Armor spikes don't just have to be on your arm. It could be on your greaves (legs), so I don't see any issue with two weapon fighting and making offhand attacks with armor spikes and retaining the AC bonus. Hell you can have armor spikes on your helm and you're just head butting.No you can't. If you're attacking with armor spikes you're using an arm to do so. If you're using your shield arm you don't get the AC bonus without some heavy feat investment, with out some more investment your attack gets a penalty equal to that of the armor check penalty of the shield.
Basically it's almost the same thing as using say a dagger in your shield hand.
True.
Additionally, you can wield a two-handed weapon and use armor spikes and use TWF.
Two weapon fighting is not monk combat. it's built specifically on using two arms to wield two weapons, or two ends of a double weapon. No matter how much you cheese it, the rules do not support using two weapon fighting with greatsword + anything else.
That's entirely your opinion. Not fact.
Two weapon fighting is not monk combat. it's built specifically on using two arms to wield two weapons, or two ends of a double weapon. No matter how much you cheese it, the rules do not support using two weapon fighting with greatsword + anything else.
The devs have already stated that anyone can make an unarmed attack as a kick or headbutt, that is not 'monk specific'. Armor Spikes say you can use them as a primary or off-hand attack, and they count as light for either. The spikes do not require you to use your arms to make the attack (if they did, they would be useless while grappled, as you couldn't use your arms while they are grappled).
Also, the 3.5 FAQ would like to comment.
QUESTION : Is a character wielding a two-handed reach weapon (such as a longspear) and wearing spiked armor threatening all squares within 10 feet? Assuming he has Combat Reflexes, can he make an attack of opportunity with his longspear and then with his armor spikes in the
same round?
ANSWER : A character wearing spiked armor threatens all squares within his normal reach (5 feet away). If he also wields a longspear, he would also threaten all squares 10 feet away. Any time a character wielding more than one weapon is allowed an attack of opportunity, he can use any weapon that threatens the opponent who has provoked the attack. In this case, imagine an enemy who charged the character and then tried to disarm him. The charge attack would provoke an attack of opportunity from the longspear as the enemy moved out of a threatened square (in order to move adjacent to the character and deliver the charge attack). Then, the disarm attempt would provoke another attack of opportunity (assuming the enemy didn’t have Improved Disarm). This attack of opportunity could be made only with the armor spikes, since the longspear doesn’t threaten an adjacent enemy
QUESTION : Just how and when can you use armor spikes? If you’re using two weapons already, can you use armor spikes to make a second off-hand attack? What if you’re using a weapon and a shield? Can you use the armor spikes for an off-hand attack and still get a shield bonus to Armor Class from the shield? What if you use a two-handed weapon? Can you wield the weapon in two hands and still make an off-hand attack with the spikes? What are your options for using armor spikes in a grapple? Can you use them when pinned? If you have another light weapon, can you use that and your armor spikes when grappling?
ANSWER : When you fight with more than one weapon, you gain an extra attack. (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and greater Two-Weapon Fighting give you more attacks with the extra weapon.) Armor spikes are a light weapon that can be used as the extra weapon. If you attack only with your armor spikes during your turn (or use the armor spikes to make an attack of opportunity), you use them just like a regular weapon.
Whenever you use armor spikes as an off-hand weapon, you suffer all the penalties for attacking with two weapons (see Table 8–10 in the PH). When using armor spikes along with a two-handed weapon, it is usually best to use the two-handed weapon as your primary attack and the armor spikes as the offhand weapon. You can use the armor spikes as the primary weapon and the two-handed weapon as the off-hand attack, but
when you do so, you don’t get the benefit of using a light weapon in your off hand. You cannot, however, use your armor spikes to make a second off-hand attack when you’re already fighting with two weapons. If you have a weapon in both hands and armor spikes, you can attack with the weapons in your hands (and not with the armor spikes) or with one of the weapons in your hands and the armor spikes (see the description of spiked armor in Chapter 7 of the PH).
