> Lacks the flavor bit about the uncontrolled moves of the puppeteer to give motion to the marionette ! CREEPY, I say ! :D
--"The same visual abilities of the puppeteer. If the puppeteer has low-light vision, so does the marionette. If the puppeteer has dark-vision or light-sensitivity so does the marionette."
-> A bit sad to lose the darkvision, but makes sense. Vote to keep it.
--"Shares the puppeteer's feats."
Lacks the mention about taking it's own BAB when using the puppeteer's feats.
--"As constructs, marionettes do not breathe, eat, drink or sleep."
-> Note that I added "drink" to the things the marionette can't do, so that no intelligent guy comes with the idea to use a Cure potion, because come on guy positive energy totally heals it !
- Marionette and bardic performance : No, the marionette can attack during a bardic performance, as long as it is able to. Just remember that most of the abilities need someone to be fascinated, an effect which is broken as soon as the puppet looks agressive. Also, when using a living puppet as your new marionette, the real one is dazed, so effectively, it pretty much can't attack during a bardic performance since it is either a terrible idea or impossible. Will correct the editing of these abilities though.
- Living puppet, lesser : Removing this "cumbersome" check is a difficult and dangerous thing to do, as it helps balancing a 5th level spell effect given at 5th character level. The concentration check with (10 + HD + Wis modifier) is the most interesting though, as it is at the same time easier to hit high Will-medium Wis saves (like wizards) and harder to hit high HD monsters (like trolls). With keeping the Will save when ordered to act against it's nature, it could be quicker to use in fight, more balanced against foes and more in touch with the flavor since a strong willed creature could only resist more efficiently in a dramatic fashion when refusing to obey an order. At level 6, a 7th level humanoid with 12 Wis would represent a DC 18 each round to control, and the puppeteer would have 6+5 = +11 to keep the control without any feat applied. (I assume 20 Cha at level 6 is good optimization, and Level 5 feat taken for Craft Construct).
- Living puppet, greater : Glad you like it ! :D
I thought about the attack of opportunity and the ranged effect, but having to come in melee with a high-level mindless creature and touch it is the big persuasive reason to not use this at every occasion. Especially damn oozes. Allowing spell-resistance is a good idea, but also a big nerf. After all, the wires are a force effect that could even work with a ghost. Maybe giving a malus to the charisma check when dealing with SR or immunity to magic ? Don't forget that most of these creatures like Adamantium golem have a colossal amount of HD, having to beat 30 with a charisma check isn't going to be easy at all without having to help them beforehand. Ranged touch attack is interesting, but the possiblity to avoid attacks of opportunity will need a comparative malus for which I didn't thought yet.
- Soul absorbing gaze : If an item exerts dominance onto it's wielder, the player becomes by RAW a NPC under DM's control for the dominance duration. I think the sentence about the puppet trying to give problems to the puppeteer's allies isn't needed, as it depends purely on roleplay and circumstance : maybe the puppet is a good soul with a neutral, careless puppeteer and his allies often take defense for the marionette without even really knowing it has a mind of it's own, thus the marionette would reward their kindness by giving away the puppeteer's wealth to them and to a local orphanage (sometime making the puppeteer in the marionette's soul forcefully smile and say he's glad to see this, while it is actually mourning it's gold and promising revenge the rest of the time 8D) !
I will have to change this to allow for example to gain natural attacks from an animal, to absorb a ghost and gain it's touch ability, or an hydra's breath, a lion's rake...
- Assuming control : Mind blank usually gives a +8 bonus to saves against enchantment. Immunity from divine origin would there give a sacred bonus ; and resistance from arcane origins, a profane bonus. Will make it clearer.
Elghinn :
- Eidolon + construct bonus size HPs is a lot of HP for a low level character. More than having way too much HP, it's the fact the marionette isn't worth attacking that becomes problematic, like having a tank with a huge dangerous barrel and armor, moved around with plastic wheels.
- Eidolon BAB actually makes more sense and allows for a better retro-compatibility feeling, but remember this BAB is accompanied by a metric shit-ton of attacks and special qualities you can buy on an eidolon : here, you find yourself with a 2/3 BAB creature sharing your feats and with no special power of it's own like a magus or inquisitor.
Since there are a lot of good ideas but that most aren't good enough for balance if you put them together or separately, here are the major points we are talking about, so we can find the final, more efficient and balanced combination :
-- D10 ? Fix value/level ? Based on the puppeteer's ? Can Toughness be applied to the marionette too ?
-- Adding bonus HP from construct trait ? Using them as level 1 HPs ?
Offense :
-- Full BAB ? Lower BAB despite a lack of abilities from similar class features, and limited movement ?
-- Charisma to attack bonus ? Charisma to strength ? Charisma to Dex for AC and reflex ?
- Skill ranks :
-- Own ranks ? Uses the puppeteer's ? Own ranks, but uses the puppeteer's for Str and Dex based skills ?
- Abilities :
-- Lesser + living puppet : reducing the number of checks ? Nature of checks ?
-- Greater Living Puppet : applying SR ? What trades-off for a ranged touch attack ?
To come :
- New traits shared between the puppeteer and it's marionette.
It's important to note again that right now, the puppeteer is a bit like what an antipaladin/thug would be to a Paladin/Rogue. It is kind of a sub-class multiclassing variant, mixing pretty much two archetypes to apply mechanic-wise a concept that was impossible before by the rules without casting spells like any other class. The closer would have been a bipedic eidolon with a summoner using enchantment spells.
Thus, and if you have no idea how to make it stick beyond the other multiclassing variants (but Toy Maker could do, making the puppeteer a Toy Maker variant), it will probably need it's own section.
I will look at all the previous issues and propose a new, argued combination before doing any test. Here is a first short roleplaying concept without a full build :
- Tom Woods, Level 1 Puppeteer (NE), and his marionette, Mark (LG).
Traits : Heirloom Weapon.
Feeling unloved by his older brother, Mark grew up playing his own games, loving to hear these stories about dragons, dungeons and knights fighting huge monsters that his brother could be hearing making up from under the door ; and he trained himself to wield their father's old sword to someday become a great, shiny knight that could impress his older brother.
Some years later, on a sunny day, Tom and Mark's mother noticed that her sons were playing alone, again, like every day before this ; and decided this should stop. She sent Tom and his seven-year-old boy to play together in the village, with the task to come back with a smile and the commissions. Eager to show to Tom the moves he developed and that were able to sink the old sword in a tree, Mark hid the blade in his backpack and took pleasure to finally be able to talk and play with his older brother. Tom, though, didn't see it like a gift.
Walking near the river, Tom decided to take a break under the shadow of the trees, and took a book to read. Mark however tried to show his skills to get his brother's attention, but this one, annoyed, didn't pay any attention. By ignoring what happened next to him, he also didn't saw the armor parts and sword Mark was wielding, until the younger brother tripped and felt into the water. First amused and annoyed by this childly behaviour, Tom looked up to the water and prepared himself to say something mean ; but his thoughts quickly became overcame by an honest fear for his brother when this one didn't get back out of the water. Hurrying to see what was happening, he plunged and saw his brother on the muddy soil, trying to remove the heavy metal parts strapped on it's body and the sword pressing on it's legs, stuck under rocks. In despair, Tom tried to help Mark remove the "armor", but it became clear that the best solution was to lift him out of the water by strength alone.
Woe, Tom's plays and learnings didn't give him an athletic constitution. When he finally was able to get Mark out of the water, it was already too late : the young boy had drowned.
Overcame by fear and sadness, Tom called for help. And even if his parents initially blamed him for his brother's death, they finally came to love him like their first miracle and last son ; something than the village, knowing the dislike of Tom for his brother, never totally did against the "monster child".
Tom grew up to acclimate with the looks the villagers sent to it, by ignoring them the best he could or by blackmailing anyone who tried to make a hell of his life. He quickly became a well-know puppeteer, cheering the souls of childrens at day and haunting their nightmares at night, by the rumors from parents about him having killed his brother. But his best creation thus far wasn't known of anyone, even his own parents - it was a puppet with an old sword and a strange little armor to which he could give life, and which always seemed to try to cheer him up when they discussed about random everyday thoughts. In his room, Tom was sometimes heard to say he "was sorry from having been unable to act this day". This strange marionette was named Mark.
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Well, here is a suggestion for the marionette, I had another set but forgot it on the way. I myself keep thinking some of these aren't totally right, so keep commenting ! Plus, it's 3:00 AM again, so sleep time. (Not kidding, sort of routine these days.) :
- HPs :
-- D10 Hit dices, like a Construct and to keep the "little fighter" feeling.
Uncommon progression using a modified eidolon table, with 0 hit dice at level 1, but 10 or 20 HP depending on starting size. Basically, instead of 1/2/3/3/4 progression for hit dices, the marionette would have 0/1/2/3/4.
-- Toughness NOT appliable to the marionette, to my mind it is a feature for creatures with a constitution, and any HP issue can be resolved with life link.
Offense :
-- Full BAB, based on HD. Lack of abilities from special class features, limited movement, limited offense and versatility compared to an eidolon make this balanced. This is a +0 BAB at level 1 to compensate for the 10/20 HP start since a level 1 marionette has no HD ; and later it keeps getting a higher BAB than the puppeteer's.
-- Charisma to Dex for AC and reflex saves. Charisma to attack bonus. Damage, skills and checks still based on real strength and dexterity.
