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Can a spell with a casting time of 1 round, such as enlarge person, be quickened?
Or, does the distinction made between 1 round casting time and full-round action casting time suggest otherwise?
For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.
Spontaneous Casting and Metamagic Feats: A cleric spontaneously casting a cure or inflict spell, or a druid spontaneously casting a summon nature's ally spell, can cast a metamagic version of it instead. Extra time is also required in this case. Casting a standard action metamagic spell spontaneously is a full-round action, and a spell with a longer casting time takes an extra full-round action to cast. The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell feat, which can be cast as a swift action.
Can a spell with a casting time of 1 round, such as enlarge person, be quickened?
Or, does the distinction made between 1 round casting time and full-round action casting time suggest otherwise?
** spoiler omitted **
"A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full-round action cannot be quickened."
Sounds like this is not allowed, since a 1-round casting time is longer than a full-round action casting time, even though it still only costs 1 full round action. You could interpret it the other way, taking "casting time of 1 full-round action" to mean not to the specific casting time "full-round action", but rather any casting time that costs the caster a full-round action. That interpretation is dodgy though, and I'd definitely check with your GM before trying to utilize a combo like that.
"A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full-round action cannot be quickened."Sounds like this is not allowed, since a 1-round casting time is longer than a full-round action casting time, even though it still only costs 1 full round action. You could interpret it the other way, taking "casting time of 1 full-round action" to mean not to the specific casting time "full-round action", but rather any casting time that costs the caster a full-round action. That interpretation is dodgy though, and I'd definitely check with your GM before trying to utilize a combo like that.
+1. Casting a spell as a full-round action (such as a metamagic bard spell) takes your entire turn but still happens on your turn. (Just like every martial character's favourite Full-Round Action: Full Attack.)
Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 round, OTH, you start on your action in the first round, and finish right before your next action in round 2. That's longer than a full-round action, and so, can't be quickened.
(And yes, OP, that's what the part you bolded was meant to show)
My gaming group just noticed this spell is a 1 round casting time. Like two weeks ago...
Sounds like this is not allowed, since a 1-round casting time is longer than a full-round action casting time, even though it still only costs 1 full round action. You could interpret it the other way, taking "casting time of 1 full-round action" to mean not to the specific casting time "full-round action", but rather any casting time that costs the caster a full-round action. That interpretation is dodgy though, and I'd definitely check with your GM before trying to utilize a combo like that.
It doesn't sound dodgy to me; if it takes a full-round action to cast, it takes a full-round action to cast. Just because spontaneous metamagicked spells activate a bit quicker doesn't change the action needed to cast.
I certainly don't think that Quickened Enlarge Person is an unbalanced 5th level spell!
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"A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full-round action cannot be quickened."
Sounds like this is not allowed, since a 1-round casting time is longer than a full-round action casting time, even though it still only costs 1 full round action.
Buh?
A casting time of 1 round is longer than a casting time of one full round? I... that... wha... no!
The casting time of Enlarge person is exactly 1 full-round action. Spells with casting times longer than one full round (such as sending, guards and wards, or lesser restoration) cannot be quickened.
I was sure you were mistaken, but you are not. I never knew those spells(restoration line) took so long to cast. My group is going to hate that.
"A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full-round action cannot be quickened."
Sounds like this is not allowed, since a 1-round casting time is longer than a full-round action casting time, even though it still only costs 1 full round action.
Buh?
A casting time of 1 round is longer than a casting time of one full round? I... that... wha... no!
The casting time of Enlarge person is exactly 1 full-round action. Spells with casting times longer than one full round (such as sending, guards and wards, or lesser restoration) cannot be quickened.
Again -- let's compare 1 round to full-round... and the difference is this:
Scenario 1: Full-Round Action to cast (example: Sorcerer empowering a Burning Hands).
- Sorcerer's init is 10.
- At 10, he can take a 5' step (at most) and then cast his spell.
- Woosh, flames and burned goblins. Still at 10.
- At 8, the now-charred goblins go.
Scenario 2: 1 round casting time. (Example: Enlarge Person).