<remainder of answer left out due to it being about grapples and spikes>
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It does bring up the issue of what STR bonus dmg you get on the main-hand.
The only Paizo feedback on this has been from James Jacobs (NOT Paizo´s crunch guru, but still an awesome dude),
who ruled that Double Weapons don´t get the STR bonus for wielding a weapon in 2-hands (for main-hand, off-hand attacks are explicitly defined as only using 1/2 STR bonus), though without providing any RAW justification. There is no special wording for double weapons that affects STR damage bonuses, but if the ´RAI´ is that this is how it´s meant to be played, I´d assume the same applies to Greatsword (main-hand) + Armor Spike (´offhand´) 2WF combos... Still a good deal because you get the big base dmg, and can use 2Handed dmg bonus whenever you are not 2WF´ing. I tried to get RAW-justified confirmation of this long ago (/Errata/etc), but nothing ever came of it.
IMHO, the no-2Handed-STR-bonus IS the RAI, but doesn´t correspond to RAW.
Also IMHO, using 2Handed STR bonus on main-hand during 2WF is completely balanced if only using Core Rules,
but if APG material, e.g. 2WF and Mobile Fighter Archetypes, Barbarian Pounce, etc, are allowed,
allowing 2Handed STR to main-hand during 2WF becomes un-balancing.
A double weapon is basically a light weapon in each hand (think about how you fight with a quarterstaff), so you get 1x str on the 'primary' attack and 1/2 str on off hand (same as wielding a long sword and a short sword).
For using a two-handed weapon, you're using both hands, so it get's 2x str, and the armor spikes, being the 'off-hand' attack would get 1/2 str, as normal.
OK... ´basically´. But the RAW of DoubleWeapon is counting as Lt/1H Wpn FOR 2WF PENALTIES.
2WF rules NOWHERE discuss main-hand damage modifier, i.e. no modification there.
I don´t see why we should allow 2H dmg for main-hand of Greatsword+Spikes 2WF while disallowing it for DoubleWeapon 2WFing.
OK... ´basically´. But the RAW of DoubleWeapon is counting as Lt/1H Wpn FOR 2WF PENALTIES.
2WF rules NOWHERE discuss main-hand damage modifier, i.e. no modification there.
I don´t see why we should allow 2H dmg for main-hand of Greatsword+Spikes 2WF while disallowing it for DoubleWeapon 2WFing.
Double Weapons: Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaves, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
A double weapon only counts as a 2-handed weapon if it's used with both hands to attack with one end. That's when you'd get 2x Str. When you use it two-handed to fight as twf, then you're using it as 1-handed for each end, which means you get 1x str for the 'primary' end, and 0.5str for the 'off-hand' end.
A few houserules I use since I only like cheese on pizza:
1) I'd not allow the use of more than one 'off-hand', wether it is an actual hand or a foot.
2) You can use a 2hand weapon with 1x strength (mainhand) and an off-hand 0.5 str bonus armor spike in this case. Power attack with a 2hand weapon gets a +2 damage per -1 penalty to hit in this case.
3) If you want to benefit from using a shield while attacking with a foot, headbutt or armor spikes I will require the 'improved shield bash' feat, even if you do not actually attack with the shield, or lose the AC bonus.
4) In the case of the two-weapon fighter I'd allow an extra attack to be made but with an additional -2 penalty on all his attacks.
I'd possibly allow additional feats to adjust these penalties in some fashion.
my gm won't allow armor spikes to be used and retain the AC from shield, which blows, hes like its off hand so its the hand with the shield if you are using a weapon and shield. and improved shield bash won't work cause you are using armor spikes instead of bashing with a shield.
His prerogative, but you can knee, kick, and shoulder ram with armor spikes as well.
A few houserules I use since I only like cheese on pizza:
1) I'd not allow the use of more than one 'off-hand', wether it is an actual hand or a foot.