- Skill ranks :
-- The marionette gets it's own ranks, like a construct. It uses the puppeteer's ranks if they are better, but only for Str and Dex based skills.
- Abilities :
-- Lesser living puppet : initial Will save against the effect, and concentration check each round for the puppeteer (10 + HD + Wis modifier from target). Target gets a new will saving throw against any order clearly not in it's nature, otherwise continues to suffer the effect.
-- Greater Living Puppet : No SR applying. Most high level mindless creatures have huge HD. Make the charisma check easier, using instead a concentration check with a -10 malus (so, a easy +12 at level 15, +17 at level 19 against a DC 30 for an adamantium golem). Can be used with a 15' range touch attack provoking attacks of opportunity and using a total -12 malus to concentration instead of the normal -10.
I've been looking at a few aspects of the Puppeteer and have the following suggestions/reworks. I think I have them how you wanted things to work, Maxx.
I made the following additions/swaps from elsewhere in the class features to the Spells entry.
A puppeteer casts arcane spells drawn from the summoner spell list. However, as a master of magic used to manipulated and control the minds others, he also adds all spells from the Enchantment school found on the bard’s and sorcerer/wizard’s spell list. Any enchantment spell present in the bard’s spell list is added to the puppeteer’s at the prescribed spell level. Should an enchantment spell be found in both spell lists, the bard’s prescribed spell level supersedes that found on the sorcerer/wizard list. If an enchantment spell is only found on the sorcerer/wizard spell list, the spell is added to the puppeteer’s list at the appropriate spell levels as follows: 1st–level and 2nd–level sorcerer/wizard enchantments spells are added to the puppeteer’s 1st level spell list; 3rd–level spells are added to the 2nd, 4th–level and 5th–level spells are added to the 3rd, 6th–level spells are added to the 4th, 7th–level and 8th–level spells are added to the 5th, and 9th–level spells are added to the 6th.
The puppeteer can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level. To learn or cast a spell, a puppeteer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a puppeteer’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the puppeteer’s Charisma modifier. A puppeteer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level each day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Puppeteer. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score (see Table: Ability Modifiers).
A puppeteer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A puppeteer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of the puppeteer’s choice. At each new puppeteer level, he gains one or more new spells as indicated on Table: Summoner Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a puppeteer knows is not affected by his Charisma score.) Although a spontaneous spellcaster’s Seplls Known are typically fixed, the puppeteer gains one bonus spell known per spell level (see the Eminence Grise ability below).
Upon reaching 5th level, and at every three levels thereafter, a puppeteer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the puppeteer “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest level puppeteer spell he can cast. A puppeteer may swap out only a single spell at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
I also did some work with the Marionette entry, and the Specs section on the Marionette. Don't know it it works for you or not. I wanted to work in the whole marionette as a "sentient construct familiar". Thus you'll se a slight alteration to the whole "broken" and "destroyed" aspects of the marionette.
A puppeteer begins play with a strange marionette fashioned of ordinary wood. The marionette's physical appearance is that of a Small or Medium-sized humanoid, though the specifics are left up to the puppeteer. The marionette is considered a sentient construct that has an alignment, mental and physical ability scores (except Constitution score, see construct traits), languages, senses, and other special abilities which it gains as the puppeteer increases in level. Although a marionette gains special abilities over time, they can be improved like other constructs through the Craft Construct feat.
The puppeteer can animate his marionette in a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform. This ritual cannot be performed on a broken marionette. The marionette retains it's immunity to mind-affecting abilities, but if the puppeteer is unconscious, sleeping, or slain, it immediately collapses and becomes inanimate again. The marionette takes commands empathetically from the puppeteer, requiring no standard action to take standard actions of its own, but requiring the puppeteer to take a move action to move the marionette on his turn. A puppeteer carrying a shield or a weapon is unable to properly control its marionette, and receives a –4 penalty to attack rolls. The marionette always acts during the puppeteer’s turn in the initiative order, and counts as an eidolon for the purposes of spells such as rejuvenate eidolon.
If the marionette is reduced to 0 hit points or less, it collapses to the ground and gains the broken condition. When animated, the marionette's hit points are unchanged from the last time it was animated. The only exception to this is if the marionette was destroyed, in which case it returns with 1 hit point. The marionette does not heal naturally, but applications of curing magic and channeled positive energy can restore its hit points as normal. The marionette cannot be rendered inanimate through dispel magic, but mage’s disjunction or an antimagic field immediately renders it inanimate as usual and must be animated again. Rendering a marionette inanimate is a standard action, and may allow the marionette the opportunity to exert dominance on its master. If a marionette is lost or is destroyed (is reduced to a negative number of hit points equal to its base hit points according to size), it can be replaced 1 week later through a specialized ritual that costs 200 gp per puppeteer level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete.
Nearly invisible and virtually indestructible strings of force connect the marionette and the puppeteer. These strings are mostly intangible, but can be severed by a wall of force or similar effect. Once the duration of such a field lapses, the puppeteer can restore the strings as a swift action. See invisible and similar effects allow the strings to be traced back to the puppeteer, but they otherwise cause a visible disturbance only at the point where they connect to either the puppeteer or the marionette. These strings of control can extend to a maximum distance of 100 feet, unless the unfetter spell or a similar effect is used.
I moved the "gaining enchanment spells" part of Enimence Grise to "Spells" then streamlined the class feature. I hope I didn't miss anything.
Beginning at 1st level, the puppeteer can learn one extra spell from the enchantment school for each level of puppeteer spells he can cast, from 1st on up. This exceeds the normal number of spells in his list of spells known, as shown Table: Puppeteer Spells Known. These extra spells can be learned only in her eminence grise spell slot, and must be in his list of spells known to be able to cast it. The puppeteer cannot exceed his daily allotment of spells when casting spells gained through this ability.
And here is what the new Spells Known table would look like (without formatting of course!)
Table: Puppeteer Spells Known
Spells Known
Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1st 4 2+1 — — — — —
2nd 5 3+1 — — — — —
3rd 6 4+1 — — — — —
4th 6 4+1 2+1 — — — —
5th 6 4+1 3+1 — — — —
6th 6 4+1 4+1 — — — —
7th 6 5+1 4+1 2+1 — — —
8th 6 5+1 4+1 3+1 — — —
9th 6 5+1 4+1 4+1 — — —
10th 6 5+1 5+1 4+1 2+1 — —
11th 6 6+1 5+1 4+1 3+1 — —
12th 6 6+1 5+1 4+1 4+1 — —
13th 6 6+1 5+1 5+1 4+1 2+1 —
14th 6 6+1 6+1 5+1 4+1 3+1 —
15th 6 6+1 6+1 5+1 4+1 4+1 —
16th 6 6+1 6+1 5+1 5+1 4+1 2+1
17th 6 6+1 6+1 6+1 5+1 4+1 3+1
18th 6 6+1 6+1 6+1 5+1 4+1 4+1
19th 6 6+1 6+1 6+1 5+1 5+1 4+1
20th 6 6+1 6+1 6+1 6+1 5+1 5+1
Note: “+1” represents the eminence grise spell slot
Here's what I came up with, using the wizard's familiar as a base chasis, and then including parts of the eidolon and construct traits, etc. My work on the "Constructor" variant class and his construct helped out greatly in working through all this with the "Intelligent item + construct + familiar" angle.
The marionette is a wooden construct imbued with sentience, allowing it to think and feel the same way puppeteers do. However, unlike other intelligent items, a marionette cannot activate its own powers without a command from its puppeteer. However, because it is sentient, a marionette possesses an Ego score (see below). This combination of Intelligence with a high Ego score makes the marionette difficult to control and can sometimes take control of its puppeteer, making it dangerous to possess. A marionette has the following statistics:
Sentient Wooden Construct
Starting Statistics: Alignment Any (see Table 15–22 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook); Size Medium (or Small); Speed 30 ft. (Small 20 ft.); AC 12; Base Hit Points 20 (Small 10); Weakness vulnerability to fire; Attack 2 slams 1d4 (Small 1d3); Ability Scores Str 14, Dex 12, Con –, Int 6, Wis 6, Cha 6; Hardness 5; Qualities construct traits, floats on water, uses all the rules of a standard inanimate object, including those for saving throws of attended and unattended objects.
The marionette has an alignment (see Table 15–21 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook). Anyone (other than the puppeteer) whose alignment does not correspond to that of the marionette (except as noted by the asterisks on the table) gains one negative level if he or she so much as picks up the item. Although this negative level never results in actual level loss, it remains as long as the item is in hand and cannot be overcome in any way (including by restoration spells). This negative level is cumulative with any other penalties the item might place on inappropriate wielders. Marionette’s with an Ego score of 20 or higher bestows two negative levels. The puppeteer does not gain negative levels in this manner, even if his alignment does not correspond with that of the marionette. Similarly, a marionette with an Ego score of 20 or higher always considers itself superior to any character, and a personality conflict results if the puppeteer or the wielder does not always agree with the item.
A marionette possesses all three mental ability scores: Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. Each one of these ability scores begins at a value of 6, but can be increased to as high as 20. The table below shows the cost to increase one of the marionette’s mental ability scores through magical means. This cost must be paid for each ability score raised above 6. As an extension of the puppeteer’s mind, a marionette understands all the languages the puppeteer possesses.