- Sorcerer's Init is 10.
- At 10, he starts to cast the spell.
- At 8, the goblins step in and smack him with their dogslicers.He needs to make several concentration checks.
- Next round, at 20, the goblin druid Entagles the Sorcerer. (Concentration check...)
- At 16, the goblin archer shoots the mage who's still casting a spell. Concentration check, again.
- Now, assuming that he made his many concentration checks... we get an enlarge person effect at 10.
- The sorcerer is now free to do something else this round.
1 round casting time > full round action. Therefore, no quicken.
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Page 213, Magic.
"A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action."
Does it take more actions after the full-round action? No, it does not. A casting time of 1 round and a casting time of a full-round action are the same thing.
Is there a place where it says that spontaneous metamagic is an exception to the rule? 'cause I don't think it is.
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Page 213, Magic.
"A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action."Does it take more actions after the full-round action? No, it does not. A casting time of 1 round and a casting time of a full-round action are the same thing.
Is there a place where it says that spontaneous metamagic is an exception to the rule? 'cause I don't think it is.
A casting time of 1 round and a casting time of a full-round action explicitly are not the same thing. I bolded the relevant text in the spoiler of the first post in the thread.
Casting a 1 round spell or a full-round spontaneous metamagic spell both take the same actions; they both take a full-round action to cast. However, the full-round action comes into effect at the end of casting, during the caster's turn, while the 1 round spell requires that the caster continue casting until the start of his next turn. The action count is the same. The casting time is different. That's how it appears to me, anyway.
Is there a place where it says that spontaneous metamagic is an exception to the rule? 'cause I don't think it is.
Yes, and it was bolded above.
Casting a 1 round spell or a full-round spontaneous metamagic spell both take the same actions; they both take a full-round action to cast. However, the full-round action comes into effect at the end of casting, during the caster's turn, while the 1 round spell requires that the caster continue casting until the start of his next turn. The action count is the same. The casting time is different. That's how it appears to me, anyway.
And I'm in full agreement with that. It says "casting time longer than a full round action" under Quicken. Otherwise, they could have said "casting time longer than 1 round" and there'd be no need for this discussion.
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How unusual and counter-intuitive! I would have thought that a spell always comes at the end of a cast, but now I see that the metamagic of a sorcerer or bard occurs halfway through the actual spell's casting.
Exceptions for spontaneous metamagic aside, let's look at the casting times for spells, shall we?
There are spells that take an immediate or swift action to cast. Clearly, they don't need quickening. There are also spells that require standard actions to cast. All well and good, they definitely benefit from being quickened. Then there are spells that take 1 round to cast. You with me? There aren't any spells that take longer than a standard action to cast, but less than a full round. So it goes like this:
Immediate or swift---->Standard----->1 Round-----> Longer than a round
There are no spells that take a full-round action to cast other than those that have a casting time of 1 round.
If the devs wanted to leave out the spells that take 1 round to cast, they'd have simply said "you can't do this to spells that take longer than a standard action to cast" and be done with it.
Spells that have a casting time of 1 round might trigger at the end of casting rather than at the middle, but they don't take longer to cast than a full-round action. If they used up a swift on the following round, then they would. But they don't.
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Exceptions for spontaneous metamagic aside, let's look at the casting times for spells, shall we?
....
So it goes like this:Immediate or swift---->Standard----->1 Round-----> Longer than a round
There are no spells that take a full-round action to cast other than those that have a casting time of 1 round.
If the devs wanted to leave out the spells that take 1 round to cast, they'd have simply said "you can't do this to spells that take longer than a standard action to cast" and be done with it.
Spells that have a casting time of 1 round might trigger at the end of casting rather than at the middle, but they don't take longer to cast than a full-round action. If they used up a swift on the following round, then they would. But they don't.
Except that there are spontaneous metamagic spells.
Immediate, swift, quickened ----> standard---->full round (metamagic for spontaneous casters or spontaneous substitutions, such as cleric empowered cure)---> 1 round-----> 1 round + full round (spontaneous metamagic summon nature ally) -----> 2 or more rounds (lesser restoration at 3 rounds)......