2) You can use a 2hand weapon with 1x strength (mainhand) and an off-hand 0.5 str bonus armor spike in this case. Power attack with a 2hand weapon gets a +2 damage per -1 penalty to hit in this case.
3) If you want to benefit from using a shield while attacking with a foot, headbutt or armor spikes I will require the 'improved shield bash' feat, even if you do not actually attack with the shield, or lose the AC bonus.
4) In the case of the two-weapon fighter I'd allow an extra attack to be made but with an additional -2 penalty on all his attacks.
I'd possibly allow additional feats to adjust these penalties in some fashion.
+1
I might not consider 3 and 4 in my houserulings, but 1 and 2 are solid for me.
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This is not necessarily true.
A person using a 2H weapon and armor spikes gets 1 1/2 str to dam with the 2 hand weapon and 1/2 str with the spikes. But he also has 2 seperate weapons to spend weapon focus tree feats on.
A person using a double weapon gets only 1 times str with 1 end and 1/2 str with the other end. But they save feats on the weapon focus tree.
Each option has its benefits. If everything was exactly the same, you actually be making choices by choosing 1 weapon or another. I like that weapon selection impacts how you build a character.
On top of your point (that unlike a normal TWF build, his feats for the 2HW won't work for his spikes, unlike say a dual rapier wielder), unlike a normal 2HW build, he's having to enchant two sets of weapons. So a 2HTWF spends as much on resources as the TWF, and has to get more feats to boot. Definitely not overpowered. I would expect someone who had to spend 2-3 more feats on a build to get something out of it power wise.
Here's how I think the math on two competing builds would work, assuming both builds are wearing the same type of armor:
Str 18 THW Fighter with Greatsword and Weapon Focus feat has avg damage of 7+6 for Base DPR of 13.
Str 16/Dex 14 fighter with Longsword/Armor Spikes/Heavy Shield and TWF feat has avg damage of 4.5 + 3 and 3.5 + 1 for Base DPR of 12
THW Fighter has 2 higher BAB (strength+feat), so DPR goes up by 10%. Opponent (TWF Fighter) has 4 extra points of AC (shield+dex), so DPR goes down by 20%. Adjusted DPR of 11.7 (-10%)
TWF Fighter has 2 pt BAB penalty on each attack for Two Weapon Fighting with a light weapon, reducing DPR on each attack by 10%. Adjusted DPR = 10.8 (-10%)
In a head to head duel, the Greatsword wielding Fighter does more damage per round than the TWF Fighter with Armor Spikes and hvy shield, despite the greater AC of the TWF Fighter.
Greatsword FTW!
I believe the disparity would only get larger as the single weapon fighter concentrates his/her feats/cash on a single weapon, while the TWF must concentrate on more than one weapon (and a shield) and on a much higher number of desirable feats.
Note on ability scores:
There may be more efficient ways to assign Attribute points, but I went with the following:
THW Fighter spends 10 pts on Str (16+2=18), leaving 10 pts for Con (16)
TWF Fighter spends 5 pts on Str (14+2=16), 5pts on Dex (14) and 10 pts for Con (16).
Additional Note: Feel free to correct the math if you see an error.
Abbreviations:
THW Two Handed Weapon
TWF Two Weapon Fighting
DPR Damage per Round
AC Seriously?
Adding to Jake's math (assuming it's all correct)...
THTWF (Two-Handed Two-Weapon Fighter) would have Two-Weapon Fighting feat, 16 STR/14 DEX. He'd do 7+5 for the Greatsword, and 3.5+2 for the armor spikes for a base DPR of 17.
Rather than compare them to each other head to head, let's compare their output assuming they are all attacking the same BBEG. Let's set the baseline at 16 STR. Let's also give the TWF a longsword and a short sword instead. This gives the TWF the same DPR as above, but you'll see why in a second.
THW fighter has +2 BAB (feat and str), so his DPR goes up compared to everyone else. That's a +10% boost, so his DPR average goes up to 13.65.