Mental Base Price Ego
Score Modifier Modifier
6 — —
7 +20 gp —
8 +50 gp —
9 +70 gp —
10 +100 gp —
11 +200 gp —
12 +500 gp +1
13 +700 gp +1
14 +1,000 gp +2
15 +1,400 gp +2
16 +2,000 gp +3
17 +2,800 gp +3
18 +4,000 gp +4
19 +5,200 gp +4
20 +8,000 gp +5
Marionette Basics: Use the following information in addition to the marionette’s basic statistics above to determine its complete statistics.
Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the puppeteer’s character level.
Hit Points: The marionette has half the puppeteer’s total hit points (not including temporary hit points or the puppeteer’s Constitution modifier) rounded down, plus its base hit points due to size (Medium 20, Small 10).
Attacks: Use the puppeteer’s base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the marionette’s Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the marionette’s melee attack bonus with natural weapons. Damage equals that of a normal creature of the marionette’s kind.
Saving Throws: For each saving throw, use the puppeteer’s (as calculated from all his classes). The marionette uses its own ability modifiers to saves, and it doesn’t share any of the other bonuses that the puppeteer might have on saves.
Skills: For each skill in which either the puppeteer or the marionette has ranks, use either the marionette’s skill ranks or the puppeteer’s skill ranks, whichever is better. In either case, the marionette uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a marionette’s total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the marionette’s ability to use. The marionette gains 2 ranks at each level + Int modifier (if positive), and treats Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Perception, Stealth, and Swim as class skills.
Feats: A marionette shares the puppeteer's feats. Any feat based on BAB uses the puppeteer’s full BAB progression when used by the marionette.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The marionette is proficient with its natural weapons, and any armor, shield or weapon the puppeteer is proficient with.
Marionette Ability Descriptions: All marionettes have special abilities (or impart abilities to their puppeteers) depending on the puppeteer’s combined level in classes that grant marionettes, as shown on the table below. The abilities are cumulative.
[b]Puppeteer Natural Str/Dex Int Ego
Class Level Armor Adj. Bonus Bonus Score Special[b]
1st +0 +0 6 5 Alertness, construct traits, darkvision, empathic link,
low-light vision, share spells, skill bonus
2nd +1 +1 6 6 Improved evasion
3rd +1 +1 7 7 Deliver touch spells
4th +2 +1 7 8 Damage reduction (magic)
5th +2 +2 8 9 —
6th +3 +2 8 10 —
7th +3 +2 9 11 —
8th +4 +3 9 12 Improved shared spells
9th +4 +3 10 13 —
10th +5 +3 10 14 Damage reduction (weapon damage type)
11th +5 +4 11 15 —
12th +6 +4 11 16 Spell resistance
13th +6 +4 12 17 —
14th +7 +5 12 18 —
15th +7 +5 13 19 —
16th +8 +5 13 20 Damage reduction (special substance)
17th +8 +6 14 21 —
18th +9 +6 14 22 —
19th +9 +6 15 23 —
20th +10 +7 15 24 —
Natural Armor Adj.: The number noted here is in addition to the marionette’s existing natural armor bonus.
Str/Dex Bonus: Add this modifier to the marionette’s Strength and Dexterity score.
Int: The marionette’s Intelligence score.
Ego: The marionette has an ego that increases as the puppeteer becomes more powerful, as shown on the table above. Ego is a measure of the total power and force of personality that the marionette possesses. In cases where a puppeteer and its marionette come into conflict, like any intelligent item, a marionette can attempt to exert its dominance (see Items against Characters on page 535 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook see Intelligent Items). Due to its flexible and powerful nature, a marionette has a nonstandard ego progression.
Alertness (Ex): While a marionette is within arm’s reach, the puppeteer gains the Alertness feat.
Construct Traits (Ex): Marionettes are immune to death effects, disease, mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects), necromancy effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stun, and any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless). Marionettes are not subject to nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain, and cannot be raised or resurrected. Marionettes are not at risk of death from massive damage. Marionettes do not eat, drink, sleep, or breathe.
Darkvision (Ex): The marionette has darkvision out to a range of 60 feet.
Empathic Link (Su): The puppeteer has an empathic link with his marionette across any distance (as long as they are on the same plane). The puppeteer can communicate emphatically with the marionette, but cannot see through its eyes. Because of the link’s limited nature, only general emotions can be shared.
Low-Light Vision (Ex): The marionette has low-light vision, enabling it to see twice as far as a human in conditions of dim light.
Share Spells (Ex): The puppeteer may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his marionette (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A puppeteer may cast spells on his marionette even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the construct type.
Spells cast in this way must come from the puppeteer spell list. This ability does not allow the marionette to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.
Skill Bonus: An animated marionette grants a +3 bonus to Perform to the puppeteer.
Improved Evasion (Ex): When subjected to an attack that allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, a marionette takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and only half damage if the saving throw fails.
Deliver Touch Spells (Su): If the puppeteer is 3rd level or higher, a marionette can deliver touch spells for him. If the puppeteer and the marionette are in contact at the time the puppeteer casts a touch spell, he can designate his marionette as the “toucher.” The marionette can then deliver the touch spell just as the puppeteer would. As usual, if the puppeteer casts another spell before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates.
Damage Reduction: If the puppeteer is 4th level or higher, a marionette gains damage reduction/magic equal to half the puppeteer's level. This supersedes the marionette's hardness. At 10th level, the marionette gains damage reduction/bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing equal to half the puppeteer's level. At 16th level, the marionette gains damage reduction/adamantine, cold iron, or silver equal to half the puppeteer's level.
Improved Share Spells (Ex): If the puppeteer is 8th level or higher, he gains Improved Share Spells as a bonus feat.
Spell Resistance (Ex): If the puppeteer is 12th level or higher, a marionette gains spell resistance equal to the puppeteer’s level + 5. To affect the marionette with a spell, another spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the marionette’s spell resistance.
That's all for now.
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@Elghinn => Your stance on the marionette looks great, and I will certainly use some details you are proposing for the Puppeteer (mostly by nerf), but will probably use way much more for the Moving Marionette variant - here, you pretty much already did the hardest part of crunch for an independant marionette !
Still, I believe the strange link between the puppeteer and the marionette supersedes what you could see with a classic construct or a special creation from a Constructor. Hence the unusual but logical progression of the marionette. :)
- The new spellcasting explaination is a bit hard to understand at first, but great when you get the point. Will change it.
- Your marionette description will be used for the Mobile Marionette, but I prefer when the puppeteer's isn't considered as a sentient construct with it's own scores, especially before being animated (but this specific part could be a simple phrasing mistake).
- Reducing the marionette's BAB from "full" to "classic" makes more sense now that I remember I pretty much gave it the Pounce ability at level 1 into a lesser form...
I'll actualize my stance on the puppeteer's marionette in the corrected pdf, using all your suggestions.
Also, I don't hear any bell ringing about the "living puppet" and other abilities, should I deduce the only hot topic for the variant is the marionette, with some details that could be revised later, and that this looks balanced and cool enough to not change further ?
More details about the variants :
=> Can also be a basis to a druid or ranger/bard variant using instead an animal companion, the Tamer.
- Puppeteer : summoner/bard subclass, basically the rogue's ninja to the freak displayer.
- Toy Maker : puppeteer variant. It's Santa Claus with a magic tiny elven swarm attack that can help him craft items instead of a puppet, and he can curse bad guys. No, seriously.
- Mobile Marionette : puppeteer variant. Think Gepetto and Pinocchio. Weak summoner without enchantment spells, independant puppet with a limited Wish ability. I'm also thinking about making this a playable construct class without a puppeteer.
- War Puppet : Ever think about what Leonardo Da Vinci could have done in a battlefield with his revolutionary machines, had they even been built, heavily fortified clockwork constructs lowering enemy's morale while impressing allies by displaying Mona Lisa paintings between removing two orc's spines by their rectums ?
So, to recap, here is what could be coming soon :
- Freaks casting (intended to work with the synthesist variant !)
- Santa Claus and his elven army
- Gepetto and Pinocchio... or Pinocchio alone
- Leonardo da Vinci and his war machines
And all this shouldn't be doable right now by standard mechanics, so I believe it can be an interesting add to the file.
As long as you put the living puppet entries under bardic performance so it makes it clear they are a type of performance that uses rounds of bardic performance per day, they're gorgeous. I likes them.
--"The marionette cannot use the puppeteer's skill ranks as a familiar can."
This is to keep the puppeteer from having essentially 8 skill ranks per level! Why would you ever train your puppet to do things the puppeteer can if they have independent skills?
--"substitutes the puppeteer's charisma for strength, and for dexterity for the purpose of AC."
Okay! I thought that was just misstated intent.
--"Shares the puppeteer's feats."
Because I was pushing to keep the thing using only the puppeteer's BAB still and it would have been redundant. ;p
--"Drinking"
Skeletons don't drink either, but are entirely capable of using Inflict Wounds potions to heal themselves at their creators behest. They wouldn't take the action on their own (- int) but it is entirely legal. While Warforged don't drink either, they were listed as being able to consume potions. You could always generate the potion as an 'oil' for smearing on anyhow, it's a free option for potion brewers. If you don't spell out 'can't use potions' then anything capable of having oil smeared on it can have potion-effects. No reason to install that penalty anyway unless you traded that very obscure thing out for something.. like +1 ki point per five levels. (<--- dig on the monk vows)
@Elghin: Your formatting is excellent, as always.