A metamagic spont spell doesn't come into effect in the middle of the casting. A sorc casting metamagic magic missile fires that missile during his turn and then is done casting. The same sorc casting enlarge person casts all the way to the beginning of his next turn.
They take the same action. Action type <> casting time.
A casting time of 1 round and a casting time of a full-round action explicitly are not the same thing.
They don't resolve the same, but nevertheless they take the same action to cast.
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The rules are very clear. Casting a one round spell IS a Full Round action but the results of that spell don't come into play until the beginning of the spell caster's next turn.
I agree that the rules are unambiguous. I would dispute, however, that they are very clear. In normal parlance, there's no difference between something taking "1 minute" and "a full minute".
I agree that the rules are unambiguous. I would dispute, however, that they are very clear. In normal parlance, there's no difference between something taking "1 minute" and "a full minute".
The rules are very clear. Casting a one round spell IS a Full Round action but the results of that spell don't come into play until the beginning of the spell caster's next turn.
I don't find it confusing in the least. A full-round action is a well defined thing. Everyone gets them, everyone uses them. You get 1 full-round action per turn.
A round, however, isn't just your turn, it's everyone's turn. If a spell lasts 1 round, it doesn't expire at the end of your turn, it expires at the beginning of your next turn. Likewise, a spell with a casting time of 1 round isn't completed at the end of your turn it's completed at the beginning of your next turn.
My interpretation:
Full-round action spells and 1 round casting time spells use the same action. A 1 round casting time spell doesn't use up any extra actions. However, it takes more time. Rules that refer to action type treat them the same, rules that refer to time treat them differently.
The feat says this:
"so long as it has a casting time that is not more than 1 full-round action, without increasing the spell's casting time."
It refers to casting time, not casting action type. Thus, my interpretation is that you cannot quicken Enlarge Person.
Both spells take an amount of time devoted to casting of six seconds. A character can take six seconds of actions during his turn and before the next guy, but it's also true that six seconds pass between the beginning of turn 1 and the turn 2. In a turn-based world, the temporal mechanics are incoherent, so really either way can be justified.
Is one round really LONGER than a full-round action? It certainly is at the table, but in-world it's still six seconds. With one mage casting each type of spell each round, for a straight hour, they will both have time for precisely 600 castings, 600 swift actions, and 600 5-foot steps. The one casting full-round action casting time spells will not get any additional downtime, unless other people's turns are counted as distinct and separate time rather than an abstraction of simultaneous time. For that same hour on another guy's turn, the one casting full-round action spells is never casting, while the guy casting 1-round spells always is - it's clear that the one casting 1-round spells is casting at more points on a timeline than the one casting full-round action spells, but it's not a linear timeline - in a timespan of six seconds, each different initiative has its own distinct six seconds that happens "after" the previous initiative and "before" the next one. On this timeline, "every initiative's six-second turn" is longer than "just your six second turn", even though the time elapsed is still six seconds. But when the word "longer" is used referring to casting time, is it referring to in-game mechanics time or in-world seconds time?
Personally, unless I thought what you were pulling off was OP, I would allow it. But I think the RAW probably prohibits it, because "casting time" is an in-game mechanic thing rather than an in-world temporal thing.
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Personally I'd buy a .pdf of a 'rules compendium' if, unlike the WotC version, it actually answered all of these impasses. That's one reason I'd like Howie to make & maintain a list of these things.
Seconded -- Especially if they're somewhat ignoring the errata/FAQs in favour of new products and thus new revenue streams.
Well, since there are NPCs in published adventures (using pathfinder rules) who can cast quickened enlarge person, I'd allow PCs to do the same.
Is one round really LONGER than a full-round action?
I believe so, yes. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any time to do attacks of opportunity on your opponents turns.
While everything is abstract, I'd assume that your turn isn't exactly 6 seconds, but rather the moment of those 6 seconds where you get a chance to actually act, and not just dodge arrows/swords/whatever.