THTWF has 2 less attack bonus due to TWF feat (Note, it only cares about the off-hand weapon, not the primary weapon, and armor spikes are light), reducing his to-hits by 10%, adjusting his DPR down to 15.3.
TWF has has 2 less attack bonus due to TWF feat, reducing his to-hits by 10%, adjusting his DPR down to 10.8.
So, the THTWF wins at first level (although he's also spending most of his resources on his greatsword, armor and armor spikes).
If we take them up to 2nd level, and give them each another feat...
THW takes Power Attack.
THTWF takes Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
TWF takes Weapon Focus (Short Sword) and switches out his longsword for a shortsword. This reduces his DPR by 1 to 11.
THW fighter has +1 BAB (feat, Str, and Power Attack), but his DPR also goes up by 2. So his base DPR goes up to 15. His adjusted DPR = 15.75
THTWF has a -1 BAB (TWF + Feat), so his DPR get's adjusted, but we have to adjust seperately, since the WF only affects the greatsword. His DPR becomes 11.4 (greatsword) + 4.95 (spikes) = 16.35.
TWF has a -1 BAB (TWF + Feat) and his damage get's adjusted to 10.45.
Now, THW and THTWF are doing about the same amount of damage at 2nd level. As they continue to go up, THW guy will continue to be focused on strictly his greatsword, while at best THTWF guy can keep up by doing the same. This puts them about even. TWF guy will continue to focus on short swords, likely getting keen on both, to boost his DPR, and also getting things like Double Slice. Now, THTWF can also get double slice, but then he's splitting his feats. Basically, THTWF guy will have to spend ALL his feats on keeping his edge of THW guy, whereas THW guy can blow a feat or two on non DPR pumping feats.
As always, TWF guy is spending all his feats on making sure his weapons crank as much as possible (also on ITWF, which may not be worth it for THTWF guy considering he could dedicate that feat slot to something for his Greatsword, like Improved Crit). Note also that TWF guy should take Imp Crit as well.
Anyway, beyond second level, you start getting into magic weapons builds and such, and THW guy can focus on just his greatsword and armor, whereas THTWF has to focus on his greatsword, armor, and spikes and TWF has to do both his swords and his armor.
Basically, THTWF ends up being inbetween THW and TWF guys (mainly because THW guy will always have more cash to spend on his greatsword than THTWF guy). Either that, or THTWF guy never enchants his armor spikes, in which case they gradually become useless.
First unless I am understanding the above to posts incorrectly, your stat builds don't allow for two weapon fighting with only a 14 dexterity, a 15 is needed. Also if we are talking about planned characters, stats will more then likely be skewed to have best end results as early as possible.
lets assume 20 point build human fighter
TWF THTWF
Str. 14 16/18
Dex. 17/19 15
Con. 12 13
Int. 10 10
Wis. 10 10
Cha. 10 10
In all honesty weapon selection doesn't matter it comes down to hitting and number of attacks.
The THTWF will hit better at low levels because his strength can over come the penalties much more adequately then the TWF.
If you take a look at the benchmark levels for Two weapon fighting, the two weapon fighter should be better off as he has met his requirements for the feats and can now concentrate on strength from the get go. Assuming at level 11 he has taken the appropriate feats and added two points to strength we are looking at a base of +5 to damage on both hands with out magic and this is for 6 attacks. where ass the THTWF has to choose for either additional attacks or maximize damage on one attack style as pointed out he will continue to lag because of wither lack of attacks or becuase his static damage will never increase enough on his off hand attack.
this doesn't even take into the fact that either could be using high crit weapons or if the TWF choses to use the same weapon and take the attack penalty for one handed weapons, or concentrate on the same light weapon
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There are no balance issues with the armor spikes. There are no overpowered builds that depend solely on armor spikes. They are weak weapons, that can be used to fill certain gaps. This argument makes as much sense as the "monks are overpowered" arguments. It is silly. They work just fine with whatever you have in your hands. A naga can use armor spikes.