====================
I look forward to the playtest here, so this looks like you're about ready for final draft, Maxx!
Just remember that when you do the PDF, we always use 'penalty' in gamespeak, not malus. ;p
stuff
I didn't really get a chance to look at the living puppet stuff you posted, too busy on the marionette stuff. Looks like Puplefixer has it covered.
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stuffI didn't really get a chance to look at the living puppet stuff you posted, too busy on the marionette stuff. Looks like Puplefixer has it covered.
I didn't see any feedback on my version of the mutant hag, so I thought I'd post it again. It was probably overlooked because my post was very short other than the spoiler.
The mutant hag is a witch who dabbles in alchemy to enhance her physical form for battle, sacrificing some of her hexing abilities to do so. As she gains experience, she grows more bold in her “alterations” of herself and begins to make permanent changes to her form, making her at once grotesque and fearsome.
Primary Class: Witch
Secondary Class: Alchemist
Hit Dice: d6.
Save Bonus: +2 Reflex.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: Mutant hags may select three alchemist skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal witch class skills.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Mutant hags are proficient with simple weapons. They are proficient with light armor, and do not incur a chance of spell failure from wearing light armor. Wearing medium or heavy armor, or a shield, interferes with a mutant hag’s spells as normal.
Spellcasting: A mutant hag casts spells from both the witch spell list and the alchemist formulae list, and can learn an alchemist formula in place of a witch spell at any time when she is able to learn a spell. Her spellcasting is weaker than her fellow witches, however, as shown in the mutant hag progression table. Any alchemist formula which she adds to her spell list is cast as if it were a witch spell, as she does not have the ability to create extracts.
Alchemy (Su): Beginning at 1st level, a mutant hag gains the alchemist’s alchemy class ability, allowing her to create mundane alchemy items and mutagens only. She does not gain the ability to create extracts or bombs. She gains a competence bonus equal to 1/2 her witch doctor level on Craft (alchemy) checks when crafting these items. This ability replaces the witch’s 1st level hex.
Brew Potion: At 1st level, a mutant hag gains Brew Potion as a bonus feat, and is limited to at most 3rd level spells. She can brew a potion of any spell that is on either the witch or alchemist spell list.
Mutagen (Su): At 1st level, a mutant hag gains the ability to create a mutagen that she can imbibe in order to heigthen her physical prowess. This functions exactly as the Alchemist class feature of the same name.
Tumor Familiar (Su): At 1st level, a mutant hag gains a tumor familiar as described in the Alchemist discovery of the same name in the Ultimate Magic rulebook. When the tumor familiar is attached to the mutant hag, the hag may make use of any natural attacks that the familiar has unless attaching to the mutant hag would make that attack impractical. All of the familiar’s attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks with a reach of 5 feet when attached to the mutant hag. This tumor familiar replaces the standard witch’s familiar, and stores spells as if it were a normal witch’s familiar.
Discovery (Su): Starting at 2nd level, a Mutant Hag may choose to gain an Alchemist discovery in place of a witch Hex at any level at which she could choose a Hex, and her Mutant Hag level is treated as her effective Alchemist level for any level-dependent effects. She must choose from the following list of discoveries (others could be chosen with DM approval):
Alchemical zombie**, cognatogen**, dilution*, elixer of life*, enhance potion*, eternal potion*, extend potion*, feral mutagen*, grand mutagen*, grand cognatogen**, greater mutagen*, greater cognatogen**, infuse mutagen*, parasitic twin**, preserve organs**, spontaneous healing**, tentacle**, vestigial arm**, wings
Tumor Mutations (Su): Beginning at 6th level, a mutant hag’s familiar gains a small pool of evolution points as if it were a Summoner’s eidolon. This pool is 1 point at 6th level and increses by 1 point for every three levels of mutant hag gained to a maximum of 5 points at 18th level. No evolution which makes the familiar a larger size may be chosen. If the mutant hag chooses Evolved Familiar as one of her feats, this ability stacks with that feat. This ability replaces the witch’s 6th level hex.
Persistent Mutagen (Su): At 10th level, the mutant hag gains Persistent Mutagen as the Alchemist class ability of the same name. This ability replaces Major Hex.
Mutagen Evolution (Su): At 12th level, the mutant hag herself gains a small pool of evolution points as if she were a Summoner’s eidolon. This pool is 2 points at 12th level and increases by 1 point every two levels, to a maximum of 6 points at level 20. Each time the hag gains a level, she has the option to change her current chosen evolutions. This qualifies the mutant hag for the Extra Evolution feat. The hag also gains the ability to create mutagens that give her specific evolutions, as opposed to bonuses to her ability scores. Any mutagen crafted to emulate evolution points also causes a -2 penalty to all three mental ability scores (Int, Wis, and Cha) for the duration of its use. A mutagen can be crafted to emulate up to two evolution points (the evolutions emulated are chosen at the time of the mutagen’s creation), but only a single mutagen may be used at any given time, as normal. If the hag has the greater mutagen discovery, she may make mutagens which emulate up to four evolution points. If she has the grand mutagen discovery, she may make mutagens which emulate up to 8 evolution points. The evolutions emulated by this ability must meet any prerequisites (i.e., the constrict evolution, which costs two points, may only be emulated by a mutagen if the hag already has the grab evolution), otherwise the mutagen is wasted with no effect. This ability replaces the witch’s 12th-level Hex and Grand Hex at level 16.
Special: The mutant hag qualifies for the Extra Discovery feat, and may also choose the Extra Evolution feat (though she is not an Eidolon) beginning at 12th level.
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Class Abilities
1 0 0 2 2 Cantrips, Alchemy, Brew Potion, Mutagen, Tumor Familiar
2 1 0 2 3 Hex
3 1 1 3 3
4 2 1 3 4 Hex
5 2 1 3 4
6 3 2 4 5 Tumor Mutations
7 3 2 4 5
8 4 2 4 6 Hex
9 4 3 5 6
10 5 3 5 7 Hex, Persistent Mutation
11 5 3 5 7
12 6 4 6 8 Mutagen Evolution
13 6 4 6 8
14 7 4 6 9 Hex
15 7 5 7 9
16 8 5 7 10 Hex
17 8 5 7 10
18 9 6 8 11 Hex
19 9 6 8 11
20 10 6 8 12 Hex
Spells per day table:
1 2 3 4 5 6
1
2
3
3 1
4 2
4 3
4 3 1
4 4 2
5 4 3
5 4 3 1
5 4 4 2
5 5 4 3
5 5 4 3 1
5 5 4 4 2
5 5 5 4 3
5 5 5 4 3 1
5 5 5 4 3 2
5 5 5 5 4 3
5 5 5 5 5 4
5 5 5 5 5 5
I like the mutant hag a lot, cartmanbeck. I feel like major hexes are pretty good, and I'm not happy about the witch losing her capstone entirely (kinda sucks a lot). She's also already losing a ton of spellcasting. I'd say this is pretty weak... a 1/2 bab class that can give itself a handful of evolution points at a time? I'm not sure why the spellcasting takes such a big hit, or why you're taking away the capstone... I like the flavor a lot but I think the balance needs to be rethought a bit. All the abilities are great. She just doesn't need to lose so much for them imho.
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I like the mutant hag a lot, cartmanbeck. I feel like major hexes are pretty good, and I'm not happy about the witch losing her capstone entirely (kinda sucks a lot). She's also already losing a ton of spellcasting. I'd say this is pretty weak... a 1/2 bab class that can give itself a handful of evolution points at a time? I'm not sure why the spellcasting takes such a big hit, or why you're taking away the capstone... I like the flavor a lot but I think the balance needs to be rethought a bit. All the abilities are great. She just doesn't need to lose so much for them imho.
Well, I was trying to figure out what could be switched out without taking away pretty much all of her Hexes. I suppose we could just push the Grand Hex ability back to 18th or even 20th level instead. I do think that she has to sacrifice the spellcasting to benefit from so much physical ability though.
The problem there is that instead of being good at hexes & casting, the mutant hag is then mediocre at both—but never really becomes good at physical stuff to compensate. grand mutagen (+8 str?) doesn't even bridge the gap between her BAB and the alchemist's (and the alchemist can use grand or even true mutagens on top of his already superior combat ability). I agree a trade is necessary... but what you have right now just gimps her. I'll take a look after work and see if I can make any more concrete suggestions... sorry I gotta run!
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The problem there is that instead of being good at hexes & casting, the mutant hag is then mediocre at both—but never really becomes good at physical stuff to compensate. grand mutagen (+8 str?) doesn't even bridge the gap between her BAB and the alchemist's (and the alchemist can use grand or even true mutagens on top of his already superior combat ability). I agree a trade is necessary... but what you have right now just gimps her. I'll take a look after work and see if I can make any more concrete suggestions... sorry I gotta run!
Hmm I suppose you're right. Do you think I should leave her spellcasting alone? or maybe drop just a spell slot at each level to give her the mutagens?
Here's what I think I'd do -- oh god I"m going to be late -- use the alchemist as the base. Swap out his extracts for magus-progression casting from the witch spell list. Add extracts list to witch spell list. Swap out bombs for hexes, but maybe give one at 1st, 5th, 9th levels etc. instead of every odd level. Give major hexes @ L13 or something according to that progression, and add grand hexes to grand discoveries @ L20? Swap out a few levels' of discoveries for stuff like mutant evolution and tumor evolutions. First level tumor familiar replaces throw anything.