It is true that this doesn't make sense out of combat - you can cast as many full-round action spells as 1 round spells during an hour - but you can cast just as many immediate action spells too so that's really a wider issue than just this. Let's just say it's because it's magic and you have to catch the right waves to cast, and neither of those will occur more often than once every six seconds.
Well, since there are NPCs in published adventures (using pathfinder rules) who can cast quickened enlarge person, I'd allow PCs to do the same.
Can you give some examples?
Also keep in mind that APs sometimes are wrong (one had listed spring attack + vital strike as a tactic).I am not saying that the AP you are reffering to is wrong, i just want to look at it myself.
Looks like I'm in the minority on this one, but I think it can be quickened.
Enlarge Person cast time is "1 round". For this discussion I think we're getting bogged down in the less relevant but it doesn't occur til your next turn. That doesn't require any additional actions from the player, it's casting time is still 1 round...
Thus it meets the requirements for quicken...
If Quicken Spell was not designed to work with spells of a 1 round casting time, why even reference them in the rules text? To mess with us? Why not just say spells longer than a standard action can't be cast with ths feat?
1 Round Casting Time
You begin casting something with a "1 round" casting time on your turn in one round, and complete casting just before your initiative in the next round. You must "spend" your full round action in order to do this.
1 Full Round Action Casting Time
You begin and complete casting something with a "1 Full Round Action" casting time on your turn in the same round. You must "spend" your full round action in order to do this.
1 round is a length of time, not an action. It's simply telling you how long it takes to complete. Beginning on your turn and ending just before your next turn is longer than an instant (which even though something is a "full round action" to do, still takes only an instant- it just consumes all of your effort for the round.)
The "action" system is an abstract costing mechanic limiting how much you can do. You "spend" (or use) a full round action either way, but the span of time referred to as "1 round" is longer than "1 Full Round Action".
Yeah, action used and casting time are two different things.
You can only take actions on your turn, barring unique situations, so a 1 round casting time can only take up to a full round of actions.
However, the feat is limiting spells based on casting time, not the action used on your turn.
So a spell that takes a round to cast (not your turn's worth of actions, but the whole round of turns everyone has), cannot be quickened.
It's pretty clear cut. Just need to recognize the distinctions involved.
If Quicken Spell was not designed to work with spells of a 1 round casting time, why even reference them in the rules text? To mess with us? Why not just say spells longer than a standard action can't be cast with ths feat?
Quicken Spell doesn't reference 1 round casting time spells at all. It references full-round casting time spells. Like when a spontaneous caster applies a metamagic feat. Without that, sorcerers (and other spontaneous casters) couldn't cast quickened spells at all. The only change to Quicken Spell in PF was to allow spontaneous casters to use the feat at all.
Maybe the fix was badly worded, and maybe you can interpret the RAW either way, but I'm 87% certain that RAI is a simple fix to help sorcerers out a bit.
Aarrrggggg!!!!!!!!!!!
I can't decide if 1 round spells can be quickened or not, both parties have made good arguements.
Aarrrggggg!!!!!!!!!!!
I can't decide if 1 round spells can be quickened or not, both parties have made good arguements.
Allow 1 round spells to be quickened, but rule that their effect still doesn't come into play 'till the start of the caster's next turn, and that any damage taken before the next turn can make the spell fizzle. Somehow.
There, best of both worlds. ;)
Wow, I already changed my mind after posting in favor of it (which I since deleted).
I'm now in the camp of you cannot quicken a 1 round spell.
A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full-round action cannot be quickened.
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action ... When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the concentration from the current round to just before your turn in the next round (at least)
A spell with a 1 round casting time does take longer to cast than 1 full round. A spell with a full-round casting time (using spontaneous metamagic) completes the casting at the end of your turn, and could be subsequently quickened.
A spell with a 1 round casting time uses a full-round action, but completes after everyone else in combat takes a turn. If you take damage during that time, you need to make concentration checks, which means you are still casting beyond a full round, and therefore cannot be quickened, IMHO.
If casting a 1 round spell did not require concentration during all other combatants turns, then I'd rule otherwise.
To be fair, as a DM, and on a case-by-case basis, I might allow a 1 round casting time spell to be quickened to a 1 full round casting time (coming into effect at the end of the turn, but still taking all your actions for the round).
I'd also possibly allow multi-round spells to reduce their casting time by 1 round as well.
This gives a two significant advantages on getting a spell off:
1. You get the spell effect in quicker than before.
2. You deal with significantly less concentration checks attempting to disrupt the spell (or at least 1 less round of potential disruption).
Quicken Spell usually is used for a completely different reason: get more than one spell off in the round, or get more than one action in the round (for those full round action spells).
It's hard to gauge exactly how this would affect the game, hence the tentative case-by-case thing.
5th level spell to cast Enlarge Person without being disrupted. Yeah, I can go ahead with that. You are doing that instead of Slay Living or Breath of Life... seriously. Your loss, really.
5th level spell to cast Enlarge Person without being disrupted. Yeah, I can go ahead with that. You are doing that instead of Slay Living or Breath of Life... seriously. Your loss, really.
I think most quickened spells are done with a metamagic rod or a class ability. Too expensive otherwise, as you say.
If quickening a 1 round spell is allowed, then the best use is to use a Quickened Metamagic rod to ready an action to cast Silence in response to an enemy spellcaster casting a spell. If it has a verbal component and you cast at a point in space (ie not targeting him), it will auto-counter whatever he's casting. No save or SR.
Using spellcraft to identify a spell being cast does not require an action (not even a free action), so you could make it conditional on being a spell that has a verbal component and a spell you find worthwhile to counter.
That seems more powerful than a quickened enlarge person.
Also, there are no (so far as I can find in the spell db from the srd) full-round casting time spells. There's only 1 round casting times.
This ^ is an important note. I was convinced about the 1 round vs Full-Round argument, but it is predicated on the fact that spells exist that are "full round".
Otherewise quicken can only effect other metamagic'd standard action spells? Seems like a waste of a lot of spell slots.
If quickening a 1 round spell is allowed, then the best use is to use a Quickened Metamagic rod to ready an action to cast Silence in response to an enemy spellcaster casting a spell. If it has a verbal component and you cast at a point in space (ie not targeting him), it will auto-counter whatever he's casting. No save or SR.
What? I'm pretty sure you get a will save to negate silence even if you cast it on an area as it is always an area effect even if you "center" it on a creature... note the Will negates; See Text or None (object).
What? I'm pretty sure you get a will save to negate silence even if you cast it on an area as it is always an area effect even if you "center" it on a creature... note the Will negates; See Text or None (object).If quickening a 1 round spell is allowed, then the best use is to use a Quickened Metamagic rod to ready an action to cast Silence in response to an enemy spellcaster casting a spell. If it has a verbal component and you cast at a point in space (ie not targeting him), it will auto-counter whatever he's casting. No save or SR.
No if you don't target a unwilling creature there isn't a save.
Also, there are no (so far as I can find in the spell db from the srd) full-round casting time spells. There's only 1 round casting times.This ^ is an important note. I was convinced about the 1 round vs Full-Round argument, but it is predicated on the fact that spells exist that are "full round".
Otherewise quicken can only effect other metamagic'd standard action spells? Seems like a waste of a lot of spell slots.
There are only a small percentage of spells that aren't 1 standard action. Spontaneous casters cast these spells as full-round actions with other metamagic, which is why I think it reads the way it does.
In fact, if quickened metamagic could affect spells that have a casting time of 1 round or less, it would have been more straightforward to say that. Instead it says "full-round", which covers standard action, or spells already spontaneously affected by metamagic.
Re: Silence and spells
Looks like someone else already chimed in on that. No save or SR if you just happen to be in the area affected by silence. Awesome counterspell if it can be readied.
No if you don't target a unwilling creature there isn't a save.
What? I'm pretty sure you get a will save to negate silence even if you cast it on an area as it is always an area effect even if you "center" it on a creature... note the Will negates; See Text or None (object).If quickening a 1 round spell is allowed, then the best use is to use a Quickened Metamagic rod to ready an action to cast Silence in response to an enemy spellcaster casting a spell. If it has a verbal component and you cast at a point in space (ie not targeting him), it will auto-counter whatever he's casting. No save or SR.