Thoughts?
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Here's what I think I'd do -- oh god I"m going to be late -- use the alchemist as the base. Swap out his extracts for magus-progression casting from the witch spell list. Add extracts list to witch spell list. Swap out bombs for hexes, but maybe give one at 1st, 5th, 9th levels etc. instead of every odd level. Give major hexes @ L13 or something according to that progression, and add grand hexes to grand discoveries @ L20? Swap out a few levels' of discoveries for stuff like mutant evolution and tumor evolutions. First level tumor familiar replaces throw anything.
Thoughts?
Hmm I like this idea. I will write this up and see what everyone thinks.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Hmm I like this idea. I will write this up and see what everyone thinks.Here's what I think I'd do -- oh god I"m going to be late -- use the alchemist as the base. Swap out his extracts for magus-progression casting from the witch spell list. Add extracts list to witch spell list. Swap out bombs for hexes, but maybe give one at 1st, 5th, 9th levels etc. instead of every odd level. Give major hexes @ L13 or something according to that progression, and add grand hexes to grand discoveries @ L20? Swap out a few levels' of discoveries for stuff like mutant evolution and tumor evolutions. First level tumor familiar replaces throw anything.
Thoughts?
Alright let's see what you guys think now:
The mutant hag is a witch who dabbles in alchemy to enhance her physical form for battle. As she gains experience, she grows more bold in her “alterations” of herself and begins to make permanent changes to her form, making her at once grotesque and fearsome.
Primary Class: Alchemist
Secondary Class: Witch
Hit Dice: d8.
Save Bonus: +2 Will.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: A Mutant hag may select three witch skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal alchemist class skills.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Mutant hags are proficient with simple weapons. They are proficient with light armor, and do not incur a chance of spell failure from wearing light armor. Wearing medium or heavy armor, or a shield, interferes with a mutant hag’s spellcasting ability and causes her to incur a spell failure chance.
Spellcasting: A mutant hag casts spells from both the witch spell list and the alchemist formulae list. These spells are cast as witch spells and follow the spell progression for the Magus. Any alchemist formula which she adds to her spell list is cast as if it were a witch spell, as she does not have the ability to create extracts.
Alchemy (Su): Beginning at 1st level, a mutant hag gains the alchemist’s alchemy class ability, allowing her to create mundane alchemy items, potions and mutagens only. She is treated as having the cauldron hex for creating potions of spells from the witch or alchemist spell lists. She does not gain the ability to create extracts or bombs. She gains a competence bonus equal to 1/2 her mutant hag level on Craft (alchemy) checks when crafting these items.
Mutagen (Su): At 1st level, a mutant hag gains the ability to create a mutagen that she can imbibe in order to heigthen her physical prowess. This functions exactly as the Alchemist class feature of the same name.
Tumor Familiar (Su): At 1st level, a mutant hag gains a tumor familiar as described in the Alchemist discovery of the same name in the Ultimate Magic rulebook. When the tumor familiar is attached to the mutant hag, the hag may make use of any natural attacks that the familiar has unless attaching to the mutant hag would make that attack impractical. All of the familiar’s attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks with a reach of 5 feet when attached to the mutant hag. This tumor familiar replaces the standard witch’s familiar, and stores spells as if it were a normal witch’s familiar. This replaces throw anything.
Hex (Su): Starting at 1st level, and at every four levels thereafter, a Mutant Hag may choose a Hex from the witch’s Hex list, and her effective Witch level is equal to her Mutant Hag level for any level-dependent effects. This replaces the Bomb class feature.
Poison Resistance(Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a mutant hag gains poison resistance as the alchemist class feature, however this resistance continues to rise past level 8 (to +8 at level 11 and +10 at level 14) instead of becoming poison immunity at level 10. At level 17, she becomes completely immune to poison.
Tumor Mutations (Su): Beginning at 6th level, a mutant hag’s familiar gains a small pool of evolution points as if it were a Summoner’s eidolon. This pool is 1 point at 6th level and increses by 1 point for every three levels of mutant hag gained to a maximum of 5 points at 18th level. No evolution which makes the familiar a larger size may be chosen. If the mutant hag chooses Evolved Familiar as one of her feats, evolution points from this ability and that feat stack. This replaces the alchemist’s 6th-level discovery.
Persistent Mutagen (Su): At 10th level, the mutant hag gains Persistent Mutagen as the Alchemist class ability of the same name. This replaces poison immunity.
Mutagen Evolution (Su): At 12th level, the mutant hag herself gains a small pool of evolution points as if she were a Summoner’s eidolon. This pool is 2 points at 12th level and increases by 1 point every two levels, to a maximum of 6 points at level 20. Each time the hag gains a level, she has the option to change her current chosen evolutions. This qualifies the mutant hag for the Extra Evolution feat. The hag also gains the ability to create mutagens that give her specific evolutions, as opposed to bonuses to her ability scores. Any mutagen crafted to emulate evolution points also causes a -2 penalty to all three mental ability scores (Int, Wis, and Cha) for the duration of its use. A mutagen can be crafted to emulate up to two evolution points (the evolutions emulated are chosen at the time of the mutagen’s creation), but only a single mutagen may be used at any given time, as normal. If the hag has the greater mutagen discovery, she may make mutagens which emulate up to four evolution points using a mutagen. If she has the grand mutagen discovery, she may make mutagens which emulate up to 8 evolution points using a mutagen. The evolutions emulated by this ability must meet any prerequisites (i.e., the constrict evolution, which costs two points, may only be emulated by a mutagen if the hag already has the grab evolution), otherwise the mutagen is wasted with no effect. This ability replaces the alchemist’s 12th-level Discovery.
Major Hex (Su): Beginning at 13th level, the mutant hag may choose a Major Hex at any time when she normally could choose a Hex.
Special: The mutant hag qualifies for the Extra Hex feat, and may also choose the Extra Evolution feat (though she is not an Eidolon) beginning at 12th level. If the mutant hag chooses both the Feral mutagen discovery and the Nails hex, her claw attacks deal damage as if she were one size category larger (1d8 if she is medium).
Discoveries: The following discoveries complement the Mutant Hag archetype:
Cognatogen*, Feral mutagen, Grand cognatogen*, Grand mutagen, Greater cognatogen*, Greater mutagen, Infuse mutagen, Mummification*, Parasitic twin*, Preserve organs*, Spontaneous healing*, Tentacle*, Vestigial arm*, Wings*
Hexes: The following hexes complement the Mutant Hag archetype:
Coven, Disguise, Feral speech*, Flight, Nails*, Prehensile hair*, Swamp hag*, Water lung*
Major Hexes: The following major hexes complement the Mutant Hag archetype:
Hag’s eye, Hoarfrost*, Infected wounds*, Witch’s brew*
(* indicates a discovery or hex from Ultimate Magic)
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Class Abilities
1 0 2 2 2 Cantrips, Alchemy, Brew Potion, Mutagen, Tumor Familiar, Hex
2 1 3 3 2 Discovery, Poison resistance +2, Poison use
3 2 3 3 3 Swift alchemy
4 3 4 4 3 Discovery
5 3 4 4 3 Hex, Poison resistance +4
6 4 5 5 4 Tumor Mutations
7 5 5 5 4
8 6 6 6 4 Discovery, Poison resistance +6
9 6 6 6 5 Hex
10 7 7 7 5 Discovery, Major Hex, Persistent Mutation
11 8 7 7 5 Poison resistance +8
12 9 8 8 6 Mutagen Evolution
13 9 8 8 6 Hex, Major Hex
14 10 9 9 6 Discovery, Poison resistance + 10
15 11 9 9 7
16 12 10 10 7 Discovery
17 12 10 10 7 Hex, Poison immunity
18 13 11 11 8 Discovery, Instant alchemy
19 14 11 11 8
20 15 12 12 8 Hex, Grand discovery
I didn't see any feedback on my version of the mutant hag, so I thought I'd post it again. It was probably overlooked because my post was very short other than the spoiler.** spoiler omitted **...
One thing we all need to remember is that with ability swaps of a primary class, secondary class abilities should be gained at best at the same level, if not later. The alchemist doesn't get persistent mutagen until 14th, so it should be no sooner than that with the mutant hag. I'd put it at 16th and just have it choosable option to replace a hex.
"Persistent Mutagen (Su): At 16th level, the mutant hag may select the alchemist’s persistent mutagen ability in place of a hex. This functions exactly like s the alchemist’s ability of the same name."
We don't want to have ability's from the original class be better than them. It's a juggling act creating these archetypes. I'll have more in a bit.
EDIT: Man!!! I hate it when you guys do a bunch of posts before I can get mine posted!! (Dang Kids!!)
And yeah, that's the other option with these, using the secondary as the primary may work better for the archetype. Like I said, juggling act. I've had to do that a few times too.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I didn't see any feedback on my version of the mutant hag, so I thought I'd post it again. It was probably overlooked because my post was very short other than the spoiler.** spoiler omitted **...
One thing we all need to remember is that with ability swaps of a primary class, secondary class abilities should be gained at best at the same level, if not later. The alchemist doesn't get persistent mutagen until 14th, so it should be no sooner than that with the mutant hag. I'd put it at 16th and just have it choosable option to replace a hex.
"Persistent Mutagen (Su): At 16th level, the mutant hag may select the alchemist’s persistent mutagen ability in place of a hex. This functions exactly like s the alchemist’s ability of the same name."
We don't want to have ability's from the original class be better than them. It's a juggling act creating these archetypes. I'll have more in a bit.
EDIT: Man!!! I hate it when you guys do a bunch of posts before I can get mine posted!! (Dang Kids!!)
And yeah, that's the other option with these, using the secondary as the primary may work better for the archetype. Like I said, juggling act. I've had to do that a few times too.
Yeah I think having the Alchemist as the primary class is better. I still like the idea of the archetype getting Persistent Mutagen earlier though, since the archetype focuses almost solely on mutations. Do you really think it'll be overpowered to get it a few levels early?
** spoiler omitted **...
I like it. I think this flows better thant the Witch/Alchemist.
I would suggest the following changes.
1) I would take Tumor Mutation and Mutagen Evolution and make it into this:
At 12th level, the mutant hag can use her mutation pool to alter and enhance herself, just as she mutates her tumor familiar. This qualifies the mutant hag for the Extra Evolution feat. The hag also gains the ability to create mutagens that give her specific mutations, instead of the normal bonuses to her ability scores. Whenever a mutant hag uses a mutagen that emulates a mutations, she receives a –2 penalty to all three of her mental ability scores (Int, Wis, and Cha) for the duration of its use. A mutagen crafted in this manner can emulate a number of mutations up to a total of 2 mutation points (the mutations emulated are selected at the time of the mutagen’s creation). Only a single “mutation” mutagen may be active at any given time, as normal. If the hag has the greater mutagen discovery, she can craft a mutagen that emulates a number of mutations up to a total of 4 mutation points. If she has the grand mutagen discovery, she can craft a mutagen that emulates a number of mutations up to a total of 8 mutation points. The mutations emulated by this ability must meet any prerequisites, as stated in the evolution entries of the summoner class. For example, the constrict “evolution”, which costs two points, may only be emulated by a mutagen if the hag already has the grab “evolution”), otherwise the mutagen is wasted with no effect. This ability replaces the poison resistance and poison immunity abilities.
I think the whole poison immunity/resistance set is what should be replaced. Then you could create a "poison resistance" mutation she can select. I think you may also need to go through the evolution lists and make some restrictions for the archetype.
I would then keep Persistent Mutagen at 14th level.
... Do you really think it'll be overpowered to get it a few levels early?
???
I don't know? Are there alchemist archetypes that get it earlier? It probably won't be a game killer. Just remember, a normal multiclass alchemist/witch wouldn't get it until at least 15th (Alch 14/Witch 1) or later; or not at all if it was a Alch 10/ Witch 10. I always go back to this concept when looking at power and balance. But, the rules for multiclassing archetypes aren't so black and white right?
Play with it and check for OP. If it's not, it should be OK. Like you said, she is focussing on mutagens and therefore could/should get that sort of ability sooner; but then she is also using hexes too.
Sometimes these archetypes can be quite the conundrum. Trust me, I know. That's what the thread is for. Let's see what Flak and the other's think.
I don't think it would hurt to have persistent mutagen available earlier, as long as we swap something out for it. Archivist bard gets lore master earlier than normal bards. I know that these are 'multiclass archetypes' but around the time you did the bone knight I think we decided good flavor was a better design goal than an even/equivalent 50/50 split. Sword dancer gets bladethirst earlier than an arcane duelist would, for instance. (I also don't think persistent mutagen is OP... it's just a convenience ability, really.)
cartmanbeck -- nice one with the alchemist as primary!
I agree with Elghinn on the mutation pool tho.
Good work guys!
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... Do you really think it'll be overpowered to get it a few levels early????
I don't know? Are there alchemist archetypes that get it earlier? It probably won't be a game killer. Just remember, a normal multiclass alchemist/witch wouldn't get it until at least 15th (Alch 14/Witch 1) or later; or not at all if it was a Alch 10/ Witch 10. I always go back to this concept when looking at power and balance. But, the rules for multiclassing archetypes aren't so black and white right?
Play with it and check for OP. If it's not, it should be OK. Like you said, she is focussing on mutagens and therefore could/should get that sort of ability sooner; but then she is also using hexes too.
Sometimes these archetypes can be quite the conundrum. Trust me, I know. That's what the thread is for. Let's see what Flak and the other's think.
I like your version of the Mutation Pool ability, so I've switched to that, dropped the poison resistance and poison immunity as class abilities (though I think she should keep poison use). I'm still of the opinion that getting Persistent Mutagen a few levels early won't hurt anything, though, so I think it should stay at level 10 instead of 14. I'm also adding a few new discoveries and evolutions as shown here:
New Discovery:
Poison attack: When using a mutagen, your natural weapon oozes a strong poison which can be delivered by your natural attack. Choose a natural weapon with either slashing or piercing damage. When you make a successful natural attack with this natural weapon, the opponent must make a Fortitude save or be poisoned. You must have the Feral Mutagen discovery and be at least 6th level to choose this mutation, and this can be chosen more than once, each time apply it to a different natural attack.
Mutagen poison: Fort DC 10 + 1/2 Mutant Hag Level, 1d4 Con damage per round, Cure by two successful saves. Mutation disease: If a natural 1 is rolled on any save against mutagen poison, the affected creature's body mutates in a grotesque way for 1d4 days, causing one of four penalties. This mutation can only be cured by a "Cure disease" spell or similar effect. Roll a d4 on the following table:
1- Leg mutates hideously, -10 movement speed
2- Arm grows extra joints, -2 to weapon or natural attacks with primary weapon arm or 10% chance of failure of spells with somatic components. If creature has no arms, no effect.
3- Face becomes distorted and ugly, -5 on Bluff and Diplomacy checks, +2 on Intimidate checks
4- Grow a second head, which has its own personality. The DM may create a look and personality for your new head, and if the two of you disagree about an action, there is a 25% chance that the extra head may control your body for that action.
New Hex:
Hair whip: The Mutant Hag can use her prehensile hair as a whip as part of an attack action in place of one of her standard attacks (though she does not gain an extra attack by using this ability). The hair whip has all the properties of a whip (10ft range, damage based on the hag's size, trip property, etc) however the whip can be used to attack at 5ft range with no penalty and the hag is treated as having the Improved Trip feat while using her hair whip. She must have the Prehensile Hair hex to choose this hex.
I don't think it would hurt to have persistent mutagen available earlier, as long as we swap something out for it. Archivist bard gets lore master earlier than normal bards. I know that these are 'multiclass archetypes' but around the time you did the bone knight I think we decided good flavor was a better design goal than an even/equivalent 50/50 split. Sword dancer gets bladethirst earlier than an arcane duelist would, for instance. (I also don't think persistent mutagen is OP... it's just a convenience ability, really.)
cartmanbeck -- nice one with the alchemist as primary!
I agree with Elghinn on the mutation pool tho.
Good work guys!
So there you go, there are archetype examples with eariler ability gains than the base version. Go for the level change then, cartmanbeck. I don't know if we need to swap it, just move it. Like Flak said, its not really OP. Maybe go for 11th to fill a dead level.
"Persistent Mutagen (Su): At 11th level, the mutant hag gains the persistent mutagen ability."
If that's a go, here's what I've got.
The mutant hag strives to balance her obsession with witchcraft and alchemy, using the latter to enhance her physical form for battle. As she gains experience she grows bolder in her transformations, making permanent changes to her form that results in a grotesque and fearsome appearance.
Primary Class: Alchemist.
Secondary Class: Witch.
Hit Dice: d8.
Save Bonus: +2 Will.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: A mutant hag may select three witch skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal alchemist class skills. The mutant hag gains a number of ranks at each level of the multiclass archetype equal to 4 + Int.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Mutant hags are proficient with simple weapons. They are proficient with light armor, and do not incur a chance of spell failure from wearing light armor. Wearing medium or heavy armor, or a shield, interferes with a mutant hag’s spellcasting ability and causes her to incur a spell failure chance.
Spellcasting: A mutant hag casts spells from both the witch spell list and the alchemist formulae list. These spells are cast as witch spells and follows the spell progression shown on Table: Mutant Hag below. Alchemist formulae are cast as if it were a witch spells, as she does not have the ability to create extracts.
Alchemy (Su): Beginning at 1st level, a mutant hag gains the alchemist’s alchemy class ability, allowing her to create mundane alchemy items, potions and mutagens only. She is treated as having the cauldron hex for creating potions of spells from the witch or alchemist spell lists. She does not gain the ability to create extracts or bombs. She gains a competence bonus equal to 1/2 her mutant hag level on Craft (alchemy) checks when crafting these items.
Mutagen (Su): At 1st level, a mutant hag gains the ability to create a mutagen that she can imbibe in order to heigthen her physical prowess. This functions exactly as the Alchemist class feature of the same name.
Tumor Familiar (Su): At 1st level, a mutant hag gains a tumor familiar as described in the Alchemist discovery of the same name in the Ultimate Magic rulebook. When the tumor familiar is attached to the mutant hag, the hag may make use of any natural attacks that the familiar has unless attaching to the mutant hag would make that attack impractical. All of the familiar’s attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks with a reach of 5 feet when attached to the mutant hag. This tumor familiar replaces the standard witch’s familiar, and stores spells as if it were a normal witch’s familiar. This replaces throw anything.
Hex (Su): Starting at 1st level and at every four levels thereafter, a mutant hag may select a hex from the witch’s list of hexes, and counts her mutant hag level as her witch level for any hexes with level-dependent effects. This ability replaces bombs.
Mutation Pool (Su): Beginning at 6th level, a mutant hag gains a small pool of mutation points, which functions exactly like a summoner’s evolution pool. Points from this pool can be spent on a wide variety of mutations that alter and enhance the mutant hag’s tumor familiar. The number of points in the mutant hag’s pool is equal to 1/2 her mutant hag level + her Intelligence modifier. The mutant hag can spend these points to change the abilities of her tumor familiar. These choices are not set. The mutant hag can change them whenever she gains a level. Mutations function exactly like the eidolon’s evolutions, and may select from that list. No mutation which makes the familiar a larger size may be chosen. If the mutant hag chooses Evolved Familiar as one of her feats, evolution points from this ability and that feat stack.
At 12th level, the mutant hag can use her mutation pool to alter and enhance herself, just as she mutates her tumor familiar. This qualifies the mutant hag for the Extra Evolution feat. The hag also gains the ability to create mutagens that give her specific mutations, instead of the normal bonuses to her ability scores. Whenever a mutant hag uses a mutagen that emulates a mutations, she receives a –2 penalty to all three of her mental ability scores (Int, Wis, and Cha) for the duration of its use. A mutagen crafted in this manner can emulate a number of mutations up to a total of 2 mutation points (the mutations emulated are selected at the time of the mutagen’s creation). Only a single “mutation” mutagen may be active at any given time, as normal. If the hag has the greater mutagen discovery, she can craft a mutagen that emulates a number of mutations up to a total of 4 mutation points. If she has the grand mutagen discovery, she can craft a mutagen that emulates a number of mutations up to a total of 8 mutation points. The mutations emulated by this ability must meet any prerequisites, as stated in the evolution entries of the summoner class. For example, the constrict “evolution”, which costs two points, may only be emulated by a mutagen if the hag already has the grab “evolution”), otherwise the mutagen is wasted with no effect. This ability replaces the poison resistance and poison immunity abilities.
Persistent Mutagen (Su): At 11th level, the mutant hag gains the persistent mutagen ability.
Major Hex (Su): Beginning at 13th level, the mutant hag may choose a Major Hex at any time when she normally could choose a Hex.
Special: The mutant hag qualifies for the Extra Hex feat, and may also choose the Extra Evolution feat (though she is not an Eidolon) beginning at 12th level. If the mutant hag chooses both the feral mutagen discovery and the nails hex, her claw attacks deal damage as if she were one size category larger (1d8 if she is medium).
Discoveries: The following discoveries complement the mutant hag archetype: cognatogen*, feral mutagen, grand cognatogen*, grand mutagen, greater cognatogen*, greater mutagen, infuse mutagen, mummification*, parasitic twin*, preserve organs*, spontaneous healing*, tentacle*, vestigial arm*, and wings*. (*Ultimate Magic)
Hexes: The following hexes complement the mutant hag archetype: coven, disguise, feral speech*, flight, nails*, prehensile hair*, swamp hag*, water lung*. (*Ultimate Magic)
Major Hexes: The following major hexes complement the mutant hag archetype: hag’s eye, hoarfrost*, infected wounds*, witch’s brew*. (*Ultimate Magic)
Table: Mutant Hag
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1st +0 +2 +2 +2 Alchemy, brew potion, cantrips, hex, 3 1 — — — — —
mutagen, tumor familiar
2nd +1 +3 +3 +2 Discovery, poison use 4 2 — — — — —
3rd +2 +3 +3 +3 Swift alchemy 4 3 — — — — —
4th +3 +4 +4 +3 Discovery, mutation pool 4 3 1 — — — —
5th +3 +4 +4 +3 Hex 4 4 2 — — — —
6th +4 +5 +5 +4 Discovery, swift poisoning 5 4 3 — — — —
7th +5 +5 +5 +4 5 4 3 1 — — —
8th +6/+1 +6 +6 +4 Discovery 5 4 4 2 — — —
9th +6/+1 +6 +6 +5 Hex 5 5 4 3 — — —
10th +7/+2 +7 +7 +5 Discovery 5 5 4 3 1 — —
11th +8/+3 +7 +7 +5 Persistent mutagen 5 5 4 4 2 — —
12th +9/+4 +8 +8 +6 Discovery 5 5 5 4 3 — —
13th +9/+4 +8 +8 +6 Hex, major hex 5 5 5 4 3 1 —
14th +10/+5 +9 +9 +6 Discovery, persistent mutagen 5 5 5 4 4 2 —
15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +9 +7 5 5 5 5 4 3 —
16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +7 Discovery 5 5 5 5 4 3 1
17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +7 Hex 5 5 5 5 4 4 2
18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +8 Discovery, instant alchemy 5 5 5 5 5 4 3
19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +8 5 5 5 5 5 5 4
20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +8 Grand discovery, grand hex 5 5 5 5 5 5 5
Looks good to me. =)
I did a bit of streamlining on the discovery and hex.
Discovery
The following is a new alchemist’s discovery
Poison attack: When using a mutagen, your natural weapons ooze a strong mutagenic toxin which can be delivered by your natural attack. Choose a natural weapon with either slashing or piercing damage. When you make a successful attack with this natural weapon, the opponent must make a Fortitude save or be poisoned. This discovery may be selected more than once, but each time it is selected it applies to a different natural attack. You must have the feral mutagen discovery and be at least 6th level to select this discovery.
MUTAGENIC VENOM
Type poison, injury; Save Fortitude DC 10 + 1/2 class level
Frequency 1/round for 6 rounds
Initial Effect 1d4 Con damage; Secondary Effect On a roll of 1 you contract a mutagenic disease; Cure 2 consecutive saves
MUTAGENIC DISEASE
Type disease, injury; Save none to negate; Fort DC 15 to avoid effects
Onset 1 day; Frequency 1/week
Effect target develops one of four physical deformities, as shown below; Cure cure disease or similar spell effect)
Deformity
Roll Effect
1 target’s leg mutates hideously and takes a speed reduction of 10 ft.
2 target’s arm grows extra joints and receives a –2 penalty to all attack rolls make with a weapon or natural weapon; if the target is a spellcaster, its arcane spell failure change increases by 10%; if the target has no arms there is no effect.
3 target’s face becomes distorted and ugly, receives a –5 penalty on all Bluff and Diplomacy checks, and a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks
4 target grow a second head with its own personality; the GM may create the appearance and personality for the new head; if a disagreement between the target and the second head about an action, there is a 25% chance that the extra head takes control of the target’s body for the duration of that action.
Hex
The following is a new witch’s hex.
Hair Whip: The mutant hag can use her prehensile hair as a whip as part of an attack action in place of one of her standard attacks (though she does not gain an extra attack by using this ability). The hair whip has all the properties of a whip (10 ft. range, damage based on the hag's size, trip property, etc.). The mutant hag can make a hair whip attack with a 5 ft. range with no penalties, and is treated as having the Improved Trip feat when using her hair whip in combat. She must have the prehensile hair hex to choose this hex.
Looks good to me. =)
Where's your Temple Assassin Flak?
aaaaah you caught me :[
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Not perfect, but closer than ever ; the Puppeteer 4.
Notable changes :
- Marionette. Lost of changes !
- Less checks for Living Puppets abilities, but more balanced ones.
- Funnier and clearer Soul Absorbing Gaze description. Don't know if I could use spell-like abilities and spells too, or just let it as a big marionette buff.
- All puppeteer's bardic performances detailed on the ability description so there is no possible mistake on what is and what is not.
- More details on exerting dominance.
- More details on the marionette's behavior.
- Three Traits intended to work with everyone, but especially useful to a puppeteer.
@Elghinn : The Moving Puppet is a variant I could do if my own morale doesn't again plunge into a -25 penalty with auto-fail Will save not to use the Mighty Pills of Seeing Life in Pink.
Basically, a summoner using bardic performance to animate a violent construct with it's own independant stats, more in touch with what you proposed earlier than for the puppeteer.
aaaaah you caught me :[
That's my job! =D Post it when you can. I'm just trying to clean up the archetypes that are still foating out there.
So we still have:
Temple Assassin (almost done)
Dead Shaman (we need to start focusing on this one)
Arcane Vessel (who's was this? We haven't finalized it yet either)
I'm starting on the Sabaoth Knight concept, but I won't post anything until we get some of these others out if the way (plus I don't have anything yet either :D)
Not perfect, but closer than ever ; the Puppeteer 4.
...
I only did a pelimenary scan of the document but it looks pretty good. I'll have to take a better look. Flak (or anyone else)?
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I did a bit of streamlining on the discovery and hex.
Discovery
The following is a new alchemist’s discovery
Poison attack: When using a mutagen, your natural weapons ooze a strong mutagenic toxin which can be delivered by your natural attack. Choose a natural weapon with either slashing or piercing damage. When you make a successful attack with this natural weapon, the opponent must make a Fortitude save or be poisoned. This discovery may be selected more than once, but each time it is selected it applies to a different natural attack. You must have the feral mutagen discovery and be at least 6th level to select this discovery.MUTAGENIC VENOM
Type poison, injury; Save Fortitude DC 10 + 1/2 class level
Frequency 1/round for 6 rounds
Initial Effect 1d4 Con damage; Secondary Effect On a roll of 1 you contract a mutagenic disease; Cure 2 consecutive savesMUTAGENIC DISEASE
Type disease, injury; Save none to negate; Fort DC 15 to avoid effects
Onset 1 day; Frequency 1/week
Effect target develops one of four physical deformities, as shown below; Cure cure disease or similar spell effect)Deformity
Roll Effect
1 target’s leg mutates hideously and takes a speed reduction of 10 ft.
2 target’s arm grows extra joints and receives a –2 penalty to all attack rolls make with a weapon or natural weapon; if the target is a spellcaster, its arcane spell failure change increases by 10%; if the target has no arms there is no effect.
3 target’s face becomes distorted and ugly, receives a –5 penalty on all Bluff and Diplomacy checks, and a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks
4 target grow a second head with its own personality; the GM may create the appearance and personality for the new head; if a disagreement between the target and the second head about an action, there is a 25% chance that the extra head takes control of the target’s body for the duration of that action.Hex
The following is a new witch’s hex.
Hair Whip: The mutant hag can use her prehensile hair as a whip as part of an attack...
I hate how good you are at making these sound so professional!! :-P
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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aaaaah you caught me :[That's my job! =D Post it when you can. I'm just trying to clean up the archetypes that are still foating out there.
So we still have:
Temple Assassin (almost done)
Dead Shaman (we need to start focusing on this one)
Arcane Vessel (who's was this? We haven't finalized it yet either)I'm starting on the Sabaoth Knight concept, but I won't post anything until we get some of these others out if the way (plus I don't have anything yet either :D)
I had done Arcane Vessel, here's what I had:
Arcane Vessel
The Arcane Vessel is tasked with using the divine gifts granted to her from birth along with martial prowess to strike deadly, magic-infused blows against her enemies. She is infused with raw arcane energy and must expel it into her enemies often, or risk losing her mind to the insane visions caused by her innate power.
Primary Class: Magus
Secondary Class: Oracle
Hit Dice: d8
Bonus Skills and Ranks: Arcane Vessels may select three skills from either the Oracle class skills or those listed under the description of her Mystery and add them to her class skills, in addition to the normal rogue class skills. The Arcane Vessel gains a number or ranks at each level equal to 2 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Arcane Vessels are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and light armor. She can cast her spells while wearing light armor with no penalty, but incurs the standard arcane failure chance penalties for casting in medium or heavy armor or if wielding a shield..=
Mystery: At 1st level, an Arcane Vessel chooses one Oracle Mystery. Once made, this choice cannot be changed. Beginning at 2nd level, she adds a Mystery Spell to her spell list. At 4th level and every four levels after, she adds another Mystery Spell to her spell list, up to and including her 6th-level mystery spell at level 20, and she gains a bonus spell slot for each of these spells, which can only be used for a Mystery spell (although she may sacrifice a higher level bonus spell slot to cast a lower-level Mystery spell). These spells are cast spontaneously (they need not be prepared each day) but otherwise act as Magus spells of the same level. In addition, the mystic knave does not add all of her chosen mystery skills to her class skill list, as described above. This ability replaces Spell Recall, Improved Spell Recall.
Spellcasting: An Arcane Vessel casts prepared spells drawn from the Magus spell list, and in addition can cast any of her Mystery spells spontaneously as a Magus spell of the same level (see description in the Mystery ability above). Other than the bonus spell slots granted by her Mystery spells, she follows the spellcasting progression shown in the Magus class table. She incurs arcane spell failure when wearing medium or heavy armor, or when wielding any type of shield.
Oracle's Curse (Ex): An Arcane Vessel is constantly afflicted with strange visions caused by the pure arcane energy that fills her, and these cause her to act strangely during and outside of battle. At 1st level, she must choose the Insane Visions Oracle's curse. This works exactly like the Oracle ability of the same name, but her effective oracle level is equal to her Arcane Vessel level for determining any level-dependent effects.
New Oracle’s Curse: Insane Visions – The Oracle’s mind is cluttered by visions that distract her and inhibit her interactions with others, but these visions give her some defense against others trying to attack her mind. The oracle can never take a 10 or 20 on a skill check. The oracle also suffers a -4 penalty on all Concentration checks and a -2 penalty on Diplomacy checks due to her lack of attention during conversations. At 5th level, as the Oracle begins to learn to relegate her attention better, the penalty to Concentration checks becomes -2, and she gains a +2 bonus to saving throws against mind-affecting effects. At level 10, her bonus to saving throws against mind-affecting effects increases to +4. At level 15, that bonus increases to +6. At level 20, she is immune to mind-affecting effects.
Revelations: Beginning at 1st level, an Arcane Vessel may select one revelation associated with her chosen Mystery. Unless otherwise noted, the DC to save against a given revelation is 10 + 1/2 the Arcane Vessel level + the Arcane Vessel's Charisma modifier. Levels in the Oracle class stack with this ability when determining the required level for a revelation and any save DCs associated with it. The Arcane Vessel may choose an additional revelation in place of a Magus Arcana at any level when she could normally choose an Arcana.
Arcane Visions (Su): At 4th level, the Arcane Vessel begins to tolerate, and even comprehend the insane visions that raw magic constantly assails her with, and can begin to turn them on other magic users. When an Arcane Vessel is targeted with a spell or spell-like ability by an opponent (even as part of an area effect), part of the spell's magic is rebounded onto the caster. The caster must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 Arcane Vessel Level + Cha modifier) or be stricken with the Arcane Vessel's insane visions and dazed for 1 round as they try to sort out the confusing images assailing their mind. This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to 3 + the Arcane Vessel’s Charisma modifier. This ability replaces the bonus feat at level 5.
Improved Arcane Visions (Su): At 11th level, if an opponent fails to save against the effect of the Arcane Vessel’s Arcane Visions ability, the opponent is instead confused for 1d4 rounds. This ability replaces the bonus feat at level 11.
Greater Arcane Visions (Su): At 17th level, the arcane vessel can choose to target a number of creatures up to her Charisma modifier within a 30-foot radius, and centered on the caster of the spell which targeted her. Each targeted creature, including the caster upon whom it is centered, must make a Will save or be afflicted with arcane visions. The DC for one creature is equal to 10 + 1/2 arcane vessel’s level + the arcane vessel’s Charisma modifier, and is lowered by 1 for each additional creature targeted up to the arcane vessel’s Charisma modifier. This ability replaces the bonus feat at 17th level.
Divine Spell Access (Su): At 19th level, the Arcane Vessel is so in tune with the arcane forces that empower her that deities of magic begin to take notice and grant her small boons. She learns and places 12 spells from the Cleric spell list into her Magus spellbook, two from each spell level (level 0 to level 5). These spells are cast as Magus spells and can be cast using either Magus spell slots or the Arcane Vessel’s bonus slots from her Mystery spells. The Arcane Vessel may not learn or cast any spells which are opposed to her alignment (for example, a Neutral Good Arcane Vessel may cast spells from the Cleric spell list with either the Chaotic or Lawful descriptor, but not the Evil descriptor). If her alignment changes, she loses access to those spells that are opposed to her new alignment. This ability replaces Greater Spell Access.
Magus Arcana: The following Arcana complement the Arcane Vessel archetype: Concentrate, Dispelling Strike, Empowered Magic, Maximized Magic, Quickened Magic, Reflection, Silent Magic, Still Magic.
Mysteries: The following Mysteries complement the Arcane Vessel archetype: Battle, Lore, Wind, Metal
Revelations: The Arcane Vessel adds the following revelations to those available based on her Mystery:
Dance of the Blades (Ex): Your base speed increases by 10 feet. At 7th level, you gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls with a metal weapon in any round in which you move at least 10 feet. This bonus ncreases by +1 at 11th level, and every four levels thereafter. At 11th level, as a move action, you can maneuver your weapon to create a shield of whirling steel around yourself until the start of your next turn; non-incorporeal melee and ranged attacks against you have a 20% miss chance while the shield is active. You must be wielding a metal weapon to use this ability.
[Any new revelations that make sense for this archetype??]
Special: An Arcane Vessel qualifies for the Extra Revelation feat.
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Class Abilities
1 0 2 0 2 Arcane Pool, Cantrips, Spell Combat, Mystery, Oracle’s Curse (Insane Visions), Revelation
2 1 3 0 3 Spellstrike, Mystery Spell
3 2 3 1 3 Magus Arcana
4 3 4 1 4 Mystery Spell
5 3 4 1 4 Arcane Visions
6 4 5 2 5 Magus Arcana
7 5 5 2 5 Knowledge Pool, Medium Armor
8 6 6 2 6 Mystery Spell, Improved Spell Combat
9 6 6 3 6 Magus Arcana
10 7 7 3 7 Fighter Training
11 8 7 3 7 Improved Arcane Visions
12 9 8 4 8 Mystery Spell, Magus Arcana
13 9 8 4 8 Heavy Armor
14 10 9 4 9 Greater Spell Combat
15 11 9 5 9 Magus Arcana
16 12 10 5 10 Mystery Spell, Counterstrike
17 12 10 5 10 Greater Arcane Visions
18 13 11 6 11 Magus Arcana
19 14 11 6 11 Divine Spell Access
20 15 12 6 12 Mystery Spell, True Magus
I had done Arcane Vessel, here's what I had:** spoiler omitted **...
I don't think we officially finished it did we?
And making it look professional is what I am about. =D