Yeah, but it's not like you are screwed with no save. The guy can just step out of the relatively short area and not be silenced, so it's an easy counter (depending on environment).
However, that's the reason I (twice) said I'd only approve it on a case-by-case basis. I'm not sure if I'd ever let the metamagic rod work for this, since it bypasses the only real cost (spell slot level) with something PCs have a lot of (some gold to spend on a "per day use" item).
Also, there are no (so far as I can find in the spell db from the srd) full-round casting time spells. There's only 1 round casting times.This ^ is an important note. I was convinced about the 1 round vs Full-Round argument, but it is predicated on the fact that spells exist that are "full round".
Otherewise quicken can only effect other metamagic'd standard action spells? Seems like a waste of a lot of spell slots.
This was already covered, but a Quickened Spell cast by a spontaneous spellcaster is a full-round action. If it wasn't for the wording of Quicken, sorcerers still couldn't use the feat. That's the only reason for the change from 3.5. And if you really have to twist this much to make Quicken apply to 1 round cast time spells, it's a pretty good indication that this was not the intention
A spell with a casting time of 1 round constitutes the longest possible full round action. As such, it is indeed quickenable. It's not longer than a full round, because if it were, it'd take a piece of your next action, and it doesn't.
You are assuming casting time and action spent are the same thing. They aren't, and Quickened Metamagic is specifically calling out casting times, not the action used to cast the spell.
Seems pretty clear-cut:
Full-round action (spontaneous metamagic spell): Spend actions and spell is cast
1-round casting time: spend actions, but still casting until next turn (you can be interrupted after spending your full-round action). This is what makes it clear: you spend your action, but you still aren't done casting (as proven by the fact that you can be interrupted).
RAW: no. RAI: probably still no, unless a dev chimes in.
Yeah, but it's not like you are screwed with no save. The guy can just step out of the relatively short area and not be silenced, so it's an easy counter (depending on environment).
Not if Silence was cast as a readied action. To the best of my knowledge, you cannot start to cast a standard action spell, and move while you are casting it. That's different from casting a spell, and then moving to touch a target.
But, yes, the caster is free to cast outside of Silence next round by moving 20'.
However, that's the reason I (twice) said I'd only approve it on a case-by-case basis. I'm not sure if I'd ever let the metamagic rod work for this, since it bypasses the only real cost (spell slot level) with something PCs have a lot of (some gold to spend on a "per day use" item).
At that point, you might as well just disallow it altogether and keep the methods of quickening spells consistent. Feels odd that you could quicken with a rod or Metamagic Mastery Mage Armor, but not Summon Monster I. Plus, I can't see a player choosing to burn a 5th level slot on a 1st level spell, so I don't think this will ever come up in practice in that case.
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A spell with a casting time of 1 round constitutes the longest possible full round action. As such, it is indeed quickenable. It's not longer than a full round, because if it were, it'd take a piece of your next action, and it doesn't.You are assuming casting time and action spent are the same thing. They aren't, and Quickened Metamagic is specifically calling out casting times, not the action used to cast the spell.
I'm not assuming anything. I've thought about this issue a lot, not just in this discussion, and somewhere in my mail I have something like a two page examination of all the rules in question, along with various statements about full-round actions. This would all be back in the 3.5E days, so some of the discussion about action types is now gone, but suffice it to say, a full round action's supposed to consume all of your possible effort in a round, and casting a spell with a casting time of 1 round does exactly that.
People get too tied up in the turn order of a round, and forget that a combat round is a simulation of a whole bunch of things happening at the same time. Your character isn't standing around like a statue when it isn't their turn, unless they happen to be paralyzed or petrified.
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Also, there are no (so far as I can find in the spell db from the srd) full-round casting time spells. There's only 1 round casting times.This ^ is an important note. I was convinced about the 1 round vs Full-Round argument, but it is predicated on the fact that spells exist that are "full round".
The following spells have a casting time of a full-round: